BS - WS thinking about AP

[dichotomy]

Ok,

 

So compulsivedancer started a thread specifically targeted at WS and thoughts of AP after Dday. How and when thoughts and feelings go away - when it stops.

 

Moderators stepped in because BS's were jumping on - outside of the constraint of the question to WS only and steering it towards their own agendas. I would like to open it up to BS and WS and anyone else.

 

I will start specifically with one comment from poster that "triggered" me wanting to jump on the other thread.

 

Memories will ALWAYS be fond, but no one is dumb enough to tell their BS that...come on we are talking about people who are trying to stay in their marriages!

 

So I wonder based on this - how full and healthy reconciliation happens if this is not addressed openly? Should WS bear the burden of dealing with this on their own - or maybe in IC, or does this require more honesty with BS and in probably in MC ?

Edited November 17, 2013 by dichotomy

[yellowmaverick]

Ok,

 

So compulsivedancer started a thread specifically targeted at WS and thoughts of AP after Dday. How and when thoughts and feelings go away - when it stops.

 

Moderators stepped in because BS's were jumping on - outside of the constraint of the question to WS only and steering it towards their own agendas. I would like to open it up to BS and WS and anyone else.

 

I will start specifically with one comment from poster that "triggered" me wanting to jump on the other thread.

 

Memories will ALWAYS be fond, but no one is dumb enough to tell their BS that...come on we are talking about people who are trying to stay in their marriages!

 

So I wonder based on this - how full and healthy reconciliation happens if this is not uaddressed openly? Should WS bear the burden of dealing with this on their own - or maybe in IC, or does this require more honesty with BS and in probably in MC ?

 

Memories are NOT always fond. When the OW showed her true colors after d-day, my WH couldn't get rid of her fast enough. I am past the point of caring and have chosen not to reconcile. Personally, I believe that a truly remorseful spouse does not think fondly of the AP. There is nothing like realizing that you may lose the one you really love - makes one snap out of that affair bubble pretty quickly.

[road]

Not every WW has remorse for having an affair.

 

 

These WW's however are able to recover their marriages. And, making their marriage better post affair then pre affair. And, never cheat again.

 

 

When the WW affair ends without being caught the affair ended a natural death. If the OM ended the affair he dumped the WW leaving her to realized the OM is a loser that just used her. Or if WW ended the affair she came to realize that all that glitters is not gold so she realized the OM was a loser.

 

 

Either way the WW may still have things about the affair she liked but no longer likes the OM.

 

 

When a WW gets caught and the affair ends before it's time she never gets to realize what a loser the OM was. Her last memories of the OM were good memories. Her views with time can change but they may not.

 

 

It is not hiding emotions/feelings for the OM. It is pointless to point out her fond memories when a WW views the affair overall in the end was wrong.

 

 

Example, affair sex was great. WW's sex with the OM was great. The WW does not miss sex with the OM. WW no longer wants sex with the OM. WW is happy with sex with the BH.

 

 

So what purpose post D day after the WW has told her BH all about her affair. WW already told her BH this after being caught in her affair on D day. Is there a WW's purpose to say she remembers how good the sex with the OM was to her BH?

 

 

There is no purpose to remind her BH whether a month, half a year, year or years later how great the sex was with the OM. There is no benefit to sharing this information past D day. There is also no purpose for the WW to recall how good the sex was either. Best to let those memories fade. Not recalling those memories is the same as forgetting them.

 

 

Even WW's that are remorseful post D day can have some good memories. Yes they see the affair as a whole was wrong but can recall some parts as good.

 

 

This is why NC must be for life. The relationship is an addiction. The brain chemistry caused addictive chemical reactions to take place. When the WS see's the AP the brain creates these addictive cravings in the brain. This is why many affairs restart when their is no NC for life.

 

 

Just as alcoholic's are told not to go where alcohol is served for that same reason. The sight, sound, smell, can caused them to fall off the wagon.

Edited November 17, 2013 by road

[anne1707]

Even WW's that are remorseful post D day can have some good memories. Yes they see the affair as a whole was wrong but can recall some parts as good.

 

 

This is why NC must be for life. The relationship is an addiction. The brain chemistry caused addictive chemical reactions to take place. When the WS see's the AP the brain creates these addictive cravings in the brain. This is why many affairs restart when their is no NC for life.

