15 year marriage at crossroads

December 12, 2013

OP,

Could it be that your man feels ''outmanned'' by you?

That he feels less attractive, less dominant, less masculine than you?

This happened with my ex and me.

When men feel demasculined by their spouses they retract sexually..

it's possible. i'm quite strong and i'd say dominant in our marriage. but i've been that way always... and he's always said that he prefers strong women.

i have tried to take the back seat regarding a lot of things, in the end i'm the one taking the lead anyway as he forgets or just doesn't follow up.

December 12, 2013

Quote:

Originally Posted by beatcuff View Post

a good step would have been to ask him why he flinched.

My thought as well.

i did. his response was that he didn't :/

December 12, 2013

At what point does one stop fighting for things to change? Lillyfree, it may be that the EA really messed your H up...psychologically. If it did, I don't understand how he could be happy/content with the way things are. At some level, he may be stuck...as in stuck between wanting to stay M and not believing in your M anymore.

Sounds contradictory? Yes. But many people stay M for various reasons especially when it has been a long one like yours. The most you can do is hope that he does go to IC and that in a fixed time frame (which only you can decide), he begins to express his feelings whether good or bad.

If he doesn't go to IC, then it is quite plausible that at your 20th anniversary you will still be grappling with the same issues. You are saying you don't want that. Since you seem to have been clear with him, give him a deadline. Once that time is passed, leave or ask him to leave. It may take facing a divorce to wake him up to the fact that he needs to be present one way or the other in your M.

i understand that he might not be over it. and i don't know what to do anymore... i've been completely transparent, initiated talking about it, said that i wanted to go to counselling... he seemed over it really, and our relationship has actually improved immediately after my EA. in the sense that we talked to each other, he was open about the way he felt, the physical/affection side of things wasn't there but i wasn't going to push it for obvious reasons. thought it would come when he's ready. so, physical has remained the way it has been for years, while there was overall improvement in our interactions. so i thought we were doing well and improving.

December 12, 2013

I'm sorry you're feeling down about your marriage right now, Lillyfree. I've heard marriages have these "seasons," if you will. I've also heard that the folks who have stuck things out and gotten counsel are much closer and more in love than before! It's always worth getting good, healthy counsel. I'll pray that you guys find someone who can help you through this valley - and for your marriage as a whole. Don't give up, friend. Cheers

thank you huckleberry, that's a very kind post.

i just want him to be happy. i know that everything else will come once he's there.

December 12, 2013

My bad! I missed where you said you were involved in an EA. That falls under both a relationship with unresolved hurt and anger and neglect and it also falls under outside sexual source. In this case it just happens to have been you getting needs met outside the marriage. It's highly unlikely that your affair did not damage his desire and esteem for you even if he says that he forgives you and says that he is past it.

You may think it is behind you and in the past but it does not sound like it is for him.

By saying you are wanting him to get counseling and for him to his $hit together you are putting it all on him. I understand that you want to see some effort from him and want him to step up to the plate but this is a dynamic that has been created by the both of you and both of you are going to have to work at fixing it .......if it even can be fixed.

You both need to get into joint MC. this is for a number of reasons. One is so that you can lay all this out and get it out in the open and let him and the counselor know what is at stake and know the degree and the seriousness of your satisfaction.

Your husband may not be hearing you and may not be grasping the seriousness of the situation. When you talk to him, it may just seem like whining and bitching and background noise to him. If your counselor sticks his finger in your husband's face and tells him he needs to wake up and smell the roses, he may actually do it.

And also your husband and you as well probably still have some ongoing resentment and hurt and anger over your affair. There is likely some unresolved baggage surrounding that and it's probably festered to the point it requires professional counseling to get it resolved.

