not everyone who smiles at you is your friend

[hayleym]

Hayleym: "I'd be upset I'd hurt them.....I could fake remorse and guilt....."

 

What I read here is that you would be truly "upset" about hurting others, but then you tell us the opposite, that you're faking being "upset", you're negating/taking back what you truly feel. This behaviour is typical of a person who is in denial. Your inner self wants to face the truth ie:you feel "upset", but your protective instincts need to stamp out your feeling as it's a threat for you to feel, it's dangerous to feel, it's too painful to face the truth about yourself.

 

Ya when I'm in those moments it feels real. The hurt and pain I feel seems real based on what I've seen from people around me. I know how it's supposed to feel. My body and mind go through those motions. But when I stop, try to breathe and really really think about it, most often the real emotion I'm feeling is fear and anger and the outward appearance may look like hurt and sadness, but I think that's just self taught? Make sense?

 

I get that it doesn't make sense to many people. Of course, I've only had One person ever say, I know what you mean! And that's my other man! My friends husband.

 

My body and mind feel what I think I'm SUPPOSED to be feeling. But I can turn it off once I realize its happening. Like a light switch. Especially when I am alone.

[hayleym]

So I'm probably a sociopath right?

Because I know all this, and it doesn't really make me sad or anything. I only feel sad or guilt when I'm telling myself a normal person would be feeling that.

 

I'm not even offended by the suggestion I am. Ive thought for years I might be. But was it just taught or I was born like that, I have no idea.

[Grumpybutfun]

So I'm probably a sociopath right?

Because I know all this, and it doesn't really make me sad or anything. I only feel sad or guilt when I'm telling myself a normal person would be feeling that.

 

I'm not even offended by the suggestion I am. Ive thought for years I might be. But was it just taught or I was born like that, I have no idea.

 

No Hayley, you are dissociating. Not disassociating, but dissociating.

Best,

Grumps

[hayleym]

Can I ask why you are so opposed to IC?

 

I talked to a lady about once a month actually last year. but honestly I went more out of curiosity or entertainment. I love hearing people explain the psychology of all this to me. It interests me. Didn't ever make me want to stop what I was doing.

 

To everyone else that sounds horrible I guess.

 

I went there thinking she would say something I hadn't heard before and something would click inside me. But instead I felt like I would never be able to have respect for her. She just thought I could tell myself what I was doing was wrong and just, stop.

 

She also suggested I press charges on people from my past which was laughable. I will never ever be doing that.

 

I would go if I thought it would help. But it didn't at all.

[hayleym]

No Hayley, you are dissociating. Not disassociating, but dissociating.

Best,

Grumps

 

What does that mean? It's fixable? But what if I don't consider myself broken just different?

 

I sometimes wish though that I could feel like other people for a couple days so I could decide what's better. That sounds sick I know.

[hayleym]

It's very very hard for me to have actual respect for people.

 

I have respect for this other man like I've never really had for anyone. And he trusts no one, just like me, and he like to use me and likes me using him, same as me.

 

I want to know what that means.

 

I'm respectful and accepting of everyone, that's who people know me as, but in reality, I think most people are weak. They have no idea! I would never say that out loud. But that's me.

[Sub]

Seriously, just get divorced and worry about yourself, then. If talking to a professional about it was for "entertainment" purposes, and you don't respect someone like that, I can't imagine why you spend time telling your story here.

[Owl]

What does that mean? It's fixable? But what if I don't consider myself broken just different?

 

I sometimes wish though that I could feel like other people for a couple days so I could decide what's better. That sounds sick I know.

 

Do you want to change? Do you want to care for people in the same way that others do? Do you want to learn to be honest, trustworthy, deserving of the love and respect you've been shown by your friends and husband?

 

Or do you want things to stay the same?

 

That's the real question. Broken, different....all irrelevent terms.

 

Do you want to change, or do you want to remain the person that you are now?

 

That's all that matters.

[hayleym]

Seriously, just get divorced and worry about yourself, then. If talking to a professional about it was for "entertainment" purposes, and you don't respect someone like that, I can't imagine why you spend time telling your story here.

 

I won't be initiating divorce. My husband is very happy.

 

I did not mean I didn't respect professionals. This woman specifically, and people who talk like her I guess

I do not mean it in a mean way.

Just saying exactly how I feel the best way I can.

[hayleym]

When I say I think most people are weak.

 

That's not meant maliciously either. People strive to be trusting and open. I do not. Those are not qualities I am working towards. I would feel exposed and very uncomfortable.

 

I want to be accepted for exactly what and who I am but that would never happen because I will never fully be open with someone.

 

But when I'm with him I feel it the most. And I'm in control.

 

I'm trying to keep my mind occupied because my mind never ever stops. I'm filling it with memories that make me feel good and I don't feel bad about it because nobody knows, nobody's getting hurt.

 

I might feel differently someday.

 

I don't want to hurt anyone else. I genuinely care a lot about my friend and my husband. The connection I feel to her husband is much more intense, but I don't have a way to explain that.

