FairyTail Posted January 4, 2005 Posted January 4, 2005 Disclaimer: Ungodly long. I can't get this out of my mind -- I need opinions. Back Story: (It all started when I approached my beloved about his porn viewing. At first, I was quite offended when I found out that he watched porn. I could barely sleep and I cried all night because of my insecurity (and yes, this sounds like a dramatic thing to do, but at the point in the relationship that we were at, very understandable). I told him that it would do quite a masterful job of displeasing me if he were to view porn in the future, yet being a rational being, I know he could do it and I would never find out. Eventually, I calmed down and partically forgot about the situation, that is, until I found all sorts of porn hidden away in his recycle bin on his computer. At a certain point, I told him I had changed my mind, and I was alright with the usage of porn.) Point: A few days ago, I was browsing my college's website, trying to find when classes were to begin for the semester, when the mouse on my beloved's computer decided to screw up, as it usually does. I was attempting to open a new window in the browser when the small arrow floated over to the "Favorites" panel. I could now see the abundance of porn links he had saved, and memorized one of them. Trying to be calm and understanding, I returned to my apartment and clicked through the site. Later on, I sat him down and asked him: "Why do you look at porn?" He gave me a reasonable explanation, then asked me why I asked him. I responded with something similar to "Well, I was just scared that you'd rather see those women having sex, or I'm not doing something right, or you might think those girls are prettier than me. You don't think they're prettier than me, right?" THAT'S when everything exploded. He said "Wakannai..." which is Japanese for "I don't know," and at first, all I could do was stare at him with my eyes wide open. After further exploration of his mind, he stated that yes, some were indeed, prettier than me. I was so hurt...so incredibly hurt. He added that physical appearance means nothing to him (therefore, he wouldn't watch the porn for their looks, anyway), and that if you added physical appearance and personality togther, I'd be the most beautiful person on Earth, he would rather have sex with me than any of them, and he wouldn't trade me in for someone else. Here's the thing -- I have NEVER seen a porn actress who I believe to be prettier than me. This may sound horribly self-loving, but I think that they are all revolting, terrible little creatures, even when you subtract the knowledge of their so-called "career." And it plays in my mind, over and over and over...how can my boyfriend say that ANY of those wretched little whores are more beautiful -- by ANY MEANS -- than me? Is it o.k. for a boyfriend to think, let alone say that their girlfriend isn't the most stunning creature they have ever laid their eyes on? Help me out, please! Give me opinions, suggestions, criticisms, compliments, chastisements, enlightenments, Devil's-Advocat-isms -- ANY sort of input will be appreciated and recieved gracefully.
Barby Posted January 4, 2005 Posted January 4, 2005 1_) he was just being honest (can't get too mad for that he could have lied) 2_) I would have been hurt as well...he should have just not gone "there" at all. So honestly I don't know what to tell you...if that is you in your picture then you're not ugly, maybe he just finds these women more attractive because they're "un-obtainable" (Most likely unless he met one and paid them or something)
alphamale Posted January 4, 2005 Posted January 4, 2005 Originally posted by FairyTail Here's the thing -- I have NEVER seen a porn actress who I believe to be prettier than me. This may sound horribly self-loving, I don't know man....but Jenna Jameson is pretty damn HOT!!
LucreziaBorgia Posted January 4, 2005 Posted January 4, 2005 Originally posted by FairyTail ...how can my boyfriend say that ANY of those wretched little whores are more beautiful -- by ANY MEANS -- than me? Is it o.k. for a boyfriend to think, let alone say that their girlfriend isn't the most stunning creature they have ever laid their eyes on? He said it because you pushed him to say it. He probably would not have said it otherwise. Maybe he does find them more aesthetically pleasing than you - but you know what? Those thoughts of objective comparative beauty are the private thoughts that people generally don't share out of tact. He was likely angry and defensive and said it not necessarily just because he actually thought that, but because he knew it would hurt you. You backed him into a corner, and he immediately knifed you in your most sensitive spot: your self esteem. Sometimes the truth hurts. Badly. Yes, it is ok for a boyfriend to objectively think that other women are more attractive than his girlfriend. It would be stupendously naive and ridiculous to think that they don't. There would be no need for Maxim, Playboy - or any media portrayal of idealized females, otherwise. Objectively, a man can find another woman attractive over another - but subjectively - when he is in love, his woman is the most beautiful thing to him. Never, ever confuse the objective with the subjective. You'll eat yourself alive with that. Saying it, now - that's another story. If a guy knows that his girlfriend has problems with her self esteem, then its best that he keep his opinions to himself when it comes to comparative beauty.