You can't just look at this as your husbands issue. You have dirt and blood on your hands as well and it will take both of you facing up to and dealing with your issues to fix it.

thank you for your replies oldshirt.

i've asked him to go to MC straight after the EA. he agreed and said to leave it to him to organise, which he never did.

i understand how much of a blow to him it was. i understand the hurt he must have experienced, i've been cheated on prior to meeting him and my father had a long-term A which devastated my whole family. if the roles were reversed it would take me a long time to heal.

however, the intimacy issue has been a constant for years prior to my EA. as i said in one of the replies above, our relationship has overall improved due to the A as we communicate a lot better. everything else stayed the same.

December 12, 2013

it's possible. i'm quite strong and i'd say dominant in our marriage. but i've been that way always... and he's always said that he prefers strong women.
i have tried to take the back seat regarding a lot of things, in the end i'm the one taking the lead anyway as he forgets or just doesn't follow up.

This may also be more of a problem than either of you are realizing. This is going to sound very sexist in this day and age but some things go way back before the time of political correctness and new age thinking.

Women have a hard time feeling attraction and desire for men that they don't respect and admire and it's real hard for women to respect and admire men that they see as passive and lazy and not taking the bull by the horns and taking care of business. women simply don't see passive and overly-layed back men as virile, masculine and sexy.

Conversely men often see a woman who is more intense, assertive and proactive as them as nagging, impatient and mother-like and normal healthy men do not see their mothers as sexy.

I know that your primary complaint here is that your husband doesn't seem to be attracted to you or giving you the love and affection and passion that you want. I don't want to play Jr Shrink here but is there a chance that you are projecting your lack of respect and attraction to him on to him and thinking that it is his lack of attraction to you that is bothering you????

In otherwords you may have lost attraction for him a long long time ago due to his passiveness and lack of action and follow-through. This would also explain your affair and why you would have found another man attractive and desirable.

With your lack of attraction and his lack of assertion and masculine energy you just slipped into the roles and comforts of being roommates.

If you are a lot more dominant and assertive than him, he just may no longer have the giblets to try to initiate anything sexual with you and no longer makes any effort to woo and seduce you. 40 years ago this was termed a castrating wife. I'm not even sure if there is a contemporary term anymore.

I've recommended these books a number of times over the last couple weeks but I think the books, "The Mindful Attraction Plan," and "The Married Man Sexlife Primer" both by Athol Kay may be of benefit to you. They are primarily aimed at men who have lost their balls and have become too timid and domesticated but I think if you were to read them you will identify with many of the topics being discussed.

The challenge will be getting your husband to read them and actually take the actions needed to get back your respect and admiration as a man and as a lover that you see as sexy and virile.

There is also a website with blogs by Athol Kay and discussion forums where people discuss these kinds of issues. The site is called Married Man Sexlife dot com. It is geared towards men trying to get back their wives attraction and desire but there is a section devoted to women in exactly your situation. Many of those women have also ended up there after some kind of event such as having an EA/PA with other men due to lack of attraction to their husbands.

Check out the books and the website but I do suggest that you both enter MC together as a couple. I think your issues go deeper that what a couple books and some advice from strangers on the internet can fix.

December 12, 2013

This may also be more of a problem than either of you are realizing. This is going to sound very sexist in this day and age but some things go way back before the time of political correctness and new age thinking.

Women have a hard time feeling attraction and desire for men that they don't respect and admire and it's real hard for women to respect and admire men that they see as passive and lazy and not taking the bull by the horns and taking care of business. women simply don't see passive and overly-layed back men as virile, masculine and sexy.

Conversely men often see a woman who is more intense, assertive and proactive as them as nagging, impatient and mother-like and normal healthy men do not see their mothers as sexy.

I know that your primary complaint here is that your husband doesn't seem to be attracted to you or giving you the love and affection and passion that you want. I don't want to play Jr Shrink here but is there a chance that you are projecting your lack of respect and attraction to him on to him and thinking that it is his lack of attraction to you that is bothering you????

In otherwords you may have lost attraction for him a long long time ago due to his passiveness and lack of action and follow-through. This would also explain your affair and why you would have found another man attractive and desirable.

With your lack of attraction and his lack of assertion and masculine energy you just slipped into the roles and comforts of being roommates.

