Reciprocal Forgiveness?

[WisdomSeeker]

Infidelity is a uniformly traumatic experience, but immediate reactions to infidelity can be as varied as the people victimized by such a betrayal. Most of those reactions tend to settle over time into one of two outcomes. For some, it is an automatic dealbreaker, an uncontested finishing blow to whatever relationship was in place between the offended and offending SOs. For others, the betrayal, while unbelievably painful, is a problem that can be worked through over time.

 

I know that there are many factors that contribute to a person making the decision to stay or leave in the wake of infidelity, but is reciprocity ever one of those factors? For those of you formerly wayward, remorseful SOs who are in the process of reconciliation with your betrayed SOs, would you be willing to extend them forgiveness if they should hurt you in the same way that you have wounded them? Would you feel compelled to forgive as a reciprocation of the forgiveness that you received?

[compulsivedancer]

He gets a couple freebes as a condition of our R. Not sure that's the same thing.

[Sadwife37]

Compulsive dancer - Do you really think he may use his freebies? I said I got 4 freebies. My H had sex with OW 3 times. So I get 4. Any time I want. No questions and no consequences. My H agreed. 2 years past DDay I know I will never use a freebie. I needed to claim my right to them after D Day. I am way past that now. At this point, our relationship is so much better and closer than it ever has been. I don't think my H would ever get over me cheating now that our relationship has improved so much. Even if it was never hidden. Our relationship is 100% different than when he had his affair. We have both grown and changed so much in the past 2 years. For me, needing freebies was about pain, revenge, getting even. It has totally passed.

[WisdomSeeker]

Thanks for the quick reply, compulsivedancer. What may I ask contributed to your agreeing to this evening of scores so to speak? It's certainly an unconventional approach. Most infidelity experts have no tolerance for scorekeeping philosophy and would look upon your husband's actions, should he decide to take advantage of the freebies, as extramarital affairs. I don't share their perspective mind you. I think that you are being entirely fair to concede to your husband's wishes, but I am still curious as to where your head is in the situation.

[compulsivedancer]

I think he will at least once. Because we were each others' firsts, he needs to experience sex with someone else.

 

Ironically, pre-affair I had was okay with him sleeping with someone else - we were discussing an open marriage! - it actually kind of turned me on.

 

Now it is upsetting. It still doesn't bother me if he's in the room with me (for instance, a threesome), but knowing what goes on between two people, I don't want him to forge that with someone else, not even for one night.

[atreides]

Thanks for the quick reply, compulsivedancer. What may I ask contributed to your agreeing to this evening of scores so to speak? It's certainly an unconventional approach. Most infidelity experts have no tolerance for scorekeeping philosophy and would look upon your husband's actions, should he decide to take advantage of the freebies, as extramarital affairs. I don't share their perspective mind you. I think that you are being entirely fair to concede to your husband's wishes, but I am still curious as to where your head is in the situation.

 

I don't want to put words in CD's mouth or her H's whom has also posted here but I believe both were each other's first and the A was a sexual exploration via an open relationship that went too far beyond theory of which her H kept it at. I can understand the sexual exploration point, but i struggle with it as they should just focus on themselves as a couple starting a fresh M. However, i would not frown upon there agreement if her H did use the free pass.

I also think when one has just had one sexual partner, the "oats have not been sewn."

[compulsivedancer]

Thanks for the quick reply, compulsivedancer. What may I ask contributed to your agreeing to this evening of scores so to speak? It's certainly an unconventional approach. Most infidelity experts have no tolerance for scorekeeping philosophy and would look upon your husband's actions, should he decide to take advantage of the freebies, as extramarital affairs. I don't share their perspective mind you. I think that you are being entirely fair to concede to your husband's wishes, but I am still curious as to where your head is in the situation.

 

There's definitely a feeling of fairness. It's simply not fair for me to go do it, then tell him he can't. I think it would be different if he had had sex with other women before. Since he hasn't...

 

Also, this was a nonnegotiable point. Take it or leave it. Agree or divorce. His other nonnegotiable was NC. (Mine was kids, btw).

 

For the most part I'm okay with it...sex is just sex. But because I lied to him about sex, it's hard for me to trust him with it. For instance, OM and I said we'd always use protection. But we didn't. I don't see him lying about that, but it's hard to believe in any sort of ground rules, because I so blatantly disregarded them.

