I (24F) think my brother (27M) may have an undiagnosed personality disorder.

[Cherrywheat]

I've been nervous around him my entire life. I love him, but I have no idea how to relate with him on any level. I almost don't want to put in the effort anymore. Even though we're both adults now, I feel like I'm constantly walking on eggshells around him. Please read the whole thing (I know it's long!) and help me figure out how to treat this ongoing situation.

 

What I know..

--He was a volatile child; his most notable incident was when he almost got expelled from his kindergarten class for putting thumbtacks point side up through the seat of his teacher's chair.

 

--He was suicidal during middle school. My parents have always been hush-hush about this. I do remember constant fights, fists into walls and screaming between him and my parents. He was put into counseling at 13 (he saw the same therapist until he was 26.)

 

--When I was around 7-9 (making him 11-14), he tried to make fun of me and I turned the joke around on him which made our entire family laugh at him. Later when he found me alone he wrapped his hands around my neck, and warned me to never make him look stupid again.

 

--In his high school/college years, he had a very frightening habit of cornering people. He cornered me in a room of my house and wouldn't let me leave because he HAD to know why I was dating my then-bf at the time. I told him I didn't want to talk about it with him, and in response he got more and more hysterical and insistent. I was shaking by the time he finally let up. I learned from my mother that he had done this to her several times before.

 

--When I couldn't make it home two years ago for the holidays due to work/time constraints, he called to try to change my mind, and I repeatedly said I couldn't. In response he berated me and yelled until I was crying, and even THEN he just became angrier. He later told my parents that he didn't believe my tears were real and that I was just trying to manipulate everyone.

 

--He's very good with computers, so recently I asked him to work on my crashed laptop. However he refused to look into a system error that I seen before it crashed, and I made a joke like "If it looks like a __ error, maybe it is a __ error." He became irate, told me I was insensitive and cruel, and once again became so hysterically angry on the phone that I had to just hang up. He called my parents, and told them he was going to erase all of my files from the back-up off my laptop.

 

--He has about two close friends, and close to 40 exes per his count: he briefly dated one of my friends, and after they broke up after only a few weeks of dating she told me she thought he was a sociopath.

 

--He hates my dog which I wouldn't care about, if it weren't for the fact that he frequently makes jokes about killing her by feeding her chocolate/other toxic foods.

 

--He's very entitled; recently he cooked a large family dinner and afterwards asked for "donations". He was obviously dissatisfied with what money my parents gave him, so he brought out his shopping receipts and told everyone what he had spent in order to guilt my parents into giving more money.

 

--He has had multiple career/major changes since high school, and is into his fourth major change.

 

--He has incredible problems with empathy. He worked as a paramedic for a few years, and would post updates publicly to facebook like, "Today got called to a scene where a man tried to commit suicide by jumping and instead broke his leg. Stupid idiot didn't do it right."

 

--He has a very morbid interest in death/crimes, and posts graphic videos/pictures on facebook of tornado aftermath, stabbings, dogs being shot, and car crashes.

 

--For several years he tried to date girls much younger than him (18-19 year olds) and when they didn't give him the serious "marriage material maturity" he was expecting (ie they dumped him after a few weeks), he would send them tortuous emails/letters detailing everything that was wrong about them and the way they had treated him. He never seemed to get why these "reaming out" emails were not normal behavior.

 

Nowadays he doesn't often have meltdowns or corners people, but he always seems intense, angry and about to snap. He's incredibly harsh and controlling regarding the rules he sets about anything. In addition, everything is a competition; I've given up telling him anything about my life because he will literally say, "I can do better" and tell me how. He seems to have an intense need to "one-up" everyone, and day-to-day conversations become his soap-box for informing everyone else what their misconceptions are, regardless of the topic. Since he is constantly this terse, angry individual, I can't stand to be around him. I am on the verge of putting zero effort into this relationship since I have no idea how to broach the topic of his behavior with him. Please help.

[strongnrelaxed]

This sounds like the outcome of childhood sexual abuse. Sorry to hear this. Perhaps you can help nudge him to this.