 

 

Just as alcoholic's are told not to go where alcohol is served for that same reason. The sight, sound, smell, can caused them to fall off the wagon.

 

I do have an issue with this idea that fWS have fond memories of the AP as it seems to be implied that the fWS is choosing to think about these memories. But that may well not be the case. In fact I know it is not the case for me. If I thought about ex boyfriends, there could be fond memories but I just don't go round thinking about exes in that way. Why should it be any different for an exAP? People move on from past relationships all the time. Just because it was an affair, it does not make it any different really.

 

In addition, it is perfectly possible to not have complete NC and not "fall off the wagon". Again something I know for fact.

[Bittersweetie]

Dichotomy, as I said in Compulsive's thread, the memories I had were fond at one point. After d-day they no longer became "fond" because thinking of them reminded me of the pain and hurt I caused. The memories reminded me of how selfish I was. When I stopped recognizing those memories as good or positive, they began to fade. Hope this helps.

[anne1707]

After the affair ended, my memories were bad. It was all focussed on the mess from the fall out after dday, how it had hurt my husband so badly, games the exOM had played with me, and how he had "got away with it". There was anger in all that.

 

However in time, as I worked on myself through IC and my husband and I worked on us with the help of MC, things shifted. In time I stopped thinking about the exOM (and that is inspite of me still working with him!). I became indifferent to him.

 

So yes, technically I can remember things from that time but I really cannot be bothered to even try because it means nothing to me. Please note that is not saying that the affair was nothing or means nothing because I do recognise it was hugely painful and devastating on my husband and I, but the exOM himself means nothing to me.

[thecharade]

I am a WS trying to save my M. The first thing is that it is NOT like other Rs because the ending is caused by circumstances--we "can't" be together. The natural evolution that ends an R, one person wanting out or falling out of love, doesn't take place. If there is a dday (and sometimes even if there is not) the ending is seen as necessary, for the greater good--even if there is a NC letter. These ambiguous endings can create longing that might not have occurred in a regular break up. Does a BS allow for that fact or deny it as a potential byproduct? Is realizing there are lingering feelings a deal breaker? Should it be? I can't answer any of that.

 

As for the disgust one feels as a WS, it is with ourselves. Because we look back with 20/20 clarity, and we regret many things. Disgust with the AP? Well, each situation is different. Some As are very sleazy and others are more civilized, but because we are upset that we did things KNOWING WHAT WE KNOW NOW, we lump the AP in. Rightfully? Sometimes. But other times we don't feel a lot of disgust with them, just the situation. Do we share that distinction with our BS? No, most likely not. It is disgust, so we leave it at that. Even though we know the disgust is because we hurt so many and wish we had been smarter, not disgust with our actual AP. If our APs were mostly good to us, albeit selfish and stupid, we chalk it up to a huge misstep in life, and we blame ourselves. We are disgusted with who we were.

 

I think often there are lingering feelings of affection, like many old relationships, and we box them up and put them away. Choices have been made with our heads, good choices. So we cultivate and nourish all feelings that go along with the good path we're on.

 

I can't speak for everyone. As come in all shapes and sizes. But there are many who feel and deal as I have. Peace.

[Artie Lang]

my take..... whether they are fond memories or not, this OP will be a part of your life in some way or another- it happened..... you can't deny that!

 

the only thing you can do is cope with it. do you think you can handle it..... that is the question?

[AlwaysGrowing]

Personally, all these absolutes that people attribute to each and every WS is utter nonsense.

 

For some, they attach the people with the act. If one feels that they did something horrific, they will often attach those same feelings to those that were present, especially if they were party to it also.

 

Quite often the AP was a cheerleader during that time. Someone who encouraged them to self destruct. What is fond about that? Afterwards, many are left seeing the AP for who and what they are. And it ain't pretty. That is why they don't think of them at all. They have no intention of having said person in their life again, so what would be the point? It doesn't address any issues inside the WS, or the relationships that they would like to mend.

 

Are there some WS that do recall fondly, sure. All? ABSOLUTELY NOT.

[Journee]

I think the trouble with the bolded portion of the OP is that it is speaking in ALWAYS and NEVER terms.

 

It's like saying ALL affairs are just sex. ALL affairs are about love. All marriages should be saved. Reconciliation should NEVER be a goal.