 

The way he talks about it, sometimes, when he talks about it as "taking something away from me," that hurts a lot.

 

If he needs to do it for his own peace of mind, or to fulfill the need to explore, I'm okay with that. If he needs to do it for revenge, I'm not sure I can deal.

 

I worry that he'll use his freebies, I won't be able to cope, and we'll end up getting divorced. To use his line (from when we were talking about open relationships, go figure), it's not worth the risk for sex.

[atreides]

Coolit has a similar situation where they were each other's first and i would value her opinion on this issue

[compulsivedancer]

I don't want to put words in CD's mouth or her H's whom has also posted here but I believe both were each other's first and the A was a sexual exploration via an open relationship that went too far beyond theory of which her H kept it at. I can understand the sexual exploration point, but i struggle with it as they should just focus on themselves as a couple starting a fresh M. However, i would not frown upon there agreement if her H did use the free pass.

I also think when one has just had one sexual partner, the "oats have not been sewn."

 

H and I were discussing an open relationship pre-affair. OM and I never got permission (H eventually said no; by then the affair was already in swing, although still early; we hadn't had sex yet).

[compulsivedancer]

Coolit has a similar situation where they were each other's first and i would value her opinion on this issue

 

They were? I didn't realize that.

 

Katielee is a fairly recent poster who was a WW first, but is very very bitter about her H's two RAs (he seems to see it as evening the score).

[dichotomy]

Let me speak on behalf of my WS -who once said to me "I would NEVER forgive YOU if you cheated on ME because I know YOU hold it to such a high (higher standard then her)"

 

Since then she has mentioned she would be more forgiving.

 

Not that I said to her I wanted to cheat or wanted a freebie or anything.

[atreides]

There's definitely a feeling of fairness. It's simply not fair for me to go do it, then tell him he can't. I think it would be different if he had had sex with other women before. Since he hasn't...

 

Also, this was a nonnegotiable point. Take it or leave it. Agree or divorce. His other nonnegotiable was NC. (Mine was kids, btw).

 

For the most part I'm okay with it...sex is just sex. But because I lied to him about sex, it's hard for me to trust him with it. For instance, OM and I said we'd always use protection. But we didn't. I don't see him lying about that, but it's hard to believe in any sort of ground rules, because I so blatantly disregarded them.

 

The way he talks about it, sometimes, when he talks about it as "taking something away from me," that hurts a lot.

 

If he needs to do it for his own peace of mind, or to fulfill the need to explore, I'm okay with that. If he needs to do it for revenge, I'm not sure I can deal.

 

I worry that he'll use his freebies, I won't be able to cope, and we'll end up getting divorced. To use his line (from when we were talking about open relationships, go figure), it's not worth the risk for sex.

 

 

I take issue in principle with the demeaning of sex. Sex is not just sex, i find it far deeper than the so called superficial ego stoking/petting of one's ego dubbed an EA. It, sex can be shared in many ways and perhaps it takes a bit of denial from us all when its exclusivity was once promised and then shattered through infidelity. Maybe I am the minority opinion on this and so be it, I just get eked by "well it's just sex"

[atreides]

H and I were discussing an open relationship pre-affair. OM and I never got permission (H eventually said no; by then the affair was already in swing, although still early; we hadn't had sex yet).

 

Ok, yea that is what I meant by "it went beyond just theory" I think that is how your H framed it.

[atreides]

They were? I didn't realize that.

 

Katielee is a fairly recent poster who was a WW first, but is very very bitter about her H's two RAs (he seems to see it as evening the score).

 

I think so, .... Ok well now you are making me second guess but I do believe so or maybe he was just her first.... ah Coolit will chime in

[WisdomSeeker]

Compulsive dancer - Do you really think he may use his freebies? I said I got 4 freebies. My H had sex with OW 3 times. So I get 4. Any time I want. No questions and no consequences. My H agreed. 2 years past DDay I know I will never use a freebie. I needed to claim my right to them after D Day. I am way past that now. At this point, our relationship is so much better and closer than it ever has been. I don't think my H would ever get over me cheating now that our relationship has improved so much. Even if it was never hidden. Our relationship is 100% different than when he had his affair. We have both grown and changed so much in the past 2 years. For me, needing freebies was about pain, revenge, getting even. It has totally passed.

