saaben900 Posted November 16, 2013 Posted November 16, 2013 Hi All, Very first post...and this may be lengthy. I guess I could try the clif notes version and see how that sounds... me and my wife have been together 25 years, high school sweethearts. I'm 43 now. I'm a recovering addict, church goer, business owner with employees, dad of 2 teenage boys, endurance athlete...so you can imagine I am and we have been BUSY! about 2 years ago, after 5 years of acting out in addict behavior off an on, I ended up participating in an affair. The affair lasted 14 months. before I was officially outed, I came clean...I couldnt handle the double life, I was using drugs, having an affair and trying to maintain a family life. I was an utter and complete mess. Once I confessed and came clean on everything, I relentlessly pursued a journey of addiction recovery, marriage recovery, self recovery, relationship recovery...I mean I took recovery and repentance to a new level. I dedicated the next 9 months to NA meetings at least 3 a week, mens retreats, affair workshops, church, marriage counseling, individual counseling and spending all my other time with my wife trying to help her recover. I never looked back after my confession...i went into addict obsessive mode about fixing my marriage because it seemed like the right thing to do. It was an exhausting 9 months, but I kept at it reaching out to all my support and keeping my self laser focused. I also had zero contact with my affair partner. During these nine months, if I was going to get honest with someone, including myself, I could not stop thinking about my affair partner. I battled these thoughts with all my recovery tools and tried everything I could to escape the thoughts of missing her, desiring her and feeling wanted and special. I could only disclose to people around me that I still have "memories" of my affair partner that I'm trying to get over. But what it was in my reality...internal torture. I just kept it buried and kept trying to fight it out of my life. My wife was slightly aware I would struggle, but I didnt want to let her in on how much because I know it would crush her. My wife would show glimpses of making some positive changes in her life that helped me feel connected and satisfied with her, but it was only glimpses. I could tell that it took alot of energy and effort on her part to keep up on personal hygiene and taking care of herself. But when she did start caring for herself, it did help alleviate my obsessive missing my affair partner. Over the 9 months...if I ever did mention anything about the slightest desire of my needs, it would be like disclosure day all over again...melt downs from her, screaming at me and all that emotional wreckage would come out. I would just take it all and not say anything to provoke more. At our last marriage counseling session...I had just finished an endurance race, my wife came and watched me as she would frequently come to watch. In our counseling session I expressed with deep emotion that I wished I had someone to actually do these activities with, like an active participant. I said it in the easiest way possible, crying the whole frigin time. Well, that was it...she flipped out and told me to leave...which was typical. This time I left...I moved out and got a room. This time I was gutted, emptied, nothing left to give. I told her I had been gutted. I have laid out on the floor for everyone to observe and have their way with me. I have complied to all requests for recovery. I have done everything I can. I'm done. The level of turmoil living like this is too much, I will leave. I would rather be alone in a room and be at peace. I have been gone for 1.5 months now. I still go to the house, that is where my home office is. So we still see each other, I see the kids, I do things with the kids. I told her I want a divorce. I cant do this anymore. She is still responding in the same ways to me. maybe at different intensity's but with the same message. I'm a lonely mess. Another reason why I decided to leave is I have had so much torture over the radical amputation of my affair partner, that I made the decision to contact her. I am not looking to have sex with her or a long term relationship...I need to know if I actually have feelings for her. After nine months of not being able to get her out of my head...I need to find out why and get an end to that question. If that leads to a relationship, or no relationship or final closure and I can go on then fine...I am not trying to define the goal of talking to her, I just know that I have unresolved stuff to deal with concerning her. I am going to NA meetings almost every night, I have a sponsor and I am working my recovery. I miss my wife for very specific reasons...I dont miss her behaviors that got me here. I know it takes 2, and I have OVER owned my part....she is quick to say it's all on me...and I have not gotten a different message from her. I told her divorce...I dont know if that will actually happen, but I am taking steps to something instead of just sitting and floundering. It's not over till the papers are signed...so I know there is time. I just dont have high hopes that she can work her recovery and come back on a better path. Anyhow...more later, I think that is enough to get started. saaben900
Yasuandio Posted November 16, 2013 Posted November 16, 2013 What came first, the chicken or the egg? So, you distroy your wife (and it shows in her hygiene), and now you have a good reason to justify effing your affair partner. That sounds reasonable. Why not just go for that - or try to have both for as long as you can stand the screaming? Man, you are a typical cake eater, plain and simple. You are about to lose your family for this temporary squeeze - that boosts your big fat ego. When it's all said and done, you'll be looking for a new fix. An addict is an addict. Yas 5
beach Posted November 16, 2013 Posted November 16, 2013 2 years clean now? Have you sponsored others? Was your OW an active participant in your drug use? What was your drug of choice? What made you think trying to juggle and control your wife was the right thing to do?
Eggplant Posted November 16, 2013 Posted November 16, 2013 You are not okay. You need to recover mentally from all this trauma. Do you have a therapist? I'm sure the abusive substance hasn't done much good either. Declare yourself in time out. Your wife should do the same. Everybody desperately needs the love and support of their respective families and counselors.
