Reciprocal Forgiveness?

[lilmisscantbewrong]

Is the slate blank now? You had one, he had one. Do you feel that you two are both back at the null state? If so, how does that affect your reconciliation? How do you two deal with the inevitable waves of emotion that would crest in either of you as you both heal from each other's betrayals?

 

I don't know really. I guess I was in so much pain still from the fallout of my affair (the whole church issue in addition to the dday fallout) that I was reeling and trying to figure out what the hell was going on - counseling, trying to dig into a much needed healing of my childhood issues, etc that my poor husband was lost. He turned to someone who had marital problems and also listened - it was a mistake and as we have discussed it probably somewhat revenge. He hates himself that he could do that to someone else.

 

It is really hard sometimes to talk honestly about it without being defensive. For instance, once he said " don't do that - that reminds me of when you were with xom" (speaking of something I did in bed) and then I lashed out and said "well how do you feel that when I walk into an office that I own I have to think about the fact that you had sex with her here." That ends the argument.

 

I inky bring it up as an example that we really have nowhere to go but up. We cannot blame each other, only ourselves and we strive to do things differently - do things together and make new memories.

 

It is not an easy road. Trust is not easily rebuilt and I honestly don't know if it will ever be there completely. That is what is most sad.

[tiredofitall2]

Infidelity is a uniformly traumatic experience, but immediate reactions to infidelity can be as varied as the people victimized by such a betrayal. Most of those reactions tend to settle over time into one of two outcomes. For some, it is an automatic dealbreaker, an uncontested finishing blow to whatever relationship was in place between the offended and offending SOs. For others, the betrayal, while unbelievably painful, is a problem that can be worked through over time.

 

I know that there are many factors that contribute to a person making the decision to stay or leave in the wake of infidelity, but is reciprocity ever one of those factors? For those of you formerly wayward, remorseful SOs who are in the process of reconciliation with your betrayed SOs, would you be willing to extend them forgiveness if they should hurt you in the same way that you have wounded them? Would you feel compelled to forgive as a reciprocation of the forgiveness that you received?

 

 

NOPE!

 

2 wrongs don't make a right and if I will be dealing with a vengeful person I prefer to leave!

 

My situation exactly....

[tiredofitall2]

NOPE!

 

2 wrongs don't make a right and if I will be dealing with a vengeful person I prefer to leave!

 

My situation exactly....

 

Does not mean I will not forgive. Just that I will not take the spouse back

[waterwoman]

H and I were also each other's 'firsts' (well not quite in my case but our first serious relationship). We have been together since before the Flood! 31 years!! When I was at uni we had a sort of unofficial break because it seemed sensible but neither of us wanted to make use of it. Moved in together after that and have been together ever since. Got married a few years later, 21 years last month. I have no doubt that H's affair was at least in part due to this. She flattered him and polished his ego till it shone. I had got a bit crap at doing that I confess life, kids, stress and depression got in the way. We had stopped taking care of each other.

 

Thing is, all the things he felt SO DID I! So I will be honest and say an EA would be hugely gratifying for me right now - but not as revenge but simply to heal the huge holes H blew in my self-esteem. And what is more I am sure he would accept it. Anything that would make me feel better - he's aware that although we are doing OK I still carry wounds. I wouldn't do it but I can see why it might happen.

[jnel921]

My WH and I had a conversation once where he told me if I slept with someone else he would forgive it, except at the same time he was crying and said he'd be extremely hurt.

 

Personally I can't see myself using someone like that. As a woman we need more to be physical with someone. There has to be an emotional connection and I am not interested in getting close to anyone that way.

 

I have too much going on in my life and am not willing to lose it or risk anything for someone that who knows may down the road be obsessed with being with me.

 

It's too much and not sure how WS like living these lifestyles.

 

So no freebies needed here. I believe they defeat the purpose of why we have R.

