I trigger hard with stories about forgiveness

[ChooseTruth]

This is my original thread (I was Ninja's Husband), don't try to read the whole thing...it's impossible .

http://www.loveshack.org/forums/romantic/marriage-life-partnerships/infidelity/314134-boundary-setting-question

 

Basics: wife has affair, gets pregnant, miscarries, trickle truths very badly, won't go completely NC because she would have to give up a niche sport she was involved in, I divorce over the NC issue. We have a daughter, 9yrs old back on Dday, 11yrs old right now.

 

So tonight I just got back from a movie. It's silly because I've read the book and knew what was coming...but the ending is a lesson about forgiveness and I completely lost it in a blubbering pathetic way at the ending. I guess I carry around a lot of guilt for divorcing my wife. As if maybe we could have pulled through if I had been more patient. Now it's so blown apart and there's no turning back. I have fifteen reasons why I can never go back scrawled on a piece of paper next to my bed. God I sound so pathetic...I usually don't even remember that list is there. I just never moved it after the night I wrote the first 12 or so reasons. I added 3 more the other night. Reading it now calms me some...but I guess my main problem is what to do when I'm watching a movie, reading a book, etc and there's a story where someone has done something wrong, they are forgiven, and that forgiveness inspires great things, or lack of forgiveness causes tragedy, or both. I always tell myself there's a difference between forgiveness and enabling. That helps. Maybe I shouldn't even post this, I know what I need to focus on. I know everyone will say I did the right thing. I just want to not hurt so badly when I hear stories like this. Maybe I need to take time and find the differences between the story and myself, or maybe the story is bullspit.

 

I'm trying not to name the movie, because I don't want to ruin it for people. but here are some differences:

1)In the movie, the unforgiving party does something far worse than what I did. What I did was change my relationship with someone else, spent a bunch of money, and split my child's home apart. I won't say what happens in the movie, but it's wayyyy worse

2)The unforgiven party was repentant. They couldn't communicate it well enough. My ex might have been repentant but she wouldn't give me peace of mind. To match my scenario the movie would have to be rewritten to make it seem much more likely that the unforgiven one would do what they did again in a way that creates so much fear it's disruptive of life on an ongoing basis.

 

 

Ok that helps me for now. I feel much better. I just hate it when I trigger so hard when watching movies. I was alone this time so I could be crazy driving home without making a scene. Usually if there's something that bothers me it's more like a quick pain...and my daughter is sitting next to me in while watching some film. I dunno why I reacted so badly this time. Maybe it's because I was alone and my thoughts could runaway to bad places without being interrupted by whoever I was with.

 

Any other thoughts? Just writing all this out already helped me a lot, but I'll go ahead and submit

[dichotomy]

The obvious - your wife was not really fully repentant, would not go NC, would not do what was needed, you did right, and you may have stayed if....but you did what you had to do.

 

 

Now to the guilt thing -

 

1) How is your 11 year old about all this ? The divorce - her life afterwards.

2) How is your ex wife about all this - her life, feelings, etc. does she blame you or make you feel bad? has she moved on

3) How is your life - you moving on? dating? or looking back and missing something?

 

 

 

 

P.S. your story always makes me trigger a bit - my wife's OM was a senior member in a dojo in the Northeast.... Ugh....

[janedoe67]

Maybe this will help:

 

What I did was change my relationship with someone else - one could argue that SHE was the one who changed the relationship when she involved a third party

 

spent a bunch of money - divorce costs money, life changes cost money, heck, LIVING costs money

 

and split my child's home apart - again, SHE started that ball rolling when she cheated

 

Forgiveness and reconciliation are not the same thing. I forgive the person who hurt me in my youth. I will never be their friend or have them over for dinner.

[96nole]

You didn't break up the home....Your ex did

You tried to save the marriage...Your ex did not

You just wanted the truth....Your ex continued to lie.

 

This is all on her. Every damn bit of it. You tried everything you could to save it. The ex wife did everything she could to keep her legs spread open for him. Years from now, if your daughter asks what happened, you can honestly say you tried everything to save the marriage. Your ex cannot honestly say the same.

