Affair coming up in arguments

[janedoe67]

I think that most repentant WW's would agree with you, alve again.

 

Doesn't mean we aren't still inconveniently human enough to hurt.

 

I assume that is one of the reasons CD is posting for support.

 

The fact that we feel hurt doesn't mean we have forgotten we deserve it.

 

We'll never forget that.

[compulsivedancer]

Add to that your comment about enjoying anal sex with other man but don't feel you have to make it available to your husband who is still struggling with the shame and humiliation "Your" actions have brought into his life.

 

For clarity, since you've brought it up twice, and someone else mentioned it too, I'm generally not a fan of anal sex, whether it's with H or OM.

[aliveagain]

I think that most repentant WW's would agree with you, alve again.

 

Doesn't mean we aren't still inconveniently human enough to hurt.

 

I assume that is one of the reasons CD is posting for support.

 

The fact that we feel hurt doesn't mean we have forgotten we deserve it.

 

We'll never forget that.

 

Jane, no one deserves the pain of infidelity from either side. Just suggesting understanding and patience. I have never cheated on someone I loved so I don't understand that pain. I have been on the other end of it and the hollow gut wrenching rip your heart out, hopelessness, black hole, drop to your knees pain I do understand. I recovered from the loss of both my parents quicker. Sometimes you just can't control the anger when it hits you even though you know it's happening. At that moment your almost waiting for the wrong thing to be said so you can finish what the infidelity started, the absolute annihilation of your relationship, you just don't give a sh*t at that moment. Fortunately those moments pass and all is normal again. You can never know when or what will trigger them, they happen on their own. That isn't me when they surface, that's me in protect and defense mode, no different than when a stranger attacks my family.

Edited November 28, 2013 by aliveagain

[aliveagain]

For clarity, since you've brought it up twice, and someone else mentioned it too, I'm generally not a fan of anal sex, whether it's with H or OM.

 

You posted it in I think your very first post which seems to have disappeared? Am I wrong?

[compulsivedancer]

You posted it in I think your very first post which seems to have disappeared? Am I wrong?

 

My first post? On LS? I think the only time I discussed anal sex was my thread on why the WS will do things with the OM she won't do with the BS. The thread got a little crazy, though, and a bit confusing (thanks a lot, road!). I started it right before my H posted his tread, so it got thread jacked a bit, in addition to road getting a little mixed up on the details.

 

My first post was on one of Oldshirt's threads, I think. I forget the topic.

[Realist3]

Intense anger (of the variety one experiences after finding out wifey has been having hot anal with another dude) is highly irrational and unreasonable. This is the price OP must pay for her sordid affair.

 

Anal, vaginal, or oral it doesn't make a difference. Either you can handle it or you can't. Here is the bottom line. She had sex with someone else, either you can get over it or you can't. If you can't it does not give you the right to abuse someone over it.

[Realist3]

My MOW has had sex with her husband in every way possible. What does it matter? Nothing. Do I hold that over her head? Nope.

 

I get it, some people are just wired differently where they can't ever accept that the person they think they own had sex with someone else. You can be mad about it all you want, it still doesn't mean someone has to take abuse for it in the form of your anger and inability to control said anger.

[aliveagain]

My MOW has had sex with her husband in every way possible. What does it matter? Nothing. Do I hold that over her head? Nope.

 

I get it, some people are just wired differently where they can't ever accept that the person they think they own had sex with someone else. You can be mad about it all you want, it still doesn't mean someone has to take abuse for it in the form of your anger and inability to control said anger.

 

Who said anything about owning anyone on this thread? I never owned my wife, slavery was abolished way before I was born. She is free to be with anyone she wants to now, the courts cleared up that small technicality for me, just as it will for your wife one day. Do you think you might see it a little differently if it was your wife that was another mans play thing?

[Realist3]

That is her choice. Me being upset about it is not going to change one thing.

