Relationship with student

[Karen875]

You are all right I suppose. I will try to convince her without hurting her, I need to have self control.

[Trimmer]

You are all right I suppose. I will try to convince her without hurting her, I need to have self control.

I just hope you can convince yourself.

 

And in the future, the self control has to come in much earlier in the process. You are a teacher, in a position of power and authority over children who are still developing cognitively and emotionally. This needs to be built into the structure of any relationship you have with a student right from the start. It needs to be a teacher-student relationship only.

 

You are young yourself - what, around 22? So your own cognitive wiring is not really even completed yet. Until you get more experience as a teacher and it becomes automatic, you will need to be very intentional about your role and the boundaries you maintain with your students, not just drifting along, subject to emotional whims and then trying to figure out how to fix inappropriate situations once they've developed.

 

You aren't just an almost-same-aged peer who happens to stand in front of the class. As a teacher, you are expected - your society and community trust you - to have some standards of conduct and professionalism, because we entrust our children to you during their developmental years.

[Mrlonelyone]

I had an affair with a female teacher when I was in high school. The power dynamics of such a relationship make it inherently unethical so DO NOT DO IT.

 

 

As a person who is also queer (I'm kinda Gender Queer. Think of people like David Bowie or Alexandra Billings or Ellen... people who ignore gender norms...) the fact you are a lesbian will be a factor in how this is viewed. If you were a woman (especially white in the US) having an affair with a young man (especially a young black man in the US) you would not be viewed as a villain of any kind. It is sort of assumed that young black men are so sexually taboo and tempting yet not as threatening as a fully grown black male.

 

 

Yes the politics of race and sexuality would make this an ugly one.

 

 

Just imagine Bill O'Riley, Don Lemon, and Rachel Maddow having their various commentaries about you on cable news... then think of that happening to you.

[Mrlonelyone]

firstly, this is about a teacher-student relationship,

& both are close in age,

so your analogy has nothing whatever to do with this situation.

no relevance

 

 

secondly,

mary kay letourneau was held to account

for her crimes, & rightly so.

 

 

this business about women getting off easy,

while men are vilified

 

is a complete & utter canard.

 

j

 

 

You are forgetting the OP is a lesbian.

 

 

Different people are treated differently when it comes to student teacher sex.

 

 

White heterosexual men who have sex with white heterosexual high school age young women, even if they are 18 are always severely punished. More so if the man is a minority or the young lady is very young.

 

 

There are ton's of webpages commenting on this very fact all over the web.

 

 

Given the above, it stands to reason that if the OP, a lesbian, had a lesbian relationship with a student over or under 18 the media and public and govt. would land on her like a ton of bricks. They may well make her out to be as bad as the coach at Penn State Univ.

 

 

 

 

By the by, Mary Kay Laternou was given probation at first and then after a couple of years in jail she married her victim. A teacher who was a Tennsee Titans cheer leader also married her victim after no jail time.

[Mrlonelyone]

how is this related?

how is a man in his late 20s a 'boy'?

 

are you trying to insinuate into this discussion

the double standard applied to women who date younger men?

 

why?

 

your agenda is showing.

 

 

j

 

 

When it comes to sex and sexuality, in the United States of America at least it's all about double standards. Along lines of race, gender, class, and sexual orientation.

 

 

A straight white woman having a young black man is tolerated in this country. Just as a grown white man having a grown black women is tolerated. At the same time a grown black man having a white woman of any age is seen as a taboo. Then there is just about everything concerning queer people from relationships, to housing, to employment to marriage.

 

 

OP just think of what Bill O'Riely, Rachel Maddow, and Don Lemon (and Rush Limbaugh, and .... millions on the internet) would have to say if this became a national story. Imagine satelite trucks on your front lawn. Imagine being spoofed on SNL....

[MalachiX]

I had an affair with a female teacher when I was in high school. The power dynamics of such a relationship make it inherently unethical so DO NOT DO IT.

 

 

As a person who is also queer (I'm kinda Gender Queer. Think of people like David Bowie or Alexandra Billings or Ellen... people who ignore gender norms...) the fact you are a lesbian will be a factor in how this is viewed. If you were a woman (especially white in the US) having an affair with a young man (especially a young black man in the US) you would not be viewed as a villain of any kind. It is sort of assumed that young black men are so sexually taboo and tempting yet not as threatening as a fully grown black male.

