Speakingofwhich Posted November 21, 2013 Posted November 21, 2013 Solo, It seems you may have a tough time ahead of you and I'm so glad you have good support in your AA group. Do you have close family or friends who know of your sitch with MM? It seems to me MM may not be thinking clearly about things pertaining to the two of you or maybe he's just unaware of the possible social fallout for you if your A with MM becomes known of in your community. Whatever happens with you and MM will be easier to deal with if you don't have the added burden of public exposure of your R with MM in your town/city. Take care, dear.
Snipercatt Posted November 21, 2013 Posted November 21, 2013 Solo, I'm going to explain something as best as I know how. For me to believe something it has to make sense, it has to be logical. Sometimes you post things that are in direct contradiction of each other. That means that one of those things probably isn't true. Now, I'm not insinuating that you are lying. It may simply be that you don't know what you don't know. However, for your age and experience the average person would expect you to be more knowledgeable and it may leave some of us incredulous. This may account for the posts that you say make you feel attacked. (There may be another reason, and I'll mention that in the end.) Here's an example: MM started the business and has maintained it very successfully for 40 years, even when he was drinking. Yet, you make lots of comments about MM's wife being controlling and in charge of the finances, etc. My girlfriend has been put in the same hard spot that your MM's BW is in. I called her and asked her why she felt she needs to control the business, and family, finances. Her response was, "Since, he was drunk for so long, I took over all the resposibilities...It's a horrible cycle of alcoholism." I've seen this situation play out time, and time, again and the "controlling" spouse feels that if they hadn't taken over things would have spiraled out of controll. If one is in relationship with an active alcoholic they know they can't control the person, but they can control the environment. It's a horrible cycle of alcoholism. She said it involves much more than finances. You have no way of knowing if MM maintained the business successfully, while drinking. Even if he has told you, you can't trust that he has an accurate perception of what was going on during his drinking years, or that his ego would permit him to tell you the truth if he thinks it might cast him in a negative light. And that's the point I want to stress with you. There are things that you've posted that show MM to be a very flawed character, far beyond just lying, or cheating. Until you make an authentic assessment of yourself, of him and then of the relationship you are relying on "good feelings" that may not be grounded in truth, or logic. I said I would share my other theory about what may be happening. You have mentioned many times that you are "drop dead gorgeous". That may be true and you may be using it for trade, like currency. Maybe you have gotten by without having to logically think things through because you trade your beauty like currency. Maybe you take the shortcuts that being attractive may afford you. You've mentioned that MM comments "you look like a little girl" when you sit like that and you seem proud of that. It is certainly your choice whether to trade on looking like a little girl, and being beautiful, but it won't change where the consequences of ignoring the truth will take you. 3
Author solostand Posted November 21, 2013 Author Posted November 21, 2013 I know the business very well, since I watched it in action this summer. He is the business leader - he is the only one skilled in the specifics required for the job. He hires, fires, supervises, et cetera. She has no day to day involvement in the business. It is a lifesaving business. She is afraid of the water. He is president, she is treasurer. As such, she controls the business funds. There are two signatures required, his and hers. His son and daughter are officers.
Snipercatt Posted November 21, 2013 Posted November 21, 2013 WHat does any of that have to do with the business, over 20 years ago, during MM's drinking days?
Author solostand Posted November 21, 2013 Author Posted November 21, 2013 Oh, and he certainly never underplayed his drinking days and escapades to me in any fashion. I heard it all - - - still hear of it sometimes. Some of it shocking, but none surprising spoken from one alcoholic to another. Also, his wife had a career of her own as an RN. He also had a career as a teacher. The business was seasonal for him.
Author solostand Posted November 21, 2013 Author Posted November 21, 2013 He did not become an alcoholic until he retired from teaching about 15 years ago.
Author solostand Posted November 21, 2013 Author Posted November 21, 2013 WHat does any of that have to do with the business, over 20 years ago, during MM's drinking days? you insinuated she stepped in to take over the business. I indicated she could not have done so since she was not capable.
