Relationship with student

[stillafool]

I made a bit of a mistake today. My mother had an emergency and I had to visit her but had nobody to watch my son while I was gone so I asked the student to watch him. I just got back and told her we shouldn't have any contact with eachother besides class time, which she agreed to until I told her we should wait a year or more after graduation to see if we still want a relationship. She got angry with me and began telling me that I was using her to watch my son for free when I had errands and she was scared that I would get over her if we don't contact eachother for such a long period of time. If I could just ignore her then this would not be such an issue but I have to deal with seeing her every day. I would like to trust her but she was really angry and I am fearful that she will say something in the heat of the moment get back at me.

 

Why do you have her as your babysitter? You are begging for trouble. Stop all contact with her.

[Blade96]

I dissgree with anyone who says that one should not "make friends" with a teacher or professor. And here is why:

 

I was bullied all through grade school. As a result I quit in grade 10 and did not graduate. In a little over four years later when I was 21 I went to university. And I was scared. School in my mind was a dirty word. But was willing to do it because I wanted to study Russian. While in my Russian language program which lasted 4 years, I excelled in Russian and showed I had an ability with it, to learn it. My profs noticed and took me under their wing as a special student of theirs. I had a great professional friendship with my profs. Talked to them all the time and I always went to see them and show them things I had that were Russian and they also showed me things they had. I spent a lot of time with them. It was professionally, we did not know about each other personally (other than the time one of them broke his leg and I called him at his personal home to wish him the best, which he much appreciated) They taught me that school can be a fun wonderful place. One of my Russian profs was just 8 years older than me and he became like a brother to me. And because of them, I stayed in university and graduated in 2010 with my degree and a double major in History and Russian Language and Literature.

 

I had other profs too I was on close terms with, as friends. But my Language profs are by far the best. Even now my Russian prof still loves for me to drop by and see him. He cannot do enough for me - he is even going to write me a letter of recommendation because I want to apply to do a History Masters (I wanted to do a Russian one but they have none)

 

So I think teachers can be one of the greatest most powerful influences for a student. I did not become one of those starry eyed university newbs who have a crush on a prof. But Profs notice gifted students and if those students happened to be gifted in the subject they teach and love the subject - they want to mentor them, to give them the knowledge. That is what my profs did for me. And all of this is why I disagree when people say students and profs/teachers shouldn't become friends on the level of a mentorship.

 

Were there starry eyed students? Sure. Practically every single one of my Russian language classmates had a crush on our prof who was just 8 years older than me. And they were jealous that I was close to him (as I said he was like an older brother to me, I never saw him as a crush at all) He used to call on me a lot to answer questions because I knew a lot about Russia. I happen to know about starry eyed students because of my classmates and their actions. Often I was embarrassed for my poor prof lol!

 

But I digress. A close professional friendship can be the best thing that happened with a student in their lives. Even personal - A couple of profs have even helped me when I did have some problems, personally. And I do not know where I would be today without those profs and how they took me under their wings.

 

I do not believe Karen was wrong to notice this student and take her under her wing. Be her friend, mentor her, you could be the best thing that happened to her! But if feelings develop in the course of it, best thing to do is yes wait couple of years after she graduates, she becomes a full adult, is not in a power inbalance any longer and you 2 can then do what you like. I have a friend who married one of his former students, long ago, they are still together. The key here though is FORMER student. As in.... They waited. And so should you.

Edited December 17, 2013 by Blade96

[salparadise]

Sorry for not replying as often, Im a little busy. I spoke to her today and told her we shouldn't even speak until after graduation. She got upset because Im the only one she talks to so I decided that we would still talk but cool down on the flirting until she graduates.

 

I didn't read the whole thread, so pardon me if someone has said exactly the same thing...

 

Irrespective of ethical concerns, which I do believe in, you need to use some logic here to avoid the worst possible outcome. And that would be that you lose your job and are permanently barred from practicing your profession. You said the rumors are already circulating, so there is a real possibility that your contract will not be renewed. If you are "let go" under such circumstances the rumors will follow you, and you will not be able to get a recommendation. However, if you apply for another job while still employed they can't expect a recommendation from the current employer.