[Realist3]

The larger point being is that some BS's get so hung up and dwell on something that is rather trivial and use that as an excuse to abuse the WS months and years down the line.

 

So many here have said to CD, "just accept it he is angry." That is a huge load bravo sierra.

[Realist3]

CD decided to stay with her husband. If all the other things meant that much to her she would have left. She didn't. That in and of itself is far more important than wasting years dwelling on that fact that it took place.

[anne1707]

CD decided to stay with her husband. If all the other things meant that much to her she would have left. She didn't. That in and of itself is far more important than wasting years dwelling on that fact that it took place.

 

Do you realistically think that the WS staying is enough for reconciliation and that the BS should just shut up and put up? Because that is the way you make it sound

[Realist3]

Do you realistically think that the WS staying is enough for reconciliation and that the BS should just shut up and put up? Because that is the way you make it sound

 

I'm saying the BS doesn't deserve the right to hurl months and years of abuse on the WS for their indiscretion. Either get over it or don't, either way is fine. But do not sit here and say I can treat you like crap just because I am still angry a year down the road. Grow up, is what I am saying. Playing the victim card is just as tired as the ace card.

[anne1707]

I'm saying the BS doesn't deserve the right to hurl months and years of abuse on the WS for their indiscretion. Either get over it or don't, either way is fine. But do not sit here and say I can treat you like crap just because I am still angry a year down the road. Grow up, is what I am saying. Playing the victim card is just as tired as the ace card.

 

You really just don't get it at all as to how much an affair hurts people. That pain is not about playing the victim. They are the victim. They have been treated like crap by their WS. Something any decent grown up would recognise and understand.

[AlwaysGrowing]

When a WS asks for R, they are asking the BS to ACCEPT the disrespect/emotional abuse. Quite a request

 

A reasonable person, would accept that they were the ones that caused the pain, and there MIGHT...just MIGHT be residual aftereffects...like all cases of abuse/trauma. And being that they are asking for such a concession from the BS, idk...maybe they might afford that very same thing to the BS, when the BS is drowning in the pain.

 

But hey...I am just a reasonable human here.

[HopingAgain]

I'm saying the BS doesn't deserve the right to hurl months and years of abuse on the WS for their indiscretion. Either get over it or don't, either way is fine. But do not sit here and say I can treat you like crap just because I am still angry a year down the road. Grow up, is what I am saying. Playing the victim card is just as tired as the ace card.

 

It really sounds like you completely lack the capacity to feel empathy or compassion for the pain of others.

[BeholdtheMan]

For clarity, since you've brought it up twice, and someone else mentioned it too, I'm generally not a fan of anal sex, whether it's with H or OM.

Right...but you gave it up to OM while withholding it from H, am I right?

 

Whether you're a "fan" of taking it up the chocolate highway is neither here nor there

[peaksandvalleys]

The larger point being is that some BS's get so hung up and dwell on something that is rather trivial and use that as an excuse to abuse the WS months and years down the line.

 

So many here have said to CD, "just accept it he is angry." That is a huge load bravo sierra.

 

 

I think I find this offensive. There is no excuse for abuse of any kind. But sex with some else without my permission is nowhere near trivial. It is not a hang nail or a spilled milk.

[BeholdtheMan]

The larger point being is that some BS's get so hung up and dwell on something that is rather trivial and use that as an excuse to abuse the WS months and years down the line.

 

So many here have said to CD, "just accept it he is angry." That is a huge load bravo sierra.

I find it amazing how you totally lack the ability to put yourself in the betrayed spouse's shoes

 

In your little fantasy world, reconciliation is the process by which a betrayed spouse "get over" the betrayal within a month or two. Do you realise that reconciliation almost never happens like this. Reconciliation is a painful and lengthy process, especially if the betrayed spouse genuinely loved the cheater. The part in bold is something you don't seem to grasp.