Snipercatt Posted November 21, 2013 Posted November 21, 2013 You said you and he had the same time in to AA. You for 25 years and sober 20. Now MM didn't start drinking until 15 years ago. One contradicts the other. Being capable of being a lifesaver and hiring and firing don't directly relate to being capable of running a business, and being financially successful, especially during periods of drinking to excess. 1
beach Posted November 21, 2013 Posted November 21, 2013 Of course you are welcome in the group - everyone is welcomed to be there. Can you show me what page says male/female is "frowned upon" in the big book? Can you explain how you explain your position of being his OW as honest/truthful? Do you think your behavior falls within the guidelines of the principles of the program? Can you explain how taking a huge interest in another man who is married coincides with your program? How do you justify the way you participate? Have you talked honestly to your sponsor about how you are participating in the triangle? Has he been involved with the program a while/done all his step work? Do you consistently sponsor others? Would you kindly respond to my questions?
Author solostand Posted November 21, 2013 Author Posted November 21, 2013 You said you and he had the same time in to AA. You for 25 years and sober 20. Now MM didn't start drinking until 15 years ago. One contradicts the other. Being capable of being a lifesaver and hiring and firing don't directly relate to being capable of running a business, and being financially successful, especially during periods of drinking to excess. Look, you can sit at home and think up all the scenarios you wish. I know the truth. The guy has told me the good the bad and the ugly and if his wife had had to step in he would have told me that too. And certainly being a lifesaver and being able to directly supervise lifesavers in a business devoted to livesaving do indeed refer to running a business. If you can't run it on the ground, disaster happens. Yes, we have both been sober for four years. I was sober for 20 years prior to that and had a "slip" of four years.
Author solostand Posted November 22, 2013 Author Posted November 22, 2013 Would you kindly respond to my questions? We claim spiritual progress rather than spiritual perfection. We consider our step work private and anonymous, within the confines of AA. This is about my affair with a MM whom I happened to meet in AA. Not about the AA program. We do not conduct our affair in the AA meeting rooms, nor does our relationship focus on alcoholics anonymous rather it focuses on our feelings for each other.
beach Posted November 22, 2013 Posted November 22, 2013 We claim spiritual progress rather than spiritual perfection. We consider our step work private and anonymous, within the confines of AA. This is about my affair with a MM whom I happened to meet in AA. Not about the AA program. We do not conduct our affair in the AA meeting rooms, nor does our relationship focus on alcoholics anonymous rather it focuses on our feelings for each other. You didn't answer the questions. Anonymity is about you - your answers - and you seem to be choosing to avoid really answering. You are having an affair - NOTHING about that coincides with the principles of your AA program... Learn about the principles assigned to each step... Your behavior isn't aligned to honesty, brotherly love and integrity. And for the record "spiritual progress not spiritual perfection" has to do with your connection to your higher power and having a spiritual awakening. It isn't designed to infer that bad behavior is acceptable. Can you answer my specific questions you've avoided?
whichwayisup Posted November 22, 2013 Posted November 22, 2013 Solo, I'm going to explain something as best as I know how. For me to believe something it has to make sense, it has to be logical. Sometimes you post things that are in direct contradiction of each other. That means that one of those things probably isn't true. Now, I'm not insinuating that you are lying. It may simply be that you don't know what you don't know. However, for your age and experience the average person would expect you to be more knowledgeable and it may leave some of us incredulous. This may account for the posts that you say make you feel attacked. (There may be another reason, and I'll mention that in the end.) Here's an example: Yet, you make lots of comments about MM's wife being controlling and in charge of the finances, etc. My girlfriend has been put in the same hard spot that your MM's BW is in. I called her and asked her why she felt she needs to control the business, and family, finances. Her response was, I've seen this situation play out time, and time, again and the "controlling" spouse feels that if they hadn't taken over things would have spiraled out of controll. If one is in relationship with an active alcoholic they know they can't control the person, but they can control the environment. She said it involves much more than finances. You have no way of knowing if MM maintained the business successfully, while drinking. Even if he has told you, you can't trust that he has an accurate perception of what was going on during his drinking years, or that his ego would permit him to tell you the truth if he thinks it might cast him in a negative light. And that's the point I want to stress with you. There are things that you've posted that show MM to be a very flawed character, far beyond just lying, or cheating. Until you make an authentic assessment of yourself, of him and then of the relationship you are relying on "good feelings" that may not be grounded in truth, or logic. I said I would share my other theory about what may be happening. You have mentioned many times that you are "drop dead gorgeous". That may be true and you may be using it for trade, like currency. Maybe you have gotten by without having to logically think things through because you trade your beauty like currency. Maybe you take the shortcuts that being attractive may afford you. You've mentioned that MM comments "you look like a little girl" when you sit like that and you seem proud of that. It is certainly your choice whether to trade on looking like a little girl, and being beautiful, but it won't change where the consequences of ignoring the truth will take you. Solo...Three words. Google Mayor Ford. Not a joke. Addiction and the dynamic of it all, let alone how people can hide their drinking so well and still seem like they're functioning normally, or even have a few drinks, they are not functionally normally and making rational and smart thinking and clear decisions. There is dysfunction going on here and you both can't see it. AA or not, it's there.