If you are a lot more dominant and assertive than him, he just may no longer have the giblets to try to initiate anything sexual with you and no longer makes any effort to woo and seduce you. 40 years ago this was termed a castrating wife. I'm not even sure if there is a contemporary term anymore.

I've recommended these books a number of times over the last couple weeks but I think the books, "The Mindful Attraction Plan," and "The Married Man Sexlife Primer" both by Athol Kay may be of benefit to you. They are primarily aimed at men who have lost their balls and have become too timid and domesticated but I think if you were to read them you will identify with many of the topics being discussed.

The challenge will be getting your husband to read them and actually take the actions needed to get back your respect and admiration as a man and as a lover that you see as sexy and virile.

There is also a website with blogs by Athol Kay and discussion forums where people discuss these kinds of issues. The site is called Married Man Sexlife dot com. It is geared towards men trying to get back their wives attraction and desire but there is a section devoted to women in exactly your situation. Many of those women have also ended up there after some kind of event such as having an EA/PA with other men due to lack of attraction to their husbands.

Check out the books and the website but I do suggest that you both enter MC together as a couple. I think your issues go deeper that what a couple books and some advice from strangers on the internet can fix.

yes. OM was definitely an alpha. a messed up, narcissistic a-hole but an alpha one.

i've never consciously considered my husband a beta. i have however been frustrated over and over with his lack of assertiveness and drive.

thank you for recommending the reading, i know how deep in the mess we are but it can all help, can't it.

December 12, 2013

i've never consciously considered my husband a beta. i have however been frustrated over and over with his lack of assertiveness and drive.

.

It doesn't matter if you consciously think someone is alpha or beta, only what your instinctive libido thinks. and many times it thinks the opposite of what your rational brain is telling you.

And just for definition purposes, what you see as lack of assertiveness and drive isn't what you are thinking is beta, you are seeing it as weakness and people aren't attracted to people they think are weak or inept.

And I take it you've already read some books or websites of that nature. Not many normal everyday people use the terms alpha and beta in normal conversation.

December 12, 2013

It doesn't matter if you consciously think someone is alpha or beta, only what your instinctive libido thinks. and many times it thinks the opposite of what your rational brain is telling you.

And just for definition purposes, what you see as lack of assertiveness and drive isn't what you are thinking is beta, you are seeing it as weakness and people aren't attracted to people they think are weak or inept.

And I take it you've already read some books or websites of that nature. Not many normal everyday people use the terms alpha and beta in normal conversation.

yes, i enjoy reading about psychology and philosophy. i have come across those terms before and i'm aware of how to recognise the type.

while it was very easy to realise OM was alpha, i've never tried to classify my H as either. he was always... just him.

December 12, 2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by beatcuff View Post
a good step would have been to ask him why he flinched.

i did. his response was that he didn't :/

It may be a good place for him to start in his counseling... To recognize how he feels when he feels it - and then to learn to express his feelings to you.

Do you think he feels "safe" to express how he's feeling when he's with you?

December 12, 2013

It may be a good place for him to start in his counseling... To recognize how he feels when he feels it - and then to learn to express his feelings to you.

Do you think he feels "safe" to express how he's feeling when he's with you?

no, i know he doesn't. he's always been like that, from when we first met. he's been trying really hard to verbalise his thought and feelings since my EA though.

December 12, 2013

I am going to come across a little harsh here, but I think you are off point on the issues.

You stepped outside the marriage rather than trying to fix a 5 yr issue. The MC should have started long before you ever engaged in a EA. You soiled the bed and now you need to straighten it up.

If you know your husband tends to let things go...then take the bull by the horns and set the MC up yourself. You are being passive aggressive at this point. Notice how you think you have done all the work being transparent etc.

Look....you either want this marriage to work or you don't. But sitting back waiting for him to make a move hasn't worked for the past 5 yrs, so why do you think it will work now?