 

 

Yes the politics of race and sexuality would make this an ugly one.

 

 

Just imagine Bill O'Riley, Don Lemon, and Rachel Maddow having their various commentaries about you on cable news... then think of that happening to you.

 

I think it's a mistake to bring sexual orientation into this. Every case I've heard of a black young man having an affair with a white female teacher (when he's a minor); has resulted in legal action.

 

Beyond that, I think worrying about sexual orientation misses the point. It's about a power dynamic which is simply unfair to the student.

 

The whole point of progress is that we look at these things as relationships regaurdless of race or gender. When you start worrying about such things, it lets the ethics of it take a back seat. I've actually heard people say, "it's not the same thing because you don't know how hard it is for a queer person to find someone they click with in this society." Equality means we act as though these things make no difference, even if the morons on Fox News (and some other morons in law enforcement) may disagree.

 

As a hetero dude, I may not known how challenging it is for a queer person to find someone whom they can go out with. I do however know how challenging it can be for a number of shy or socially awkward men and women to find a partner. I've seen awkward men grow up and then sleep with their students. They're able to land someone who they NEVER would have been able to otherwise because they are in a position of power over them. This is wrong for a straight guy and it's wrong for a lesbian woman.

 

I realize I've gotten off on a tangent but I really think the whole point of equality as that we DON'T start quibbling over stuff like this. I have great empathy for how difficult it must be to find someone when there are so many people openly hostile to your sexual orientation. Nevertheless, I have tons of gay friends who don't want to be treated any differently than anyone else, and that includes the standards they are held to.

[RogerWallace111]

It's fun to nitpick, and I know he worded it badly, but to deny that what MrLonelyOne's getting at is generally true is silly. It's barely relative, so whatever, but obviously- in the U.S.- males are more readily vilified than women, people of color are more readily vilified than white ones, and people of different sexual orientations are generally less sympathized with. C'mon, son.

[CarrieT]

I was a high school student who was sexually attracted to a teacher. And I acted upon those desires. At the time (I was 17), I believed that I was mature enough to know what I was doing.

 

Years later I realized how taken advantage of I really was. Regardless of any age difference, there is an inherent degree of trust between a teacher and a student and by adding a sexual component to that relationship, that sense of trust is destroyed.

 

It is WRONG, WRONG, WRONG.

 

OP, it is your duty as an instructor to guide your students into adulthood, regardless of your feelings and desires. Do you understand that?

[regine_phalange]

Look, I know how you feel.

 

There was a mutual attraction with a student when I was a teaching assistant (we had a very small age gap and he was an adult). Never flirted or anything, but there was always this weird vibe, and he was very nervous around me. Very sweet really. Sometimes we crave things we can't have. I understand that this girl tickles your imagination and fantasies. But the thing is, it is too great a risk to take. No one wants to ruin their career. I'd say stop being flirty, let the girl and yourself move on (if she makes another relationship the rumours about you two will be proved as false), and if later in life she keeps thinking about you, she will come to you.

[Blade96]

or at least if you really like this girl and she likes you back, then for the love of a saint bernard wait til she is out of that school for good, she is out of school altogether, wait til she is an adult and can do what she likes, and is totally away from that school so you have NO power over her at all. Then nobody can say anything about it, you two can do as you wish then. But until then - listen to these forum dudes and dudettes - they know what they are talking about.

[bubbaganoosh]

Comes down to this. Your a teacher so teach. It doesn't matter if you gay or straight, students are off limits period.

 

Your an adult and you should know this. This is why I always believed that adult should be 21 rather than 18. 18 year olds want to do the same thing as a 21 year old does but are impatient to wait their turn and anyone who was 18 at one time know this but the fact of the matter is most aren't ready and all your doing is IMO taking advantage. Please stop before she gets hurt

[Trimmer]

You are forgetting the OP is a lesbian.

 

Different people are treated differently when it comes to student teacher sex.

I strongly and respectfully suggest that the exploration of this subject might be great on another thread dedicated to that topic, but that it is off-topic and a disservice to the discussion here in this thread.