 

But if you stay in this job (with the rumors flying) and begin a relationship after the student graduates, the rumors will be confirmed in everyone's minds whether it's true or not. You will likely be terminated and banished from the profession.

 

So I think you need to make a move now, at the end of first semester and while you can legitimately seek a job without giving your current school as a reference. This also gets you away from the student, and maybe if you're lucky the rumors will fade away.

[bubbaganoosh]

After reading this thread and all the replies, I'm wondering if it was a gay man and a student if the responses would be as understanding as they are on this thread. I don't think so. I believe 99% of all the people replying would be lighting torches and hunting the guy down.

 

There is no excuse for you talking about any kind of relationship with a student. Your a grown woman, an educator, a mother and at your age should know right from wrong. You keep going like this and no doubt your butt will be in front of a judge and you'll deserve everything you get.

[salparadise]

I made a bit of a mistake today. My mother had an emergency and I had to visit her but had nobody to watch my son while I was gone so I asked the student to watch him. [...]

 

I would like to trust her but she was really angry and I am fearful that she will say something in the heat of the moment get back at me.

 

Damn, out of the frying pan and into the fire. Karen, you need to get control of yourself. You are in self-destruct mode. Seriously. After reading this I am doubtful that you're capable of salvaging this. You are letting emotions drive your behavior and setting rationality aside. You need to do the opposite, but I'm sure that us telling your that is not going to make much difference.

 

I feel for you and the difficult situation you're in, but you are violating all the boundaries and just digging yourself deeper. Might as well start thinking about what you could do for your next career.

[MissBee]

Lots of gay people have children, esp considering the fact that many engaged in hetero relationships before, as it was expected of them and some marry, have kids, etc. then later on are comfortable enough to embrace their true sexuality.

Edited December 17, 2013 by a LoveShack.org Moderator

[MidwestUSA]

I made a bit of a mistake today. My mother had an emergency and I had to visit her but had nobody to watch my son while I was gone so I asked the student to watch him.

 

I'm unclear how the student was in a position to be the most convenient one to help in this case. Was she already at your place?

[Karen875]

I'm unclear how the student was in a position to be the most convenient one to help in this case. Was she already at your place?

 

It was during school hours, all my friends have jobs that they can't leave and she could easily just sign herself out.

Edited December 17, 2013 by Karen875

[nescafe1982]

No, Karen, you need to respect the boundaries of your profession, immediately.

 

There's no "but I had no one to watch my kid!" or "But I think I'm in love!" You're a teacher. This is beyond confusing for your student, and yes: when she accused you of using her as a babysitter... it's because that's what you did: exploit a student with a crush for childcare.

 

You should not be having any interactions with this student outside of class. Period. I would not even discuss the matter with them at this point. You can only save this situation by immediately putting it right.... and allowing this student to hate you for it. It's their right, and it's their safety that you protect by doing it.

 

If you are concerned that this student will not get a fair evaluation grade-wise, or that she will have a difficult time continuing in your class, then it is your responsibility to report to your administration so she can be reassigned. But be prepared for what comes next if your administrators find anything you did as less than appropriate.

 

But this is your job. And it's your responsibility to carry on in a professional manner and not hurt the people under your charge. Now stop screwing around.

 

Edit to add: wait. You had this girl SIGN HERSELF OUT of class to care for your kid? God I hope you're a troll. Because if not, you need to be reported for your behavior.

[salparadise]

It was during school hours, all my friends have jobs that they can't leave and she could easily just sign herself out.

 

So what you're saying is that having the advantage of familiarity and influence, and seeing no ethical issues, you asked her to leave school to do you a personal favor?

 

You seem incredibly naive. I think your life is about to become very difficult.

[nescafe1982]

I dissgree with anyone who says that one should not "make friends" with a teacher or professor..