 

Hogwash.

 

I think it's clear by the WS and fWS that do post that the thoughts can be on either end of the spectrum.

 

I think many posters like to project how they perceive things or how they would like to perceive things into others. There are some real and authentic reconciliations out there. There may be several paths to reach that status.

[dichotomy]

I am a WS trying to save my M. The first thing is that it is NOT like other Rs because the ending is caused by circumstances--we "can't" be together. The natural evolution that ends an R, one person wanting out or falling out of love, doesn't take place. If there is a dday (and sometimes even if there is not) the ending is seen as necessary, for the greater good--even if there is a NC letter. These ambiguous endings can create longing that might not have occurred in a regular break up. Does a BS allow for that fact or deny it as a potential byproduct? Is realizing there are lingering feelings a deal breaker? Should it be? I can't answer any of that.

 

.

 

Your entire post was very thoughtful and echoed what I was kind of thinking with CD' thread I guess. Lets face it, most times, there is a lot of trickle truth and alot withholding by WS. I mean how often would a WS who does want to save the marriage (greater good or what ever reason) share any positive or residual feelings about AP? Or disclosure if and when they were over AP in MC or "put it in a box".

 

What BS could have the strength to let WS deal with thoughts like this openly in MC -while trying to fully put their head and heart back into the marriage.

 

It seems like we want (and maybe it does happen) a quick change of heart within a very short time frame of dDay - that is we think NC naturally comes with no residual glue/thought/feeling for AP. I can tell you in my marriage it took a long time for my wife's view/feelings/perspective to change about AP/MM...and also maybe that as BS I have to accept that some things will also remain with her.

 

I suppose every situation is different, and all Affairs and AP are not the same.

Edited November 18, 2013 by dichotomy

[katielee]

the "lingering feelings" the wayward experiences are feelings the AP mirrored back to them about themselves. This is not a real relationship, it's all fantasy and unicorns.

If the wayward spouse misses anything, its the great ego feed the AP/affair gave them.

My husband was very angry with me when I forced the ending of his affair. So much so that he took up with another woman 3 months later. It wasn't the women so much as the feeling he got from being wanted.

Don't confuse that with actual "feelings" for these people.

[Realist3]

Memories will ALWAYS be fond, but no one is dumb enough to tell their BS that...come on we are talking about people who are trying to stay in their marriages!

 

So I wonder based on this - how full and healthy reconciliation happens if this is not addressed openly? Should WS bear the burden of dealing with this on their own - or maybe in IC, or does this require more honesty with BS and in probably in MC ?

 

While 'always' is a very absolutist statement, which I'm not generally inclined to support, I think it does hold some water. It is a well established fact that we as humans remember the good and try and remove bad memories. Over the years I have had several close relationships(before marriage) and no matter how they all ended up, when I recall any of those it is about the good times. But as was mentioned above, they ran their natural course with a closure.

 

Onto the affair situation. I believe it really hinges on the length of the affair. Affairs that last several weeks or several months and are discovered, and all that goes along with that, would likely have more negative memories because it was a blip in time and the likely consequences over-shadow most of the positives. Affairs that last years I think would lead to more positive memories. Nearing 4 years now in my A, if it ended today it would be nothing but positives. Just last night my MOW and I were walking down memory lane remembering how it started, some of our earliest times together, etc. Back when we were in the so called affair fog. There is no fog anymore. No matter what takes place we will forever have shared a significant part of each others lives that we enjoyed immensely. No dire consequence will ever change that.

 

But yes, Dichotomy, the WS will have to deal with those memories on their own. It is what it is. I understand that everyone is different in how they deal with things, and I think what we see here most often are what I would label as 'dwellers', they over-think everything and have a hard time moving on. That is not a bad thing, it is just who they are. Believe it or not my wife thinks I'm a 'dweller'. She has really helped me with that. "Just let it go." Some people here label that rug sweeping, but I actually have found the wisdom in that. At some point you have to move on, whether it is the WS or the BS, how it is remembered is out of anyone's control.

[AlwaysGrowing]

While 'always' is a very absolutist statement, which I'm not generally inclined to support, I think it does hold some water. It is a well established fact that we as humans remember the good and try and remove bad memories. Over the years I have had several close relationships(before marriage) and no matter how they all ended up, when I recall any of those it is about the good times. But as was mentioned above, they ran their natural course with a closure.