XNemesisX Posted January 4, 2005 Posted January 4, 2005 Well I am just going to be flat out honest here... I think your boyfriend is a HUGE jerk. WTF?! Personally I would be revolted if I thought my boyfriend was watching porn like this. It sounds like he has an addiction to this stuff. Not good. You would be surprised how harmful porn can be to relationships. I know you love him, and you don't want to give him an ultimatum...but....geez. I broke up with my (now) ex once over going to a strip club...so you know how I feel about that stuff. I am not very understanding of someone I am with wanting to break their neck looking at other women in an innappropriate way. Well I know what I would do in this situation and being understanding isn't one of them. I would tell him "stop watching the f*cking disgusting sh*t or I am out of here to find someone else who isn't a sleazy perv." Even if you don't want to, break up with him (or act like you are going to anyway). Make him think it is over the porn...and then see where he stands. I'm sure he will feel like a major loser once he's sitting at home masturbating to some repulsive porn over being with the woman he loves. See if that doesn't make him see things differently. If you don't take a stand to this behavior you will be cursed with it forevermore. He needs to see that there are consequences. He needs to respect your wishes. Unless you show him that he shouldn't do that and MEAN it - the behavior will never end. Good luck and keep us updated!
RowanRavyn Posted January 4, 2005 Posted January 4, 2005 Not every man who looks at porn is addicted. (though yes, some are) Most just see it as a non-issue.
dyermaker Posted January 4, 2005 Posted January 4, 2005 Originally posted by YX32Nemesis It sounds like he has an addiction to this stuff. No it does NOT! Addiction is a serious issue, not a strategic card to be played when you can't manipulate someone into conforming to your sexual standards through whining. There's not enough information here to even begin to suggest addiction--and, even if there was--you're hardly qualified to diagnose one.
moimeme Posted January 4, 2005 Posted January 4, 2005 He added that physical appearance means nothing to him (therefore, he wouldn't watch the porn for their looks, anyway), and that if you added physical appearance and personality togther, I'd be the most beautiful person on Earth, he would rather have sex with me than any of them, and he wouldn't trade me in for someone else. I cannot believe that anyone, having heard the above, would then go on to the following utterly unreasonable rant: Here's the thing -- I have NEVER seen a porn actress who I believe to be prettier than me. Well I have. And so what? You cannot possibly be the most attractive human female on the planet even if you yourself think so. And whether or not you are, READ THE FIRST PARAGRAPH. Is it o.k. for a boyfriend to think, let alone say that their girlfriend isn't the most stunning creature they have ever laid their eyes on? Of course it is unless you want a delusional man. Again, READ THE FIRST DAMN PARAGRAPH. There's many women who'd love to hear such a statement out of their man. Take it to the bank. Go kiss him until he's dizzy and then do him right. You have a gem there. He has just said basically that if you get old and wrinkly or disfigured or something, he'll still love you. If that isn't good enough for you, you don't deserve the guy. Pass him on to someone who will be glad to have someone so devoted.
munkeygirl Posted January 4, 2005 Posted January 4, 2005 Guys look at porn. Lots of girls do, too. It has absolutely nothing to do with his relationship with you. I guarantee he doesn't compare you to what he sees on his computer screen: you are a real, breathing woman he can play with and love. It should not make you insecure that he is attracted to other women and fantasizes about them. There is nothing wrong with fantasizing about other people. Don't you ever fantasize about other men or women? It is perfectly healthy and normal. What is not healthy is trying to control your man in his private space. He needs to have his own space. Leave the poor guy alone or you will ruin your relationship.
dyermaker Posted January 4, 2005 Posted January 4, 2005 You should encourage him to be less honest in the future.
Mr Spock Posted January 4, 2005 Posted January 4, 2005 That's like saying "Do these pants make my ass look fat?" Those kinds of questions are unfair...to anyone. It's not the pants, anyways, we all know that. Relax.