 

Do you realise how out of whack with reality your views are? People aren't robots. They feel intense emotions. Your whole stance seems to be "if the betrayed spouse agrees to try reconciliation, that means the betrayed spouse is now obligated to keep his (or her) anger in check". Sounds nice in theory, but do you have any idea how hard it is to keep that anger in check?

 

Here's a little hint. The best way to defuse anger is to sympathise with it and accept it (unless it gets abusive). You'll only stoke that anger if you say stuff like "we agreed to reconciliation, your anger is counterproductive". On the contrary, bottling up that anger is even worse.

 

When a betrayed spouse agrees to reconcile, he (or she) isn't agreeing that he'll top expressing the anger he naturally feels. He's agreeing to try reconcile despite his anger. He's agreeing to try to cope with his anger, not turn it off.

[AlwaysGrowing]

The hardest concept for a WS to understand and live...is that the BS pain belongs to the BS. When a BS speaks their pain, it is unfair and really quite selfish for a WS to now take that pain and say..."I don't like how your pain makes me feel", or "rehashing your pain makes me feel bad, so stop it, it makes me feel like you are abusing me with it".."stop throwing your pain in my face". It is selfish to take it that way.

 

If someone is in pain, acknowledge it. Don't turn it into your pain. Talk about a trump card!!!!!! It is taking the victim from the victim.

 

A mature person, an emotional mature person...can let the other person feel that pain and not take a defensive stance, they lean in, they listen, they acknowledge, they might even AGREE. Even if they were the ones that caused the pain.

[janedoe67]

Right...but you gave it up to OM while withholding it from H, am I right?

 

Whether you're a "fan" of taking it up the chocolate highway is neither here nor there

 

I gotta say.....THIS is where I start to wonder if the motive is help and perspective or just.....letting fly

 

Up the chocolate highway? Tell in what universe those kinds of phrases aid the recovery of the OP's marriage. It may help the person who gets in the crass dig....but CD and her hubby? I'm thinking no.

 

And for the record, I did not ask my husband to "accept" my A. I hoed he would forgive me one day and that I could help him heal....with the full understanding that he had every right to say "hell no!" Because of my actions.

 

Chocolate highway.....which marriage recovery book is THAT in, I wonder.

[AlwaysGrowing]

I gotta say.....THIS is where I start to wonder if the motive is help and perspective or just.....letting fly

 

Up the chocolate highway? Tell in what universe those kinds of phrases aid the recovery of the OP's marriage. It may help the person who gets in the crass dig....but CD and her hubby? I'm thinking no.

 

And for the record, I did not ask my husband to "accept" my A. I hoed he would forgive me one day and that I could help him heal....with the full understanding that he had every right to say "hell no!" Because of my actions.

 

Chocolate highway.....which marriage recovery book is THAT in, I wonder.

 

 

You are right, no value in posts like that.

 

One has to accept something before they forgive. You can not forgive what you do not acknowledge what you are forgiving. And for a BS, they very much have to accept that the WS betrayed them. That is not to say, they are accepting betrayal in the future. They are accepting and possibly working towards forgiving the betrayals that already happened.

 

For me, I have accepted that certain abuse happened to me. I do not however forgive those individuals. With acceptance, I could acknowledge that it did indeed happen, and processed it. Forgive? Not gonna happen.

 

I am an advocate for children in my real life, I was a child when most of the abuse happened...and it is simply unforgivable to me.

[ThatMan]

We are going to part ways here. We have had several multi page threads on this topic, and of course I fall on the side of it is not abuse. Abuse is something that is done purposefully to hurt another person.

 

As it pertains to this topic though one could argue that the continual beating the WS over the head with the affair is a form of abuse, specifically mental.

Excuse you?!

Do you even understand the definition of abuse?!

 

This is not the proper platform to shill out your stupid and incorrect beliefs. Look, we all have opinions we're free to voice. But it's screwed up to share such a fringe belief on a topic encompassing horrific acts. You should be ashamed of yourself.