 

And also remember, most book and movie ending are bullsh*t.

[road]

Everything that happened is not even about the affair.

 

It is about your WW not going NC with the OM.

 

As soon as you started writing your list and you had written item that WW will not go NC with the OM as your No. 1 item there would of been no reason to write a No. 2 through No. 12 items on your list.

 

What was this sport WW would not give?

[Oberfeldwebel]

Part of this is perception, but it doesn't have to be a negative. Firstly as others have already stated this is about your wives refusal to go nc and transparency. You can forgive her for what she has done, but that doesn't automatically mean that you have to reconcile. Forgiveness means that you hold no animosity for the sin she has committed. If she had been truly contrite for the things that she had done, then she would have gladly have been an open book and allowed you to heal. Basically you found out that the dojo was more important to her than your marriage. You gave her a path to save the marriage, she chose another path.

 

These things that causes triggers, makes you second guess yourself should instead be used as analogies why the marriage failed. They can be used to help you explain your relationship to your daughter in the near future when she asks these questions. The bottom line is, if your wife had been smart she could have chosen your family, instead she is a dodo in a dojo.

Edited November 11, 2013 by Oberfeldwebel

[Spark1111]

After DDAY, we get a visceral reaction and front row seat to how truly important we are to our WS.

 

And often it is NOT pretty. Certainly as the fog clears, we begin to discern if a WS wants to reconcile as a knee-jerk reaction to having been caught, OR if they truly value us and the marriage.

 

And if they truly value us and the marriage, they should be willing to do anything within their power to reassure us of their priorities.

 

Your list was your blink: Your primal gut survival instinct of what it would take to restore love and trust.

 

She refused to give up the place where OM was.....

 

How selfish and what a clear indicator of how unimportant you and the marriage were to her.

 

Why talk yourself out of a mentally healthy choice? Yes, we do that all the time. Don't do it now.

 

great things can happen IF there is Forgiveness, ATONEMENT, remorse and redemption.

 

Everything else is lip-service, smoke, mirrors and stardust, Hollywood-style.

[Steen719]

Forgiveness and reconciliation are not the same thing

This took me a very long time to come to grips with, but Jane is right here. My forgiveness of what he did to me ended up being more for me than anything, but the hardest thing in the entire process was forgiving myself for any part I paid for in the problems in the marriage. There is no mistaking that I had a part in that and I had to wait until I forgave him before I started forgiving myself. I have absolutely no idea if that is a "normal" route or not. I "forgive" him to me means I don't feel like a victim anymore.

 

You didn't break up the home....Your ex did

You tried to save the marriage...Your ex did not

You just wanted the truth....Your ex continued to lie.

 

This is all on her. Every damn bit of it. You tried everything you could to save it. The ex wife did everything she could to keep her legs spread open for him. Years from now, if your daughter asks what happened, you can honestly say you tried everything to save the marriage. Your ex cannot honestly say the same.

 

And also remember, most book and movie ending are bullsh*t.

Worth saying again. And right, endings are not so tightly wrapped up in real life.

 

So tonight I just got back from a movie. It's silly because I've read the book and knew what was coming...but the ending is a lesson about forgiveness and I completely lost it in a blubbering pathetic way at the ending. I guess I carry around a lot of guilt for divorcing my wife. As if maybe we could have pulled through if I had been more patient. Now it's so blown apart and there's no turning back. I have fifteen reasons why I can never go back scrawled on a piece of paper next to my bed. God I sound so pathetic...I usually don't even remember that list is there. I just never moved it after the night I wrote the first 12 or so reasons. I added 3 more the other night. Reading it now calms me some...but I guess my main problem is what to do when I'm watching a movie, reading a book, etc and there's a story where someone has done something wrong, they are forgiven, and that forgiveness inspires great things, or lack of forgiveness causes tragedy, or both. I always tell myself there's a difference between forgiveness and enabling. That helps. Maybe I shouldn't even post this, I know what I need to focus on. I know everyone will say I did the right thing. I just want to not hurt so badly when I hear stories like this. Maybe I need to take time and find the differences between the story and myself, or maybe the story is bullspit.