[Sadwife37]

Good morning and sorry for the delay in replying Wisdom Seeker. H and I spend the evenings together so I don't like to be focusing on loveshack once the kids are in bed

 

You asked about the state of our marriage having an impact on my H decision to forgive if I used my freebies. I didn't mean that he wouldn't forgive me. I absolutely believe that he would forgive me. He would forgive me and blame his own actions for impacting me so terribly that I would have to stray. But forgiving me doesn't me that it wouldn't affect us or change our relationship. Our marriage is really good now. It is as a marriage should be. We are emotionally close, intimate, completely honest and open. When the alarm sounds in the morning my H rolls over and puts his arms around me. We spend a few minutes like that before starting the rat race of life. As oppose to pre D day - now we touch, kiss, hug. Tell each other I love you. We sit close on the couch. He puts his are around my shoulders and I have my hand on his leg. He comes up behind me and kisses my neck while I peel vegetables. I put my arms around him for a hug while he washes dishes. We kiss good buy when we leave the house. We communicate during the days. We share things with each other. When we get home after work we talk about our days. Include each other. Share everything. We go to bed talking, touching, kiss good night, feeling close.

Pre A we had gradually become like roommates raising 3 kids in a house together. We jumped up when the alarm sounded. Raced around. I sang out good bye as I left the house for the day. He would come home late. We would do homework and baths and kids bed time and H would sit at the kitchen table doing work while I cleaned up then watched tv alone. If H came to watch tv before bed he would sit on the opposite end of the couch. We would usually go to bed together but facing opposite walls with simply saying good night 29 out of 30 nights most months. There was no love. No contact. No closeness. I suspected he was having an A for the entire 3 years he was. He always denied it and got mad. Said he was always home. What more did I want. I closed off and just shut down. We went through the motions of being a family but it was really bad. A lot brought it on. 3 kids in 5 years. A personal bankruptcy. Moving provinces. My H is a lawyer and he had to change firms when we moved. We had a lot of stress and didn't deal with it well. H obviously chose an awful path. I didn't stray but I certainly wasn't happy either.

 

I make no excuse for his choices and actions. He absolutely should have chosen to work on our marriage rather than allowing an A to develop.

 

We started together in high school and are each other's firsts. Given the state of our marriage I can imagine how good it felt to start getting attention from a new female. The high had to be great. I never got to experience that. That high is what I wanted with my freebies. I wanted to feel wanted by someone else and go with it. H understood that desire and said I could have the 4 freebies. I thought it would help me heal.

 

About 12 months into R I was still having an awful time. Talking about what he got to to with OW. How he will always have the memories. Can re-live it over and over. He offered to arrange for me to have sex with someone if I thought that would help. Then I would see for myself that it is nothing to be reliving and fantasizing about. That everything about it brings him sadness and regret and he doesn't spend time remembering the hot sexy excitement of it like I think he does.

 

Last night I asked H about it. We don't talk about the A very often any more. I asked about my freebies and me using them. He said he knows I will never do that. I said "what do you mean you know I won't???? I am allowed 4. Any time I want." He said he understands that, and would never stop me, and if I decide I want that it would be okay. But he knows I will never use them. He said he understands that deep inside I still worry and have doubts about him and if he will ever cheat again. Since he did it once I worry that it could happen again. He said he knows without any doubt that he will never again stray. Not in this lifetime. And as sure as he is about that for himself, he feels the same about me. He absolutely knows with total certainty that I never will. We are great now and we always will be.

[janedoe67]

I guess it depends on your view of what makes something right or wrong. Is wrong right if someone else did it first? Is adultery wrong...unless someone commits it on you first? If no circumstances in the marriage justify cheating, does that include the other person cheating first?

 

I think to say that the first WS's adultery was wrong but the second A (the RA) is fine is fairly obviously critical...unless you only think wrong is wrong when someone else does it.....

[katielee]

I can't believe these posts....

if a drunk ran over your kid and killed him would you then have carte blanche to run over his kid?

 

Two wrongs don't make a right.

People have affairs because they're screwed up.

People having affairs just to "get even" are even more screwed up.

[katielee]

I stand by my post. Two wrongs don't make it right. Evening the score, fairness, justice - people don't have a right to those things..

choosing a direction based on punishment of someone else out of a drive for vengeance just points to immaturity and selfishness.

 

I was immature and selfish. The fact that my husband was as well will probably sink this boat. He didn't deserve what I did. Neither did I deserve what he did.

 

The honorable thing - just divorce first.