 

Onto the affair situation. I believe it really hinges on the length of the affair. Affairs that last several weeks or several months and are discovered, and all that goes along with that, would likely have more negative memories because it was a blip in time and the likely consequences over-shadow most of the positives. Affairs that last years I think would lead to more positive memories. Nearing 4 years now in my A, if it ended today it would be nothing but positives. Just last night my MOW and I were walking down memory lane remembering how it started, some of our earliest times together, etc. Back when we were in the so called affair fog. There is no fog anymore. No matter what takes place we will forever have shared a significant part of each others lives that we enjoyed immensely. No dire consequence will ever change that.

 

But yes, Dichotomy, the WS will have to deal with those memories on their own. It is what it is. I understand that everyone is different in how they deal with things, and I think what we see here most often are what I would label as 'dwellers', they over-think everything and have a hard time moving on. That is not a bad thing, it is just who they are. Believe it or not my wife thinks I'm a 'dweller'. She has really helped me with that. "Just let it go." Some people here label that rug sweeping, but I actually have found the wisdom in that. At some point you have to move on, whether it is the WS or the BS, how it is remembered is out of anyone's control.

 

Realist I could not disagree with you more.

 

If a relationship was dysfunctional and caused you severe pain, one does not throw out the bad and only hold onto the good. Quite the opposite happens. The bad overshadows the good, because ultimately who cares if someone was kind a hundred times, if every hundred and one times....they beat the crap outta you. You remember what they are capable of, and look at the good as manipulation.

 

 

I believe the major difference would be, how one viewed the affair. If the WS views it as something that they did to someone else, they are more likely to hold onto a rose coloured view of the affair and the ap. If on the other hand, they view it as a short coming/smudge/selling themselves out...they are more apt to view the affair in its totality as negative...all of it..and everyone associated with it.

[Realist3]

If on the other hand, they view it as a short coming/smudge/selling themselves out...they are more apt to view the affair in its totality as negative...all of it..and everyone associated with it.

 

I don't disagree with this, and I think I said as much just indifferent words.

 

There is a thread on the OM/OW board about how long affairs lasted. Some of them are in the 10-15 year mark. Do you really think any of those people will ever have negative memories of their A? Highly doubtful.

 

If the WS views it as something that they did to someone else, they are more likely to hold onto a rose coloured view of the affair and the ap.

 

I'm not even sure what this is supposed to mean. 'Did to someone else'?

 

If a relationship was dysfunctional and caused you severe pain, one does not throw out the bad and only hold onto the good.

 

That is certainly true, but we are not talking about abusive/dysfunctional relationships here. Generally speaking one does not enter into an affair because it makes them feel bad, on the contrary. People into affairs because it makes them feel good. I'm not discounting that fact that some people who enter into affairs have a wide range of emotions. What makes them feel bad is either guilt or the consequences. Like I said previously, I think the memories the WS will have are largely based on the length of the affair.

[velvette]

Realist I could not disagree with you more.

 

If a relationship was dysfunctional and caused you severe pain, one does not throw out the bad and only hold onto the good. Quite the opposite happens. The bad overshadows the good, because ultimately who cares if someone was kind a hundred times, if every hundred and one times....they beat the crap outta you. You remember what they are capable of, and look at the good as manipulation.

 

 

I believe the major difference would be, how one viewed the affair. If the WS views it as something that they did to someone else, they are more likely to hold onto a rose coloured view of the affair and the ap. If on the other hand, they view it as a short coming/smudge/selling themselves out...they are more apt to view the affair in its totality as negative...all of it..and everyone associated with it.

 

I agree and its called negativity bias. Most people have greater recall of negative things than positive things. Its a defense mechanism to keep us from repeating the same negative thing.

 

Additionally, in R it generally takes 5 positive interactions to overcome the damage of one negative interaction if you want the R to stay healthy/happy.

[AlwaysGrowing]

I don't disagree with this, and I think I said as much just indifferent words.

 

There is a thread on the OM/OW board about how long affairs lasted. Some of them are in the 10-15 year mark. Do you really think any of those people will ever have negative memories of their A? Highly doubtful.

 

 

 

I'm not even sure what this is supposed to mean. 'Did to someone else'?