 

When women are raped there are literally billions of dollars and dozens of options for support. Men have almost nothing - and are actually demonized for it. I can only imagine what he is going through - if my hypothesis it true.

 

Look into this. I suspect you already know this to be true - or not. Start there. And good luck.

[spiderowl]

He sounds like he lacks empathy, crosses boundaries he shouldn't and is often out of control. It sounds like he feels a lot of anger. Whether this anger came from something he would be justified in feeling angry about, is something we don't know. It could just be there because of frustration as not being able to control people or make them as predictable as he would like.

 

I don't blame you for not wanting to try and keep a relationship with him. He sounds a very difficult and threatening person. I suppose you have no idea what the counsellor thought about him, what his problem was, so really you are in the dark about whether there were any issues triggering his behaviour or not. Either way, they are not your fault or responsibility and you need to protect yourself.

[elbe]

This sounds awful. This guy isn't going to get help on his own. If you think he will harm himself or others then you need to have him committed. Otherwise, there will be no rationalizing this with him.

[Cherrywheat]

I don't know of any sexual abuse to clear his issues up at all. My dad however has shades of my brother in his personality: he's very controlling, likes to spin responsibility, and has some interpersonal issues as well. They butt heads occasionally and have ridiculous dominance battles at holidays. My parents though are good people and genuinely care for my brother and I. They've supported my brother money-wise through all of his career path changes, and even now when I try to discuss his personality problems they just say he's always been "very sensitive."

[AShogunNamedMarcus]

Yes. Your brother has a personality disorder. There doesn't need to be any type of childhood abuse for these to develop.

 

If he has anti-social personality disorder, he was probably born without the emotional part of his brain functioning properly. No remorse, no guilt, no fear, no empathy, no sadness. Only pleasure, disgust, and rage. Very narcissistic.

 

If he has borderline personality disorder, his emotions are too extreme. He rages when his ego is bruised and gets depressed when his feelings are hurt. He may cry a lot. One minute he could be nice, the next he's a lunatic having a semi-psychotic episode. Big fear of abandonment.

 

He has what look like narcissistic traits so I'd want to be familiar with that disorder as well.

 

Learn about personality disorders. The more you know what motivates his behavior, the better you can prepare yourself. It's better to not be caught off guard. Have a plan of action that will not escalate any situation you find yourself in with him. Your goal would be to make your exit without being dragged into a fight.

[Downtown]

Cherry, I agree with everything Marcus said. You are describing many of the warning signs (i.e., symptoms) for the three personality disorders (PDs) that Marcus identifies. Please keep in mind that, if your brother does have strong traits of one PD, he likely has strong traits of one or two others as well. I say this because a recent large-scale study of 35,000 American adults (pub. 2008) found that most folks having one PD also suffer from one or two others too. On top of that, they usually also suffer from at least one clinical disorder such as PTSD, bipolar, GAD, or depression.

 

Significantly, the behaviors you describe -- verbal abuse, temper tantrums, irrational anger, inability to trust, very controlling behavior, emotional immaturity, lack of impulse control, and emotional instability ("always ready to snap") -- are classic traits of BPD, which my exW has. Of course, you cannot determine whether your brother's BPD traits are so severe that they meet 100% of the diagnostic guidelines for having full-blown BPD. Only professionals can make a diagnosis.

 

You nonetheless are capable of spotting the red flags for BPD (and for NPD, and ASPD as well). There is nothing subtle about strong occurrences of traits such as always being "The Victim," verbal abuse, and temper tantrums.

 

I caution that every adult on the planet occasionally exhibits all of the BPD, NPD, and ASPD traits -- albeit at a low level if the person is healthy. This is why these PDs are said to be "spectrum disorders," which means everyone has the traits to some degree. At issue, then, is not whether your brother exhibits these traits. Of course he does. We all do.

 

Rather, at issue is whether he has most of these traits at a strong and persistent level. Not having met him, I cannot know the answer to that question. I nonetheless believe you are capable of spotting any red flags that exist if you take time to learn the warning signs.

I don't know of any sexual abuse to clear his issues up at all. My dad however has shades of my brother in his personality.