[katielee]

 

A person who has a RA is even more screwed up as you say... screwed up by their cheater spouse.

 

people have a responsibility to be healthy mature individuals, doesnt really matter how they got to "screwed up".. I could blame my entire life on a screwed up childhood. Time to be responsible and act accordingly.

[KathyM]

No good can come from revenge affairs or giving a spouse permission to have a freebie to even the score. It hinders reconciliation, and brings another damaging memory into the marriage, as well as further diminishes the couple's sexual relationship with each other, since the emotional bond that comes with having sex with a spouse is further cheapened and diminished. It's like the final blow to a marriage that is already on the ropes and struggling to survive after the initial infidelity. I've seen first hand this scenario play out with people that I know, and it never ended well. It just further distanced the couple and let to greater hurt.

[WisdomSeeker]

This thread has grown by leaps and bounds in my absence. Thank you all for your participation. I'll address your responses in bulk:

 

WisdomSeeker, are you a WS?

 

No, compulsivedancer, I am not a WS. My inquiries here are mostly philosophical as I am discussing a subject with which I have no direct experience (as either victim or perpetrator).

 

Let me be devils advocate here, form my own opinion of starting fresh. They were both each other's first. CD's affair is based on sexual exploration, that came from an original conversation that was theoretical, intellectual between CD and her H. So both at least theoretically were curious as to an open marriage. CD went too far, she went beyond theory and made it real. The original concept however is likely still there and maybe i am speaking out of turn for CD but for that context, it is a fair agreement.

 

I had not considered the situation from that perspective. My notion of fairness stems entirely from a recognition of offense and a corresponding need to "settle" said offense through comparable actions, but yes I suppose there is another level of parity at work here. CD's sexual experience includes one other while her husband's is only inclusive of her. Since she got to experience a snippet of a sexual world beyond her marriage, it is only fair that her husband not be bound to their marriage as his only sexual outlet. It's fairness of opportunity rather than a more vengeance centered deed for deed fairness if that makes any sense.

 

 

As for my opinion, i disagree with the premise that "emotion" is this main driver of intensity as to lead up to "sexual" behavior in an A. If what you believe to be the proverbial dance before going up to the room as emotion, so be it... at least it is how i see it.. my opinion. It seems so few are ready to admit sexual reasons when usually again in my opinion is the fulcrum of most As. At least CD and coolit, sophie and a few others stepped up to the plate, but i just disagree flat out that ego stroking/petting... "emotion" is some higher plane of existence or is more complicated or deeper than the complexity, depth and connection sex has.

 

I agree with you. Truthfully, I was probably a little sloppier with my wording than I should have been. When I spoke of "emotional" intensity, I used the term as a catch all for the mix of sensations, both emotive and physical/sexual, that accompany the sexual experience.

 

I don't know really. I guess I was in so much pain still from the fallout of my affair (the whole church issue in addition to the dday fallout) that I was reeling and trying to figure out what the hell was going on - counseling, trying to dig into a much needed healing of my childhood issues, etc that my poor husband was lost. He turned to someone who had marital problems and also listened - it was a mistake and as we have discussed it probably somewhat revenge. He hates himself that he could do that to someone else.

 

Interesting. When you say someone else, I'm assuming that you're referring to both you and the spouse of the woman to whom he turned in which case your husband is now battling remorse for wounding you, his own spouse, and an innocent third party. I can understand why he would be torn over his actions toward the innocent, but his sorrow over hurting you is illuminating.

 

I'm a proponent of eye for an eye morality, but what if I should incur emotional trauma from striking back at my wayward spouse? What if my moral philosophy fails to shield me from blowback? What if in seeking fairness I wound myself even more?

 

What does that mean for reconciliation?

 

It is really hard sometimes to talk honestly about it without being defensive. For instance, once he said " don't do that - that reminds me of when you were with xom" (speaking of something I did in bed) and then I lashed out and said "well how do you feel that when I walk into an office that I own I have to think about the fact that you had sex with her here." That ends the argument.

 

I inky bring it up as an example that we really have nowhere to go but up. We cannot blame each other, only ourselves and we strive to do things differently - do things together and make new memories.