 

In fact, if our belief is that the double-standard is wrong, then forgetting the OP is a lesbian is exactly what we should do in giving her advice.

 

I maintain that the inappropriateness of what she is doing is not related to her gender or sexual orientation, but is an inherent property of a relationship between a power/authority holder and a subordinate still in their adolescent developmental years.

 

The fact that there may be different standards and different local community reactions depending on regional culture, and on the races, genders, and sexual orientations of the parties involved may be a fact of modern life, but it doesn't change my opinion that the relationship the OP has described is inappropriate between any high school teacher and a student, irrespective of race, gender, and sexual orientation, for the reasons I've argued further up the thread.

 

(And I apologize for peripherally bringing in the "double standard" speak in this thread in the first place. I brought up this counter-argument with the intention of blunting it before it was even raised. My only intent was to say, essentially, you may get a bit less flak based on your gender, but that doesn't justify or excuse your behavior, nor does it lessen the potential damaging developmental impact on the student. In other words, gender and sexual orientation are irrelevant to the most important focal points of the emotional risk to the student, and the professional responsibility expected of the teacher. )

Edited December 17, 2013 by Trimmer

[MissBee]

I understand where you all are coming from and I would of said the same thing before this but now that I am actually in this situation I can't help but feel unable to NOT have a relationship with her.

 

Well...you seem to know what you want to do already.

 

The problem isn't even so much having a relationship with her after graduation. The problem is that there are rumors NOW...so even if you did have a relationship later, it would confirm the rumors that you had an existing relationship while she was your student AND it also means you were already acting in inappropriate ways so as to arouse suspicion among people.

 

If you MUST have a relationship with her, I'd resign and look for a new job where your personal life has not already been mixed up with work and where your professionalism isn't already under scrutiny.It is not illegal to date a student when they are no longer your student, but it definitely looks bad for you when you start dating a student that people already rumored you were messing with while she was underaged and your student.

 

Next time you need to be more responsible and have better boundaries. Although, to be honest, sometimes I don't think young teachers are the best for high schoolers. I imagine you are around 22, and sometimes I think enough distance isn't there for the teacher to be that much wiser and mature, and this seems like an example of it.

[ktya]

Hello, highschool teacher here with a bit of an issue. There is a student in my class who seemed a little weird and doesn't have many friends so I befriended her by eating lunch with her sometimes and helping her with homework. I soon found that she was not weird at all but just... different. We began to hit it off and became really good friends and since we are both lesbians she usually comes to me for relationship advice. The other day she came to my class after school crying about her girlfriend cheating on her and I was so angry I shocked myself, but I was also happy in a way because she was now single.

 

 

Nothing personal but I think it would be fantastic if you could be the first lesbian woman charged and convicted of coaching and luring a minor from a position of authority.

 

Hyperfeminists have made it a sex offense for a male teacher to gently touch a female student on the arm and you are sitting with her eating lunch and drooling over having some steamy lesbian action and getting into these conversations with her. At least it would be one more peice of evidence that men arent the only ones who can be tempted by the young and it would become just a little bit more of a human and societal issue than a broad brush painting of all males that work with kids and teenagers as potential rapists.

 

I understand that your feelings are probably confusing and genuine but from my perspective I think we need more legal precedent setting cases for the statistics books.

[nescafe1982]

I didn't read this whole thread, just the first OP and a couple early posts. but as an educator myself, I find everything you did with this young woman inappropriate:

 

1) It is not your place to "Befriend" a student, even one that is struggling. Students need firm boundaries with their teachers. You are an authority figure, not a peer. That was your first mistake.

 

2) If the student needed a safe space to discuss her sexuality, that should have been done NOT one on one. And with a trained professional... like a counselor. Gay or straight, you are NOT the authority on matters pertaining to a student's wellbeing and mental health.

 

3) Do not date a student. It's not love... it's predation. You would be using your position of authority over the student for personal gain, and probably screwing with her head in the meantime. You seem to think that YOU can handle the relationship that will result after this student's graduation. But whether you can handle isn't the issue here. It's whether the student can handle it... and they can't. You are an authority figure. To capitalize on your position for purposes of romantic entanglement is abuse. And you will be fired if it comes to light.