I agree with Marcus that BPD and other PDs usually develop in the absence of sexual abuse. Indeed, there is strong evidence that emotional abuse is not even required. I say this because, according to the study I mentioned above, 30% of BPDers report that they experienced no abuse or abandonment in childhood. Moreover, genetics is believed to play a major role in the development of PDs. It therefore is not surprising that one of your parents (i.e., your dad) shares many of the behavioral issues exhibited by your brother.

My parents ...just say he's always been "very sensitive."

Being "very sensitive" is one of the hallmarks of having strong BPD traits. Because BPDers have little skill at controlling their own emotions, they often experience very intense feelings that distort their perceptions of other peoples' intentions and motivations. Moreover, they have little impulse control. The result is that they often greatly overreact to harmless things that others do or say.

I feel like I'm constantly walking on eggshells around him.

That's exactly how family members usually feel when they are living with a sibling or spouse who has strong BPD traits. This is why the best-selling BPD book (targeted to those abused family members) is called Stop Walking on Eggshells.

He cornered me in a room of my house and wouldn't let me leave because he HAD to know why I was dating my then-bf at the time... he got more and more hysterical and insistent.

This "cornering" behavior is very common in BPDers (i.e., those having strong BPD traits). My BPDer exW, for example, would chase me room to room and eventually corner me, trying to get a matter resolved THIS VERY MOMENT. As I noted above, BPDers have little ability to regulate their emotions and thus do not know how to do self soothing to calm themselves down. Moreover, they lack impulse control.

 

This means that, when my fights with my exW were unresolved, I would be able to go to sleep in 15 minutes but she would be wide awake for another 4 or 5 hours before she was calm enough to sleep. Importantly, if your brother really does have strong BPD traits, he likely has the emotional development of a four year old. Like a young child, he expects all his needs to be met RIGHT NOW and is not skillful at doing self soothing when his expectations are not met.

He's very entitled.

BPDers generally feel a strong sense of entitlement, that things are owed to them. Because they have a false self image of being "The Victim," they feel that their loved ones owe them something. Trying to fill up that strong sense of neediness, however, is as futile as trying to fill the Grand Canyon with a squirt gun. It is an impossible task.

He has had multiple career/major changes since high school, and is into his fourth major change.

Because a BPDer's emotional development stopped at about age 3 or 4, a BPDer never developed a stable, strong sense of who he really is. He therefore has no strong sense of self to guide him in his objectives or career choices. The result is that, if your brother is a BPDer, he likely will not know today what he wants to do a month from now. This is one reason that a BPDer keeps attaching himself to a long series of other people. He needs someone with a strong personality to help center and guide him. Yet, when he gets EXACTLY THAT, he will feel she is trying to control him and will quickly grow resentful that she is unable to make him happy (another impossible task).

He would send [exGFs] tortuous emails/letters detailing everything that was wrong about them and the way they had treated him. He never seemed to get why these "reaming out" emails were not normal behavior.

This behavior is called "black-white thinking" and is characteristic of the all-or-nothing thinking of BPDers and narcissists. It will be evident in the way a BPDer frequently uses expressions such as "You ALWAYS..." and "You NEVER...." It also will be evident in the way he categorizes everyone as "all good" or "all bad" -- and will recategorize someone from one polar extreme to the other, in just a few seconds, based solely on a minor comment or infraction.

 

The result is the sort of behavior you describe for your brother, where he idealizes his GFs for a few months (4 to 6 months is typical) and then demonizes her when his infatuation evaporates and he starts driving her away with his abusive behavior. Amazingly, this flip from her being perceived as his perfect soul mate to her being seen as the devil incarnate can occur in less than a minute.

 

The reason for this B-W thinking, if your brother is a BPDer, is that his own self image is too fragile for him to be comfortable with having strong mixed feelings -- or having to deal with ambiguities, uncertainties, dualities, or other grey areas in interpersonal relationships. He therefore has a powerful desire to shoehorn everyone (including himself) into a black or white box.

He seems to have an intense need to "one-up" everyone, and day-to-day conversations become his soap-box for informing everyone else what their misconceptions are, regardless of the topic.