 

Very interesting, Sadwife. So, the condition of your marriage at the time of your own potential affair would enter into your husband's decision to forgive. In what condition was your marriage when he cheated? Do you feel that this is a fair consideration, Sadwife? Obviously, I'm just a poorly informed outsider looking in (so please disregard whatever I say that doesn't apply ), but it doesn't seem very equitable to me. The basis of the bargain you guys created after his affair was his infidelity. No matter what, because he cheated, you will always have that negotiated freebie. He can't revoke his actions after all.

 

Then again, the marriage that he has worked hard to create between you two may be enough repayment for what he did in which case the debt is erased and your affair would be a -1 from a null starting point.

 

I'm eager to hear your thoughts.

[lilmisscantbewrong]

We definitely never discussed freebies or really an open marriage - he brought it up once after my dday but then I asked "is that what you want?" And he said no. But then he had his own affair not long after. A revenge affair? Probably. My husband was my first. He had had at least two sex partners before we married that I know of.

 

I guess in some weird way we are even.

[WisdomSeeker]

I don't want to put words in CD's mouth or her H's whom has also posted here but I believe both were each other's first and the A was a sexual exploration via an open relationship that went too far beyond theory of which her H kept it at. I can understand the sexual exploration point, but i struggle with it as they should just focus on themselves as a couple starting a fresh M. However, i would not frown upon there agreement if her H did use the free pass.

I also think when one has just had one sexual partner, the "oats have not been sewn."

 

I have not to my knowledge been a victim of infidelity, but I recognize the capacity for betrayal in human nature. So, I've always given thought to how I might react if and when my future SO chooses to have an affair. For me, there is a mental struggle between acting according to the kind of eye for an eye morality that seems just and fair in my instrinctual mind and the kind of higher idealism that would demand I leave all thoughts of my own affair behind in the interest of recovering the marriage (starting fresh as you say).

[katielee]

Ah yeah, I'm pissed! I understand one but two? Probably a dealbreaker.

No one deserves an affair. The way to fix a marriage where there had been an affair is not to have another affair. Divorce first!

[WisdomSeeker]

There's definitely a feeling of fairness. It's simply not fair for me to go do it, then tell him he can't. I think it would be different if he had had sex with other women before. Since he hasn't...

 

In what way would it be different? I only ask because, like I mentioned in my response to Sadwife, the offense of the first affair is always and irrevocably present. Thus, in the interest of fairness, your husband always has that right to pursue his own extramarital relationships. Why would his lack of sexual experience sway anything, and why is that a consideration about fairness?

 

 

Also, this was a nonnegotiable point. Take it or leave it. Agree or divorce. His other nonnegotiable was NC. (Mine was kids, btw).

 

I get it. You want the marriage, you agree to the freebies. Simple and brooks no resistance.

 

For the most part I'm okay with it...sex is just sex. But because I lied to him about sex, it's hard for me to trust him with it. For instance, OM and I said we'd always use protection. But we didn't. I don't see him lying about that, but it's hard to believe in any sort of ground rules, because I so blatantly disregarded them.

 

Understood. It is hard to see in others what you cannot first see in yourself. You were overcome by the intense emotional side of the affair and that pushed you to more risky behavior. Why wouldn't your husband, especially having no sexual experience aside from you, fall prey to the same thing?

 

Have you discussed these fears with your husband? How does he address them, and do they ever influence his decision to maintain the freebie?

 

The way he talks about it, sometimes, when he talks about it as "taking something away from me," that hurts a lot.

 

If he needs to do it for his own peace of mind, or to fulfill the need to explore, I'm okay with that. If he needs to do it for revenge, I'm not sure I can deal.

 

Why would revenge as a motive be so much more unpalatable? Is it because you would have a hard time staying with a spouse who voluntarily decided to hurt you? How would that be different from your decision to have an affair which you had to know would wound your husband deeply?

 

I worry that he'll use his freebies, I won't be able to cope, and we'll end up getting divorced. To use his line (from when we were talking about open relationships, go figure), it's not worth the risk for sex.