 

That's it for now, I guess. I gather that you're new at the education game if you're considering something so bush-league as getting involved with a kid from your classes. I hope you either find your way out of this romantic entanglement, or out of the profession before you hurt someone.

[Karen875]

I made a bit of a mistake today. My mother had an emergency and I had to visit her but had nobody to watch my son while I was gone so I asked the student to watch him. I just got back and told her we shouldn't have any contact with eachother besides class time, which she agreed to until I told her we should wait a year or more after graduation to see if we still want a relationship. She got angry with me and began telling me that I was using her to watch my son for free when I had errands and she was scared that I would get over her if we don't contact eachother for such a long period of time. If I could just ignore her then this would not be such an issue but I have to deal with seeing her every day. I would like to trust her but she was really angry and I am fearful that she will say something in the heat of the moment get back at me.

[Elliotte]

This is just painful to read. You are destroying your career. You're talking about having a relationship with an underage high school student. There is no gray area here, what you're doing is unethical by any stretch of the imagination. And you have a kid of your own! Imagine your kid going to high school and ending up getting together with a teacher, could you honestly be fine with that?

 

At this point it seems like we're talking to a brick wall. One day OP will stop replying to this thread and the next update we will have on this is another sad article about a teacher fired and/or jailed over getting with a student.

[MalachiX]

I made a bit of a mistake today. My mother had an emergency and I had to visit her but had nobody to watch my son while I was gone so I asked the student to watch him. I just got back and told her we shouldn't have any contact with eachother besides class time, which she agreed to until I told her we should wait a year or more after graduation to see if we still want a relationship. She got angry with me and began telling me that I was using her to watch my son for free when I had errands and she was scared that I would get over her if we don't contact eachother for such a long period of time. If I could just ignore her then this would not be such an issue but I have to deal with seeing her every day. I would like to trust her but she was really angry and I am fearful that she will say something in the heat of the moment get back at me.

 

 

I'm starting to wonder if you're a real person if you're actually some angry hetero guy trying to give gay women a bad name (kinda like the poster who seemed so happy to read this thread).

 

If after all of this, you actually suggested to the girl that you wait and date after graduation, I really hope this is all made up. I really hope nobody, after hearing all that's been said here, would actually tell the minor, "hey, I think we should cut contact now while it's dangerous for me but let's keep the option open for later when I can't get in trouble for sleeping with you but while you're still young/fresh enough for me to still have this power over you."

[Karen875]

I'm starting to wonder if you're a real person if you're actually some angry hetero guy trying to give gay women a bad name (kinda like the poster who seemed so happy to read this thread).

 

If after all of this, you actually suggested to the girl that you wait and date after graduation, I really hope this is all made up. I really hope nobody, after hearing all that's been said here, would actually tell the minor, "hey, I think we should cut contact now while it's dangerous for me but let's keep the option open for later when I can't get in trouble for sleeping with you but while you're still young/fresh enough for me to still have this power over you."

 

It has nothing to do with power for me. I have feelings for her due to her personality and how we click, not because she is a student. I say that we should wait in case she is attracted to me simply because I am teacher. If we both want to have a relationship afterwards and connect outside of a teacher-student bond then that would be great.

Edited December 17, 2013 by Karen875

[MalachiX]

It has nothing to do with power for me. I have feelings for her due to her personality and how we click, not because she is a student. I say that we should wait in case she is attracted to me simply because I am teacher. If we both want to have a relationship afterwards and connect outside of a teacher-student bond then that would be great.

 

Telling a student that you plan to perhaps date them a year after graduation is beyond an abuse of power. Even in a year or so you're still going to have a huge sway over her.

 

Psychologists immediately lose their license if they begin a relationship with a former patient within two years of the termination of therapy. Even after two years, the pyschologist is required to prove that a relationship with this former patient did not begin in therapy and that they in no way exploited this patient. Suggesting a relationship after therapy ends (as you just have); would not only lead to immediate loss of a license but also would open you up to a lawsuit from the patient.