 

It is not an easy road. Trust is not easily rebuilt and I honestly don't know if it will ever be there completely. That is what is most sad.

 

I can see how painful that must be. Neither of you can consistently address your wound with the other because the instinctive response from either of you is to say, "Yes, but look at what you did."

 

You've given me a lot to think about. Thank you, LMCBW.

 

One problem with the freebies is this.

 

CM tells CD he is using a freebie. Cd knows CM is out with an OW. CD spends the whole time alone, hugging herself while he H experiences strange. She knows the pitfalls, the emotions that can creep in. While it happens, not in hindsight like a secret affair, she thinks about it goin on. It tears her apart.

 

Or he doesn't tell her and she just keeps waiting for the ball to drop or wondering if he has or hasn't used a freebie. She notices him checking out some hot friend or stranger. Will she be the one?

 

This is certainly an emotional consequence of the freebie, but is it unjust? If e4e (I got tired of writing eye for an eye out each time) is the guiding principle behind these actions, then the potential emotional fallout from the secondary action, the responding affair, takes a backseat in consideration to evening the scales. I've read that it isn't possible to achieve true parity in e4e morality because one may not be able to reliably predict how the offender will react to retaliation. Yes, John Doe killed my dog and took away a childhood companion (incredible agony), but did I give him an equivalent wound when I took away his pet? I cannot say, but e4e philosophy doesn't necessarily rest upon inflicting congruent levels of pain (speaking personally, that is). What is important is answering action for action no matter the subjective consequences. Tangible parity you might say.

 

A cruder example: if I am unjustifiably punched by some random foe, then it doesn't matter if I have the necessary level of skill and physical prowess to produce a punch of similar force to his. It only matters that I strike back, that I not let the offense go unpunished.

 

Most BS woild say "tit for tat, you kill my dog I'll shoot your cat". But pain upon pain helps no one. I believe

 

An eye for an eye until everyone is blind

 

No good comes out of it. Just more bad.

 

True. I guess this is what it means to pursue reconciliation. Once you've decided that you want to stay together, then your actions have to support that end. Retaliation for an affair would thus be illogical as it further weakens the integrity of an already stressed marriage.

 

Directly after I confessed I would have agreed to a RA. I asked fBH if he wanted a couple threesomes. Even then Inwas relieed when he said no. Now if he asked i'd say no. We would split before I would knowingly agree to more mess being added to our M. Now if he had an affair of his own down the road and was sorry and expressed it I would forgive him. That might seem contradictory but you know what I mean. During my A what I wanted was an Open marriage. I was at a place where I was intrigued and wanted to have sex with xMM and would rathe rhave done it with permission. Now I see them as usually quite unhealthy. At leas the real life ones i know of.

 

I get you. If your husband makes a genuine mistake down the road and is repentant, you can see yourself forgiving him, but you will not condone his actions as consequences of yours.

 

 

A good example irl i saw of a ra was my H's bestie whose w cheated. She told him to even the score and he had a few month A with another married woman. He was with his W and they worked things out after. The other woman was destroyed as she fell for him (she was seperating from her H an saw herself as single). So, there is always a chance someoje will get hurt.

 

There's no justification for hurting an innocent. Is it possible to seek fairness without turning other souls into collateral? I'll think on it.

 

NOPE!

 

2 wrongs don't make a right and if I will be dealing with a vengeful person I prefer to leave!

 

My situation exactly....

 

Is the vengeance so much worse than the initial offense?

[janedoe67]

I guess that is a good advice every cheater should take for themselves... but yeah of course you know what you do is wrong and you still do it but the BS should know that RA is wrong and since they are supposed to be the higher person they need to don't do what is wrong ... right?

 

WS make the rule of the game right? They can play around but if BS's would do it that is really wrong, isn't it?

 

Interesting point of view... not selfish at all, right?

 

I'm not sure what your beef is....my A was horrible and wrong and 100% my own fault. I NEVER should have been unfaithful. It was inexcusable.

 

That said, if my H had gone out and had an A, that one would have been wrong too. Not because I make any rules but because we both believe that the rules are absolutes and not dependent upon others.

 

It's obvious you've been hurt. Venting that on every stranger WS might make you feel better for a minute but it won't make you healthy.

