Need an emotional connection

[Iguanna]

why should a guy waste months on this emotion connection bs?

 

Note to OP: this is the kind of response to your hypothetical friend's story is the one that should make you run away

[RedRobin]

Note to OP: this is the kind of response to your hypothetical friend's story is the one that should make you run away

 

haha... ya, right?

 

Good one!

[RedRobin]

No-one owes you rainbows and butterflies OP. It takes 2-3 months to work someone out and there will be more duff than good ones. Time to toughen up and not be so easily offended.

 

Never said they did.

 

I hope I never stop being offended by liars.

 

OTOH, If I'm going to learn how to wall myself off even more, I'd argue a better target is learning how to embrace casual sex, multi-dating, multi-effing and creative obfuscation that seem to be the tools of the trade these days.

 

Some call it 'embracing ambiguity'. Love that. Lets all embrace ambiguity.. great. Sounds like a wonderful way to build trust (that was sarcasm).

 

If we are obliged to throw real intimacy and trust out the door... let's not do it half-assed. Let's just fling it out with both hands and call it 'fun'.

[Woggle]

RR I agree with you but how long were you out of the dating scene in order for this to shock you? There is a whole generation that has known almost nothing but the hookup culture. It's been like this for a while. I am not saying be a part of it but accept the fact that people like and I are the minority and our numbers are growing smaller everyday. There is nothing we can do about it.

[Elliotte]

I usually wouldn't date a woman unless there is some sign of emotional connection from the start. If we can't have a quality conversation, I'm not the type of guy to pull some moves from The Game in order to bed you even though I don't truly have anything in common.

 

While I am fine with not jumping straight into sex, I find the 2-3 month arbitrary wait time not quite my speed. There is a such thing as a quality emotional connection, but a bad physical one. To me physical connection is important too, so why not let things go at their own pace rather put up a clock? There's a nice balance between waiting for sex and artificially putting up a barrier with a countdown. Then you're just forcing the other person to take things at your speed, rather than finding a mutual speed.

 

I'm definitely a 'let things happen naturally' type of guy, or was when I was dating. I probably wouldn't go for a second date with you if you told me that was your rule.

[RedRobin]

RR I agree with you but how long were you out of the dating scene in order for this to shock you? There is a whole generation that has known almost nothing but the hookup culture. It's been like this for a while. I am not saying be a part of it but accept the fact that people like and I are the minority and our numbers are growing smaller everyday. There is nothing we can do about it.

 

It's not just being out of the dating scene... it's not being around people with this mentality.

 

None of my friends or family have this mentality. I only come across it when I TRY to date. I have this (apparently) naïve view of relationships based on the many successful ones I've witnessed throughout my life... and even based on the successful ones *I* have had in the past...

 

... but I'll be damned if I can make sense of any of this other stuff. I'm doing my best not to wallow in my disappointment (I only vent it here)... and try to maintain a cheerful attitude (trust me, I do!) without jumping to conclusions with every new guy I meet.... but it's always the same since I've lived in this area.

 

I'm stuck here, in a way. My job is highly specialized and it would basically be career suicide to leave here... but I'm almost ready to take that step. What holds me back is not knowing if it will really be all that different somewhere else I go... if this attitude is that pervasive, I can't imagine how I'd feel if I did take that career hit, and STILL found myself surrounded by people with this attitude.

 

When I start feeling this way, I end up just getting more sad that I didn't make a good choice of a husband when I was younger. It seems like that's the only time anyone with my style of relating has a snowball's chance in hell of being happy.... you either find a worthy spouse when you are young... and if you don't, then you are condemned to suffer in dating purgatory for life... going from one person to the next and the next and the next...

 

That is what this feels like. I feel like I'm in hell.

[Woggle]

It's not just being out of the dating scene... it's not being around people with this mentality.

 

None of my friends or family have this mentality. I only come across it when I TRY to date. I have this (apparently) naïve view of relationships based on the many successful ones I've witnessed throughout my life... and even based on the successful ones *I* have had in the past...

 

... but I'll be damned if I can make sense of any of this other stuff. I'm doing my best not to wallow in my disappointment (I only vent it here)... and try to maintain a cheerful attitude (trust me, I do!) without jumping to conclusions with every new guy I meet.... but it's always the same since I've lived in this area.

