do you overnight at ex's house to see the kids?

[elementals]

I have a complicated situation. At least to me it is.

 

My fiance has an ex wife. When I met him, he had a daughter, now almost 11 with her.

 

We broke up for a few months, and he went back to her during that time and they produced another child, who is now almost 2 years old. A little boy.

 

The ex wife is an exceedingly difficult woman. Manipulative, dishonest. She made clear she wants to re-marry my fiance and have her family whole again.

 

He does not want to be with her. So he says. And there is a whole painful story I could tell here, but I think my question would get lost here.

 

The ex has full custody of the kids at this point. She uses the kids to try and manipulate things from my fiance. Usually money. He did not see the children since early August, when she kicked him out of the house on a visit because he refused to give her money for a vacation she wanted, and because he refused to agree to get tested for aids because she wants to have sex with him and get back together.

 

So he stayed away. It was a relief to me because I find all of this a bit difficult to handle. After a few weeks, he began to try and negotiate a visit. The ex had demands and refused to set a time to visit. This goes on until this past weekend, when amazingly *cynically* his daughter called him up and said come see me today! With the ex's permission.

 

So off he goes. When he gets there, ex has a big list of repairs she wants done. He knew he had been manipulated, but he went at it, happy to see the children.

 

He touches base with me while he is there through skype chat on his smartphone.

 

So evening comes, and he is still there. And I say, are you coming home? I asked because he has spent the nights there in the past so he can be there the next day. He wants to tuck his kids in. And his ex loves it because she wants to try and get him to sleep with her. She likes to stalk me on facebook and let me know her side of things :/

 

I am going to answer questions a few of you may already be thinking. Why is there no custody orders so he gets time with them on his own? She has rich parents. He is not rich. He has problems with depression and anxiety, easily upset. He tells me it will be a big fight and he is not rested enough for it.

 

I totally support him seeing the children, but I am extremely averse to the overnights. Because of what happened in the past. The overnights are very painful to me.

 

I was married before, too. I raised my son. His dad was in the same town, a 5 minute trip. We had custody orders, but we basically defaulted to everyone saw each other whenever they felt like. It wasn't a problem. I never held back my child. My ex husband never asked to stay the night, I never tried to stay with him.

 

Currently I live in a very large city. The trip from us to the ex's is about 2.5 -3 hours all the way across the city.

 

So part of me is really understanding this: long trip, my fiance wants the time with his kids, overnights suck for me because of the past break up and second child. My fiance wants me to simply accept his word that he is avoiding the ex trying to get him back and becomes very upset if I ask anything else. I mean he is fine with me saying oh tell me about what your daughter is doing and how she is, and does your son like the snow.

 

And now I feel silly

 

Any anxiety I show, he says there there it will be ok. But simply, while I understand the distance and the children being sad and not wanting him to leave.. I am very upset that though he knows how I feel, he is ignoring me and does lash out at me if I express more than what is literally a sentence of anxiety and discomfort.

 

I don't know if I have a problem in me, or if he is being unfair to me.

 

I have suggested hotel room to him, but no, he says it is a waste of money when he can stay at his ex's. It is NOT that I don't support him for his children. I literally feel I am being cheated on with the overnights.

 

Chime in for me please. Do I need to drop the complaint and suck it up or is this situation kind of strange for divorced parents to be doing?

[CalamityJane]

When I first started reading this, it brought back memories of when I actually lived with my ex while I was dating. I made it work. I'm actually now married to the guy I was dating back then. So I was going to Rah Rah Rah for your fiance. I think he's probably being honest about not wanting to be with his ex, but since she is such a strong manipulative type, there's a good possibility she could wear down his defenses. So having said that, I'm throwing away the Rah Rah's for your fiance, these overnighters are not a good idea.

 

How many times has he spent the night there? Is it a regular thing he actually schedules and plans in advance? The honey-do list really gets me, too.

 

In my opinion, I think you should tell him he has to choose between being a husband-on-the-side while engaged to someone else, or, being in a committed relationship with you. He needs to fight for joint custody, regardless of how much money her family has. If he continues saying he's not rested enough for it, tell him to let you know when he is. You don't deserve to have half of your fiance belonging to someone else. You have every right to set restrictions and expect him to stay within certain boundaries.

 

Good luck to you, I hope everything works out.

[d0nnivain]

If it was a one time thing, like he got stuck in a snow storm, yeah for safety maybe you have to let it go. Routine overnights are a bad thing. Too much familiarity.

 

If they are 3 hours apart, why can't it be arranged that they exchange kids in the middle?

[elementals]

to answer why no exchange in the middle distance. his ex refuses to let the children go. She wants HIM to come there. She will use the kids to force him to comply with coming over. Once he went to pick up his daughter to take back to see his mother ( grandmother) and when he got there, his ex starting debating and arguing. So he picked the child up to leave and the ex grabbed onto the little girls legs and literally began a tug of war, screaming at the top of her lungs.