 

Abuse is not the simple act of an intent to hurt. Abuse is the deliberate attempt to foster a sense of the destructive feelings of fear, obligation, and guilt. Abuse is cruelty and violence. The heck with affairs: There will be plenty of hurt and blame in any relationship. That's a perfectly normal aspect of a healthy relationship. Chances are that you will hurt coworkers and strangers throughout your life, unintentionally or not, let alone hurt someone from within an intimate relationship with so much shared. What matters in any relationship is where you go from there.

 

You are free to describe an affair itself as traumatic, painful, and other adjectives. But it is typically not abusive in most situations, although it can be. An affair may also lead to abuse, and is likely to lead to severe trauma that a betrayed spouse must work through, but not necessarily involve abuse. Likewise, simply expressing that your hurt, and begin flailing around in pain is also not abuse, but it can lead to it.

 

The irony here is that you, Realist3, seem to be a proponent for abuse. People are allowed to have feelings and express them. When you dismiss the feelings of other people, you are invalidating them, treating them as though they're in the wrong for feeling a certain way. Invalidation is a form of emotional abuse. Invalidation is subtle and it screws people up. Contrary to your beliefs, people have every right to express their feelings, even when it inconveniences you. And you've done nothing but demonstrate a very jaded outlook on the meaning of continual beating when it comes to people who simply express their pain. Anyone is in the right for feeling hurt after betrayal and to express that hurt. You have responsibilities to decide for yourself what to do from there. Stop placing the burden of your own responsibilities on other people through dismissal. Anyone would need to heal from a trauma at their own pace, not your own. Stop using this website as a platform to mention something that you are clearly unequipped to discuss. It's pathetic and very unbecoming.

Edited November 29, 2013 by ThatMan

[JustJoe]

No I did not say those things.

 

I have said his anger is understandable.

 

I have said that CD should try not to react to his anger when this happens

 

I have said that if it continues long term, it is not healthy for him or CD. I doubt anyone would disagree that being angry for years is a good thing.

 

I have said IC and MC should be considered if need be. But after they have talked together on this - i.e. they both agree to do counselling.

 

 

 

 

I get it Joe. You don't like me (I have not got a clue why though - some posters I understand because they are/were a BS, but you?? I just don't get it). Just put me on ignore if I irritate you so much.

Anne, I don't know why you insist on making these things a personality clash between us. I have nothing against you, just your advice, which is predicated on your own rather unusual experiences. You still work with your AP, and you have been very proactive in pushing for Reconciliation. This has worked for you, BUT I don't think it will work for the majority of posters. People recover from affairs at different paces, and that pace is usually set by the BS. CD must realize that she should not try to force that pace, in any way. Her husband is not being abusive, so she should take his anger as deserved medicine, and withhold acting on it for as long as it takes for him to get it out of his system.

As far as liking or disliking you, I don't know you from Hogan's Goat. You seem to be trying to help other posters and for that I applaud you, but you need to realize that "one size does not fit all" and that the advice you give may not be in the best interest of the poster involved. After all, we are here to help CD, not argue amongst ourselves.

[BeingMe]

Wow, so many things to think about:

 

1. A BS goes through the cycle of grief, whether they R or not. They are grieving the loss of the marriage they thought they had and the spouse they thought they had and trying to reach acceptance of the A. The cycle of grief typically takes between 1-5 years, yes, YEARS. R/D adds an extra dimension with the stresses and strains of either trying to work it through together, or getting through the D process.

 

2. The cycle of grief goes through stages of shock, anger, depression and acceptance. Once out of shock, people can bounce around between anger and depression for some time,especially if they don't feel emotionally safe (ie, if their WS has not changed, or if other life events crop up). Any new A information takes the BS back to the shock stage. Each time that happens, it gets harder and harder for the BS to feel safe enough to move forward.