 

I'm stuck here, in a way. My job is highly specialized and it would basically be career suicide to leave here... but I'm almost ready to take that step. What holds me back is not knowing if it will really be all that different somewhere else I go... if this attitude is that pervasive, I can't imagine how I'd feel if I did take that career hit, and STILL found myself surrounded by people with this attitude.

 

When I start feeling this way, I end up just getting more sad that I didn't make a good choice of a husband when I was younger. It seems like that's the only time anyone with my style of relating has a snowball's chance in hell of being happy.... you either find a worthy spouse when you are young... and if you don't, then you are condemned to suffer in dating purgatory for life... going from one person to the next and the next and the next...

 

That is what this feels like. I feel like I'm in hell.

 

By the time most people get to a certain age they are either happily with somebody they love or they hate the opposite sex and only want casual at the most. This does not make it good for the few who want something real.

[RedRobin]

I usually wouldn't date a woman unless there is some sign of emotional connection from the start. If we can't have a quality conversation, I'm not the type of guy to pull some moves from The Game in order to bed you even though I don't truly have anything in common.

 

While I am fine with not jumping straight into sex, I find the 2-3 month arbitrary wait time not quite my speed. There is a such thing as a quality emotional connection, but a bad physical one. To me physical connection is important too, so why not let things go at their own pace rather put up a clock? There's a nice balance between waiting for sex and artificially putting up a barrier with a countdown. Then you're just forcing the other person to take things at your speed, rather than finding a mutual speed.

 

I'm definitely a 'let things happen naturally' type of guy, or was when I was dating. I probably wouldn't go for a second date with you if you told me that was your rule.

 

I understand that.. except for most men, it seems 'let things happen naturally' still seems to equal having sex with a stranger. For them, all the guy needs to verify is that she isn't a psycho. For women, it's a lot tougher. Even in the best parts of the world, and at any age, men with addiction, crime, and violence issues vastly outnumber women... so we automatically start out at a disadvantage.

 

Around here, it's even tougher still due to the fact that, for whatever reason, there seems to be a lot more men who have some serious life issues that are masked really easily by their jobs and even the social networks... much more so than anyplace I've ever lived before. You wouldn't even begin to imagine the number of guys I've gone out with who I found out had multiple DUI's, former addicts, bankrupt... all that.

 

I feel like I'm on some dating desert island where there are like 100 women to every one decent guy who doesn't have some kind of serious effed up life they are trying to compensate for.

 

Other than that... I need to get to know them well enough to know that he is who says he is and wants what he says he wants... AND... that I'm not going to be treated like an f-buddy or FWB... I just can't imagine that taking any less than this period. The only other way I could imagine that period being less than that, is if I had the opportunity to observe how this guy treated his GF or wife before me or we knew each other really well in some other context.

[gabgab]

2-3 months is spot on in my opinion. A guy will have a tough time maintaining his fake intentions with that length.

[jba10582]

If someone told you he/she preferred to go slow and needed an emotional connection before being physically intimate (ie sex), what would that mean to you?

 

I'm doing a bit of processing over the last two guys I dated. In both cases, I dated them without sex for about two months. In both cases, they claimed to want or need an emotional connection and claimed to want a relationship with me.

 

To me it means you can relate with that person on a lot of levels and care about them as person, (other than spirtually of course). If I never saw them again, would I care. If I didn't get to see them often would I care?

 

if the answer is no, no, then I would probably not have developed any kind of emotional connection with them.

 

if yes, no, then there is probably some level of connection and I would probably have sex with them (if they were an attractive female) and we were both feeling it.

 

if yes, yes, then Id probably want to develop a better relationship with them in addition to the sex.

 

 

 

So, let's say I come across another guy who claims that... I'm curious to know from a guy's point of view what that looks like. For the guys who have that 'style', how soon do you have sex? What is your relationship history like? Have you ever had a FWB, and if so, would you again? These are things I'd like to find a way to sort out so I don't have to waste 2-3 months or more dating the next one to figure this out.

 

yes I have had FWB but they stemmed from being friends first then long-term relationships. A lot of guys may not actually get into a relationship with a FWB however. So I do not speak for any other guy.

[Elliotte]

I understand that.. except for most men, it seems 'let things happen naturally' still seems to equal having sex with a stranger. For them, all the guy needs to verify is that she isn't a psycho. For women, it's a lot tougher. Even in the best parts of the world, and at any age, men with addiction, crime, and violence issues vastly outnumber women... so we automatically start out at a disadvantage.

