anne1707 Posted November 25, 2013 Posted November 25, 2013 I saw this post in another forum and I did not want to comment on it there as it would have been a t/j I'm not about to make this forum a religious one, but since you stated you are an atheist then I guess you really shouldn't care about marriage or what is right or wrong or infidelity for that matter. Where does your value system come from? BTW marriage in our society stems from a religious mandate. Now as an atheist. I find the above viewpoint just completely at odds with mine. It implies that my vows mean nothing to me, that fidelity is not important, and that my value system must be pretty suspect. It implies to me that the only proper marriage is a Christian one and that anything outside that is fake. However my marriage is incredibly important to me. My husband and the life we have together, the commitment we have made to each other through our (non-Christian) vows is right at the heart of who I am. I know more than most how infidelity is wrong and beyond damaging. I also reckon I have a pretty good value system which does not have to be borne out of religious doctrine for it to be valid, sound and balanced. I am interested in what others think. Do you agree with the quote that suggests atheists are not really going to care about marriage or do you feel that this is wrong and that as an atheist there is no good reason at all why you would not commit yourself to one person through marriage and mean it just as much (or more even) than a Christian. 4
melell Posted November 25, 2013 Posted November 25, 2013 Atheists care about lots of things, based on their own perspectives/philosophies etc. That might be socially constructed, might have come from early conditioning, might have been influenced by a random dream etc. In present day society, due to secularizing processes, marriage is defined in legal terms- the union between man and woman. Unless we have a religious authority in place (which we don't) then no, it is not religious in that respect. The poster was wrong. But ultimately I think marriage is not confined to religious definitions at all, its meaning has evolved so much through modernity/post modernity, the scholarly study of society recognizes this 100%. The poster was also wrong in thinking that the moral values only come from religion. That is incredibly inaccurate. I am not surprised that post errked you. 4
salparadise Posted November 25, 2013 Posted November 25, 2013 The poster was also wrong in thinking that the moral values only come from religion. That is incredibly inaccurate. I agree. It is true, however, that morality, ethics, and law in modern society is based largely in Christian principles. Perhaps you could argue that a fundamental morality existed prior to Christianity and was formalized through religious teachings. The irony is that over time, the religious establishment hasn't proven to be any more moral than society as a whole. There are many people whose desire to do the right thing is inherent and not based on belief on a deity.
greenfairie Posted November 25, 2013 Posted November 25, 2013 I used to be an atheist but I always loved the concept of marriage too. I always admired marriages that lasted for decades, like my grandparents and parents. I knew I always wanted something like that.. I don't know who doesn't want that looking at married couples… except for the cynic people lol. Women have to procreate, and marriage is part of the deal IF THEY want it to be… We have all seen couples that are just "boyfriend and girlfriend" for decades and they make it work. It just depends on everyone's beliefs and what they want… it takes two to tango too….
lollipopspot Posted November 25, 2013 Posted November 25, 2013 Do you agree with the quote that suggests atheists are not really going to care about marriage or do you feel that this is wrong and that as an atheist there is no good reason at all why you would not commit yourself to one person through marriage and mean it just as much (or more even) than a Christian. Marriage existed pre-Christianity and in non-Christian cultures, so it's just silly to think that only Christians care about marriage. To me the person who wrote that is a rank idiot with a lack of imagination, to think that a value system can only come from Christianity. In fact my experience is that most Christians are pretty immoral: they've got every excuse under the sun and quote scripture to justify animal abuse. 3
AMusing Posted November 25, 2013 Posted November 25, 2013 Marriage existed pre-Christianity and in non-Christian cultures, so it's just silly to think that only Christians care about marriage. To me the person who wrote that is a rank idiot with a lack of imagination, to think that a value system can only come from Christianity. In fact my experience is that most Christians are pretty immoral: they've got every excuse under the sun and quote scripture to justify animal abuse. I don't get how people can think marriage began as a religious (let alone Christian) tradition. Honestly, I don't understand how so many Christians feel like they "own" the tradition now. Marriage in the US is NOT a religious phenomenon. It may be tied to a religious ceremony for a lot of people, but at it's base it's still entirely a secular contract. I think people like that are ignorant, not idiots. They are taught that atheists are truly amoral, because the ethical compass inside us is God and by rejecting