 

I hear what you're saying, but here's the thing, man. Professors and teachers can have SIGNIFICANT influence on the lives of their students. That's what makes this job so cool (I'm a professor, btw). BUT you weren't "friends" with your profs. The parameters of your relationships with them were firmly set, and while at times you might have felt "personal" with them, you were never in a position to be a true "peer." The interactions you describe in your post sound like mentoring... professional interactions beyond the classroom space to encourage a bright student into self-confidence and self-investment. They are within line of the normal role of a professor.

 

But those boundaries that distinguish a teacher from a student, the ones that create some personal distance, those are NEEDED by the student in order for healthy mentoring to happen. A professor who gets too chummy with his university students, and treats them too much like peers, will find that they work less, feel entitled to higher grades, and are more likely to argue and take the professor's constructive critiques personally. and that's in the best case scenario where nothing messy or unethical has occurred. Students need some distance built into the relationship. It's one of the most significant mandates of being an educator... it shows them respect and sets them up to shine.

 

What doesn't set them up to shine? Playing with their emotions, exploiting them for personal gain, and tearing them down. This particular thread is all the more horrifying because the OP describes the student as gay and starting to come into her sexuality. This twisted, F'ed up experience might be hitting her at a particularly tender moment in her life... and OP seems more worried about self-preservation than about doing what's right for the student.

 

So, maybe teachers need boundaries too. To protect our students from ourselves.

[Trimmer]

After reading this thread and all the replies, I'm wondering if it was a gay man and a student if the responses would be as understanding as they are on this thread. I don't think so. I believe 99% of all the people replying would be lighting torches and hunting the guy down.

I don't see a significant amount of "understanding" that you seem to be seeing. Almost everyone in this thread is against what she is doing.

 

I dissgree with anyone who says that one should not "make friends" with a teacher or professor. And here is why:

I won't devalue your experience, and I'm very glad for you that it turned out to be such a positive influence for you. However, just a few years difference between high school and college students is a huge factor, developmentally. Also, with college students, while there is still an inherent power imbalance, they are there voluntarily and are generally self-motivated, so this alters the power dynamic.

 

Conversely, at the high school level, between the younger age and earlier developmental level of the students, and the fact that they are compelled to attend, this casts the teachers in a more parental-type authority role (in loco parentis, the courts call it.)

 

Finally, you yourself assert that your college relationships were initiated - and remained - substantially as professional, academic relationships. It worked for all of you because they were NOT originated upon an element of romance or founded primarily upon a strong personal bond - the focus and purpose of these relationships were academic, and while a valuable personal bond may have emerged over time, this was secondary, and did not overshadow the academic focus. This worked because all parties involved were mature adults who made good decisions and maintained appropriate boundaries.

 

Translate that to a high-school setting where the students are never adults, often make immature, questionable decisions, and are still learning to figure out what an appropriate boundary is, and it becomes a very risky proposition for a teacher to establish close personal bonds without maintaining a very intentional professional distance. That's a hard needle to thread - it may be possible in certain cases, but in general it is much higher risk. And since the most concerning risk here is to the emotional and cognitive development of the student, the general rule of thumb should be to err on the side of not venturing outside of a clear, professional, academic relationship. The cost/benefit tradeoff at the high school level is just too risky.

Edited December 17, 2013 by Trimmer

[Zahara]

It was during school hours, all my friends have jobs that they can't leave and she could easily just sign herself out.

 

You had her get out of school to look after your kid?

[Trimmer]

I hear what you're saying, but here's the thing, man. Professors and teachers can have SIGNIFICANT influence on the lives of their students. That's what makes this job so cool (I'm a professor, btw). BUT you weren't "friends" with your profs. The parameters of your relationships with them were firmly set, and while at times you might have felt "personal" with them, you were never in a position to be a true "peer." The interactions you describe in your post sound like mentoring... professional interactions beyond the classroom space to encourage a bright student into self-confidence and self-investment. They are within line of the normal role of a professor.

Ah, thank you for introducing the mentor concept. I meant to mention this earlier, but it slipped my mind.

 

That's a good paradigm for threading the needle between a personal bond and an academic one. And it is possible to do (if still risky) even at the high-school level. But for it to work, it takes a very intentional approach, and a vigilance about boundaries, and especially in high school, this responsibility falls completely upon the teacher.