 

Around here, it's even tougher still due to the fact that, for whatever reason, there seems to be a lot more men who have some serious life issues that are masked really easily by their jobs and even the social networks... much more so than anyplace I've ever lived before. You wouldn't even begin to imagine the number of guys I've gone out with who I found out had multiple DUI's, former addicts, bankrupt... all that.

 

I feel like I'm on some dating desert island where there are like 100 women to every one decent guy who doesn't have some kind of serious effed up life they are trying to compensate for.

 

Other than that... I need to get to know them well enough to know that he is who says he is and wants what he says he wants... AND... that I'm not going to be treated like an f-buddy or FWB... I just can't imagine that taking any less than this period. The only other way I could imagine that period being less than that, is if I had the opportunity to observe how this guy treated his GF or wife before me or we knew each other really well in some other context.

 

If you're waiting to learn that he isn't any of those I would wait 2-3 months before showing him where you live! Stick to dates in public where he can't harm you and you can build trust enough before being alone with him, plus if you're not alone with him for that long, there won't be sex anyways.

[RedRobin]

If you're waiting to learn that he isn't any of those I would wait 2-3 months before showing him where you live! Stick to dates in public where he can't harm you and you can build trust enough before being alone with him, plus if you're not alone with him for that long, there won't be sex anyways.

 

That's pretty much how it has been. On average, I'd say it is at least a month before I have a guy in my house or their house at all. That tends to weed out the ones who really are just looking for something casual or the bonafide tire-kickers.

 

It does take longer to find out about the other stuff... their intentions with ME and also any major issues about their life. Probably two months minimum of dates, phone calls, etc. He's probably getting anxious about the fact we haven't had sex yet...and yea! I'm thinking about it too!!... so I suggest we go get STD tests. This is where a lot more get weeded out.

 

Which carries me into month three...Somewhere in the two to three month mark is when incompatibility issues start to arise... including any fussing about STD tests, discussions about sexuality, life and relationship goals, etc.

[RedRobin]

Ha, ha, suck me dry emotionally.... I came up with the word 'Hoover' to describe my experiences in my demographic. The undisclosed MW's were the worst of it. You hit on an important aspect of parity in establishing emotional rapport prior to sex; it must be mutual. I ran into a lot of women letting me love them. Man, that was debilitating. It sounds a lot like what you're getting at with your 'suck me dry emotionally' remark.

 

I guess time reveals all truths, as you noted with your FB marathon friend. After enough iterations, TBH, very little phases me anymore. Smile and move on.

 

The two times I agreed to go bike riding, and another for just tea to talk and get caught up in the past month or two, he said he wasn't seeing anyone. If we were going to try and establish a friendship, I needed to know. I certainly wasn't hiding anything from him. Never have.

 

You know what is sad about this... I stayed FB friends long enough to check out her pictures with him. They have some very cozy pictures of them going back to September of last year. He and I dated from March through the end of April. Of course, in that period, there was the random excuses about work or his kid... I know that was BS now... Especially since he had no problems talking about everyone else in his past. He never mentioned her. Not once.

 

Her status says 'in a relationship'. She thinks she's in a relationship with him. From the pictures, I don't blame her. Very sad. She has two young children too. He's involved with her kids and everything... while he's out messing around with other women.

 

The more recent pics of her and him together were taken this month and posted by her sister on his timeline. I saw them before he deleted them... or hid them from me... or whatever.

 

So he's clearly been lying to both of us.

 

These are things I learn when trying to establish a friendship with someone I dated before. It helps me hone my BS detector, and sometimes, I actually do develop a legitimate friendship with a guy who I just wasn't compatible with.... but is a straight up person.

 

My last LTR was with just such a guy. He and I talked on the phone last night about all this. I'm good friends with his long-time girlfriend too. I owe her a pie!! She really helped me out after the initial FB disclosure I saw. You know, things like should I tell his 'girlfriend'... should I say anything to him... all that. We decided it wasn't worth my time to say anything.

 

As you said, just smile and move on. I learned what I needed to learn from being his FB 'friend' at least. Makes me realize I made the right decision back in April!! (take THAT all you folks who thought I was just dissing a good guy... and no guy is good enough for me. Yea, I'm not stupid).