heartshaped Posted November 16, 2013 Posted November 16, 2013 I am going to be brutally honest. You are an addict. You will never stop being an addict. It isn't something you can recover from and it says a lot about you as a person, your behaviors, and your decision making process. It is wonderful that you have been clean (I'm assuming) for the last nine months. Nine months, however, is a drop in the bucket. You are still very early on in the process of trying to control your addiction, clear your head, and change your thought processes as much as possible. That alone is clouding your judgment. You haven't been able to stop thinking about your affair partner probably for the same reason you think about what substance you're addicted to everyday. It's a compulsion. It's something that you did that made you feel good so you think about it and you want to do it. It's normal. It's how humans function especially when and if their life isn't going well or the way they want it to. It doesn't equal feelings or love or anything else. It's an affair "fog" so to speak where you view this other person in this great light because he/she fulfills a need that is not being met in your marriage. It's bullcrap honestly. While you may feel that your wife is not owning her part in this and that may be true, many would say your wife's part in this is very, very minute. She did not choose for you to go out and have an affair nor for you to develop an addiction. She may not be owning or working on herself or your marriage, but then again, nine months ago you ripped the rug out from under her by confessing to having an affair that lasted for over a year. You do not get to be judgmental, upset, angry, or anything else about the way your wife responds to that. You just don't. If you want for any reason to work your marriage out realize that you are going to need a whole lot more therapy, recovery, and simply time. You cannot and should not ever talk to your affair partner again and you will have to be more understanding of your wife. 2
Author saaben900 Posted November 16, 2013 Author Posted November 16, 2013 Thanks for the responses...I get it. Yas - I dont really have much to say about what you said...I'm just going to continue my recovery process. Beach - I have just over 9 months clean. My affair partner did not use with me. My wife became tolerant of my using as time went on. My drug of choice was prescription narcotics, not that it matters. Juggling and controlling my wife...not sure, I was just in the thick of using and acting out in a big way. Eggplant - Thanks for your response...I think it simply says it. It took me these 9 months to realize that I should have gone in "time out" from the beginning. I really do believe that the only path left for me was to separate myself from everything, move into a room on my own and take how ever long to get some semblance of healthy. The level of exhaustion I have is overwhelming in itself. I have tried so so hard to make things right. Heartshaped - Thanks for your response. It was clear and has alot to offer. I have been clean for the past nine months. And it is a drop in the bucket. I dont want to think I have it all together...I realize this is just the beginning. Thinking about my affair partner can and could be an addict compulsion thing and I need to learn how to diffuse it and be "delivered" from it. I begged God day and night to take it away from me. I read books, talked to people, cried in isolation, talked more about it, had zero contact. And I was literally haunted day and night of her memories. I was getting zero relief. For whatever reason the continual thoughts in the first 4 months were bad, then it did ease up for a couple months, then the deep thoughts, feelings and emotions came back even worse for the last few months. I really really believe I took all the right steps and actions to get on track...and in the end, I was either going to use for relief, put one round in my head or move out. I cant make it clear enough the extent I went to so that my wife would have the best possible chance of getting through her stuff. My therapist, which is an addiction counselor told me after 7 months that even he was at a loss for words on how hard I have worked and everything I laid down to salvage my marriage. Really though, in looking back. after disclosure, I should have just left. My marriage has been on a slippery slope for almost 10 years. I started using as a way to deal with the feelings of no contentment and resentment to my wife. I fully own what I did and have taken all responsibility for my actions. People have noticed that since I moved out, I am more even, less stressed and more productive. I am able to focus at work, run a business and be more clear minded. I am not consumed with "is my wife happy today, did I say the wrong thing, did I forget to hug her, did I not say enough, did I say to much, did I not say I love you, was I too far away in bed, did I not stay in the same room long enough" blah blah blah....literally everyday, every night of continual and hyper concern for her so she would not meltdown and start railing me all over again. Anyhow...enough for now...thanks saaben900
secretlady76 Posted November 16, 2013 Posted November 16, 2013 When D-Day hits it is a massive trauma. It is natural to go on manic recovery mode, dump the AP and go all out to save the marriage. Look at the OW/OM section on this forum (which you will find very useful) and you will see the same story over and over again. Heartbroken women and men, married, not married etc.... What you needed to do and did not/could not do was grieve for your AP and unfortunately, it comes out sooner or later. The shock of going from 100mph affair to 0 is massive. I totally sympathise with you being hounded by thoughts of her. I would have quite gladly cut my right arm off if it meant I did not feel the grief that I felt after DDay. The worst thing I have ever experienced......and being married myself I couldn't show it to a soul. I actually think it may be a good thing to contact your AP once you've had some time out. If nothing else it may close the chapter for you, answer some questions, you may find that in fact she isn't as amazing as you remember, maybe your feelings for her are as strong as they always have been and her the same for you..... I don't know..... but it seems to me that No Contact hasn't helped you much so perhaps contact may be a good thing.... Recovery after D-Day is very very tough. Your wife was probably trying hard to improve herself in the hope that you would desire her more. However, there is only so much someone can do. I'm afraid someone can't have a personality transplant and she will always be the person she is. The affair would have been a massive knock to her self-confidence. However if you do decide not to continue your marriage then let her go find someone who will love her just the way she is....don't keep her hanging onto hope that you may come back sometime in the future. And well done on the addiction recovery. Wow, what a lot to deal with in such a short space of time.
dreamingoftigers Posted November 16, 2013 Posted November 16, 2013 Sigh.... Been there done that..... On the other side if it of course. You are not at all centered yet and are still being dishonest with those around you, hyper-critical of your partner and escaping when you feel overwhelmed instead if dealing with the issues. You still have the same problems you did nine months ago, just with different symptoms and damned if your wife can't tell that you still aren't checked-in. You are white-knuckling and still lying to yourself and everyone around you. You are trying to protect the way your AP made you feel instead of examining it for what it was. And surprise, surprise a long-suffering wife whose self-esteem has been obliterated is not going to compare to that. Of course she is going to knee-jerk and tell you to leave. YOU'VE SET HER UP FOR THAT! You've nurtured your feelings about your AP for NINE ADDITIONAL MONTHS and protected them from true examination by denying to others just how much you've been focusing on her. Would it crush your wife? Probably. But you're crushing her anyway and on top of it you ARE blaming her for it. Furthermore, you express genuine feeling in your MC session and she knee-jerk reacts to give you the boot. She put up with your crap for FIVE YEARS and you can't handle her hygiene and the MC process. That's lame. Why should she try extra-hard for someone that treats her the way that you do? Of course you have "less stress." You are still escaping your responsibilities as a recovering addict and husband. A lot of off addicts are users, and not just of drugs, but of people. They use their time, emotions, energy, money, efforts etc. they tend to view it as a "right" to use them in such ways because they are "in a relationship." I can honestly say that I have had this mentality in the past before, that figuring I told someone that "I love them" was as good as behaving that way. That them knowing I "intended" to do well by them should be good enough even if I rarely acted like it or followed-through on my promises. Frankly, if your wife isn't the woman you remember falling in love with, it may very well be because for five years you were completely dishonest to her abd sucked the life out of her. Your AP can't fill this void in you either. It won't last. Because we feel the best about the relationships that we put the most into without feeling "entitled" to a return. You can't do this with your AP because she sees you in a way that isn't genuine. She doesn't live with your demons the way that your wife has. And frankly, for splitting up and running away after less than 18 months after starting your recovery process, that was pretty idiotic. Learn to cope. You need it. 2
dreamingoftigers Posted November 16, 2013 Posted November 16, 2013 Congratulations on your prescription drug sobriety.