I understand that it has been a little over a year, but I will tell you that it doesn't leave his mind. And that any issue in the sexual arena that you experience prior to Dday....is made worse. You betrayed him emotional and sexually (even if only in thought) and that is a huge blow to get over. You have killed what was left of his self esteem.

My point is that you should set up MC and quit laying it all on him.

December 12, 2013

Just so you know....my husband also lets things lapse and I realized long ago that if I want it done...I have to do it. Otherwise I just get angry and resentful.

December 12, 2013

no, i know he doesn't. he's always been like that, from when we first met. he's been trying really hard to verbalise his thought and feelings since my EA though.

What can you change about yourself that would help him feel safe with you?

December 13, 2013

I am going to come across a little harsh here, but I think you are off point on the issues.

You stepped outside the marriage rather than trying to fix a 5 yr issue. The MC should have started long before you ever engaged in a EA. You soiled the bed and now you need to straighten it up.

If you know your husband tends to let things go...then take the bull by the horns and set the MC up yourself. You are being passive aggressive at this point. Notice how you think you have done all the work being transparent etc.

Look....you either want this marriage to work or you don't. But sitting back waiting for him to make a move hasn't worked for the past 5 yrs, so why do you think it will work now?

I understand that it has been a little over a year, but I will tell you that it doesn't leave his mind. And that any issue in the sexual arena that you experience prior to Dday....is made worse. You betrayed him emotional and sexually (even if only in thought) and that is a huge blow to get over. You have killed what was left of his self esteem.

My point is that you should set up MC and quit laying it all on him.

yes, MC is definitely going to happen.

i appreciate your response and i am taking into account what has happened to you.

had i posted here without disclosing the EA, i believe everyone would be outraged at my husband's behaviour and a lot would be advising me to separate - i've seen it before in other threads.

yet, my EA negates everything that he has/hasn't done FOR YEARS, any efforts i might have made since. sorry, but that's bullsh*t.

Just so you know....my husband also lets things lapse and I realized long ago that if I want it done...I have to do it. Otherwise I just get angry and resentful.

well, no. if you are willing to just go ahead and do it anyway, props to you. what i get is 'i'll do it, leave it with me' and it just doesn't get done, sometimes with serious consequences. i am more than capable to take care of things, but he needs to grow up as he's approaching 40. i have two children and need a partner, not another baby.

December 13, 2013

yes, MC is definitely going to happen.

i appreciate your response and i am taking into account what has happened to you.
had i posted here without disclosing the EA, i believe everyone would be outraged at my husband's behaviour and a lot would be advising me to separate - i've seen it before in other threads.
yet, my EA negates everything that he has/hasn't done FOR YEARS, any efforts i might have made since. sorry, but that's bullsh*t.

I am not saying that your EA negates the past. What I am saying is that you tried taking the easy way out. I told you it would be a little harsh. But you need to realize that you are MARRIED to him and know what his personality he has. Take it or leave.

And just so you know....I wouldn't have been outrage, I would have asked you what steps are you BOTH planning on taking to correct the issue. And an affair isn't one of them. What you had were problems that are now compounded by your EA. And complaining about them is not going to fix it.

well, no. if you are willing to just go ahead and do it anyway, props to you. what i get is 'i'll do it, leave it with me' and it just doesn't get done, sometimes with serious consequences.

And you sitting back letting the serious consequences to happen is passive aggressive behavior. If you wanted a dependable adult...then you should have married one. (That goes for me too) But burying your head with "he said he would" does not get things accomplished or fixed.

i am more than capable to take care of things, but he needs to grow up as he's approaching 40. i have two children and need a partner, not another baby.

I am sure we all think that from time to time. But I think it shows a lot of what you truly think of him.....and I bet my life he knows it.

On another note....please tell me some good qualities about your husband.