The two things that I understand from this are the idea that forgiveness is more than just that and that you did something to make your family fall apart. NH, I really believe that forgiveness does something good, but for you. It sets you on a path of an easier mind and opens doors for more possibilities for you. Also, I, too struggled with leaving my ungrateful basta*d because I was changing my son's life forever - and he was 20! I obsessed about it, worrying and feeling a pull back and forth. I went to a psychologist and talked to him about it and my real saving grace was that my son was older and he wanted me to leave for my sake. We will never all be a family again and I would be lying if I said that always sits well with me, but in the face of what happened, what other choice did I have? MUCH LIKE YOU! I can tell you how much I agree that it is difficult or next to impossible to forgive someone who is not repentant and can't give up the very thing that would help you stay. Much like your wife, my XH wouldn't give up communicating with the gf - just couldn't do it. I did what I had to do and so did you.

 

Let any "guilt" you feel be about how you acted in your marriage, not how it ended. None of us were perfect in our marriage and we need to face that. You did what you had to do and each and every person reading your thread knows that to be true.

 

(I have a friend who tells me that my Catholic upbringing was so effective that not only do I feel a healthy dose of guilt, that if you need me to, I'll feel yours for you - LOL)

 

You are a good man and some day in the future, you will find what you need to move forward in a new relationship. She has lost something she may never find again, but my bet is that you will. Forgive yourself. You cannot imagine the freedom that you will feel. Look it straight in the face and then forgive yourself. You deserve it and I believe that.

Edited November 11, 2013 by Steen719

[KathyM]

As others have said, forgiveness does not require reconciliation of the marriage. One can forgive a WS for the betrayal, and give up the anger/animosity towards that person, but that does not mean that they have to resume the marriage. The fact of the matter is that betrayal destroys trust, and destroys the bond that you once had with the WS. While some are able to forgive and rebuild trust, some realize that trust and love is going to be too difficult to restore, and so they choose to end the marriage/relationship. One can forgive, but still realize that there is no trust or love to build upon, or they realize that the road to rebuilding would be too long and painful.

[Betrayed&Stayed]

I've followed your story from the beginning. You were willing to to forgive and try to reconcile but your WW didn't step up to the plate. From what I remember you took the high ground and she did not. A cheating spouse has to put in the effort to correcting the wrongs that they committed for reconciliation to be possible.

 

You did what you had to do. In essence your wife made the decision for divorce for you by cheating, not willing to give up her dojo, and not being transparent. She chose not to do the work required.

 

I know it sucks, but you made the correct decision. You can still forgive her without reconciling.

[BetrayedH]

Typical movie plot line:

 

Person A and Person B are a slightly mismatched couple but love each other. Person A is somewhat immature, fun-loving and has poor boundaries, not ready for marriage. Person B loves Person A and hopes for them to change. Person A cheats and they break up. Person B is destroyed but dates around and eventually gets a GF/BF (but they are mismatched and Person B is just trying to make Person A jealous). It works Person A realizes what they lost and dumps the awful OM/OW. Person B dumps their awful GF/BF. Person A and Person B get back together. Both people realize their mistakes and forgive each other. Beautiful wedding; affairs are never thought of again. As for their mismatched exes, they get together as a couple and have ugly children. Ah, a happy ending: mistakes, remorse, and forgiveness.

 

Was that your story, NH? Both people made mistakes, felt remorse, and forgave? What were your mistakes? Being too nice of a guy? Too loyal? Was your wife remorseful? The fact that she would permit a scenaro to unfold where you were at the dojo with her and the OM proved to me that she was just whacked. What truly remorseful WS would put their BS thru that? You had one person making the mistakes, continuing to make them, and not being remorseful while the other did their damnest to forgive. You didn't have the Hollywood story.

 

And by the way, the Hollywood story is complete bullshi t anyway.