 

But those boundaries that distinguish a teacher from a student, the ones that create some personal distance, those are NEEDED by the student in order for healthy mentoring to happen. A professor who gets too chummy with his university students, and treats them too much like peers, will find that they work less, feel entitled to higher grades, and are more likely to argue and take the professor's constructive critiques personally. and that's in the best case scenario where nothing messy or unethical has occurred. Students need some distance built into the relationship. It's one of the most significant mandates of being an educator... it shows them respect and sets them up to shine.

 

What doesn't set them up to shine? Playing with their emotions, exploiting them for personal gain, and tearing them down. This particular thread is all the more horrifying because the OP describes the student as gay and starting to come into her sexuality. This twisted, F'ed up experience might be hitting her at a particularly tender moment in her life... and OP seems more worried about self-preservation than about doing what's right for the student.

 

So, maybe teachers need boundaries too. To protect our students from ourselves.

I completely agree with all of this - once again, especially your focus on guarding the well-being and development of the student, a focus which I'm afraid the OP barely acknowledges, and seems unable to support with her own choices and behaviors.

[salparadise]

I don't see a significant amount of "understanding" that you seem to be seeing. Almost everyone in this thread is against what she is doing.

 

What you're not seeing is her being crucified. People are critical of the behavior, but sympathetic to the person at the same time. Of course there hasn't been any sexual contact thus far, only the admission that she sees it as inevitable, and is heading toward it as new boundaries are being crossed. You can sense the relative tolerance via her nonchalance with regard to describing the situation.

[jimloveslips]

I hope you're a troll...if not, you need to be reported for your behavior.

 

I agree.

Either way we are enabling this person by replying, whether troll or psychopath.

[Trimmer]

It was during school hours, all my friends have jobs that they can't leave and she could easily just sign herself out.

So you're concerned about the rumors that are flying around. And now you've created a situation where teacher Karen had to leave school on an "emergency", and there's a corresponding record of your student signing herself out over the very same time period.

 

You are continuing to make things worse for yourself.

[Trimmer]

What you're not seeing is her being crucified. People are critical of the behavior, but sympathetic to the person at the same time. Of course there hasn't been any sexual contact thus far, only the admission that she sees it as inevitable, and is heading toward it as new boundaries are being crossed. You can sense the relative tolerance via her nonchalance with regard to describing the situation.

But crucifixion is contrary to the Community Guidelines...

 

So which is the wrong approach? To be critical but to engage her in an attempt to guide her to the right path? (which does sound more in keeping with the point of this forum and the Community Guidelines.) Or to crucify her?

 

Is the point that we should ignore the community guidelines? In other words, since we can imagine posters would be mean and ugly to that other guy on an imaginary thread, then we should be consistent and be mean and ugly to this OP as well?

 

I guess I just don't see a lot of utility in advocating that we should lower the level of discourse here to match the low level that we might expect to find on another thread that doesn't even exist.

 

I will continue to be as critical as I can of her inappropriate behavior, while attempting to follow the community guidelines, which are to post to engage. Just because there's a possibility there would be an angry mob on another thread, I don't see the purpose of discussing why we should whip up one on this thread.

[salparadise]

I guess I just don't see a lot of utility in advocating that we should lower the level of discourse here to match the low level that we might expect...

 

I'm not advocating that either. I'm just observing that up to this point people have displayed a great deal of tolerance. That seems to be changing after OP's latest post about asking the student to sign out of school to take care of her kid. I was giving her the benefit of the doubt too, but now wondering if this really is a troll just making stuff up.

[Eivuwan]

It was during school hours, all my friends have jobs that they can't leave and she could easily just sign herself out.

 

Wow are you sacrificing her education to help you out?! It really does sound like you're using her. If getting fired and having a ruined reputation isn't enough of a motivator for you then I wonder what is.

[Trimmer]

I'm not advocating that either. I'm just observing that up to this point people have displayed a great deal of tolerance. That seems to be changing after OP's latest post about asking the student to sign out of school to take care of her kid. I was giving her the benefit of the doubt too, but now wondering if this really is a troll just making stuff up.