whichwayisup Posted November 22, 2013 Posted November 22, 2013 I know the business very well, since I watched it in action this summer. He is the business leader - he is the only one skilled in the specifics required for the job. He hires, fires, supervises, et cetera. She has no day to day involvement in the business. It is a lifesaving business. She is afraid of the water. He is president, she is treasurer. As such, she controls the business funds. There are two signatures required, his and hers. His son and daughter are officers. Don't you think his wife knows the business as well? Why you make her out to be a pathetic timid mouse, hiding in the corner and not capable of anything? Me thinks he's lied to about their marriage more than you realize. Sorry Solo, but the fact remains, he has made no effort whatsoever to back off and divorce her, leave her, move out or anything. You have his word on all this, one side. And, his side cannot be ALL right and the actual full truth. No way. I'd bet my life on it. Bolded part. ONE summer. So you know his business, the in's and out's than his wife? I'm sure she knows much more than you think she does.
whichwayisup Posted November 22, 2013 Posted November 22, 2013 We claim spiritual progress rather than spiritual perfection. We consider our step work private and anonymous, within the confines of AA. This is about my affair with a MM whom I happened to meet in AA. Not about the AA program. We do not conduct our affair in the AA meeting rooms, nor does our relationship focus on alcoholics anonymous rather it focuses on our feelings for each other. Yet you say everybody in AA knows of your affair and is supportive of it. So yes, you two are conducting your A by showing up together as a couple. And, using what spiritual moments you have there towards your feelings. Unless I'm misreading what you're saying? And please don't think I'm being rude or picking on you. I am just trying to get you to take a step back and see this from another angle, to be a bit more objective. it's really hard to tell what's what when you're smack in the middle of it.
MuddyFootprints Posted November 22, 2013 Posted November 22, 2013 Solo...Three words. Google Mayor Ford. The difference is that supposedly Mayor Robbie "has more than enough to eat at home". (t/j, just because...ugh.)
Author solostand Posted November 22, 2013 Author Posted November 22, 2013 Solo...Three words. Google Mayor Ford. Not a joke. Addiction and the dynamic of it all, let alone how people can hide their drinking so well and still seem like they're functioning normally, or even have a few drinks, they are not functionally normally and making rational and smart thinking and clear decisions. There is dysfunction going on here and you both can't see it. AA or not, it's there. You've lost all credibility with me when you compare my MM with Rob Ford. Darling I AM AN ALCOHOLIC. My father was an Alcoholic. My sister is an alcoholic. The disease is endemic in the area I live in. I know how it works, thanks.