[RedRobin]

... and Ninja... if you do happen to be still reading this thread...

 

I get it that you don't like having to prove anything to a woman to 'get' sex... and don't feel the need to.

 

Thing is, what I've learned from the high quality, sincere, commitment oriented men in my social circle (all married or in LTRs).... is that they are also cautious when it comes to this. They are cautious when it comes to many things. They have to be.

 

They, like me, have something to lose by getting associated with a bad sort of person. Sure, they are good judges of character, but they still don't tend to make snap decisions about sex and are very selective about who they are with or have been... is what I've learned.

 

If I need to loosen up at all, it might be on the topic of responsible multi-dating, where they may be seeing other women while seeing me, but without sex. So far though, I've never observed a responsible multi-dater IRL. Most of them are having sex with multiple women or trying to... at least to kick the tires. Which I won't do. *shrug*

[Woggle]

I don't think you need to loosen up on anything except for maybe blaming all this on men when both genders have contributed to the current state of affairs but come to peace with the fact that what you are looking for is hard to find these days.

[RedRobin]

I don't think you need to loosen up on anything except for maybe blaming all this on men when both genders have contributed to the current state of affairs but come to peace with the fact that what you are looking for is hard to find these days.

 

Fair enough.

[Babolat]

If someone told you he/she preferred to go slow and needed an emotional connection before being physically intimate (ie sex), what would that mean to you?

 

I'm doing a bit of processing over the last two guys I dated. In both cases, I dated them without sex for about two months. In both cases, they claimed to want or need an emotional connection and claimed to want a relationship with me.

 

In both cases, I wasn't sold on their declarations. One of them had a recent FWB, and I felt was trying to push me towards that style. I've stayed in some contact with this one because we are both in the same running group. The more I learn about him, the more I see my original assessment was correct. The other had tacky friends and poor mouth control that showed me that certainly wasn't his history... despite what he claimed he was looking for.

 

So, let's say I come across another guy who claims that... I'm curious to know from a guy's point of view what that looks like. For the guys who have that 'style', how soon do you have sex? What is your relationship history like? Have you ever had a FWB, and if so, would you again? These are things I'd like to find a way to sort out so I don't have to waste 2-3 months or more dating the next one to figure this out.

 

I have never had this conversation with a woman. And, only one woman has kind of had this conversation with me, my last gf. As crazy as she was, she also had some amazing qualities. My first LTR, well, she was a virigin, and, we waited 2.5 years, until our wedding night.

 

I have had a FWB, one, and only one. never again. And, I am not sure it was really a FWB as I went into it seeing her as somone I could possibly date. There was a strong emotuional connection with her from the first day I met her, almost 3 years prior to sex. It was never just sex for me. I would like to think a future woman would not discount me for this, if she does, oh well.

 

My relationship history, my 3 LTRs, sex came later, 6+ weeks or more. And with the exception of my first wife, the virgin, there were no declarations. My 2nd wife, I think we dated for almost 2 months before i even kissed her!

 

RR, I like you. Though, you seem fixated, almost obsessed, with this sorting and filtering of men. It's a good quality, however, sometimes you have to put the time in to learn who someone really is. Meet their friends earlier maybe. See how they interact with them. Listen to your inner voice, it's usually right.

 

I dunno, things just kind of happen naturally for me and the discovery process just seems to flow more naturally for me. I seem to know pretty quick if we are a "fit", where I want to invest more time in the discovery phase, getting to know the person.

 

If a man has to make declarations to you early on, well, that's probably a red flag. My best guess about your last two men, their claims for an emotional connection, came from conversations with you, where, maybe they were repeating what they heard, what you wanted, to, well get some. Good for you for not giving them some. You state post dating, the more you learned about these men, the more you realized your assessment was right. Maybe think about what it is that you are learning post dating, how you learned it, that you can apply earlier in the dating/discovery phase. And, I have never dated you of course, but my guess is maybe you come across as too methodical, more static and less dynamic and less natural. I dunno..there is a gap somewhere, I wish I could help you find it and resolve it.

 

Your FB guy you talk about above, well, that too feels a little obsessive, like you just had to dig into his FB to confirm your suspicions. I get it, I really do, been there. It's not healthy though and it in my opinion is part of you current issue with men; maybe you are too suspicious from the get go, they feel it, I dunno. Just tossing stuff out there. Not judging.