I hear you, but I generally have a high capacity for believing that some people will take marginal situations and then continue to compound them with bad decisions and make them even worse.

 

The OP must be around 22 (I think she said she's 5 years older than her high-school student), so not even finished with her own cognitive and emotional neural wiring yet, and she has a son from what she described as a time when she was very young and confused. I completely believe that this could be a real person who, at age 22-ish, could still be having serious trouble with interpersonal dynamics, boundaries, and making rational choices about career, relationships, and life.

[nescafe1982]

I will only add that if this OP is 22 or 23, she is likely in her first year on the job. A lot about her story doesn't add up (why isn't she being properly supervised, for example), but on the chance that her story is real, I think it's better to give her real advice than to ignore her because her behavior is so radically unethical.

 

OP. If you're still reading, I'd like to know: what are you going to do to fix this situation?

[Karen875]

I know signing her out wasn't a good idea but in all honesty its the last week of school and she is way ahead of her class, meaning she wasn't doing much besides helping the teacher with small errands and the students who needed clarification with their work. I know, still shouldn't of asked her but everyone else I could ask would face some kind of consequence for leaving and she wouldn't. I could also see why she would feel used, I promised her that I we can talk only in the case of me helping her with homework but with at least one other student and the door open. I also promised her that I will contact her after graduation every now and again only to see how she is holding up. She will be going to a university further away so she can't show up on my doorstep if she wants to see me.

[nescafe1982]

I know signing her out wasn't a good idea but in all honesty its the last week of school and she is way ahead of her class, meaning she wasn't doing much besides helping the teacher with small errands and the students who needed clarification with their work. I know, still shouldn't of asked her but everyone else I could ask would face some kind of consequence for leaving and she wouldn't. I could also see why she would feel used, I promised her that I we can talk only in the case of me helping her with homework but with at least one other student and the door open. I also promised her that I will contact her after graduation every now and again only to see how she is holding up. She will be going to a university further away so she can't show up on my doorstep if she wants to see me.

 

You've got to be kidding me.

 

1) You had no business even asking her to sign out. There was no way this was acceptable. Your issue with not having childcare is your problem. You made it hers, using your status as an authority figure to exploit her. That was unfair.

 

2) No consequences for her? You mean, aside from leading her into thinking she could cultivate an emotional connection? Aside from feeling angry, confused, and upset about being used in this way? Aside from those consequences?

 

Stop making excuses for yourself. Own what you did wrong, and be absolutely certain that you don't hurt a student again.

 

What makes you think that any contact between you and this student (like "homework help") is okay? There's no bargaining at this point. The only way to fix a situation this out of hand is to go no contact. Anything less than that and you're selling the kid short.

[writergal]

I know signing her out wasn't a good idea but in all honesty its the last week of school and she is way ahead of her class, meaning she wasn't doing much besides helping the teacher with small errands and the students who needed clarification with their work. I know, still shouldn't of asked her but everyone else I could ask would face some kind of consequence for leaving and she wouldn't. I could also see why she would feel used, I promised her that I we can talk only in the case of me helping her with homework but with at least one other student and the door open. I also promised her that I will contact her after graduation every now and again only to see how she is holding up. She will be going to a university further away so she can't show up on my doorstep if she wants to see me.

 

If I was this student's parent, I would report you to the school to see that you were fired. Clearly, you are old enough (23) to know better, but too young and immature to do the right thing (cut off contact with the student).

 

You know what you're doing is wrong but you don't care. Shame on you. You should not be a teacher because you have no respect for young adults. I'd go so far as to categorize you as a child predator. All you care about is fulfilling your own selfish needs and desires. You really don't seem to care about the impact your behavior already has had on this vulnerable young adult. Your refusal to do the right thing (draw a clear line between your behavior as "teacher,") with your student shows me that you are not a safe person for young adults to be around, and that you should resign from your teaching job before your actions get you fired (and they will if you continue on the path you're currently on).

 

People like you make me sick.

Edited December 17, 2013 by writergal