Author FairyTail Posted January 4, 2005 Author Posted January 4, 2005 The reply. Wow...so much input. I do believe I struck a chord in some of you. But, honestly, I don't believe that some of you actually understood my statement as thoroughly as I would have liked. Barby -- Thanks for your honesty and your input, alike. True, I'm glad that he didn't lie because honesty is very important to me. I guess I was taken aback by his answer, as it was not the standard answer I was used to. As for the reason why he thinks so...he just says it's "just looks." Alphamale -- If you're into big-boobed-blondes, I suppose. I prefer Bettie Page. LucreziaBorgia -- Well, I really didn't corner him, I actually approached him very calmly. I only became angry/devastated after he said the "prettier" thing. And I have no problems with my self-esteem...it is just a different relationship practice than I am used to. My belief is: The more you love a person, the more physically beautiful they become to you. He's just different. Thank you for your input on the "subjective/objective" -- that's a very good way of viewing it. YX32Nemesis -- He is quite far from addicted, but I appreciate your girl-support. But, I feel the same way about porn and strippers -- well, almost. They disgust me. Moimeme -- Please, calm down -- really, I'm not the crazy b*tch I think you think I am. You say I am not the most attractive woman on the planet. Then, who, praytell, is? The answer would be impossible, seeing that beauty is something that cannot be fact nor fiction unless it is in one's mind. I believe that I am the most beautiful girl in the world...to me (whether or not the general public chooses to believe that, I don't care) and porno actresses are just gross. I know it sounds very self-involved to say I'm most beautiful to me, but I'm stuck with myself for the rest of my life and have been through a lot with myself, and it took a long time to realize the importance of loving myself. If no one else thinks I'm beautiful, I always will. But, that isn't the point. I do understand that my beloved has a very good personality with not just loving me for my looks, but one must admit that what he said is a bit of a blow to the ego. The problem is that I just have never had a boyfriend who has told me otherwise about my looks. So, I wanted to know: Is this standard practice and I was just missing it? Munkeygirl -- Well, he says that he doesn't fantasize about them (he told me the reason why he watches it, and I do believe he's not lying after his brutal honesty). And I'm not trying to control him -- he can watch the porn -- as I said previously, I was just trying to understand why and be alright with it. And no, I don't fantasize about other people. But, thank you for your support, I really appreciate it. Dyermaker -- Not less honest, just more tactful, if you will. MrSpock -- Ah, yes, but you don't always look fat in the pants. I must apologize -- in the original post, I sounded more like a whiney girlfriend and less like a rational human being. But, seeing the slight snappiness and backhandedness in most of your posts, I can see I'm just maybe wanting something out of myself and out of my boyfriend that may just not be logical. Thanks for your input, and if you want, keep it coming.
dyermaker Posted January 4, 2005 Posted January 4, 2005 Originally posted by FairyTail My belief is: The more you love a person, the more physically beautiful they become to you. He's just different. He doesn't sound different. It sounds like you're splitting hairs over semantics. He called you the most beautiful person on Earth, made it clear that there's no one he'd rather be with, and reiterated that sexually, there's no one else he'd rather have. I think he misunderstood the question, perhaps it's out of character for you to be upset about these things, so he figured it would be okay to be honest When you asked him 'Who's the fairest of them all', he probably figured your relationship was mature enough for him to tell the truth. I think your outburst will teach him to be a little less honest in the future--which is unfortunate. The answer would be impossible, seeing that beauty is something that cannot be fact nor fiction unless it is in one's mind. There is a science of attraction, it's not all subjective. porno actresses are just gross. . Chances are, there are plenty of porn stars that are prettier than you. They have to keep in great shape, and they're heavily made up for the filming proccess. A lot of people try to characterize sex workers as being trashy Pamela Anderson types, but the reality of this is that many of them aren't. It's pretty Victorian to demonize the entire industry as 'gross'. The problem is that I just have never had a boyfriend who has told me otherwise about my looks. So, I wanted to know: Is this standard practice and I was just missing it? Most guys will tell you what you want to hear, *especially* if you're good looking. I kind of admire your boyfriend. He's stupid, but admirable.