God we are rejecting goodness. Fear of atheists and isolation from other belief structures (or lack thereof) keep them from understanding the truth. Rather than be mocked, they need to be shown that they are mistaken: atheists are governed by the same basic feelings of right/wrong, empathy, and kindness as everyone else, because those are qualities of humanity that are seated far deeper than religion is. The desire to find a mate, commit to partnering with him for life, and then celebrate our love and commitment with family and friends is not a religious desire--it's a human one. Moreover, I'd argue that an atheist's promise to love you for life is a profound one: to us, this life is all we've got. We don't believe in some unending soul, so when we say we'll love you our entire lives, we are promising to love you for the entirety of our existence. We aren't good because we're afraid god will "get us" otherwise, nor to we commit to our partners because a religion tells us we must; we do it because the same threads of decency and humanity run through us all. 5
janedoe67 Posted November 25, 2013 Posted November 25, 2013 I ma not an atheist, but the atheists I know all still live by their own personal moral code, which always includes (for the people I know) things like honesty, loyalty, kindness, care, etc. Their values may not be based on the Bible, as mine are, but they definitely have values, and valuing their marriages is one of them. The sad thing is that even among Christians not only are there variation as to what is important and what is not, there is a growing epidemic of Christians in name only who just flat do whatever they want to do anyway. And it is true that certain aspect of honor have been existent in all civilizations, even those without the Christian concept of God. So it's kind of silly to deduce that because someone does not believe in God, they do not have values. 1
JamesM Posted November 25, 2013 Posted November 25, 2013 Of course, atheists will value marriage. And honestly, they may value it more than many religious people. Based on the Judeo-Christian belief, marriage was instituted by God (hence, still before Christianity). But this does not mean society as a whole doesn't benefit or respect the marriage institution. I think that I understand where that poster is coming from, but I will assume that it was stated wrongly. While an atheist will probably not appreciate the origins of marriage, this does not mean that he or she will not honor the commitment of marriage.
Elliotte Posted November 25, 2013 Posted November 25, 2013 I've had very intelligent, usually non-judgmental religious friends of mine bring up this idea that "if you're not religious, then how can you possibly have values?" idea to me quite a few times, and it always blows my mind. Whether it is about marriage or raising my children, it is a very odd concept to me that some people believe the only way to have values is to learn them from a holy book! I am agnostic, and am happily married. We had an officiant marry us in a park we loved, and we had a reception with family and friends we loved. She took my last name because we valued that. We are happily married, and love being husband and wife. The idea that we are any less happy, loving, committed, and hard working in our marriage than any other couple due just to lack of religion is completely ridiculous in my opinion. 5
ClemsonTigers Posted November 25, 2013 Posted November 25, 2013 Rather than be mocked, they need to be shown that they are mistaken: atheists are governed by the same basic feelings of right/wrong, empathy, and kindness as everyone else, because those are qualities of humanity that are seated far deeper than religion is. Christians need to be aware that this "showing us that we are mistaken" will one day come at the cost of your life. We will be called to deny Christ or face starvation/execution by these so-called moral atheists governed by the supposedly same basic feelings of right/wrong, empathy and kindness. I hope this is a 1000 years from now…but it's unintelligent and intolerant statements and threads like this that make it look like it will be sooner rather than later. The undercurrent of hatred and disdain for Christians exhibited, most often passively, by the followers of Atheism is palpable.
Author anne1707 Posted November 25, 2013 Author Posted November 25, 2013 (edited) Christians need to be aware that this "showing us that we are mistaken" will one day come at the cost of your life. We will be called to deny Christ or face starvation/execution by these so-called moral atheists governed by the supposedly same basic feelings of right/wrong, empathy and kindness. I hope this is a 1000 years from now…but it's unintelligent and intolerant statements and threads like this that make it look like it will be sooner rather than later. The undercurrent of hatred and disdain for Christians exhibited, most often passively, by the followers of Atheism is palpable. Were there signs of hatred and disdain in my OP? Are there signs of hatred and disdain in your post? I never said atheists are better or worse than anybody else. I do however object to people trying to undermine me and my values because I do not share their religous faith. Edited November 25, 2013 by anne1707 2
Silly_Girl Posted November 25, 2013 Posted November 25, 2013 If I hadn't have read it I wouldn't have believed someone could write it. Genuinely stunned. Must be näive.