[HtotheN]

Hayleym,

 

The thing is that EVEN IF you are never found out, you are hurting both of them, every time. I get that you think that what's done in secret doesn't count, but that counts the most.

[Owl]

When I say I think most people are weak.

 

That's not meant maliciously either. People strive to be trusting and open. I do not. Those are not qualities I am working towards. I would feel exposed and very uncomfortable.

 

I want to be accepted for exactly what and who I am but that would never happen because I will never fully be open with someone.

 

But when I'm with him I feel it the most. And I'm in control.

 

I'm trying to keep my mind occupied because my mind never ever stops. I'm filling it with memories that make me feel good and I don't feel bad about it because nobody knows, nobody's getting hurt.

 

I might feel differently someday.

 

I don't want to hurt anyone else. I genuinely care a lot about my friend and my husband. The connection I feel to her husband is much more intense, but I don't have a way to explain that.

 

OK...so you don't want to change yourself, nor the situation.

 

I've got nothing for you then. Good luck.

[ComingInHot]

"When I say I think most people are weak.

 

That's not meant maliciously either. People strive to be trusting and open. I do not."

 

This explains of course Why you immediately "drop" people who don't buy what your selling in the manipulation of how you want them to perceive you. These would be the Strong, Smart people that "have a clue" that you MUST, within the world you have created, avoid at ALL costs.

You KNOW they would figure you out and blow up your whole world. It's pretty uncomplicated, that aspect of it anyway, and it makes total sense.

 

I know you still don't want to hear it but I am still so sorry for you, that in those moments of quiet, you Do find yourself grieving, alone and afraid. The make believe world that you have created gives you a Safe place where you can pretend people care because of who you are instead of who you make them think you are. Maybe it allows you to not care as much as well because, of course, You don't care because you really can't care because if you allowed yourself to Truly care and feel that emotion, it might open yourself up to feeling other things that could tear you to shreds.

 

I'll just keep caring for you until you are ready*

[ComingInHot]

HtotheN wrote, "Hayleym,

 

The thing is that EVEN IF you are never found out, you are hurting both of them, every time. I get that you think that what's done in secret doesn't count, but that counts the most."

 

HtotheN, I actually think she DOES Know that she IS hurting them. She just really, Honestly does Not Care enough to change, even though she Knows she is Wrong. I think the only emotion/s she feels is on a Very shallow level because she has locked away her humanity to protect herself from rejection, abandonment, loneliness and being hurt yet again.

I Really believe that right now she is INcapable of feeling anything deep really besides the addictive nature of her A (maybe).

 

I would love to be wrong but then again I don't know if I want to be wrong because what would the alternative mean for a person like that?

 

oh. By the way HtotheN, I TOTALLY agree with your post!! the part that she is hurting these people*

[hayleym]

HtotheN wrote, "Hayleym,

 

The thing is that EVEN IF you are never found out, you are hurting both of them, every time. I get that you think that what's done in secret doesn't count, but that counts the most."

 

HtotheN, I actually think she DOES Know that she IS hurting them. She just really, Honestly does Not Care enough to change, even though she Knows she is Wrong. I think the only emotion/s she feels is on a Very shallow level because she has locked away her humanity to protect herself from rejection, abandonment, loneliness and being hurt yet again.

I Really believe that right now she is INcapable of feeling anything deep really besides the addictive nature of her A (maybe).

 

I would love to be wrong but then again I don't know if I want to be wrong because what would the alternative mean for a person like that?

 

oh. By the way HtotheN, I TOTALLY agree with your post!! the part that she is hurting these people*

 

Yes. I don't want to hurt them. But I want what I do want more.

 

I care about the people in my life very much and would never want something bad to happen to any one of them.

 

I don't wish bad on anyone or anything. And I'll help whoever I can, I'm very helpful, that's something everyone would say.

But really I just don't care what anyone else is doing. I will live my life that way I have been, if I want something and can get it. I will. Regardless of the situation.

[ladydesigner]

Yes. I don't want to hurt them. But I want what I do want more.

 

I care about the people in my life very much and would never want something bad to happen to any one of them.

 

I don't wish bad on anyone or anything. And I'll help whoever I can, I'm very helpful, that's something everyone would say.

But really I just don't care what anyone else is doing. I will live my life that way I have been, if I want something and can get it. I will. Regardless of the situation.

 

Wow I didn't read the whole thread but it seems there are a lot of these A situations that involve the best friend's WHs. Hayleym you say you care about your best friend and her husband and wouldn't want anything bad happening to them, but it already is. The damage is already being done to their M. You say how helpful you are but the only thing I can see you helping with is bedding your best friend's WH and helping probably isn't the right word.

 

Hope the bolded works out for you, I really do. To me a life led with self-entitlement is very shallow and does not bode well for future relationships.

[Spotme]

Just for the record, even if you gave the BW a kidney, you would not have the right to call yourself her friend. Please stop calling yourself that because I don't think you understand what friendship is. Do the caring actions you claim to take toward her have anything to do with feelings of love and friendship and wanting to give to make her happy? Or is it more about building that picture of the caring friend that you presumably value?