[Snowflower]

Typical movie plot line:

 

Person A and Person B are a slightly mismatched couple but love each other. Person A is somewhat immature, fun-loving and has poor boundaries, not ready for marriage. Person B loves Person A and hopes for them to change. Person A cheats and they break up. Person B is destroyed but dates around and eventually gets a GF/BF (but they are mismatched and Person B is just trying to make Person A jealous). It works Person A realizes what they lost and dumps the awful OM/OW. Person B dumps their awful GF/BF. Person A and Person B get back together. Both people realize their mistakes and forgive each other. Beautiful wedding; affairs are never thought of again. As for their mismatched exes, they get together as a couple and have ugly children. Ah, a happy ending: mistakes, remorse, and forgiveness.

 

 

Or, the alternative Hollywood ending: Person B immediately finds their soulmate immediately upon the divorce being final. The soulmate is wealthy, handsome (or beautiful) and is head over heels in love with Person B. Sigh...

 

Remember, the Hollywood ending isn't realistic either. Choosetruth, try not to let movies get you down. I wish all our problems with infidelity could be wrapped up neatly in 2 hours.

[ChooseTruth]

Thanks for the responses guys. Steen yours really got to me. I've preached a lot on here recently about how the BS doesn't *cause* an affair and how ridiculous that idea is. I hold to that thought. At the same time it is true that I of course am not perfect and had my own issues in the M. Another thing is that I realize that the only reason I cracked and divorced was because I had reached my limit. It wasn't some logical decision like "Oh she failed to do X and Y so I'm GONE!" no...I tried to forgive in-spite of insurmountable evidence that I should leave...and eventually snapped because I realized that the effect it was having on me was going to trickle down and hurt my daughter. That's really why I left, because of my limitations. I'm more and more at peace with what ex did everyday, especially now that the divorce is final. Now I probably need to focus more on myself and becoming at peace with what I did or didn't do. No need for anger to drive the divorce forward anymore. It's another manifestation of the good old grief cycle I guess. That damn thing repeats so many times, at so many levels... I was just warning PeaksandValleys about this point.

The obvious - your wife was not really fully repentant, would not go NC, would not do what was needed, you did right, and you may have stayed if....but you did what you had to do.

 

 

Now to the guilt thing -

 

1) How is your 11 year old about all this ? The divorce - her life afterwards.

2) How is your ex wife about all this - her life, feelings, etc. does she blame you or make you feel bad? has she moved on

3) How is your life - you moving on? dating? or looking back and missing something?

 

 

 

 

P.S. your story always makes me trigger a bit - my wife's OM was a senior member in a dojo in the Northeast.... Ugh....

1) My daughter has done pretty well. I'm proud of how we handled the divorce. She did cry a few times about a month ago and that was hard to see, but overall she's been very cheerful. I told her about a week ago that the divorce was final and she didn't express any sadness, it was almost like she was keeping her happy face just to make me feel better. The subject dropped almost instantly. I told her if she ever wanted to talk about it, I was there.

 

2)I don't talk to the ex about these things anymore. She might be involved with a guy she was taking classes with during her masters, but I haven't heard anything about him lately so maybe not. I don't feel compelled to find out and never ask. She had eventually said that the affair was because of "everything you did over the past 14 years", even though at first she said there must be something wrong with her. I think she recognizes what she did was horribly wrong, but still blame shifts it a lot. She never did state any specific reason that had to do with herself.

 

3) I'm getting better all the time, writing more music, which I had stopped doing. The divorce was just finalized at the end of October, a little past the 2 year mark after D-Day. I didn't really consider myself eligible for the dating world until that point, so it's only been 2 weeks. I had a sort of "phone date" with someone the day I signed the final papers. We talked about an hour and a half, that was nice I have a couple of dating profiles that are hidden. The problem is my mother moved up when we separated. She made it possible to keep the house that our family was in, and she makes the 50/50 parenting work while I work full time. My ex is doing substitute teaching work and is supported by alimony so she has more time...

I'm a big believer in full honesty and leaving out that my mother lives with me seems misleading. So right now in my profile I have some explanation of that and a statement that maybe I just need to wait 3 more years. That might be when Mom moves out, daughter will be 14, and I won't have alimony crippling me financially anymore. I'll know by then if my work situation will go bust or not. It's been a hard two years and I got a really bad review this last year. Also I'm trying to get into better shape. I still have confidence issues and want to focus on that for a while. I ran 10 miles yesterday . I might unhide my profiles and just keep them honest about the mother situation. If someone can handle that, great, otherwise letting them filter themselves is fine.