AMusing Posted November 25, 2013 Posted November 25, 2013 Christians need to be aware that this "showing us that we are mistaken" will one day come at the cost of your life. We will be called to deny Christ or face starvation/execution by these so-called moral atheists governed by the supposedly same basic feelings of right/wrong, empathy and kindness. I hope this is a 1000 years from now…but it's unintelligent and intolerant statements and threads like this that make it look like it will be sooner rather than later. The undercurrent of hatred and disdain for Christians exhibited, most often passively, by the followers of Atheism is palpable. Dang, you caught us Clemson! I mean, how dare atheists be so intolerant as to ask for tolerance and understanding from Christians. And yes, atheists are indeed hiding behind our repeated attempts to demonstrate common ground with Christians so that we can take power and then kill all believers. Bwahahahaha. No, but seriously.... My first post said nothing about hatred or disdain for Christians. I used the term "ignorant" in its first definition: lacking knowledge on a subject. I thought the context would make that quite clear. Christians lack knowledge about atheists, and therefore shouldn't be mocked as idiots, but instead shown that atheists can be just as moral and loving as Christians. I've re-read my original post and still can find no mockery or intolerance in it. And I can assure you, I have no desire to starve/execute anyone regardless of their religion (and I can't believe I feel the need to actually explicitly say that...). 5
rumbleseat Posted November 25, 2013 Posted November 25, 2013 I'm agnostic, and I. Ale marriage highly. I also put a lot of value on honesty, kindness , and keeping a one's promises. I've got friends from many different faiths, and the way I see it, as long as a religion provides them with comfort and teaches them to tolerance and understanding, then who am I to insult their beliefs? 1
KathyM Posted November 26, 2013 Posted November 26, 2013 I think people get their sense of right and wrong, as well as their views on marriage and fidelity, from a variety of sources: The teachings they received as a child, the example their parents gave, the influence of others in their life, things they have read and which made sense to them, cultural beliefs from the culture they live in, and last but not least, their religious faith. All of these things contribute to a person's sense of morality and their view of marriage and fidelity.
HokeyReligions Posted November 26, 2013 Posted November 26, 2013 Atheists care about lots of things, based on their own perspectives/philosophies etc. That might be socially constructed, might have come from early conditioning, might have been influenced by a random dream etc. In present day society, due to secularizing processes, marriage is defined in legal terms- the union between man and woman. Unless we have a religious authority in place (which we don't) then no, it is not religious in that respect. The poster was wrong. But ultimately I think marriage is not confined to religious definitions at all, its meaning has evolved so much through modernity/post modernity, the scholarly study of society recognizes this 100%. The poster was also wrong in thinking that the moral values only come from religion. That is incredibly inaccurate. I am not surprised that post errked you. I have no problem with the original post. In no way did it state that their questions or opinions are right and others wrong. Its a valid question. Where do athiests values come from? I might have responded to that bit of text my opinion that a marriage is really a contract accepted by whatever government recognizes it. It is only sanctified by God as per the beliefs and faith of the couple. Religious ceremonies include God in the vows. A civil contract does not. I might also have said that infidelity and honor and love are not exclusive to religious faith. The only thing that irks me is when someone tells my that my opinions are wrong and I should think a different way. I didnt get that from the OP.
theothersully Posted November 26, 2013 Posted November 26, 2013 As an atheist, I care very much about marriage. For me, marriage is a union between two people... not a union involving a 3rd person in the sky. 6
melell Posted November 26, 2013 Posted November 26, 2013 I have no problem with the original post. In no way did it state that their questions or opinions are right and others wrong. Its a valid question. Where do athiests values come from? I might have responded to that bit of text my opinion that a marriage is really a contract accepted by whatever government recognizes it. It is only sanctified by God as per the beliefs and faith of the couple. Religious ceremonies include God in the vows. A civil contract does not. I might also have said that infidelity and honor and love are not exclusive to religious faith. The only thing that irks me is when someone tells my that my opinions are wrong and I should think a different way. I didnt get that from the OP. And scripture quoting isn't the exact same thing?