chica Posted January 4, 2005 Posted January 4, 2005 Fairytail: You are allowed to want your beloved to cherish you and see you as the most beautiful woman in the world. You certainly look more attractive than most porn actors I have seen! It's pretty Victorian to demonize the entire industry as 'gross'. what crap! I'm with you Fairytail It sounds to me as though you reacted very normally to the situation. We all know that a large number of people get into porn, and there will always be the people who don't, or who are offended by it. There is nothing wrong with feeling a little insecure or indignant or hurt once you discovered he had been looking at other women naked. It IS a blow to the ego. But some of the others who replied are right - at least he was honest. I have encountered lies when tackling this sort of thing, and trust me, it just makes you feel as though your worst fears are confirmed. It's best that he was honest, even if it was hard to hear. Be grateful that you have someone you can communicate openly with and who obviously wants you to be the (main) woman in his life. If the porn isn't an issue for you, it wont be hard to work out. good luck, you sound very well-adjusted to me
Adunaphel Posted January 4, 2005 Posted January 4, 2005 I've been in your situation - the only difference is that my bf not only told me that there of course are porn stars prettier than me and that "I have to get used to the idea that there are *always* going to be prettier women than me", but he also said that he'd swap me for a prettier woman "if she had a nice personality". (to be fair, I *asked* him if he'd swap me for a porn-star so you can say I tricked him into it ) He said "Wakannai..." which is Japanese for "I don't know," and at first, all I could do was stare at him with my eyes wide open. After further exploration of his mind, he stated that yes, some were indeed, prettier than me. I was so hurt...so incredibly hurt. He added that physical appearance means nothing to him (therefore, he wouldn't watch the porn for their looks, anyway), and that if you added physical appearance and personality togther, I'd be the most beautiful person on Earth, he would rather have sex with me than any of them, and he wouldn't trade me in for someone else. Not entirely thrilling as an answer, but I guess it's a nicer answer than many women would get. (Damn, I wish I had gotten it, even if I would not have been completely thrilled either). If he had told you out of the blue(without you asking him) that many porn stars are prettier than you, he'd be a jerk. But you asked. So he was just being honest. What answer would have left you happy? The answer I would have personally *loved* to get, is something along the line of "you are the prettiest one to me, btw, I'm stopping to look at porn because it upsets you, and I don't need it that much anyway now that I have a gf like you". (yes, I *do* know it's a very unrealistic answer ). Anyway, I would have been quite content with the same answer you got, possibly without the "there are prettier women" part. Figure out the answer you would have liked to hear, sit down your bf, have a talk with him and explain to him what kind of answer you would like to receive in the future in a similar situation. (you choose how to call it, asking him to be less honest or asking him to be more tactful. ) But would any answer have *really* left you happy, knowing that whatever he would have said, he'd keep looking at porn anyway? Be really honest with yourself here! What if he had said that you are the most beautiful woman on earth? Would you be happy now? Or would you now be thinking "why he told me such bullsh*t like that I'm the prettiest woman on the planet if he's still looking at *other* women?" Damn. Do I hate porn.
innocntlisy1981 Posted January 4, 2005 Posted January 4, 2005 yes its totally disgusting and u know what tha funny thing about it is these jerks actaully think they are really that hot.do u know out of hundreds of pics they take of these women they onl;y pic a few and then alter them to hide all there bad spots.sorry i had a boyfriend like this and it was real upsetting to me especially when he started saying things like wanna pose for a pic or u shave and have a drag strip men are pigs!!!
LucreziaBorgia Posted January 4, 2005 Posted January 4, 2005 It is very, VERY unrealistic to think that being in a relationship with a guy will automatically and magically make him forget that there are other women on the planet. Guys like looking at attractive females, whether they are in committed monogamous relationships or not. That's a fact. It doesn't mean they want to bang them, or trade you in for them - they are just nice to look at - and in the case of porn, it just helps things along during masturbation.
moimeme Posted January 4, 2005 Posted January 4, 2005 I believe that I am the most beautiful girl in the world...to me Amazing. Well, congratulations on that. Now, if you're interested in reality, no you're not because that which constitutes beauty is different to each person. Apparently, your opinion of beauty has yourself as the apex, however to expect that all humans share your belief is delusional. And I'm astonished that every other bf you have had has asserted that. Clearly, they determined that it was important to you to be 'the fairest one of all' and therefore told you what you wanted to hear. The fact of the matter is that even if there were such a thing as a single most beautiful person on the planet and you were it, that would not necessarily render you worthy of anyone's love, since personality is, to most people, far more important than looks. And for my money, this little quirk you have of needing to be known as the most beautiful human on the planet would put a pretty big dent in the 'personality' qualifications.
RowanRavyn Posted January 4, 2005 Posted January 4, 2005 The "sexual entertainment" industry has been around for a long time, and its not going anywhere any TIME soon. Its nice to have a good self-image, but I think you were fishing for an answer, and you didn't get what you wanted. With porn I don't think its always the total package. I think sometimes its an expression from this one, a pose from that one, the curve of a breast from this other one, to make a whole person out of it would create the Bride of Frankenstien.
Author FairyTail Posted January 4, 2005 Author Posted January 4, 2005 I have a class in 15 minutes, so I will respond to everyone else later. This one is to Moimeme. I STILL do not think that you are quite understanding, and I thought I made it clear: I think -- TO ME -- I am the most beautiful person on Earth. TO EVERYONE ELSE -- is a different story. So, I don't think that EVERYONE or MY BOYFRIEND must think so, as well. I think I am beautiful because I am ME. I thought that everyone DID think the same way -- that IF you love someone, THEY become the most beautiful person on Earth. So, hearing that from my boyfriend was really painful. But, it is a lesson learned -- people can and do separate the physical from the emotional. I just thought I'd clear that up.