 

My FWB, the one thing that bugged me, and would have kept me from dating her, was her insecurities with men. Her first LTR, he cheated on her so I get it. She had a lot of insecurities, and I was understanding, but she projected them on me all the time, and it wore on me. She use to tell me I needed to go **** my two female friends so I introduced her to them. That just made it worse.

Edited December 12, 2013 by Babolat

[Quiet Storm]

Many women naturally want to be in a long term relationship with someone they feel an emotional connection with. They see it as a natural progression.

 

I think there are some men that can be emotionally connected to a woman, even love her- but still not want a long term, serious relationship with her. They seem to be able to appreciate a relationship for what it is, in the here & now- without assuming it will progress to long term.

 

So it can be very confusing, I think, if a woman is using his feelings for her to guage his relationship potential.

 

What you need is a relationship minded man- not just one that likes to have an emotional connection.

 

Since so many men "future fake" to get laid, you can't really go by what they say. I would look at their history. Are his parents still together & happily married? Who were his male role models? Has he had any serious, long term relationships? What plans as he made for his future, and could you fit into them? Pay attention to subtle comments or "jokes" & body language regarding long term relationships & women. Does he have negative impressions of serious relationships, like thinking all women nag, stop wanting sex, want his money, etc?

[RedRobin]

RR, I like you. Though, you seem fixated, almost obsessed, with this sorting and filtering of men. It's a good quality, however, sometimes you have to put the time in to learn who someone really is. Meet their friends earlier maybe. See how they interact with them. Listen to your inner voice, it's usually right.

 

I dunno, things just kind of happen naturally for me and the discovery process just seems to flow more naturally for me. I seem to know pretty quick if we are a "fit", where I want to invest more time in the discovery phase, getting to know the person.

 

If a man has to make declarations to you early on, well, that's probably a red flag. My best guess about your last two men, their claims for an emotional connection, came from conversations with you, where, maybe they were repeating what they heard, what you wanted, to, well get some. Good for you for not giving them some. You state post dating, the more you learned about these men, the more you realized your assessment was right. Maybe think about what it is that you are learning post dating, how you learned it, that you can apply earlier in the dating/discovery phase. And, I have never dated you of course, but my guess is maybe you come across as too methodical, more static and less dynamic and less natural. I dunno..there is a gap somewhere, I wish I could help you find it and resolve it.

 

Your FB guy you talk about above, well, that too feels a little obsessive, like you just had to dig into his FB to confirm your suspicions. I get it, I really do, been there. It's not healthy though and it in my opinion is part of you current issue with men; maybe you are too suspicious from the get go, they feel it, I dunno. Just tossing stuff out there. Not judging.

 

My FWB, the one thing that bugged me, and would have kept me from dating her, was her insecurities with men. Her first LTR, he cheated on her so I get it. She had a lot of insecurities, and I was understanding, but she projected them on me all the time, and it wore on me. She use to tell me I needed to go **** my two female friends so I introduced her to them. That just made it worse.

 

On the first point... yes, there are an inordinate number of men in this area who have major life issues that have been concealed by their work and many social networks...

 

The only place(s) they wouldn't be concealed are with one of my two employers here... you basically need a security clearance and some REALLY good cred to get into either of these places. Thing is, all those men are taken. They don't tend to get divorced. As you can imagine... or when they get tired of their wives, they just have affairs.

 

As far as suspicions go... I think that comes from the hookup culture and way too many of these guys wanting to kick the tires sexually before getting to know me. It's not 'natural' or 'fun' to get propositioned routinely by strangers who CLAIM to be looking for a relationship.

 

... the only thing that hasn't changed is that I refuse to seque through the f-buddy, FWB, then maybe 'girlfriend' hierarchy they'd like to pass me through on their way to a 'relationship'... Or, maybe I would.... IF they weren't also... recovering alcoholics, addicts, bankrupt, with a criminal record, cheaters, etc. I don't need THAT on my dating rap sheet!

 

The only consistent thing I've come up with is that I just need to leave this area... It was never like this before I was married or even when I was in grad school down south. It was only like this when I moved up here.