 

 

 

That is certainly true, but we are not talking about abusive/dysfunctional relationships here. Generally speaking one does not enter into an affair because it makes them feel bad, on the contrary. People into affairs because it makes them feel good. I'm not discounting that fact that some people who enter into affairs have a wide range of emotions. What makes them feel bad is either guilt or the consequences. Like I said previously, I think the memories the WS will have are largely based on the length of the affair.

 

What I mean Realist, is that some WS view the affair as having done something wrong to another (their partner), while others view it as a betrayal of themselves first, the damage to others as collateral damage. Two totally different mindsets.

 

People only enter relationships that make them feel good? Does good equate to healthy?

 

People take crack cocaine because it makes them feel good too, I don't think many former addicts look back fondly on the crack though.Again, they look at who they had to become to have that crack...and it aint pretty.

 

And to state that affairs have no dysfunction in them, is denying the very nexus of most affairs. They are the poster child of dysfunction.

 

Are there WS that do not hold those views...absolutely. Does the length of affair matter, maybe. I have heard of LTA's where the WS viewed the AP as sex only kind of relationship.

 

I still hold the view, that how a WS views WHO they hurt is the best indicator of how they look back on the affair and the AP.

[Realist3]

What I mean Realist, is that some WS view the affair as having done something wrong to another (their partner), while others view it as a betrayal of themselves first, the damage to others as collateral damage. Two totally different mindsets.

 

People only enter relationships that make them feel good? Does good equate to healthy?

 

People take crack cocaine because it makes them feel good too, I don't think many former addicts look back fondly on the crack though.Again, they look at who they had to become to have that crack...and it aint pretty.

 

And to state that affairs have no dysfunction in them, is denying the very nexus of most affairs. They are the poster child of dysfunction.

 

Are there WS that do not hold those views...absolutely. Does the length of affair matter, maybe. I have heard of LTA's where the WS viewed the AP as sex only kind of relationship.

 

You are moving the goalposts here. I wasn't aware the OP was trying to assess whether affairs were healthy/unhealthy/good/bad or not.

 

I have done my fair share of cocaine in my life. Was it healthy? Absolutely not. Did I have some great times? Oh you betcha. But when I remember those times I don't find myself focusing on the negatives.

 

I still hold the view, that how a WS views WHO they hurt is the best indicator of how they look back on the affair and the AP.

 

That very well could be, and I said that guilt and consequences play a role. But the fact remains that no BS has any clue how the WS looks back on the affair in their heart. Words don't mean anything.

 

The original posit was this:

 

So I wonder based on this - how full and healthy reconciliation happens if this is not addressed openly? Should WS bear the burden of dealing with this on their own

 

I think reconciliation can take place regardless of any good memories the WS may have about the A. There is no controlling or talking through those memories; they are what they are.

[Furious]

Ok,

 

So compulsivedancer started a thread specifically targeted at WS and thoughts of AP after Dday. How and when thoughts and feelings go away - when it stops.

 

Moderators stepped in because BS's were jumping on - outside of the constraint of the question to WS only and steering it towards their own agendas. I would like to open it up to BS and WS and anyone else.

 

I will start specifically with one comment from poster that "triggered" me wanting to jump on the other thread.

 

Memories will ALWAYS be fond, but no one is dumb enough to tell their BS that...come on we are talking about people who are trying to stay in their marriages!

 

So I wonder based on this - how full and healthy reconciliation happens if this is not addressed openly? Should WS bear the burden of dealing with this on their own - or maybe in IC, or does this require more honesty with BS and in probably in MC ?

 

My husband describes it as getting drunk at a party and then driving drunk and killing an innocent pedestrian. A truly remorseful spouse has no fond memories of time they made horrible choices that hurt those that loved them.

[AlwaysGrowing]

Again, Realist, if you are a person who remove yourself from the act, then it does not apply to you. For those that can not, unhealthy does make a difference.

 

The original question was based on a falsehood, so how can one address something that does not exist?

 

Can it exist...sure. The absolute of it does not.

[drifter777]

...I will start specifically with one comment from poster that "triggered" me wanting to jump on the other thread.

 

Memories will ALWAYS be fond, but no one is dumb enough to tell their BS that...come on we are talking about people who are trying to stay in their marriages!