BeingMe Posted November 17, 2013 Posted November 17, 2013 I cant make it clear enough the extent I went to so that my wife would have the best possible chance of getting through her stuff. My therapist, which is an addiction counselor told me after 7 months that even he was at a loss for words on how hard I have worked and everything I laid down to salvage my marriage. Really though, in looking back. after disclosure, I should have just left. My marriage has been on a slippery slope for almost 10 years. I started using as a way to deal with the feelings of no contentment and resentment to my wife. I fully own what I did and have taken all responsibility for my actions. People have noticed that since I moved out, I am more even, less stressed and more productive. I am able to focus at work, run a business and be more clear minded. I am not consumed with "is my wife happy today, did I say the wrong thing, did I forget to hug her, did I not say enough, did I say to much, did I not say I love you, was I too far away in bed, did I not stay in the same room long enough" blah blah blah....literally everyday, every night of continual and hyper concern for her so she would not meltdown and start railing me all over again. Anyhow...enough for now...thanks saaben900 You haven't moved on from the affair. You're saying what you think are the right words, but you're lacking in some important ACTIONS. 1. Stop blame-shifting onto your wife (you keep blaming her in your post). You made choices to have the affair and all of the actions that led to it. You cannot control how she feels or reacts, you can only work on you. And given that you caused her this dreadful pain, you have no right to judge how she reacts to that or try to use it to justify leaving, or contacting your OW. 2. All of what you're saying screams out that you're not mentally out of the affair. You need to cut off contact with your OW forever. Any contact you have is likely to reignite the affair. Yes, it reads as if that's what you want, but it won't actually solve anything - it's just a way of staying in denial and avoiding looking at the deep down reasons for your affair. You cannot work on you while you're in affair addiction. You need to stay no contact, mentally (ie no looking up her facebook page etc) as well as verbally, physically etc. You will suffer from withdrawal, but you know what happens if you succumb to an addiction, it's never just once. 3. You need to dig deep and work out why you had the affair. How you felt about your wife did not make you have the affair. You say that you should have left when she discovered the affair? No, you should have left before you had the affair. None of that stuff about your wife is the real reason for your affair. Just from reading your posts, I would suggest beginning with looking at the need for approval from others,especially women and looking into co-dependency: the way you felt about your wife's feelings about you is not normal or healthy, but it's not about her, it's about something inside you that let it become unhealthily important. 4. Once you've found your deep down reasons, you then need to work on making changes in yourself so that those things don't continue to destroy your relationships 5. You need to put effective boundaries in place,not just to protect yourself from having another affair, but so that you feel able to say how you feel and able to say no to anything that makes you feel uncomfortable. This will take time and you're likely to feel that you're being rude etc, but it's actually just about being emotionally healthy. If you made these changes, chances are your wife would see you as a safer person to be with and to open up to. But even if you don't reconcile, you'd be healthier for your next relationship - but not with your OW, because that wouldn't give you the emotional room to heal. 4
littlejaz Posted November 18, 2013 Posted November 18, 2013 saaben900 - I congratulate you on admitting and working on your addiction. It sounds to me that you have tried to take responsibility for your actions, but that doesn't change the problems that were in place before the addiction and the affair started. Your story really hits home to me as my STBXH is addicted to prescription pain meds. But he is in such denial, he says they don't affect him and his therapist told me he wasn't addicted because he doesn't go from doctor to doctor. He gets all the pain meds from one doctor and then he takes 6 or 7 anti psychotic drugs from psychiatrist. But she doesn't live with him (I don't either now and haven't for almost 2 years). The drugs cost him his job. We had lots of problems before the drugs. Once he lost his job he started surfing internet marital affair websites looking for someone to cheat with. I don't know for sure if he ever actually had sex with someone else but I don't care. That was it for me. But reading your story makes me wonder if I might have been willing to at least try to save our marriage if he had admitted and worked on the addiction. But as I said before that wouldn't have addressed the problems before the addiction. Anyway I would like to hear more about what was going on before you turned to drugs. Maybe we can help each other see the other side.
Author saaben900 Posted November 23, 2013 Author Posted November 23, 2013 (edited) Sorry, have not posted in a while. I realized after I posted a couple times that I am putting my self out there for the "world" to see and comment on. Candidly, I was not sure if that was the right thing to do in hindsight. After reading the responses, my world fell apart, I wanted to scream "doesn't anyone understand me". That does not apply to all the responses, but some of them...but whatever. I'm powerless over peoples responses, and I did CHOOSE to put myself out there. so I will own any discomfort I caused myself. I guess to get to the point...how are things going.... I'm still clean, still going to meetings, participating in meetings and my God appeared in my life like a week ago. My loving and caring God that is. So that has brought a new peace into my life. My wife has taken the road of NC since I put divorce on the table a couple weeks ago. I am actually test driving Empathy and what that is all about...so I can try to understand her situation. She reached out to me a couple days ago to talk...the discussion was mainly to let me know that if I am talking about divorce, she is going to distance herself from me. I'm going to offer some other information here...and this is very personal stuff. after my face to face with my wife, I sat in my car and brain dumped as much of the convo as I could into notes on my phone. I wanted to have the content available to reflect back on, not use as ammo, but to help me remember what was said and maybe it will be helpful in the process. Just to preface this...this is just me typing out the recollection of the convo, so it's a bit scattered. Also, I did not really respond to her...when it was my turn to talk, i simply told her where I was at in my recovery. So this is my notes....it's a few paragraphs... 11-21 She asked to talk. She expressed not feeling released from marriage. Not wanting to have the treatment she has had in the past. Will only accept someone that makes her feel happy, secure and loved. Will distance herself from me if I'm talking divorce. She does not want any part of divorce. Mentioned feeling vulnerable to Mr right coming along. Would not allow me back in the house even if I begged. Mostly wanted to let me know that her distance is just due to me talking divorce. She also had to let me know that she went out with friends, is wondering how this now feels to have an opportunity to look at what is out there. She told me she is down to 140 pounds feels amazing. Going to gym. Expressed the similar feelings as I have regarding what do we do with 25 Years of history. No one knows her like I do and that is part of not feeling released from me. She is asking God for release from me and to change her heart I guess to be over me. At the beginning of the conversation she said something that annoyed the s**t out of me. I can't remember exactly what it was. I want to say it was something along the lines of "she wants someone that is going to love her and take her just as she is" I expressed my annoyance by tossing something from my hand onto the desk, she asked if I was annoyed, I said no, she said she didn't care if I was. She also said she is more confident and knows who she is more than ever. I was waiting to hear more along the lines of "I'm sorry for not being there like i should have been," or tell me that she will take some responsibility for what has happened in our marriage. She did tell me that it may take her a lifetime to forgive me. She said the forgive part right at the beginning. My heart sank. I don't know what this was about exactly. I guess letting me know where she is at regarding distancing. I also felt like she continued to say the same things as before. Things like accept her as she is, not tolerating the suffering she went through. I guess the suffering I caused. I'm still hung up on her taking responsibility for something. I can't help but want to put it out there and say own some s**t. I