 

He let go, of course, to avoid injury and further conflict. He runs into this every time he tries to get the kids to himself. Recently this past summer, he just wanted to have a little picnic in the park next to where his ex lives and the woman insisted on being there. He told her he wanted time with the kids, but it then becomes an epic fit on the part of the ex.

 

He tells me: what is better, to keep the peace and try at least to enjoy the children or have drama for hours and waste the time he is there.

 

 

To Calamity Jane: he has gone there in the past. He claims there is no reason to worry, but then his ex fusses at me when he goes there, and I am kind of paranoid from what has happened. He and his ex are in a lot of conflict. There are times he has walked through the door there and he said he was literally so furious at the woman within a few minutes, he left.

 

My trust has not returned. I am cautious about anything that smacks of a threat or ultimatum. Despite the trust he has broken, he becomes extremely insulted if I am doubtful or have problems with what he is doing.

 

As I said, this woman is EXTREMELY manipulative. She once pounced on me and said the little girl knew all about how I was trying to take her father away. My fiance would show up to visit and the child would be in hysterics, shaking and crying. The ex is absolutely relentless. She wants him back and she will use the children to blackmail him.

 

He just says his nerves are shot, he can be trusted, he doesn't like her, hates the manipulation, he is exhausted from the constant struggle, impatient with me because he thinks I should understand he got painted into a corner and is so depressed atm that he can't fight his way out.

 

Probably you can tell I am really upset about it all. And when I show the upset and try to talk to him about just not staying overnight, he gets depressed and angry and shuts down. I think he feels that he presented this terrible situation and that he feels since he can't ( not ready emotionally and mentally) to take on the fight it is going to be...he thinks I should tolarate it. He has expressed to me that he has no expectation of me feeling ok about it, simply he would like me to stop showing the upset and accept his choice on how he is handling it now.

 

I am scared everytime he goes over. I held it together pretty well this last round, until I became afraid he was going to stay an extra night and I had a bit of a melt down.

 

I guess what I want to come out of this is to find a way to be ok with it, or for him to make plans ahead of time to be there earlier in the day and leave at a reasonable time in the evening.

 

The list of chores... basically his ex manipulated him into doing them. He said it was clear that if he didn't address them, she was going to go into drama and the last thing he wanted was his time there to be ruined with the kids. And while he is doing that, ex enjoys playing happy family and mommy and daddy.

 

Guess I am cynical but that is what he tells me happens.

[d0nnivain]

elementals -- how deeply are you invested in this guy? I couldn't sit by & watch this crap. I dated one guy with a son & the EX was nutty too (not as nutty as physically playing tug of war with a child but nutty enough). I would never put myself in that situation again.

 

 

His kids do need to be a priority & kudos for him for trying to keep the peace but geesh. . . at some point this guy needs to cut the apron strings. Until he puts a stop to her awful behavior, you will have to put up with this for the rest of the kids' lives. Are you willing to do that?

 

 

FWIW, I actually made it work.

 

 

First, the son was older (13) when we started.

 

 

Second, I never said a bad word about the mother in front of the kid. Lord knows I said plenty when he wasn't at my house. The son once even asked me if I could be friends with his mom because he said she didn't have a lot of girlfriends & maybe I could help her be happier. It broke my heart. I told him that I'd do a lot for him because I loved him, but that was one thing I couldn't do.

 

 

Third, I calmly had it out with the EX. I explained to her that I wasn't the cause of her divorce or anything else wrong in her life & wasn't going to tolerate her being inappropriate with me -- no screaming, no banging on my front door at all hours of the night & day, etc. I told her I realized that her son spent time at my house & that for his safety we'd have to interact but I didn't want to hear anything other than "nice day", "lovely weather" or "can I please speak to son?" I had one advantage; I knew her divorce lawyer & called him to get him to make her stop & spelled out the consequences of what would happen if she didn't.

 

 

I got lucky because the son stuck up for me. He told his mom I wasn't the bad guy. He also came to me for things. I drove him on his first date. (I didn't know it was his 1st date until we got to the little girl's house which was very awkward for him because then I felt that I had to go in the house to explain to her parents who I was. As I expected they weren't keen on the idea of their daughter going out with her date's father's GF. Her dad took over driving duties.). That made both of his parents wake up & figure out that their son trusted me more than them at that point. They stopped being so manipulative & dramatic after.