 

It's a legitimate fear. Emotions are not really governed by reason. Yes your husband's freebies are entiely justifiable, but your heart may not be as accomodating. I get it.

 

Also, I realize that I am asking very difficult questions of you, compulsivedancer. I thank you for your openness and candor.

[WisdomSeeker]

Let me speak on behalf of my WS -who once said to me "I would NEVER forgive YOU if you cheated on ME because I know YOU hold it to such a high (higher standard then her)"

 

Since then she has mentioned she would be more forgiving.

 

Not that I said to her I wanted to cheat or wanted a freebie or anything.

 

What an incredibly bold statement! I don't even know what to say, dichotomy. Does your wife fear that you would truly despise her if you decided to so completely violate your morality by seeking revenge?

[WisdomSeeker]

We definitely never discussed freebies or really an open marriage - he brought it up once after my dday but then I asked "is that what you want?" And he said no. But then he had his own affair not long after. A revenge affair? Probably. My husband was my first. He had had at least two sex partners before we married that I know of.

 

I guess in some weird way we are even.

 

Is the slate blank now? You had one, he had one. Do you feel that you two are both back at the null state? If so, how does that affect your reconciliation? How do you two deal with the inevitable waves of emotion that would crest in either of you as you both heal from each other's betrayals?

[WisdomSeeker]

Ah yeah, I'm pissed! I understand one but two? Probably a dealbreaker.

No one deserves an affair. The way to fix a marriage where there had been an affair is not to have another affair. Divorce first!

 

Like I mentioned in an earlier post, this is the kind of logic that I would struggle to choose. I don't agree that an affair is never deserved. To the contrary, I believe that we deserve whatever we first enact against another.

 

But your husband has made a mess of the eye for an eye morality because we only deserve what we do against another. You had one affair. He had only the right to have one of his own, but he has had two. Now the equation is uneven again.

 

What is the outcome of all of this scorekeeping though? Wouldn't it be healthier to simply close the relationship to all extramarital relations? Yes, it probably would be...but what about the need for equity?

 

*sigh* As I said, it is a struggle.

[katielee]

I have no need to even the score by having another affair! Good god, I have no right to do that. I have a right to be angry, I do not have a right to act out.

[compulsivedancer]

WisdomSeeker, are you a WS?

[atreides]

In what way would it be different? I only ask because, like I mentioned in my response to Sadwife, the offense of the first affair is always and irrevocably present. Thus, in the interest of fairness, your husband always has that right to pursue his own extramarital relationships. Why would his lack of sexual experience sway anything, and why is that a consideration about fairness?

 

 

Understood. It is hard to see in others what you cannot first see in yourself. You were overcome by the intense emotional side of the affair and that pushed you to more risky behavior. Why wouldn't your husband, especially having no sexual experience aside from you, fall prey to the same thing?

 

Have you discussed these fears with your husband? How does he address them, and do they ever influence his decision to maintain the freebie?

 

 

 

Why would revenge as a motive be so much more unpalatable? Is it because you would have a hard time staying with a spouse who voluntarily decided to hurt you?

 

 

Let me be devils advocate here, form my own opinion of starting fresh. They were both each other's first. CD's affair is based on sexual exploration, that came from an original conversation that was theoretical, intellectual between CD and her H. So both at least theoretically were curious as to an open marriage. CD went too far, she went beyond theory and made it real. The original concept however is likely still there and maybe i am speaking out of turn for CD but for that context, it is a fair agreement.

 

I bold text i took issue with, as in revenge. From CD's H's own posts, i do not see anything about revenge in the slightest. This is a sexual exploration issue.

 

Intense emotion, again the way i understand CD's story is sexual discovery and exploration.

 

As for my opinion, i disagree with the premise that "emotion" is this main driver of intensity as to lead up to "sexual" behavior in an A. If what you believe to be the proverbial dance before going up to the room as emotion, so be it... at least it is how i see it.. my opinion. It seems so few are ready to admit sexual reasons when usually again in my opinion is the fulcrum of most As. At least CD and coolit, sophie and a few others stepped up to the plate, but i just disagree flat out that ego stroking/petting... "emotion" is some higher plane of existence or is more complicated or deeper than the complexity, depth and connection sex has.