didn't say a word about the weight and gym thing. What I wanted to say is I'm glad I could help u get there and f**k u for waiting till now to do it. She also said how she dreams and gets excited to find that person that will give the love and happiness that she so desperately has begged for. That really bugs the f***ing s**t out of me. END OF NOTES So go ahead and have a field day with that one. Oh yea...as far as my contact with the OW...I have put that on ice...I dont need or want a distraction in my life until I get this marriage thing settled. Really at this point for me...I want to talk about the crap that was broken PRE AFFAIR. A week before this separation, we had just started to talk about what was wrong in our marriage and that is what blew things up...and it always blown things up. She has a real issue with owning anything or apologizing for anything...always has. so for the readers that are going to tell me to go screw for having the affair and that I should just grovel in the dirt some more and cater to her and blah blah blah...been there done that and over it. Put yourself in my shoes...should you care to ask...i spent 25 years with her...25 years of putting my head down and going to work day after day, building a million dollar business and all she wants to do is take the checks to the bank, sit on the couch and watch tv, eat chips and ice cream and talk about how tired she is all the time. She has zero hobbies, and has lived a Co-Dependent life around me. I have always, always, ALWAYS made myself available for her, my kids and creating a home life. I may be busy with work, but I never let that take away from my family...so dont get the impression I'm a work feign and I neglected her. I can tell you one thing FOR SURE. If my convo with her had one tiny sentence of her saying something like "I know I could have done some things different years ago", it would have CHANGED MY WORLD to actually want to give her some love. I hope her Mr Right comes along and offers her all she dreams of....whatever. Saaben900 Edited November 23, 2013 by saaben900
littlejaz Posted November 25, 2013 Posted November 25, 2013 I am confused. She's going to distance herself from you if you talk divorce, but she wants to be released from her feelings for you. Don't get it??? But I understand where you are coming from if she isn't going to take any responsibility for things she has done in the marriage. No it doesn't excuse you having an affair but it also doesn't just go away. It takes to screw up a marriage and it takes two to fix one. All I can say is I wish my STBXH would have taken any responsibility for his actions, we may have had a chance if he had. I admire that you are working so hard on getting your life together. It may not fix your marriage, but I think you will be much happier with yourself.
ThatsJustHowIRoll Posted November 25, 2013 Posted November 25, 2013 You are still blame shifting. Stop it. 3
Author saaben900 Posted November 26, 2013 Author Posted November 26, 2013 You are still blame shifting. Stop it. Huh...i actually had to read some definitions of blame shifting...thought maybe I had the incorrect meaning of it. Not really clear on where I am doing this. Usually I stay quite while my wife is telling me regularly that I have done so much wrong. After living like that for years and owning my wrongs I am now just letting out the obvious of what I have lived with. Whatever.
littlejaz Posted November 26, 2013 Posted November 26, 2013 saaben, Ignore them, some people on here are like a broken record. They get stuck on one thing and can't get past it. As I have said before you were wrong in having the affair but that does not erase all the things that were going on before then. Your wife must take responsibility for the things that she did in the marriage too. It is not a one sided street. Also, as I said in my last post, I am confused, does your wife want to divorce or not? You said she is distancing herself from you if you talk divorce. That sounds like she wants to work on the marriage but then you say she wants released from the marriage. I just reread your post, maybe it is that she doesn't want a divorce as long as you own up to and correct all your faults and just live with her faults. Is that what she wants??
tiredofitall2 Posted November 26, 2013 Posted November 26, 2013 Sorry, have not posted in a while. I realized after I posted a couple times that I am putting my self out there for the "world" to see and comment on. Candidly, I was not sure if that was the right thing to do in hindsight. After reading the responses, my world fell apart, I wanted to scream "doesn't anyone understand me". That does not apply to all the responses, but some of them...but whatever. I'm powerless over peoples responses, and I did CHOOSE to put myself out there. so I will own any discomfort I caused myself. I guess to get to the point...how are things going.... I'm still clean, still going to meetings, participating in meetings and my God appeared in my life like a week ago. My loving and caring God that is. So that has brought a new peace into my life. My wife has taken the road of NC since I put divorce on the table a couple weeks ago. I am actually test driving Empathy and what that is all about...so I can try to understand her situation. She reached out to me a couple days ago to talk...the discussion was mainly to let me know that if I am talking about divorce, she is going to distance herself from me. I'm going to offer some other information here...and this is very personal stuff. after my face to face with my wife, I sat in my car and brain dumped as much of the convo as I could into notes on my phone. I wanted to have the content available to reflect back on, not use as ammo, but to help me remember what was said and maybe it will be helpful in the process. Just to preface this...this is just me typing out the recollection of the convo, so it's a bit scattered. Also, I did not really respond to her...when it was my turn to talk, i simply told her where I was at in my recovery. So this is my notes....it's a few paragraphs... 11-21 She asked to talk. She expressed not feeling released from marriage. Not wanting to have the treatment she has had in the past. Will only accept someone that makes her feel happy, secure and loved. Will distance herself from me if I'm talking divorce. She does not want any part of divorce. Mentioned feeling vulnerable to Mr right coming along. Would not allow me back in the house even if I begged. Mostly wanted to let me know that her distance is just due to me talking divorce. She also had to let me know that she went out with friends, is wondering how this now feels to have an opportunity to look at what is out there. She told me she is down to 140 pounds feels amazing. Going to gym. Expressed the similar feelings as I have regarding what do we do with 25 Years of history. No one knows her like I do and that is part of not feeling released from me. She is asking God for release from me and to change her heart I guess to be over me. At the beginning of the conversation she said something that annoyed the s**t out of me. I can't remember exactly what it was. I want to say it was something along the lines of "she wants someone that is going to love her and take her just as she is" I expressed my annoyance by tossing something from my hand onto the desk, she asked if I was annoyed, I said no, she said she didn't care if I was. She also said she is more confident and knows who she is more than ever. I was waiting to hear more along the lines of "I'm sorry for not being there like i should have been," or tell me that she will take some responsibility for what has happened in our marriage. She did tell me that it may take her a lifetime to forgive me. She said the forgive part right at the beginning. My heart sank. I don't know what this was about exactly. I guess letting me know where she is at regarding distancing. I also felt like she continued to say the same things as before. Things like accept her as she is, not tolerating the suffering she went through. I guess the suffering I caused. I'm still hung up on her taking responsibility for something. I can't help but want to put it out there and say own some s**t. I didn't say a word about the weight and gym thing. What I wanted to say is I'm glad I could help u get there and f**k u for waiting till now to do it. She also said how she dreams and gets excited to find that person that will give the love and happiness that she so desperately has begged for. That really bugs the f***ing s**t out of me. END OF NOTES So go ahead and have a field day with that one. Oh yea...as far as my contact with the OW...I have put that on ice...I dont need or want a distraction in my life until I get this marriage thing settled. Really at this point for me...I want to talk about the crap that was broken PRE AFFAIR. A week before this separation, we had just started to talk about what was wrong in our marriage and that is what blew things up...and it always blown things up. She has a real issue with owning anything or apologizing for anything...always has. so for the readers that are going to tell me to go screw for having the affair and that I should just grovel