This behavior is one of the narcissistic traits that Marcus was referring to.

I am on the verge of putting zero effort into this relationship since I have no idea how to broach the topic of his behavior with him.

If he has strong traits of BPD or NPD, telling him about them is extremely unlikely to help. It is rare for a BPDer or NPDer to have the self awareness and ego strength needed to recognize his issues and to confront them. Instead, what happens is that they will project the accusation back onto you. Because these folks have very low self esteem, their subconscious minds protect them from seeing too much of the truth. They do this by projecting hurtful thoughts and feelings onto their loved ones. Because projection occurs entirely at the subconscious level, the person will absolutely be convinced -- at a conscious level -- that the projection is true. The result is that, if you tell a BPDer or narcissist he has strong traits of a disorder, he almost certainly will immediately believe that YOU are the one with the disorder.

 

As to your inclination to put "zero effort into this relationship," I will only say that -- if your brother is a BPDer or narcissist (or both) -- it is impossible to build up a store of appreciation in him that you can later rely on during hard times. With a BPDer like my exW, for example, it's always "What have you done for me lately?"

 

Like any young child, BPDers experience such a flood of intense feelings that their reality is whatever intense feeling they are experiencing at the moment. Those feelings are so intense that the BPDer is convinced they MUST be true, no matter what the evidence is and no matter what you've done to help them in the past.

 

If you would like more information on how to deal with a BPDer, I suggest you check out the BPDfamily.com forum, which has a message board (L5) about managing a relationship with a BPDer family member. I also suggest you read more about BPD traits to see if most of them sound very familiar. An easy place to start reading is my description of those red flags in my posts at Crazy I think but I love her anyway. If that description rings some bells, I would be glad to discuss them with you. Take care, Cherry.

[AShogunNamedMarcus]

Downtown knows his stuff.

 

I have borderline personality disorder and avoidant personality disorder. Also Inattentive ADD. I've broken away from the BPD to where I don't have daily emotional outbursts anymore. Those outbursts are so rare now, I can count how many times a year it happens on one hand missing fingers. Even then I try to handle it without causing any trouble.

 

I don't think it's the norm and it took years to change.

 

When I first was diagnosed, I basically dismissed it. Years later I began looking at things differently and was able to accept it. It was even more years before I had an acceptable level of control over my actions. I don't yell at, threaten, manipulate, or abuse people. Well, I yell at bad drivers still.

 

The emotions still come and go, but I tell myself not to do anything stupid as a response to something I perceive as a threat.

 

Based on your post, your brother doesn't sound anywhere near the point where he could accept a diagnosis and find ways to better himself. For BPD there is a therapy called DBT that is supposed to be effective. I'm actually going to try it soon.

 

I don't think there is any effective treatment for anti-social PD. These are the truly soulless beings that most normal people question how anyone can be capable of doing the things they do.

[Cherrywheat]

Thank you everyone, especially Downtown and Marcus. I'm thinking right now that he's between borderline and narcissistic personality disorder--can you two think of anything big traits that would differentiate between those two traits, or is it possible he's on the spectrum of possibly having both?

 

Also, what have you found is the best way to interact with someone who has a PD like narcissistic or BPD? I find just being passive and agreeable generally works in keeping him calm, but it increases MY anxiety because I have to keep quiet about obvious bad behavior and agree to demands I think are ridiculous. (For example, I had to call back to apologize for the computer incidence out of fear he'd erase my backup, and in response he berated me for another 10 minutes.)

 

It's hard to treat him like he has a personality disorder when he obviously doesn't think he has one, and it's difficult to see him like an extra sensitive child when he's my older brother.

 

The biggest mystery is he says his current very shy, insecure girlfriend can "Call him out when he's being a douche" and that he likes that about her. I wonder what she says that she can do this, since his entire family has to tiptoe around him.

[Cherrywheat]

Forgot to mention: He's also ridiculously assertive about everything and seems unflappably confident, even though he probably isn't. I'm not assertive and have issues with self-confidence so I feel like I get railroaded in conversations with him.