[Trimmer]

I made a bit of a mistake today. My mother had an emergency and I had to visit her but had nobody to watch my son while I was gone so I asked the student to watch him. I just got back and told her we shouldn't have any contact with eachother besides class time, which she agreed to until I told her we should wait a year or more after graduation to see if we still want a relationship.

Oh my, so you took a situation that was already precarious, and gave it another shove in the wrong direction. I think calling that "a bit of a mistake" is a bit of an understatement.

 

Can you see how she perceived this interaction? You gave her two gifts: you asked her for a favor, and then you accepted that favor from her. From her immature, subordinate position, she saw this as an overture from you, an invitation to come closer, and she was probably delighted because she saw this as an increase in intimacy which you initiated.

 

Then your next action immediately following was to reject her.

 

It is not hard to imagine that this would have created instability:

She got angry with me and began telling me that I was using her to watch my son for free when I had errands and she was scared that I would get over her if we don't contact eachother for such a long period of time.

Yes, indeed - you pumped her up, and then you tore her down. Her response was fear, and fear commonly manifests as anger.

 

If I could just ignore her then this would not be such an issue but I have to deal with seeing her every day. I would like to trust her but she was really angry and I am fearful that she will say something in the heat of the moment get back at me.

Before you asked her to watch your child, did you have any sense of "maybe this is a bad idea"? Or were you pretty much just thinking, "I need..."? That's a serious question, and I mean it respectfully; I'm trying to gauge your empathy and your ability to project the likely outcomes of your actions, and whether you are able to factor in things external to yourself, or only your own internal needs and responses.

 

Because in this case, it wasn't at all hard to predict - from the outside anyway - that given your need to cool things down, asking her to watch your child would be a really bad idea. What it did was to increase her feeling that you were getting closer, and that is NOT the direction you want this relationship to go.

 

It has nothing to do with power for me. I have feelings for her due to her personality and how we click, not because she is a student.

Arrgh - Karen, the power issue isn't about how you feel about having power in the relationship. It is about the inherent power mismatch between the two of you because of your defined roles, and how that can be damaging to her in this time of adolescent cognitive and emotional development.

 

Whether or not you feel it, whether or not you act on it, there is a power imbalance between the two of you. You are the teacher, and she is the student; these are your roles and it does affect her and how she responds to your overtures, and it will affect her development.

 

And frankly, you are already seeing signs of destabilization. Do you know how she will react to you pulling away? Do you really have any feeling for what it did to her that you "invited her in" more personally, just before you pushed her away? Can you count on her to react and respond rationally to further disappointments from you?

 

Again, I mean this respectfully, but what is your education and training as a teacher? Do you have an education degree? Were there not some elements of your studies in education that dealt with issues of teacher-student relationships, interpersonal dynamics, professional responsibility, appropriate boundaries, etc.?

[MalachiX]

Part of me has empathy for your situation as I know what it's like to feel like you havn't clicked with anyone for a long time and then, somewhat annoyingly, click with a student (though, in my case, i was a Teaching Assistant and it wouldn't have been statutory rape; also I was younger). What's upsetting about your post is that you've clearly encouraged this relationship and continue to be try to push it in a direction where it will lead to something while you're still this girl's teacher.

 

It's not like you felt a connection and avoided it then you just happened to run into her years later. You've been actively grooming this girl for a relationship while she's still a minor and you're still in a position of power but just want to wait until you think you'll be safe from consequences. That's wrong. Plain and simple.

[Karen875]

I knew before hand that it would be a bad idea to ask her to watch my son but there was no one else that could come on such short notice. I also knew that it was a bad time to tell her that I wanted to break it off for a while. I didn't want to tell her at that time but I had no choice, if I told her afterwards I would feel as if I prolonged it and I would of left her with false hope over a long period of time. I am unable to sleep as she is continuously texting me and I am trying to explain this to her without hurting her even more. I know that I learned about how to deal with a situation like this but I never thought I would actually end up in this position.

[Karen875]

My son is from a relationship I had when I was VERY young and confused.

Edited December 17, 2013 by a LoveShack.org Moderator

[Eivuwan]

damn that's scary' date=' i guess i no longer dream of becoming a therapist[/quote']

 

If you can't see why that kind of behavior is seriously unethical, then you shouldn't be a therapist.