in the dirt some more and cater to her and blah blah blah...been there done that and over it. Put yourself in my shoes...should you care to ask...i spent 25 years with her...25 years of putting my head down and going to work day after day, building a million dollar business and all she wants to do is take the checks to the bank, sit on the couch and watch tv, eat chips and ice cream and talk about how tired she is all the time. She has zero hobbies, and has lived a Co-Dependent life around me. I have always, always, ALWAYS made myself available for her, my kids and creating a home life. I may be busy with work, but I never let that take away from my family...so dont get the impression I'm a work feign and I neglected her. I can tell you one thing FOR SURE. If my convo with her had one tiny sentence of her saying something like "I know I could have done some things different years ago", it would have CHANGED MY WORLD to actually want to give her some love. I hope her Mr Right comes along and offers her all she dreams of....whatever. Saaben900 What you are not understanding is that although she is probably aware that the marriage was not perfect and that she has flaws like everyone else. You and your A are the main cause of the current situation. It is like trying to deal with a scrape on your arm when you're having a heart attack. Both of you will have to deal with the issues that perhaps contributed to your drug use and A, but right now you cannot blame shift and expect her to apologize for anything. Your are back to speaking with your AP and still you expect the affair fog to dissipate. Well it wont happen because you are not taking the steps needed to recover for the affair fog. Yes, she loves you and that is why she is saying and acting the way she is. She is warning you that she will let you go and will find someone. Perhaps a rebound or an exit affair and this will devastate you and will most likely finally end your marriage. It is obvious you still lover her based on your reaction to her wanting to find someone to love her. How does one fall back in love? By nit focusing on their flaws and focusing on the good traits. By saying I love you and showing their love with actions. Just like you did with your AP. If you keep justifying your actions you will only end your marriage. And I will GUARANTEE you will be sorry for your decision. Even if you end up with the OW you will always regret it and when you see your and your children you will be in deep pain for a very, very long time. 3
dreamingoftigers Posted November 26, 2013 Posted November 26, 2013 I am glad you came back. This is a hard process and you can feel pretty "torn down" on the forum sometime. Your situation is particularly intense and it seems that there's some information you haven't processed yet. Like the empathy portion. Empathy is key to human relationships and despite your "test drive" it seems the car stalked on the next block. Now the very thing you are expecting from your wife at this point IS empathy. And I'm willing to bet that by seeing her other actions ..... Including even they way she is talking to you and trying to spare YÔU the divorce (and yes, that IS what she's doing) she has offered you boatloads of empathy over the years but hasn't managed to say the one magic phrase that you hoped she would. You are even resenting her potentially finding a new partner while you've found your own PRIOR to divorcing. What's wrong with this picture? 1. You expect better behaviour from her than your willing to offer to her. 2. You are treating your actions like a bug on the windshield while hers are like a moose coming through the windshield (I'm Canadian, just go with the moose analogy). When in reality you've cheated on her, gotten hooked on prescription medication and have now left her AND put divorce on the table. Truly, deeply in your heart, do you believe that you've put yourself in a position to receive a boatload of empathy and understanding from her? You are continuing to wound her and yet see yourself as the victim of her being withholding from you. If you want something in ANY adult relationship, the forst thing you have to be able to do is offer the equivalent. Instead of empathy for the shame and stress you continue to put he through, you are still criticizing. Her actions don't hold more power than yours! She isn't "making" you feel any worse because she's doing something "worse." You've outright walked away and abandoned her and now you resent her in a sense for "having to do it" because you can't cope. I'll respond to the rest of the post later, but I hope you reread it and notice where you portray yourself as the victim of her. And really think about that and how it's working in your life and hers. I saw the same pattern with my father for 20+ years. It's also an abusive pattern, and probably one your OW empathized with. My father would get "hurt" by my mother by some small action (intended or unintended) and he would use it as an excuse to victimize those around him. Because he couldn't cope with being hurt, whether by commission or omission). In truth whatever hurts my father was suffering, he certainly didn't express it at all appropriately, and he responded in ways that were completely out of balance. So do you. The proof: the affair and addiction to prescription meds. And now the separation and resent that your wife might find someone else. Her response is proportional, actually it's an "under-reaction" which is common for spouses of addicts. She's trying to extend an olive branch and clearly illustrate the possible outcomes without abandoning hope for you and her. And you don't get that. In fact, you may even view it as manipulation. Your criticisms, reactions and lack of coping are out of balance. Yes, you are hurting probably very much. But yiu can't see past yourself. So you can't see what damage you're doing. I have some ideas but again I actually have to go for now. Best of luck and thanks for responding back. Sorry, have not posted in a while. I realized after I posted a couple times that I am putting my self out there for the "world" to see and comment on. Candidly, I was not sure if that was the right thing to do in hindsight. After reading the responses, my world fell apart, I wanted to scream "doesn't anyone understand me". That does not apply to all the responses, but some of them...but whatever. I'm powerless over peoples responses, and I did CHOOSE to put myself out there. so I will own any discomfort I caused myself. I guess to get to the point...how are things going.... I'm still clean, still going to meetings, participating in meetings and my God appeared in my life like a week ago. My loving and caring God that is. So that has brought a new peace into my life. My wife has taken the road of NC since I put divorce on the table a couple weeks ago. I am actually test driving Empathy and what that is all about...so I can try to understand her situation. She reached out to me a couple days ago to talk...the discussion was mainly to let me know that if I am talking about divorce, she is going to distance herself from me. I'm going to offer some other information here...and this is very personal stuff. after my face to face with my wife, I sat in my car and brain dumped as much of the convo as I could into notes on my phone. I wanted to have the content available to reflect back on, not use as ammo, but to help me remember what was said and maybe it will be helpful in the process. Just to preface this...this is just me typing out the recollection of the convo, so it's a bit scattered. Also, I did not really respond to her...when it was my turn to talk, i simply told her where I was at in my recovery. So this is my notes....it's a few paragraphs... 11-21 She asked to talk. She expressed not feeling released from marriage. Not wanting to have the treatment she has had in the past. Will only accept someone that makes her feel happy, secure and loved. Will distance herself from me if I'm talking divorce. She does not want any part of divorce. Mentioned feeling vulnerable to Mr right coming along. Would not allow me back in the house even if I begged. Mostly wanted to let me know that her distance is just due to me talking divorce. She also had to let me know that she went out with friends, is wondering how this now feels to have an opportunity to look at what is out there. She told me she is down to 140 pounds feels amazing. Going to gym. Expressed the similar feelings as I have regarding what do we do with 25 Years of history. No one knows her like I do and that is part of not feeling released from me. She is asking God for release from me and to change her heart I guess to be over me. At the beginning of the conversation she said something that annoyed the s**t out of me. I can't remember exactly what it was. I want to say it was something along the lines of "she wants someone that is going to love her and take her just as she is" I expressed my annoyance by tossing something from my hand onto the desk, she asked if I was annoyed, I said no, she said she didn't care if I was. She also said she is more confident and knows who she is more than ever. I was waiting to hear more along the lines of "I'm sorry for not