Snipercatt Posted November 22, 2013 Posted November 22, 2013 I think it is human nature to not see that which we don't want to see. Solo, you've expressed what you want in a future mate. If you want to be in a primary relationship, if you want a man, independent, successful and entirely single now but wanting to be in a primary relation with you, you have your work cut out for you. MM isn't it.
cat Posted November 22, 2013 Posted November 22, 2013 You've lost all credibility with me when you compare my MM with Rob Ford. Darling I AM AN ALCOHOLIC. My father was an Alcoholic. My sister is an alcoholic. The disease is endemic in the area I live in. I know how it works, thanks. I've been following your story Solo from the beginning of your time on LS. I'm going to step in here and defend Whichway because I find her comments (I haven't read them all ever, she has like a million posts) to generally be honest and insightful, as well as direct. I don't think she was saying your MM was exactly like the Mayor of Toronto. That's addiction acted out in a different way. The point simply was-- people can be active in their addiction and still appear to have functional lives. There was another case this week of the congressman from Florida being arrested for buying cocaine from a federal agent. Obviously functioning, obviously active in his addiction. I am not going to take the stand that you need to stop doing what you're doing because you two are alcoholics. It is strange the lack of clarity around whether you are open in your relationship at AA meetings or not... but to me that's neither here nor there. The main point is-- this is not a good situation. It's not healthy. He's married. Period. He's clearly capable of enormous deceit and is acting in a very heartless and borderline cruel way to his wife by having you both at the hospital together. I"m not saying he's a callous and cruel person. I"m saying the affair has blinded him to the standards of character that maybe he would have under other circumstances. If he comes back around and realizes he's a "bad person" and then realizes it's because of YOU-- he'll resent you. I have been through this-- with a younger man who did leave his wife for me. I love him dearly and I miss him so much, every minute of every day-- and the ONE THING I wish I'd done more than anything is taken the long view. That is, told him that he needed to divorce his wife, live alone, heal, and then come back to me. So, at the very least, I wouldn't be a reminder of all the hurt and pain of the divorce. I didn't do that, and now I am that reminder, and we are not together. 3
Owl Posted November 22, 2013 Posted November 22, 2013 You've lost all credibility with me when you compare my MM with Rob Ford. Darling I AM AN ALCOHOLIC. My father was an Alcoholic. My sister is an alcoholic. The disease is endemic in the area I live in. I know how it works, thanks. Alcoholism is a disease, that results in ADDICTION to alcohol. Many alcoholics, when the attempt to break that addiction, find themselves ADDICTED to something else...they subsitute addictions, rather than address the issues. So I struggle to understand how what was said is untrue, or in any way should cause a loss of credibility on your part. How can you not see this parallel????? 2
underwater2010 Posted November 22, 2013 Posted November 22, 2013 Alcoholism is a disease, that results in ADDICTION to alcohol. Many alcoholics, when the attempt to break that addiction, find themselves ADDICTED to something else...they subsitute addictions, rather than address the issues. So I struggle to understand how what was said is untrue, or in any way should cause a loss of credibility on your part. How can you not see this parallel????? If I am understand Owl correctly...the parallel is that you have substituted the affair for alcohol. Correct Owl?
beach Posted November 22, 2013 Posted November 22, 2013 If you've sponsored others - would you tell them it's in alignment with the program to have an affair with a married man?
Owl Posted November 22, 2013 Posted November 22, 2013 If I am understand Owl correctly...the parallel is that you have substituted the affair for alcohol. Correct Owl? And so has he. Preciselamente, my friend. 1
whichwayisup Posted November 22, 2013 Posted November 22, 2013 You've lost all credibility with me when you compare my MM with Rob Ford. Darling I AM AN ALCOHOLIC. My father was an Alcoholic. My sister is an alcoholic. The disease is endemic in the area I live in. I know how it works, thanks. Sorry, bad comparison. All my point really is, you don't know what goes on his head all the time and how he functions (functioned) while drinking. Only he knows that 100%. I won't post on your thread anymore. I apologize again..
Author solostand Posted November 23, 2013 Author Posted November 23, 2013 Not sure how this thread got made into a discussion of AA but anyway, back to the original topic. Asked MM today how things were on the suspicion front, at home. He said "Your name has not been mentioned but she is keeping a close eye on me. Found her with my phone this morning." His phone is clean, he makes sure of that. And luckily, we haven't been able to see each other since Monday because we're both busy. We did have a tryst today and probably another one tomorrow. Now, for those who think I am pining my life away for MM, I am not. I do date, but don't tell him about it (he doesn't want to know) More importantly, I have an End Date selected and have had one for awhile. It is March 1st and it is perfect date for many reasons.
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