[janedoe67]

I have never been cheated on (that I know about) and therefore I have never had a Revenge affair or an affair in the total sense of the word... I was an involuntary OM in a relationship and when I found out I was a OM I dumped her sorry ass and told her husband and family about it... anyhow I can't avoid the feeling that even when I was the OM I was cheated on.

 

I don't think that someone should have an affair as a revenge either... at least in the full sense of the word revenge, meaning doing something to hurt someone else... but since you had your fun and you allowed your self to be wrong... why is the BS expected to be the better person, why can't the BS "be wrong" as well and have his/her share of fun? Or are you WS the only ones who can cross the "wrong" line and do what you please to come later and say how contrite and sorry you are? Two wrongs doesn't make a right but it does make it even, at least even the fun, right?... who wants to be always right? Obviously the WS not

 

You obviously have ZERO clue of what goes on in the mind of a remorseful FWW. Okay, your didn't tell you she was married woman was obviously NOT a good person. But for those of us who have taken responsibility, there is NOTHING fun about it. And as far as being always right? Forget that. Bottom line is, according to a whole lot of people, once they find out we had an A, we are NEVER right again....about anything. We faced the gravity of the pain we inflicted on our innocent families, and we grieve over it. We wish we had time machines so we could go back and erase it. We feel dirty. We cry over the pain we caused and the pain we feel and then how selfish we are to dare to feel pain.

 

I am not saying revenge affairs are wrong because I think I am always right or because I think I am the only one who deserves fun. I am saying that ANY A is a terrible choice, and for a person with any conscience, when you finally realize exactly what you have done and exactly what you have risked or sacrificed for such a LIE....it is a terrible feeling. I wouldn't wish that on any BH on top of the pain of betrayal.

[AlwaysGrowing]

But I agree too ...it is wrong... but who cares about wrong anymore, that is my question? what does your commitment worth? You already committed once and you pissed on that commitment... you have recommitted and your husband now needs to respect that commitment because if he wouldn't that would be wrong... what does wrong mean? What is the worth of that word? You have been wrong and your husband right and anyhow he is the one who loses...

Then you say if your husband would want extra marital sexual experiences he would need to agree to an open marriage... when did you give your husband such a chance?

 

Last question and the most important one since you did not answered to me before... which are your moral grounds to establish your husband can't do what you have done? When ever cheating is wrong, it is wrong because it is a breach of the commitment, since you have pissed on that commitment, how it would be wrong if he would decide to just have his share of fun?

 

By the way if you would allow him to even the game that would not be cheating as you would allow him to do it... which moral ground do you have to not allow that?

 

And yes, you are very lucky but not only because your husband (so conveniently for you) would stick with his morals even when you have disrespected him and humiliated him in the worse of the manners but because he loves you so much that even when he will live his whole life with the mental pictures of what you did with the OM and still wishes to be with you. If it is not for co dependency that is an incredible gift... I hope you would value it and honor it... I tend to believe once a cheater always a cheater and very few people have proof me wrong... I hope your husband won't have to face your character flaws again when some new issue arises in your relationship or you simply get bored.

 

 

Wrong should always matter. ALWAYS.

 

That ^ there is what got WS into trouble...thinking that this one little wrong was some how okay. It wasn't for them, it won't be for anyone else.

 

Toss out alphabet soup titles....keeping integrity and self respect intact should be the goal for ALL, regardless of what others do.

[Spark1111]

Shortly after DDAY during a heated argument about the affair, My H yelled at me he didn't care who I f'd.

 

I recognized it for the diversionary tactic it was and didn't take the bait, though I was sorely tempted to.

 

Not because I wanted revenge, but because I had never felt so ugly and unworthy in my life. To have someone, anyone desire me would have been an ill-conceived attempt to boost my spiraling self-esteem and I recognized it as such and dismissed it out of hand.

 

I also realized he would have succeeded in assuaging his guilt and felt relieved he would not have to dig as deep or feel as guilty IF I had taken him up on his offer to go be with someone else.

 

He thought two wrongs could make it right, better...for HIM.

 

Which is ironic because during the course of our marriage he has been the more jealous partner who did take advantage go my higher standards of fidelity and honesty.