being there like i should have been," or tell me that she will take some responsibility for what has happened in our marriage. She did tell me that it may take her a lifetime to forgive me. She said the forgive part right at the beginning. My heart sank. I don't know what this was about exactly. I guess letting me know where she is at regarding distancing. I also felt like she continued to say the same things as before. Things like accept her as she is, not tolerating the suffering she went through. I guess the suffering I caused. I'm still hung up on her taking responsibility for something. I can't help but want to put it out there and say own some s**t. I didn't say a word about the weight and gym thing. What I wanted to say is I'm glad I could help u get there and f**k u for waiting till now to do it. She also said how she dreams and gets excited to find that person that will give the love and happiness that she so desperately has begged for. That really bugs the f***ing s**t out of me. END OF NOTES So go ahead and have a field day with that one. Oh yea...as far as my contact with the OW...I have put that on ice...I dont need or want a distraction in my life until I get this marriage thing settled. Really at this point for me...I want to talk about the crap that was broken PRE AFFAIR. A week before this separation, we had just started to talk about what was wrong in our marriage and that is what blew things up...and it always blown things up. She has a real issue with owning anything or apologizing for anything...always has. so for the readers that are going to tell me to go screw for having the affair and that I should just grovel in the dirt some more and cater to her and blah blah blah...been there done that and over it. Put yourself in my shoes...should you care to ask...i spent 25 years with her...25 years of putting my head down and going to work day after day, building a million dollar business and all she wants to do is take the checks to the bank, sit on the couch and watch tv, eat chips and ice cream and talk about how tired she is all the time. She has zero hobbies, and has lived a Co-Dependent life around me. I have always, always, ALWAYS made myself available for her, my kids and creating a home life. I may be busy with work, but I never let that take away from my family...so dont get the impression I'm a work feign and I neglected her. I can tell you one thing FOR SURE. If my convo with her had one tiny sentence of her saying something like "I know I could have done some things different years ago", it would have CHANGED MY WORLD to actually want to give her some love. I hope her Mr Right comes along and offers her all she dreams of....whatever. Saaben900 2
knitwit Posted November 26, 2013 Posted November 26, 2013 First, congrats on your clean time! Let me throw out some NA words of wisdom, you've probably heard them already but you, it can't hurt: 1. It's not your job to take anyone else's inventory- your job is to work on your own and ask your higher power for help to make improvements. 2. No major relationship changes for at least one year, and DEFINITELY no starting up any new ones in this time period! 3. When it comes to addiction and recovery, the bill is in the mail. You are going to be "billed" for a long time, you will be dealing with the destruction and fall out for longer than you might expect. But you will get through it all if you take it day by day. (I actually only heard this a few times but it really stuck with me, I think this is behind many, many relapses.) My ex was an addict. He started off with prescription drugs and went further into street drugs/opiates. I went to hundreds of NA meetings with him over years, and Naranon meetings on my own. He struggled for eight years, going in and out of recovery, staying clean for nearly 2 years in some cases but never being able to maintain it. 9 months is a FABULOUS achievement, but it is not an indication by any means that you've beat your disease. He finally lost his battle, sadly. I truly believed he was going to be one of the ones who beat it. Having been in your wife's shoes as someone who loved and built a life with a man who later fell into addiction- it hurts. More than you can know, certainly at 9 months out. You've actually given her a double-whammy, with addiction and an affair. Whatever your wife's issues were, they weren't addiction or an affair, right? Any other abuse? If not, you are comparing death by a thousand cuts with a nuclear holocaust- two of them. You have two big strikes against you, you are a high risk for relapse for two incredibly damaging acts- infidelity AND addiction. At this point in time, you are not a safe bet in any way to provide a stable life for your wife and children. You can't say you are at only 9 months clean. You say you were always available for her and your family, and maybe you were prior to you addiction. But then you blew it all up. Only an addict can say with a straight face, "yeah but look at my prior 25 years! She was such a b!" Everyone else will quite rightly look at the damage and clean-up. When you talk about all you did for your wife, you are looking at the previous 25 years. Your wife is talking to you about how she wants to get away from the person who caused the damage, the mad bomber in her and her children's lives. Whatever came before in your time with your wife, your actions and addiction have entirely, dramatically changed things. You may feel confident that you are going to be OK, but any non-addict (and I think pretty much most addicts with significant clean time) are going to realize that you are not a safe bet, you shouldn't be depended on at this point in time. I understand your wife praying to be released from you. I have made that prayer many, many times. It happens when the pain you cause her is greater than the pain of being separated from you. She doesn't want it anymore. Her NC has probably brought her a lot of peace. I know it brought me a lot of peace. It gave me the strength I needed to let him go. I loved him to the ends of the world; at the same time, I have a much richer life now, a life I couldn't imagine back then. Your wife is probably getting the first glimpses of a new world as she has experiences quiet, peace, stability, feeling better about herself, etc. She is not about to beg you back, and if you are going to pursue divorce then she is going to pursue her own life. Believe me, there is a MUCH better quality of life when there is not an active addict screwing things up, and an addict in recovery is only one decision away from becoming an active one. Relapse is always a risk. Your wife's actions make perfect sense to me. I am saying this as an attempt to help you with your Empathy ride. I am not focused on her wrong-doings at all. I am sure she had had many of them, as most humans do and they can rack up over 25 years. However, the critical issues right now belong to you. She didn't drive you to addiction or into the arms of someone else. Both addiction and affairs occur due to bad boundaries and very poor coping skills. Both of these are all about you, not your wife. I am not at all surprised that you can't get your affair partner out of your mind. She is probably the one person who gives you positive feedback, one person who isn't down on you. Unlike your wife, you haven't lobbed a hand grenade at your affair partner. You probably got good feelings from your AP and you get really negative stuff from your wife. The thing is, and it seems like you might realize this already, you earned your wife's distrust and her anger. You can divorce and hook up with your AP and try to get away from your wife. Maybe ultimately it will be your path. But do your work first. Do your step work. Get to making amends to your wife first. Own and deal with the mess you've made with your addiction and affair, and once it's cleaned up you will be free to move on. Otherwise you are just carrying your mess with you as you go. You will enter a new phase of recovery when you get humble and instead of your anger at your wife, you will feel gratitude for the things she did right. You will get past your resentments at her (resentment is poison) and you stop taking her inventory, picking out her flaws. You will focus on your own. You'll find your empathy as well. You are not in the Earliest of days, but you are in Early days. If you stay clean, things will get better. Those bills will slowly get paid off if you do the work. Getting past the first year is hard because of exactly what you are seeing now- things tend to come to boil after some time being sober. You aren't high anymore and so you aren't escaping the realities. You are trying out new coping skills in really stressful and difficult situations. You can't be considered safe now for your family, but you can be in the future if you keep going. People who have a lot of recovery time in are among the best people I know. Good luck! 4
littlejaz Posted November 26, 2013 Posted November 26, 2013 knitwit, I think you have a lot of valid points, but one thing you left out is when might it be time for his wife to take responsibility for her actions? He can continue working on his problems forever but it takes two to save a marriage.