 

AShogunNamedMarcus: You mentioned you gained control over your emotional outbursts. Do you still feel the anger and just have to stop the response? I'm wondering if my brother tries occasionally to stop his outbursts, because when I saw him a few days ago he briefly yelled at me before he suddenly quieted down and said a quick "I'm sorry" like he knew he was expected to. His body language/eyes still looked furious and he shot a few barbs at me afterwards which is why I ask.

Edited December 2, 2013 by Cherrywheat

[AShogunNamedMarcus]

Forgot to mention: He's also ridiculously assertive about everything and seems unflappably confident, even though he probably isn't. I'm not assertive and have issues with self-confidence so I feel like I get railroaded in conversations with him.

 

AShogunNamedMarcus: You mentioned you gained control over your emotional outbursts. Do you still feel the anger and just have to stop the response? I'm wondering if my brother tries occasionally to stop his outbursts, because when I saw him a few days ago he briefly yelled at me before he suddenly quieted down and said a quick "I'm sorry" like he knew he was expected to. His body language/eyes still looked furious and he shot a few barbs at me afterwards which is why I ask.

 

I still feel anger, but I don't get near the point of "seeing red" anymore. Like I said, I don't think it is the norm. I have certain things that I've been doing for the last 10 years that have helped me. I was your brother's age when I started. No way to know if it would help anyone else. My 3 disorders plus certain characteristics inherited from my parents all play into how I'm able to think. My mother is very empathic and my father is very introverted and skeptical/critical minded. The high value I have always placed on fairness helped me stop treating people unfairly or disrespectfully. Prescription meds and talk therapy failed so it was either experiment or completely give in to the disorder.

 

When I was full blown, my reactions were always knee-jerk and unfiltered. My ADD helped me blurt things out without thinking them through sometimes, especially if was upset and my guard down. I have stopped myself mid-sentence when snapping at someone, but in the moment it was because I knew that I was being a dick and the other person didn't deserve it. Sometimes I'm off a million miles away in my head thinking about something that upsets me, then when someone talks to me I'm still feeling it and bite their head off because of it. Completely not fair.

 

Maybe I'm able to stop my response because I don't feel that intensity anymore.

 

Unless something major changes his life, he'll have trouble facing it and being critical of himself enough to change. And that's if it is even BPD. For NPD and ASPD there isn't much anyone can do.

 

These disorders can co-exist. I read an account of someone who claimed to be a sociopath(aspd) who later developed BPD symptoms. So he was unemotional and over-emotional at the same time which is a strange combination.

 

This may not be the best example of the difference from NPD, but BPD people will seek to destroy things when angry. They may also injure themselves on purpose to release emotional pain.

[Downtown]

I'm thinking right now that he's between borderline and narcissistic personality disorder--can you two think of anything big traits that would differentiate between those two traits?

As I understand it, Cherry, there are three major differences between BPD and NPD. First, whereas NPDers are emotionally stable, BPDers are not. This instability is why BPDers flip back and forth between loving and hating you and do much more of the push-you-away and pull-you-back behavior. That flip usually occurs in ten seconds based on some innocuous thing you said or did. Once a person has been subjected to this cycle a dozen times -- being alternately adored and hated -- she starts feeling like an addict who is alternating between heroine highs one day and heroine withdrawal pains the next.

 

This is why a BPDer relationship is considered so addictive and toxic. And this is why the most distinguishing hallmark of a BPDer relationship is strong feeling of the nonBPD partner that she is losing her mind. It therefore is very common for the partners to go running to a therapist to find out if they are going crazy. Although the partners of narcissists also are treated abusively and may feel like they are going crazy, this is less likely to be seen in NPD relationships (but BPD, NPD, and ASPD are all associated with this crazy-making behavior to some extent).

 

Second, although NPDers also do the push-pull (but to a lesser extent), they do not do it for the same reason as BPDers do. That is, they don't do it because of altering between the abandonment fear and engulfment fear like BPDers. Rather, the NPDers typically do it because, once you return to them, they lose interest in you and start taking you for granted -- i.e., they do not feel engulfed like the BPDers. Like the BPDers, NPDers can rage in response to your comments. Yet, the rage usually is in response to your disagreeing with them, thus refusing to validate their false image of being a person who is always right. In contrast, the BPDers get furious when you say anything triggering their two great fears: abandonment and engulfment.