FolderWife Posted January 4, 2005 Posted January 4, 2005 Seeing as how she's a woman and he's a man, this sounds like a miscommunication to me. What she was REALLY asking was, "Am I more attractive than those girls." He answered that with a resounding yes...he doesn't want them, he wants her. She was probably raise up like I was, to believe that no matter how ugly you are, your huband will always think you are the most beautiful woman in the world...if he loves you. My dad always said that my mom was the most beautiful woman in the world. My husband, however, is honest, so I know better than to ask such a thing. One time I asked him to rate my hotness on a scale of one to ten. He mulled over it for a while, so I mistakenly thought he was going to make a big deal out of thinking about it, and then say something like 12! He said, "Between 8 and 9" Oh, that broke my heart. 10 being the highest, the first thing I thought was that he thought someone out there rated higher than me. But then I found out later that he rated Carmen Electra and Pamela Anderson at a 9. So I rated right up there with them I told him that I WANTED him to say ten! Men don't understand women, or their needs. I recommend dumping him, because if you're like me, you're not going to be able to accept porn in your relationship ESPECIALLY now that he's put his foot in his mouth. So don't put yourself through living the rest of your life in a relationship that makes you feel like you aren't good enough. Even if he says he'll give up porn, he won't, and you'll spend the rest of your days stumbling upon it, ang being heartbroken all over again. End it now. Don't try to work it out, just end it. Save yourself now. There are men out there who don't like porn, so find one of them, and be with them.
Mustard Bomb Posted January 4, 2005 Posted January 4, 2005 FairyTail, I was thinking about Monday's book recommendation when read your thread, actually. (the Men are form Mars one) It seems pretty clear you just have different discourse expectations than your boyfriend; it interests me as a kind of 'language situation.' Your prose in general is sort of romanticized and dramatic, which is legitimate. To be clear, I'm not putting that way of communicating down at all. But it does seem to come with expectations of an ideal response, which may continue to hurt you and your relationships. In your situation, you may have asked the question with this is mind: Here is chance for us to become even closer by him gallantly affirming his devotion and admiration to me, after which I will affirm it back to him! Here is what he may have percieved: What is my actual aesthetic response? He's a bit socially clumsy for not already realizing what was expected, but I put it to you that did not communicate directly enough, either. It would have been more straightforward for you to say: Your interest in porn, while I understand it intellectually, sometimes makes me feel insecure. It would help me if you told me I was much more beautiful than the porn women. You don't have to lie, per se, but base your response on my inner and outer beauty and my emotional needs, rather than a socially determined and relative standard of beauty. Part of really loving another person is learning how to communicate effectively, rather than ideally. Just a thought, anyway.
Huntr777 Posted January 4, 2005 Posted January 4, 2005 Beauty is in the eye of the beholder, we’ve all heard that. But what is it really? The answer varies from person to person to person. If you’re asking my opinion (which I’m not sure if anybody did..heheheh), I find that beauty is a combination of inside and outside, if you know what I mean. I’ve met beautiful girls who were ugly on the inside, and visa versa. Now when it comes to porno, in my opinion most of them look kind of skanky (especially these days where they are all trying to be Pamela Anderson clones). Honestly, one of the few porno stars who I found devastatingly attractive was Hyapatia Lee (before she got her implants and cut her hair). Hunter
blind_otter Posted January 4, 2005 Posted January 4, 2005 I hung out with my friend on new years - she is a stripper, and we went out with a bunch of girls from her work. Hey, I'm hot. I know I am. But those girls are GOREGOUS. I mean, beauty is in the eye of the beholder, but psych research suggests that there are, across cultures, certain commonalities among features that indicate beautry. Fertility indicators are a biggie - and an hourglass figure, perky breasts, smooth skin, clear complexion, silky, thick hair, and symmetrical facial features are those indicators. Women who display those qualities tend to produce healthier children. It's just an evolutionary thing. So, the strippers were gorg. But most of them were obnoxious, overtly sexual (humping each other on teh dance floor), and shallowly hedonistic (I've never seen so much "personal use" cocaine in my life. I hate coke.) I like porn myself, and I see girls who are prettier AND uglier than me. It's not about that, though, it's just a thing. You watch to get off. You don't envision waking up on Sundays and snuggling in bed with them. You don't fantasize about, say, what your kids would look like with said porn star. That said, it's great to think you are the most beautiful person. I'm too depressive to be able to think like that. I have a beautiful body and face, and I'm confident in myself, but not everyone thinks the way I do, and I accept that. Diversity of opinion makes relationships lively and intellectually stimulating. Try having a debate with yourself. I hate it when I'm talking to someone who agrees with every opinion I have.
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