[Grumpybutfun]

RR:

I completely can see where this would get old real fast. People telling you what they think you want to hear in order to get what they want is as old as time. Unfortunately, due to the internet and the media, people are actually becoming quite proficient at it. I wish I could tell you how to differentiate, but I am sure they have this down to an art. The only thing that could be beneficial may be in figuring out how long they give you the whole "I want to be in a relationship and have a connection before we have sex" speech and gauge it with you exposing your value system regarding the same. I truly hate dishonesty, and find this behavior from the men you dated to be incomprehensible.

Best,

Gumps

[Babolat]

The only consistent thing I've come up with is that I just need to leave this area... It was never like this before I was married or even when I was in grad school down south. It was only like this when I moved up here.

 

When I was on OKCupid, I found the woman I had the most in common with lived 90 miles away. I found myself Hiding all the local ones. Not sure what that means though. Maybe the good local ones simply were not on OKCupid.

 

There is someone on here who posts about this all the time, the dating pool where you are. I have never thought about moving, to date and meet "the one"...but I guess it's worth thinking about.

[PinkInTheLimo]

I know, right? Hard to believe that I even have to ask this question. Was pondering this with a friend over coffee the other day. Before I was married, when you dated someone it was a given they weren't dating others... and definitely not after you slept with them. There was no 'exclusivity' talk. It just WAS. Flash forward to after my divorce and I still haven't wrapped my brain around how things are these days. I mean, if you like them, enjoy their company, and enjoy sex with them... why not be in a relationship? I just don't get it.

 

Very well said. Those were the days (like in the 80ies and the early 90ies).

 

I find it so damn scary that these days you constantly have to question every word and every act. Because there are some people out there who have no trouble telling you blatant lies just to get what they want, or just because they enjoy wrongfooting you,...

If you're not a liar yourself that makes you damn vulnerable to such people.

 

If I will date again, I will wait several months before getting physical, hoping that that will to some extent weed out the players, the liars, the multidaters,... Not very spontaneous but what can you do? I mean, I would normally think that having sex with someone means something, whether you do it after the 2nd or the 5th date or after 3 months, but these days there seem to be a whole lot of guys out there who have sex with a woman exactly because they don't think much of her .

[PinkInTheLimo]

I wouldn't say it's an emotional connection I need. It's alot of things, but my mind works at lightning speed. I need a spark, a sense of a future with someone. Mind you this can all happen on a first date, including the sex.

 

 

Then again I don't really chitchat. It might come across as that, but I can learn alot about someone in a few hours.

 

 

I don't postpone sex. That would mean the spark isn't there. And I want to be fullfilled at all levels, so I need to know if we're sexually compatible too.

 

 

I don't waste 2-3 months on that. If someone needs that amount of time, she's not into me enough.

 

You place a lot of emphasis on instant chemistry but if you are looking for a long term relationship, will you really decide in such a short time whether someone is a good match for you?

 

I've had several first dates with guys like you. They are the ones who tell me afterwards that there was no chemistry. Every time that happened I was like "I just found out some basic facts about you and you already want chemistry?"

[Woggle]

Very well said. Those were the days (like in the 80ies and the early 90ies).

 

I find it so damn scary that these days you constantly have to question every word and every act. Because there are some people out there who have no trouble telling you blatant lies just to get what they want, or just because they enjoy wrongfooting you,...

If you're not a liar yourself that makes you damn vulnerable to such people.

 

If I will date again, I will wait several months before getting physical, hoping that that will to some extent weed out the players, the liars, the multidaters,... Not very spontaneous but what can you do? I mean, I would normally think that having sex with someone means something, whether you do it after the 2nd or the 5th date or after 3 months, but these days there seem to be a whole lot of guys out there who have sex with a woman exactly because they don't think much of her .

 

It makes me feel old when people consider the 90s to be back in the day. It doesn't seem that long ago to me.

[gaius]

Am I the only one trying to figure out where red lives all logic problem style? I don't think it would be nearly as much fun if she just said it.

 

Been trying to come up with a response to this thread for a while with no luck. All I can really say is I've had good luck in the one long distance relationship I've been in. When I found someone far away who could meet my needs better than anyone close by. Since you seem to be in the upper income bracket that could be a realistic option for you. Wouldn't even have to move.

 

I'll also say you should show the exact honest side you show to us to guys in real life. Angst and all, which you hint that you leave out. I don't know if I would have been as interested in Disenchantedly as I was if I just saw her much more polite social face instead of who she really was.