 

 

The dad & I ended up breaking up for reasons that had nothing to do with the kid or his custody issues. My EX passed away two years after that & I went to the funeral because I had known the whole family since high school. When I arrived, his EX wife threw herself in my arms sobbing that our EX loved two women in his life -- her & me -- so I was the only one who understood how she felt. It was ridiculous. But when I looked up, I saw the son, who was about 18 then, cracking up laughing. When I later asked him why, he said that after everything his parents put me through I still ended up having to take care of his mother. He said he knew that wherever his father was at that moment, he was laughing too considering how hard I tried to keep the EX wife at an emotional distance.

[elementals]

With exception of about 3 months, we have been together for going on 8 years. I am very invested. This..regression ( to me at least) of the overnight after it not happening for months and months is really upsetting to me.

 

He has said to me he doesn't understand why I am so upset at the overnights and pointed out to me if he wanted to have sex with her, he could do it during the daytime. And I am thinking with 2 kids there in a 4 room apartment?

 

I said to him, ok, tell me where you sleep when you are there.

 

He said, all you need to know is that I am not sleeping with HER.

 

I disagree. I told him take away some of the mystery and I will feel a bit more reassured. His answer? He refused to discuss it. Which increased my anxiety and upset.

 

Today I am taking time away from him to think about how or wether I can handle what he is doing. Some part of me.. heart, feelings, brains..ego? Feels that I am being disrespected and bullied into something that simply shouldn't be happening ever.

 

But then, I am not a dad getting screwed around on seeing his kids and has only been able to see them for a day or so in the last 4 months. He said they begged him to stay the overnight and he did.

[d0nnivain]

He should have told you he sleeps on the couch, or in the den, or with the kids. Because he wouldn't answer, I'd be thinking he was sleeping in bed with her.

[elementals]

I am thinking that. Which is why I am upset.

[elementals]

though to be fair to what he claimed, he was busy doing the chores she had. He messaged me at about 3AM to reassure me. I asked why he was up and he said he had opted to stay up and work on repairing a light and the computer. he tried to reassure me not to worry, kisses, hugs honey, everything is ok, don't be afraid.

 

Well, I am afraid.

[d0nnivain]

After 8 years you should have the ability to fight fairly with him. He's probably not sleeping in the bed with her but I'd put my foot down: Answer the f'ing Q or I'm assuming you slept in the bed with her. I might make it a deal breaker but I think you are being awfully sweet about the rest if the garbage his ex is dragging you through.

[elementals]

He has a passive agressive streak. If he were calm and I hadn't been upset, I could ask him and get more of an answer. He is mad I don't trust him, resentful, so he gives me silent treatment until he calms down. The more I push when he is like that, the worse it gets. And the more upset I get. So I tend to try and back off and wait a few days, then ask.

 

As far as my sweetness, maybe I am terrible, but I told her off a number of times until I realized she LOVES the conflict and is energized to gross levels of action and enjoyment from it. Also she drags him in and in the past has been successful at turning him on me with lies. After a couple of years, he figured out what she was doing and he ignores that now. I generally follow suit with the eff you of silence. He says he can't make her stop.

 

She does tend to go silent if he disengages from being around her. But that includes the kids.

 

I guess I am just venting some.

[veggirl]

I'd dump the dickhead on grounds that he doesn't even care enough about his kids to get a custody agreement! Oh wah wah too tired, guess ill just go months without seeing my kids! Whata loser.

[Peanut9330]

I understand that he wants to avoid conflict and see his kids but he's doing it at the expense of you. Seriously he needs to file for joint custody when children are involved "being tired" is a horrible excuse. I'm sorry but he's not being respectful of you or your feelings, and he jumps through hoops for his ex. I know he does it to see his kids but if he's too tired to file for custody shouldn't he also be too tired to jump through all these hoops at his ex's request. It just doesn't make any sense to me and t would be a total deal breaker especially since he's refusing to acknowledge your feelings and just expects you to accept what he's doing.

[elementals]

I don't usually call him dickhead and loser, as verbal abuse tends to escalate upset.

 

He was making a point to go over every other weekend until early this past August when her demands to see the kids included extra money for a vacation she wanted to take to a resort for a few weeks, that he come back and they work things out, and that he get an AIDS test. She wrote me and told me he needed one because he's being seeing some prostitute ( me!) and god knows what sexually transmissable disease he may have gotton.

 

He refused and she kicked him out of the visit on that day. He waited a couple weeks then called and tried to negotiate a visitation and she gave him the run around saying call back later. He did, then after some time passed, suddenly his daughter is calling him saying come over. He went over and there was the list of chores.

 

It's not as cut and dried as it seems. Please be respectful.

[mrs rubble]

I'm with vegegirl, the guy has no backbone. The manipulation and tug-of-war is abuse!! I'd be reporting it. There's no way in the world you'd catch me with a man who allowed (and even enables) the abuse of his own children.

Those poor kids are going to be seriously screwed up by both of their parents behaviour, do you really want to be around to experience the fallout?

I'd bet he is screwing her too BTW.