 

Generally speaking, talking about feeling bad for people who get hurt, that's cheap and easy empathy, that requires nothing from you and has little value. True caring involves being willing to sacrifice, and you, by your own words, are not willing to sacrifice for your BH or the BW, so your lack of actions speaks louder than words.

 

Also, I don't get how a person who keeps secrets and says trust no one can then claim to be able to read other people and know what they are thinking or feeling. I guarantee you don't. My WH was shocked to hear what I was thinking and feeling about him during the affair. He had no idea that I had so grown to dislike him as a person, husband, and father (not knowing that he was in an affair, only that he'd become a real jerk) that I was considering leaving him. I never showed him or anyone else, including my best friend, my thoughts on the matter. This also ties into "what they don't know won't hurt them." My H's changed behavior during the affair absolutely hurt me and my D (she became afraid of him because he was always yelling), but he thought that he had been behaving normally.

 

It's just as easy to fool yourself as it can be to fool other people.

 

Finally, the OW in my situation also endured several forms of abuse as a child. She (per her own words) shares your "me first and only, but hey, I really do care about you too," philosophy. She also, again by her own words, was always wearing a mask for other people, except my WH, of course, but I don't buy that she showed him her true self either. Do you know what my very first thought about her when we met (before the affair) was? "That woman is not right." I could literally feel that she was putting on a show. It was a bit of a shock to see her admit in print exactly what I'd been thinking. Most people think she's a great friend, intelligent professional, and perfect hostess. Meanwhile, she told WH that she really didn't feel close to pretty much all of those people who counted her as a friend. Sound familiar?

[ComingInHot]

experiencethed.. wrote, " as you display a combination of characteristics of both sociopathy and psychopathy as well as narcissistic personality disorder."

 

How so?

[ComingInHot]

oooOOOOoooohhhhhhh. . I thought you were commenting "against" Spot me.**

 

So then, YEEEAA I agree!

CIH*

 

Hopefully, you've caught on that oft times, I am slower to catch on.

[felicity1]

 

I don't feel guilty. I don't feel bad.

 

 

No, you're trying to convince yourself that you don't feel guilty/bad. Otherwise why did you post?

Edited November 14, 2013 by felicity1

[OpheliaSong]

What is this? A public service to make sure people know there are dishonest people in the world?

[felicity1]

 

I'm not really sure. It started really really young. I had a very emotionally, physically and sexually abusive childhood and I was removed from the situation right before I turned 13 and just created myself from then on how I wanted others to see me.

 

We never discuss my past.

 

I don't with anyone.

 

 

This is explains your position. This is why you are writing here. You are subconcsiously reaching out for help.

Edited November 16, 2013 by a LoveShack.org Moderator

[ComingInHot]

This is an interesting (in a sad way*) thread.

I mean, I can see, conclusively, why people would say OP is a Sociopath, Narssistic, and a plethora of other disorders. Her behaviors definitely exhibit these things. I also Don't see a bunch of Others in an A stitch supporting her in the manner I've grown accustomed to reading here. Then I think, Maybe, the OP (Hayley ) is exhibiting these traits not because she may truly Be them, but because her defense against all that has happened to her, has been to "tuck away" her humanity. I say "tuck away" because of the glimpses I've seen in some of her responses. Not about the "not wanting to hurt them" comments or "I care for them comments" but the fear, lonlieness, pain briefly written in regards to Her Own Self.

I don't know what happens to someone if I am correct in my thoughts. Do they lose their humanity forever and become all these dangerous & harmful disorders? Do they "crack" at some point and flood w/emotions they cannot handle?

I don't know.

And I could be very wrong. I'm no doctor

[felicity1]

In you, there is an inner desire to heal and face the pain of your childhood. But simultaneously, your protective defences(the truth is too painful to face) squash down this desire, hence your seeming insensitivities. This is the state of denial.

Edited November 14, 2013 by felicity1

[janedoe67]

This thread is interesting to me because even though I DO feel remorse, empathy, pain over the things I have done and DON'T ever want to do them again....I can kind of see haleym's point, especially about psychobabble. Part of me always kind of starts smirking and chuckling when the really big and really flowery psychological complexity stuff starts appearing. I think most of us are so terrified of the implications that there are people like haley is claiming to be exist that we have written mountains of books to come up with reasons they can't possibly "really" be that way.

 

Appealing to a person without authentic guilt or empathy guilt emotions through the use of drama, emotion, and guilt in a post is not going to move them. And I would postulate that using a lot of really big words that we learned in freshman psychology isn't going to impress them either.

 

This is another example of trying to manipulate the reality that is into the reality we want it to be so that we can feel more comfortable.

 

In other words, I read haley's posts as very matter of fact and that she is somewhat fascinated with how she knows she "should" feel, but none of the emotional pleas or dramatic denigrations are really going to "DO" anything.