 

No dice, bud.

[Spotme]

Relationships are not math or accounting. There is no equation that solves the problem or undoes the damage. There's no such thing as balancing the ledger (and, really, I think it's a strange concept to think you can treat a relationship, which is based on emotions, as if it could be that cut and dried - which is the impression that I get from OP). After an affair, nothing will likely ever be fair or even. Two wrongs aren't going to make a right. The only math that applies is that if you double the injuries inflicted between two partners, the carnage and the pain will likely be more than doubled.

 

A BS (I am one) who focuses on the idea of a revenge affair is just searching for another way to ease the pain. Most know, though, that it won't work, that it will only complicate everything.

[atreides]

Life isn't fair ehh? I guess that is kind of easy to say when you are the one who was having sex around right? Your husband will have to pay for your mistakes the whole life but eh... life is not fair right?

 

I know you addressed this to coolit but dude, her H made the decision to keep her and forgive her. Therefore he gets to dictate what is "fair" and how he wants to deal with it. Her H decides how much he wants to "pay" and has.

 

 

No matter what you do, your husband will feel inadequate (whatever he tells you about it) he will be picturing you having sex with the other guy the rest of his life, hope you are proud of it... but eh... life is not fair.

This is indeed not kindergarten.. you should have thought about that when you were cheating on your husband.

 

wow.... so in other words her H is incapable of making his own decisions? Isn't he the best person to know how "inadequate" he feels? What would have him do?

[atreides]

Do you know what empathy means? I don't need to know your husband to know what he felt and how he must feel after your betrayal....

I don't doubt he loves you (he stayed with you after all), I don't doubt he will work in the R and will try to do it in the less painful way possible for you (again because he loves you).

Does it mean that he would not be in his complete right to go and screw around if he would want... hell he would be right to do it... he just chooses to don't do it because he doesn't want to hurt you (you have so much to learn from him... you didn't have the same courtesy to him... you chose hurting him)...

Will he think about your affair all the rest of his life? As you say I don't know your husband, but he is a man, and I can tell you right now that he will for the rest of his life, no matter how much time pass, always remember that you were with another guy, that you chose to be with that other man even knowing the pain you were to unleash ... that is something that always will hound him in his lower hours... you should be proud of that!

 

 

It seems like you are out for more "blood" here. He already decided what is fair and how he will live his life. If one forgives their WS, it is essentially self-restitution and thus a fresh start. A revenge A would swing the pendulum to the other side, unless there is an agreement made to do so as a couple of stories here have. Not all WS get forgiven, is that what you think should happen here?

[janedoe67]

Usual suspects, I am sorry for the betrayal that has obviously hurt you so badly. Have you had counseling? Bitterness, anger, and projection can really interfere with healing.

[dichotomy]

What an incredibly bold statement! I don't even know what to say, dichotomy. Does your wife fear that you would truly despise her if you decided to so completely violate your morality by seeking revenge?

 

Yes - exactly. WisdomSeaker.

 

Further - way back then - At that time :

 

I believed that one could not love and cheat. When I loved I was all in - all in with just one. She understood this about me at the time. Hence her statement.

 

She believed one could love more than one parter, or more importantly one could still love their spouse and have affairs and cheat. I did not know this belief of hers at the time.

 

 

Things have changed for both of us since then..beliefs have have been modified to some extent - though time, events and MC......but this was the situation many years ago when we got married.

 

 

Not really the same or applying to us - but I have read many a story here of WS having two standards - one for themselves and one for their spouses. Cake eaters can be this way - ok for them but not okay for their spouse. Forgiveness is not granted equally.

Edited November 21, 2013 by dichotomy

[AlwaysGrowing]

OP, for me...it's not about permission...obviously no one needs permission to have an affair, by evident of the blindside of most BS.

 

Its about who one is. If you feel that using another (ap) to make yourself feel better is okay,then I don't see any difference between that and what a WS did.

 

Personally, I would not recommend it. Especially if it goes against your core values. Because it will be you that pays the ultimate price. You will forever know that you compromised your self respect, integrity and self worth..and you will have no one to blame but yourself.

 

How is that healthy for you?