December 13, 2013

From Wikipedia - It is important to distinguish between an emotional affair, a healthy friendship that does not risk the present relationship, and signs of a failing relationship that have nothing to do with emotional affairs to begin with. A relationship with a member of the opposite gender in of itself can be healthy and is not necessarily an emotional affair. If the relationship in question was poor and tenuous to begin, and problems were occurring before the extraneous relationship was formed, the term "emotional affair" is less applicable - the relationship may instead be suffering from a Relational disorder.

December 13, 2013

From Wikipedia - It is important to distinguish between an emotional affair, a healthy friendship that does not risk the present relationship, and signs of a failing relationship that have nothing to do with emotional affairs to begin with. A relationship with a member of the opposite gender in of itself can be healthy and is not necessarily an emotional affair. If the relationship in question was poor and tenuous to begin, and problems were occurring before the extraneous relationship was formed, the term "emotional affair" is less applicable - the relationship may instead be suffering from a Relational disorder.

Relational Disorder does not apply here. She had a an affair. There were met ups that had hand holding, kissing and cuddling. They also had sexually charged conversation via online chat/email.

December 15, 2013

it's possible. i'm quite strong and i'd say dominant in our marriage. but i've been that way always... and he's always said that he prefers strong women.
i have tried to take the back seat regarding a lot of things, in the end i'm the one taking the lead anyway as he forgets or just doesn't follow up.

I suggest you try a softer approach, see what happens when he's a bit more in charge? Maybe it'll help to regain confidence in himself?

December 15, 2013

so, he couldn't fix his issues before, then you had an EA, and now you expect him to fix them? I think your marriage is far gone and I would just divorce him. You want him, but he doesn't want you. I'm pretty sure he is staying for the kids. Lots of men do. Myself included.

December 16, 2013

On another note....please tell me some good qualities about your husband.

he's intelligent, kind and funny. (when he wants to) he can take anything on and work out how to do it. He's a good father and he does try to do good things.

December 16, 2013

I suggest you try a softer approach, see what happens when he's a bit more in charge? Maybe it'll help to regain confidence in himself?

i have tried that - took a back seat and let him be responsible for a lot of things to do with the household and children's school and activities.

i got accused of being passive aggressive for doing so in this thread - my reasoning behind it was that if he took care of more things, that would give him the confidence and won't make me the pants wearer of the relationship. didn't work, things just got forgotten.

i'm considering trying it again. just asking for his help with things. maybe that would be a better approach.

December 16, 2013

so, he couldn't fix his issues before, then you had an EA, and now you expect him to fix them? I think your marriage is far gone and I would just divorce him. You want him, but he doesn't want you. I'm pretty sure he is staying for the kids. Lots of men do. Myself included.

i don't think he is. he says he loves me, just yesterday we were talking about someone winning lottery in our city and he said 'if it were us we could finally go and live in ______ and grow old just looking at our animals and gardens. oh well, we'll just need to wait a few more years'.

i don't think a man who is only around for the kids would say a thing like that. do you say such things to your wife?

December 16, 2013

i have tried that - took a back seat and let him be responsible for a lot of things to do with the household and children's school and activities.
i got accused of being passive aggressive for doing so in this thread - my reasoning behind it was that if he took care of more things, that would give him the confidence and won't make me the pants wearer of the relationship. didn't work, things just got forgotten.

i'm considering trying it again. just asking for his help with things. maybe that would be a better approach.

Hold on a sec....I said you were being passive aggressive for allowing consequences to escalate when you KNOW he was not the responsible party for the bills etc. in the marriage prior to your EA.

I like your approach in asking for help rather than just dumping it all on him. It shows that his opinions matter without putting you in the position of fixing errors or trying to keep score.

Remember the point of the marriage is to be a team and pickup the slack. Not to keep score.

December 16, 2013

i don't think he is. he says he loves me, just yesterday we were talking about someone winning lottery in our city and he said 'if it were us we could finally go and live in ______ and grow old just looking at our animals and gardens. oh well, we'll just need to wait a few more years'.
i don't think a man who is only around for the kids would say a thing like that. do you say such things to your wife?

well, then he is definitely not over your EA... maybe it's his subconscious way of punishing you...

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