[CalamityJane]

Elementals, after reading your additional posts, I'm thinking he probably is sleeping with her. When I suspected my ex was cheating on me he got VERY mad and VERY defensive. Men use that as a tool, and they deny, deny, deny.

 

Obviously you love the guy, but do you really want to put up with this indefinitely? Worrying ... waiting ... crying ... wondering what's going to happen next ...? That's what will happen if you don't change your circumstances asap.

 

If he refuses to change these circumstances, dump him. I think it would be very compelling for you if he says he'd rather you broke off the engagement than to fight for joint custody of his children. I hope that isn't the choice he makes, but if it is ... RUN.

[elementals]

I don't want to put up with it indefinitely. We are supposed to go on a trip to Iceland in late April. I guess I have this deadline in my head that he needs to be taking some sensible steps to sort it by that point.

 

He's told me he knows his ex will make it a "bloodbath".

 

From what I know of the lady, there will indeed be one.

[Peanut9330]

I don't want to put up with it indefinitely. We are supposed to go on a trip to Iceland in late April. I guess I have this deadline in my head that he needs to be taking some sensible steps to sort it by that point.

 

He's told me he knows his ex will make it a "bloodbath".

 

From what I know of the lady, there will indeed be one.

 

Like I said earlier on one hand I can understand his perspective but on the other what about you and how you feel?? He expects you to take his feelings and situation into consideration yet he ignores yours.

[elementals]

I guess he is hoping I will understand and trust him and believe he will sort it in the future. He is worried about the money to fight it out. And I can understand that. Years ago when I divorced.. 13 years ago, my ex husband made it a road through hell. It took a couple of years, and I was dead broke at the end of it, credit destroyed, lost my friends, my reputation... I ended up with the only thing that really mattered to me: my son. And despite the custody fight, I never once made it hard for my ex to see our son.

 

My fiance's ex is not fighting for her children to feel better and have their father. She is using control of them as pawns to force him to obey her. My fiance is angry, resentful, frustrated and maybe spineless in that he is afraid the kids will be even more hurt.

 

Thanks everyone for giving me your thoughts.

[burningashes]

Yikes, this is not good.

 

I agree with other posters your fiance needs to look into custody, because I'm sure this is a nightmare for their kids.

 

You could point out if this was you sleeping over your ex's house to spend time with the kids, how would he feel about it? He is obviously not considerate of your feelings, because he's not in your shoes.

 

People should not be sleeping over their exes houses, ESPECIALLY if they're in relationships. My LTR ex did this to me before we broke up, he was spending nights at his so called best friend's house. I hated it, and begged him to stay home, but he always brushed it off that they were just friends, that it was not a big deal. It hurt me that he was doing it anyway. Your fiance should care that it hurts you, and it is clearly a matter of respect!

 

When there's will, there's a way. Have you guys considered maybe moving closer so that the commute isn't so long? Your ex also should not be doing favors around the house either.. he's there to see the kids, not to work! If I found out my boyfriend was doing things for his ex and not spending time with the kids like he said he wanted to, I would flip out!

 

Any friends or family around too? Perhaps he can spend the nights at someone else's house if they live closer to the ex's house. Your fiance needs to file for custody, stat, or you can count on this happening until his kids are adults. So sorry you're going through this awful situation.

[thinkingofhim]

Why in the world are you planning on marrying a guy who is someone elses part time husband. Are you going to be putting up with this when he's YOUR husband?!

[elementals]

I don't even know what to say. Atm he has gone into a depression and says he is tired of everyone blaming him for everything and he doesn't want to see anyone and would like to be left alone.

 

And no, of course I don't want him being a part time husband to his ex wife.

 

He seems to be crumpling. I can't figure out if it is a cop out, or if he is genuinely struggling. I asked him who was burdening him lately with "blaming" and he is declining to tell me.

 

He just says he is in a lot of emotional pain. Part of me can see why, because I would feel pretty awful if I had done what he has. Another part of me is feeling kind of impatient. How hard is it really to show empathy and support to people you have hurt and still want to have in your life?

 

Maybe I am heartless or something.

[The_Face]

This whole thing doesn't sound good.

 

Its one thing that your BF doesn't have much of a backbone for his kids sake, but its not just affecting them.

 

You're also having to deal with the consequences.

 

I also think his avoidance of giving you a clear answer on where he sleeps is highly suspect, especially given the fact you have been seeing him for eight years.

 

Honestly the dynamic with your BF and his ex sounds a lot like that of a dysfunctional couple.

 

You sound way too nice and are cutting him a lot of slack. He doesn't sound like he deserves you, no offense.

 

My suggestion is get out of this relationship. Find someone who can invest more in the relationship with you. Because you are making too many compromises, and he doesn't sound like he's doing the same amount of work.