ThatsJustHowIRoll Posted November 26, 2013 Posted November 26, 2013 Bollocks. I am atheist. I am married. I value my marriage in that I value the commitment I have made to my husband. Did I need the ritual? No...but he did. He was raised catholic and it was important to him. This superseded my indifference, so we married. Husband has since announced he is not Christian, but agnostic, to which I say "you big dirty fence sitter you!" . My marriage was performed by a civil celebrant in a garden. It is recognised and registered in my country of origin. A country which is secular and explicitly separates state and religion in the constitution. To state that marriage is a religious mandate would be to deny the validity of my marriage - and I guarantee you - I am very much married. In many instances it would invalidate any civil union not performed within the religious sphere. Being atheist does not mean anti-theist. It represents an absence of belief, but an also an understanding and tolerance for others to believe what they wish. It doesnt mean we are devoid of morality. If my husband did not respect and value our relationship I would be devastated. Piece of paper or not. Bear in mind that there are cultures around the world which have practiced bonding and mating, and have been a civilised culture in the absence of Christianity, or other deity based religions. One that easily comes to mind for me are the Australian Aborigines. Absolutely I have a moral code. I've been around the traps, Ive seen what religion has to offer and what they are trying to convince me of. I just dont believe it...and no amount of church going, hail Mary's, self flagellation or announcing to Allah can stop me from questioning the so called truth. I. Just. Cannot. Believe. And I dont really care what your religion has to say about it. 2
Author anne1707 Posted November 26, 2013 Author Posted November 26, 2013 I have no problem with the original post. In no way did it state that their questions or opinions are right and others wrong. Its a valid question. Where do athiests values come from? I might have responded to that bit of text my opinion that a marriage is really a contract accepted by whatever government recognizes it. It is only sanctified by God as per the beliefs and faith of the couple. Religious ceremonies include God in the vows. A civil contract does not. I might also have said that infidelity and honor and love are not exclusive to religious faith. The only thing that irks me is when someone tells my that my opinions are wrong and I should think a different way. I didnt get that from the OP. The quote I posted did ask where values come from for a non-Christian. But it also said that a non-Christian would not care about marriage, what is right or wrong, or care about infidelity That is what particularly bothers me and I do see that as a criticism of non-Christians. I am pretty sure many others would agree with me on that one. 6
whirl3daway Posted November 26, 2013 Posted November 26, 2013 Well, obviously, OP.... Us dirty atheists get our values straight FROM SATAN! 4
samsungxoxo Posted November 26, 2013 Posted November 26, 2013 (edited) Yes, we do care about marriage. That's part of what makes a relationships more deeper. At least in our definition, we're focusing on the real purpose: the love between two people who promised to work out the hardships within a more permanent union. Even better, the is no involvement of getting blessed by a priest. Why when you already know he/she loves you and is willing to be your life partner and accept all the responsibilities within the union. My parents BTW got married in a courthouse, not a church (mom is Catholic but dad is Agnostic; he didn't a religious ceremony). Edited November 26, 2013 by samsungxoxo
dichotomy Posted November 26, 2013 Posted November 26, 2013 Just my personal marriage experience With regards to marriage and fidelity I see no difference in bad behavior or poor choices between an atheist or a Christian. I have been married to both. Only thing I might add - is that when dealing with the issues around this is that there is a "high authority/set of rules" that can be referenced afterwards. In other words if behavior and beliefs are self directed (personal choice/view) on say adultery and marriage - it is subject to self change/viewpoint/justification. When holding bad behavior against a religious doctrine it becomes more difficult. But this is a fine point -and an after the fact did you break the law kind of thing. Bad behavior happens by people of all or no beliefs. 1
Author anne1707 Posted November 26, 2013 Author Posted November 26, 2013 Well, obviously, OP.... Us dirty atheists get our values straight FROM SATAN! I do think some posters do see us that way. But then seeing as we don't believe in Satan either..... 1
Quiet Storm Posted November 26, 2013 Posted November 26, 2013 My husband and I are nonbelievers. We certainly value marriage & fidelity. I have noticed that many people do assume that nonbelievers are morally corrupt. The first thing many say or think when they find out is "I'm praying for you". Values like honesty, integrity, compassion, consideration, loyalty can be taught without the bible. You don't need a list of rules to be a good person. Just follow the Golden Rule. No books or preachers needed. I gave one of my children a name from the bible. People get confused by this when I tell them I am an atheist. They say "but why did you name him ****?" I just say "Because I love the name".
Recommended Posts