 

3. Now add into that mix, triggers. Triggers could be anything, anything at all: a smell, a sound, a texture, a visual reminder etc. A trigger is a mental reminder of the A and it is a traumatic experience for the BS because it comes out of nowhere, in the middle of normal life. One minute you're walking down the street, the next TRIGGER and bam, it all hits you again. Many BS also get mind movies, especially during sex, of their WS having sex with their AP. It's an emotionally scarring experience.

 

4. Then for some BS, their WS don't fess up fully, straight away (kudos and thanks to those that do). Some WS not only deny, but try to make their BS doubt their own judgement, allowing them (sometimes deliberately encouraging them) to blame themselves or think they are going mad. This is called gas lighting and it IS abusive.

 

5. Some WS only tell their BS the truth little by little, usually when confronted with something they can't deny, over months or years. This is called trickle truth. This causes the BS to feel the pain over and over again, each time a new piece of information is brought into the light. This too IS abusive because the WS sees the devastating pain of the BS, but allows them to keep experiencing it, to try and protect themselves (the WS). The WS often does this fearing that if the full truth was known, it would immediately destroy the marriage. The worst thing is, trickle truth often does 'work' in that way, but it also makes R much harder and is immensely traumatic to the BS.

 

6.And then there's blameshifting: "You were causing me so much pain, so I had an A" and "I don't want to talk about the A, I want to talk about the problems in our marriage first" and "If I'd been happier in our marriage I wouldn't have had an affair" and "I only did it because you keep doing [insert reason here] and I felt [insert emotion here]". This too can be abusive...if the BS starts belieiving it. You see, all those kind of reasons are not true. The WS makes a choice to have an A. They know it is wrong, that's why they hide it. If they are really unhappy in their marriage they can leave before having an A. The WS chooses not to, it is not the fault of the BS, but something within the WS (often conflict avoidance, FOO issues or a personality disorder) allows them to make that choice. Blaming the BS for something that they chose to do, IS abusive. You see, if the BS believes that and they try and R, the BS will be forever walking on eggshells, thinking that if they ever get it wrong, the WS will have another A. The BS will be living in fear. That is no way to live. Now there will doubtless be marriage issues to work on as well, but they need to be separated from the A and A issues need to be dealt with first, so that the BS feels emotionally safe and so that dealing with the marriage issues don't feel like blameshifting.

 

7. Some BS experience something very similar to PTSD. I did. I know this because I have also had PTSD for a physically traumatic event. The only difference that I experienced was mind movies instead of flashbacks, but the mind movies were just as intense and disturbing. Telling a BS that they need to 'get over it' is ridiculous.

 

8. BS need time and help to process everything. To help them reach acceptance, they need to keep double checking facts and questioning things over and over. The aim is for it to become 'real' to them, for them to be able to reach acceptance. You see, the WS knows everything about the A and the timespan in their marriage. The BS does not, they are trying to understand what was really happening in their marriage during that time, and the BS does not have all of the information, so they are trying to fill in the gaps and make sense of it all.

 

9. Some BS and/or WS try to rugsweep the A. This doesn't solve anything.Nothing really changes and the WS is likely to do it again. A BS who is in a rugsweeping situation may find themselves getting angry and bringing up the A because they haven't felt able to really deal with it,don't feel emotionally safe and/or have 'stuffed' down their emotions, which often roar up when there's an emotional argument about something else. The answer to this is to stop rug sweeping and start honestly dealing with the A.

 

10. There's probably more that I have forgotten to put here....

 

11. But none of that allows the BS to be abusive in return. It is NOT abusive to keep bringing up the A, that is part of dealing with it. Dealing with it can also involve bringing it out into the open so that the WS has to face the consequences of their choices. However, that does not mean that it can be used by the BS to manipulate the WS to get whatever they want in any decision. If it comes up as a 'trump card' in an unrelated argument, the WS needs to address the A with the BS, but it does not mean that the WS has to let the BS call the shots on the unrelated thing. That kind of dynamic is where MC can really help.