trippi1432 Posted November 27, 2013 Posted November 27, 2013 knitwit, I think you have a lot of valid points, but one thing you left out is when might it be time for his wife to take responsibility for her actions? He can continue working on his problems forever but it takes two to save a marriage. Personally, I think I will keep coming to this thread because it hits really close to home on the way my exH acted during the final months before he left. Never admitted the affair, but his already poor behavior from his addiction to drinking and pot had already taken a toll on our marriage. Who is to say that she is not owning her responsibility? She is losing weight since obviously she must be vain to be loved, she is realizing her self-worth, she's excited about her future, for realizing that it's okay for once to put herself first. But yes, there is confusion when the other party finally acts in the way you have wanted them to. I know that first hand, when my exH finally wanted to step up and be a better man to another woman but could never do that for his family, you wonder why they couldn't do that for you....truly, you did only have their best interests at heart. Well, my best guess is that sometimes oil and vinegar don't mix, and two people who bring out the worst in each other need to amicably part ways and stop trying to put it on the other person....it's really much easier. What will keep you and your wife in the mix of limbo, is to continue to want her to relieve you of your guilt of having an affair. Will it change anything? Will it make you love her again, will it make you treat her better, will it appease you?Of course not, the affair is yours to own. Her interests, her hobbies, her wants and needs that never correlated to what you feel you deserve in a partner will never be respected. So stop making her your addiction. Addicts typically have a love/hate relationship with their addictions. If you want to learn how to be a better person, then be happy for her and support her for the pain you've caused your marriage. She didn't live up to your expectations, she never really had to, she only had to live up to her own.
beach Posted November 27, 2013 Posted November 27, 2013 Step 9 is YOUR amends. Amends = to change YOUR part in it - to set things RIGHT! By apologizing - owning YOUR bad behavior and being willing to set things right for the person you harmed. I didn't see anything in your encounter where you apologized for how YOU participated - and YOUR willingness to change it. You've got work to do - whether you stay with her or not! It doesn't matter what she says - it matters what YOU say and DO - and they must be in alignment! You'll grow if you stop thinking so much of yourself (ego) and start thinking of others. Keep moving forward! 2
knitwit Posted November 27, 2013 Posted November 27, 2013 (edited) knitwit, I think you have a lot of valid points, but one thing you left out is when might it be time for his wife to take responsibility for her actions? He can continue working on his problems forever but it takes two to save a marriage. Well, this turned out to be a very long post. I guess this thread has made me think back. Littlejaz, my answer to your question, based on my experience so other's mileage may vary, is at the end. If you don't feel like reading a book on my thoughts of recovery, please feel free to jump down. ------------------------------------------------------------------- My long answer starts here: From a Naranon perspective, it looks like she IS doing her work. She is detaching, with love. She is working on building her own life. Hopefully she is establishing safeguards to protect her and her children from the effects of any potential future relapses. She has gone mostly NC, but reached out to give an update and to tell him where she stands. She is laying out her terms of marital recovery: re-commit to the marriage, and treat her better (which I interpret to mean no more infidelity, no more active addiction, and all the terrible behaviors that go with both of them.) However, she is not just sitting around waiting for him. She is improving herself, which will either benefit the marriage if they stay together, or will benefit her and any potential or future partner. His job now is to strengthen himself in his recovery. He needs to be able to build an ability to cope with life, even when it doesn't turn out the way he wants it to. He needs to break free and conquer the childish, self-centeredness that is at the heart of addiction. He needs to overcome this (bold added for emphasis later on): Really at this point for me...I want to talk about the crap that was broken PRE AFFAIR. A week before this separation, we had just started to talk about what was wrong in our marriage and that is what blew things up...and it always blown things up. She has a real issue with owning anything or apologizing for anything...always has. [/Quote] In here, "what was wrong PRE AFFAIR" (not sure of the timing of the active addiction- before, during, after?) seems to me to mean "the crap that SHE did, for which she won't apologize, you know, she has a real issue with apologies." This is blame-shifting. It is all over his post. I was waiting to hear more along the lines of "I'm sorry for not being there like i should have been," or tell me that she will take some responsibility for what has happened in our marriage. She did tell me that it may take her a lifetime to forgive me. She said the forgive part right at the beginning. My heart sank. [/Quote] This stuff is incredibly hard to hear from one's spouse. The OP's wife is putting things in their order. She is telling him that his wrongs are so bad that it will take her a life-time to forgive him. The OP wants to hear some kind of apology about the marital nail scratches she gave him throughout their marriage, and she is talking about the gun-shot wounds to the gut and heart he gave her. She's looking at the big stuff. It's going to be a hard conversation for the OP. I don't know what this was about exactly. I guess letting me know where she is at regarding distancing. I also felt like she continued to say the same things as before. Things like accept her as she is, not tolerating the suffering she went through. I guess the suffering I caused. [/Quote] Again, the wife is saying that she will not go through the suffering inflicted by the OP. It's not clear (and I am not sure if the OP knows) but I suspect again, the wife does not want to go through the alienation, loneliness, being lied to, be cheated on, being betrayed, the mood swings and instability that are hallmark characteristics of both active addicts and of actively wayward spouses. I'm still hung up on her taking responsibility for something. I can't help but want to put it out there and say own some s**t. I didn't say a word about the weight and gym thing. What I wanted to say is I'm glad I could help u get there and f**k u for waiting till now to do it. [/Quote] and Put yourself in my shoes...should you care to ask...i spent 25 years with her...25 years of putting my head down and going to work day after day, building a million dollar business and all she wants to do is take the checks to the bank, sit on the couch and watch tv, eat