 

I didn't read this particular post, nor has this ever crossed my mind - thankfully. Just the thought that my wife has fond memories of OM makes me sick to my stomach. If she does then she better keep them to herself because if she ever told me this it would be the end of our marriage. I agree that if a WS wanted to reconcile they would probably never speak of the fond memories they have of that time, that person, and the activities they experienced while cheating and stabbing the BS in the heart.

[Realist3]

The original question was based on a falsehood, so how can one address something that does not exist?

 

But it does exist. The affair happened or it didn't. They took joy from it at the time or they wouldn't have done it. Just because the choice to have the affair may have been unhealthy doesn't in and of itself erase the good memories or feelings of whatever was felt at the time. Just because something ends up being bad does not mean all of it was bad in a person's mind.

 

Just last December I went on a neighborhood hayride(I don't live in the country) to look at Christmas lights. Could not have had a better time. Afterwards I decide to jog back home in the dark and trip over a busted sidewalk and break my hand. I certainly remember the great time I had as well as the broken hand. The point is good and bad memories of any given event are not mutually exclusive.

 

Furious, upstairs, just said "NO truly remorseful spouse...". Wishful thinking.

Edited November 18, 2013 by Realist3

[Sub]

I'm sure my WW has a few fond memories of the OM. There's nothing I can do about that, except create newer, fonder memories for her of me. The problem would be one of longing, if she missed the feelings those memories were attached to. Knowing her, and knowing certain aspects of the A, the chances are slim of that happening. She now refers to the OM like the song, he's just "Somebody That I Used to Know".

[lilmisscantbewrong]

I'm sure my WW has a few fond memories of the OM. There's nothing I can do about that, except create newer, fonder memories for her of me. The problem would be one of longing, if she missed the feelings those memories were attached to. Knowing her, and knowing certain aspects of the A, the chances are slim of that happening. She now refers to the OM like the song, he's just "Somebody That I Used to Know".

 

This is it exactly. I wish (to Drifter's point) that I could say that ALL of my memories are bad - they are not. They are fading and certainly I recognize that the good memories are all surrounded now by the huge and devastating fallout of my decisions, but for me - because things did not follow a "natural course" (and by that the relationship fading out or ending on it's own as many do), it took a very long time to see the reality of it. Now it's like I watch a movie in my mind and can't believe that was me. I would NEVER tell my husband now that there are times that things are still thought of fondly.

 

I am also a BS and I would expect that my husband probably has a few fond memories of his XOW. He knows his decisions blew up her life (in that she had to leave a job and friends that she liked), but I know he is also a very kind man and he isn't one to want to hurt anyone either - it was a horrible time for both of us. If I were to ask him, I think he would be honest with me and tell me, but at this point we are just trying to move on.

 

Is it all of the time? No it isn't. My husband and I are working to create NEW and BETTER memories that will hopefully have the old ones fade into the distant past. For us, because we were all so intertwined and we still live in the same community, it is extremely hard. Just the other day I was at a meeting at the school and I looked up at the athlete boards for records and whose name was up there?? XOM - it's my daughter's school, the school my husband, myself and XOM and his BS all graduated from. There is always something.

 

Anyway - that song is something of a mantra to me now - it IS how I am feeling.

[AlwaysGrowing]

But it does exist. The affair happened or it didn't. They took joy from it at the time or they wouldn't have done it. Just because the choice to have the affair may have been unhealthy doesn't in and of itself erase the good memories or feelings of whatever was felt at the time. Just because something ends up being bad does not mean all of it was bad in a person's mind.

 

Just last December I went on a neighborhood hayride(I don't live in the country) to look at Christmas lights. Could not have had a better time. Afterwards I decide to jog back home in the dark and trip over a busted sidewalk and break my hand. I certainly remember the great time I had as well as the broken hand. The point is good and bad memories of any given event are not mutually exclusive.

 

Furious, upstairs, just said "NO truly remorseful spouse...". Wishful thinking.

 

 

What the heck does going on a hayride have to do with jogging in the dark. If you were to say, that you caught a flesh eating disease from sitting on the buggy and you lost your job, then your house, believe me...you would not be saying....oh...the day that destroyed my life...was just sooooo beautiful.

 

Again, if that is how you work, then that is how you work. To say that ALL WS feel the way the original question is asked is ridiculous.