 

Third, whereas untreated BPDers typically are caring individuals who actually can love you (albeit in an immature manner), NPDers are not truly caring and do not love you. Instead, they consider you a useful object when you are supporting their false self image and a non-useful object when you are not supportive.

 

Fourth, as Marcus observed, there is no treatment for full-blown narcissists (or sociopaths) that is widely recognized as being successful. I've never heard of any program being successful for that purpose. BPD, in contrast, is successfully treated (not cured) by therapists throughout the USA and Europe. Hence, the reason BPD has such a bad reputation as being "hard to treat" is not due to the lack of good programs but, rather, due to the lack of attendance. Sadly, it is rare to find a BPDer like Marcus who has the self awareness and ego strength necessary to be willing to undergo treatment for many years.

Is it possible he's on the spectrum of possibly having both [bPD and NPD]?

Yes. Indeed, if he has full-blown BPD, there is almost a 50% chance of him also having NPD. This is not surprising because, as I noted above, most BPDers have two or three PDs, not just one. With respect to narcissism, the 2008 study I mentioned found that 47% of the male BPDers also have full-blown lifetime NPD -- and that 34% of the male narcissists also have full-blown lifetime BPD. See Table 3 at Prevalence, Correlates, Disability, and Comorbidity of DSM-IV Borderline Personality Disorder: Results from the Wave 2 National Epidemiologic Survey on Alcohol and Related Conditions.

 

If this co-occurrence of PDs seems strange, please keep in mind that they do not constitute separate diseases. Indeed, PDs are not believed to be diseases at all. Rather, PDs are simply groups of behavioral traits that tend to occur together and that therapists often see occurring together in the clients they treat. One reason for the co-occurrence of several PDs in the same client seems to be that the APA has created too many PD categories. After all, it seems unreasonable for a person to have several personality disorders when he has only one personality.

 

This is one reason why the committee that recommended changes in DSM-IV had strongly recommended that the existing ten PDs be reduced to only six. Last December, however, the APA general membership rejected that recommendation. Although such a change is needed, the membership felt more empirical studies and testing should be done before making substantial changes in the PDs diagnostic criteria.

The biggest mystery is he says his current very shy, insecure girlfriend can "Call him out when he's being a douche" and that he likes that about her. I wonder what she says that she can do this, since his entire family has to tiptoe around him.

This is no mystery if your brother has strong BPD traits. During the courtship period, a BPDer is so infatuated with his lover that he's convinced she is the perfect soul mate. His infatuation is so intense that it holds his two great fears (abandonment and engulfment) at bay. Hence, until the infatuation starts to evaporate -- typically at 4 to 6 months into the relationship -- the lover has great freedom to say or do many things without fear of triggering those two fears.

 

The result is pretty much the same with narcissists, although the reason is much different. They do not have those two fears. They nonetheless do the infatuation, which make's the GF's opinion extremely valuable and her opinions thus feed the narcissist's great hunger for validation of his false self image. As the infatuation wanes, however, the narcissist will cease to value her opinions and thus may start looking elsewhere for validation.

What have you found is the best way to interact with someone who has a PD like narcissistic or BPD?

I interact with them pretty much the same way I do with anyone else. The vast majority of narcissists and BPDers are high functioning, which means they generally interact well with folks who are not real close to them. Although they are not good marriage material if untreated, they nonetheless are generally very productive members of society.

 

Indeed, I find HF BPDers to generally be more fun to be around than other people. That is, if I had to choose between going to a party with BPDers and a party with "Nons" (nonBPDers), I would choose the BPDers every time. Moreover, I have a narcissist colleague at work whom I spend more time around than anyone one else. Granted, he won't be a good friend to me and he can't be relied on to help me when I need it. He nonetheless is one of the most entertaining and interesting people in my office. I therefore try to accept people -- and enjoy them -- for what they are, being careful to adjust my expectations to be realistic about their limitations. We all have our limitations.

Edited December 3, 2013 by Downtown