chips and ice cream and talk about how tired she is all the time. She has zero hobbies, and has lived a Co-Dependent life around me. I have always, always, ALWAYS made myself available for her, my kids and creating a home life. I may be busy with work, but I never let that take away from my family...so dont get the impression I'm a work feign and I neglected her. [/Quote] The OP may have spent a lot of time building his family. But, he DID neglect them. He DID take away from them. He gave his money, his time, his attention, his affection elsewhere- and this likely just with the adultery! It is NOT FUN to be around an active addict. They can be there in the room with you, but not there at all. The are moody, unstable and unpredictable. They can have inappropriate reactions which leads one to wonder if the person has lost it mentally. These are signs of fairly early addiction- for those further in, it can be very dangerous to be around them, even if they themselves are not dangerous. Dealing with an active addict is very hard for adults to handle, and it very damaging to children. Kids of addict lose their innocence very early at best, and often have a whole set of distinct issues when they get older, hence the term Adult Child of an Alcoholic (or addict.) His addiction did, and still might, take much more away from him and his family. His addiction could end up robbing his children of their father, if he can't get a handle on recovery. I can tell you one thing FOR SURE. If my convo with her had one tiny sentence of her saying something like "I know I could have done some things different years ago", it would have CHANGED MY WORLD to actually want to give her some love. I hope her Mr Right comes along and offers her all she dreams of....whatever. [/Quote] Once again, this showcases a wish on the OP's part to get the focus off of him. If only his wife had been better! If only she would say a few right words! As if anything his wife did or did not do caused him to turn to drugs, which in turn led to his addiction. As if she is responsible for creating a stress-free world for him, where he can cope and not have to make choices like finding another woman to give him positive feelings. Right now he can't handle a full-on look at what his actions have caused, and therefore he wants to insist that his wife own her part in the problem. Except that she doesn't have a part in the BIG problems- the addiction and the infidelity that wrecked havoc his family and children. These were HIS choices. HIS actions. These are HIS problems to resolve. I bolded some sentences above that show the angry, resentful, "I've been wronged!" thoughts, which are known as "Stinking Thinking", leading to "Poor me, poor me, pour me another drink." You hear it in the new people struggling with recovery, and in people who are in danger of imminent relapse. Stinking thinking leads one right back into active addiction. Learning how to give up Stinking Thinking is one of the primary tools of recovery. It takes time, patience, guidance, and willingness to work past "How I've been Wronged!" be able to tolerate the negative feelings associated with "What I did Wrong." This is a critical step- there is no recovery if this skill can't be mastered. The OP is not there yet, but it doesn't mean he won't get there. (Of course, it doesn't mean he will get there, either. Hopefully, he will.) Just keep going. Feeling anger, resentment, self-pity, and many other feelings are just part of the process, feelings that were kept down, shifted away, replaced by vices like drugs and women. The feelings can be overwhelming when the prior coping skills are removed. When he is further into his recovery, his thoughts will not be "I did so much for her, she did not appreciate it, I gave her everything, now she wants to go find someone else to make her dreams come true? Yeah, eff that!" Once all that gunk emotion is processed and cleared, a person in recovery looks at what remains. A broken family. A betrayed wife. Harmed by his actions, and his actions alone. Instead his reaction to such an honest conversation will result in something more along the lines of, "I am sorry I have caused this. I appreciate your honesty. I know that my actions have caused you to suffer horribly, and have put you in a terrible position, and I am so sorry. I am in recovery now and am working on being a better man for myself, our kids, and you, either as the mother of my children, and hopefully also as my wife. I don't want to lose you. I am glad to hear that you are feeling better, that you are more confident, that you feel better about yourself. I hope that we can both bring our improvements into the marriage to make a stronger, happier, more balanced marriage than before." He will end up repeating this and/or similar conversations to many people, as he works to make amends. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- So, back to the original question. When it is OK to focus on the wife's shortcomings? To ask her to take responsibility? The short answer is, not right now, and not for a while to come. Why? It only harms the OP's recovery to focus on the things that are wrong with this wife. It will benefit his recovery for him to focus on his actions, in response to hers. At this point, when his wife treats him badly, he will be best served by taking those opportunities to make conscious decisions on how he wants to handle it. What bests serves his recovery? What's best for him? It's time for him to develop healthy boundaries and coping skills. In other words, if she is yelling, cursing, being disrespectful, etc, he has choices: Harmful to self: thinking or saying something like 'MAN she is being a b!tch!"Harmful to self: just sucking it up and keeping it in, building resentment.Productive to recovery: "I won't tolerate [this behavior]. I need you to either tone it down, or I need to leave and we can pick up this discussion in a healthier manner later on."Productive to self, and his marriage, if it is addiction/adultery-related, and if he can honestly handle it at this point, "I am sorry. I know my actions have caused you this pain. What can I do to make it better? I can't help you if you're yelling, but I want to help you, I want to make this better." Etc. In the rooms they call this "Make the Next Right Decision", don't worry about anything more, don't worry about 2-3 steps in the future, just figure out what the Right Thing to Do is, right now. It really will depend on where he is and where his wife is in their recoveries. If his wife has bad behaviors, and she doesn't change them, then he can make his decision whether to stay or leave. But he will be best served, and will experience the most growth and recovery, if he hangs in there, own his stuff, learns to deal and cope with things in a healthy manner, and makes his decision from a saner, more stable, place. OP, I wish you further recovery and all the good stuff that comes with it- and it is good, it is the best of life! You have probably heard in the rooms, "If you want what we have", and I hope you do want it, and that you get it, and can keep it. Edited November 27, 2013 by knitwit attempting to write in English 4
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