 

I have been talking to a lot of women, much more than I ever did when I was married. Problem is most of them either live too far away, are taken, or both. I developed quite a crush on one of them, and being able to focus on her was a great distraction...but that's going nowhere. She was never in the running because of distance, and now she's fallen into that "both" category(meaning taken and too far away).

 

I'm realizing just how inexperienced I am in dating as an adult. I started dating my ex in my freshmen year of college, when most people were single. Now everyone is married with kids, and there's no co-ed dorm with hot chicks every where I work at a big IT company with a lot of other men.

 

 

 

I figured people would start guessing at the actual plot of the movie hehe. There was zero romance in the movie I watched last night. The last movie(before last night) that made me trigger was when I rewatched the new Star Trek flick. I figure most people have seen that by now.

SPOILER:Admiral Marcus forgives Kirk and makes him his 1st officer even though he doesn't have any evidence that Kirk has changed, quite to the contrary. Or maybe Marcus never even really disagreed with Kirk and his decision to save Spock. I dunno. That's a weaker example that didn't bother me too much, but it did set my mind spinning for a bit. Doesn't have to be romantic.

 

Hmm movie I watched last night. Here's the name all scrambled:

mgea snedre

If you unscramble it and it ruins the movie, your fault

[AlwaysGrowing]

I know many preach that forgiveness is a must. I do not subscribe to that thought.

 

There are people in my childhood, that did horrific things to me. I will never forgive them. I have accepted it happened. I also came to realize that I had nothing to forgive myself for either.

 

My first husband...forgive him? I really haven't thought about it, then or now. I know he is a non-entity to me. I can talk about what happened and there is no emotion tied to it. It's an odd feeling, knowing something happened to you, but not feeling like it IS you that it happened to. Maybe because I am no longer that person, that is why it has no effect on the ME today. I did however have to forgive myself, for staying as long as I did, even though my FoO certainly played into why I had such poor coping skills/boundaries/self respect. I was, an adult (18-20). I was supposed to have my own back. And I didn't. I failed me. Part of my forgiving myself, I made myself accountable to learn how to be healthy. What did it mean..what made sense...how does one learn that. Thank you public libraries, Phil Donahue, and office magazines.

[drifter777]

My take-away from your OP is a lot different than most of the posters. I see your situation as "I am in mourning and it hurts when I am triggered - can anyone help me?" Pointing out that your actions & behaviors where justified back then and still are today is something you know, intellectually, but it doesn't make the pain of mourning over the loss of your marriage just go away. I would say that you are stuck in the grieving process and maybe need some help to get moving again. It's called a "process" meaning there are separate and distinct phases and you start at the beginning and move through them until the end. When you get to the end you are probably not going to live happily ever after like you see in a movie, but you are going to be at peace with what happened and the decisions and reactions it caused. Divorce being one of them.

 

The triggers are never going to end, but your reaction to them can change. You have heard me slam the old "time heals all wounds" because it is bullsh*t and not something anyone should use as a plan for recovery. You've done a lot of work but you aren't finished. Read about recovery from betrayal, find someone who has been through something like this and talk to them, and talk to a counselor about moving through the grieving process.

[dichotomy]

Who who is laying the guilt on you - not your ex (anymore - she has a life), your daughter seems relatively ok (if thats the right term) with the new divorced life, you got to keep the family home which provides some anchor/stability for you and your daughter. Not bad!

 

So this leaves you feeling guilty you could have saved the marriage? You can't save someone who does not want to be saved (your ex).

 

About you mom - I would tell other women your mom is helping/acting as a Nanny for your daughter, and you "let" her live with you for costs and as a single dad to help until your daughter is older. Makes sense - happens alot - you do not say "I am living with my mom"

Edited November 11, 2013 by dichotomy

[RightThere]

I'm a BH and I did offer forgiveness to my WW. I also knew that I would have done whatever I needed to in order to repair and reconcile our marriage. My WW would not do that despite everything I was willing to do for her.

 

Bottom line is although you feel like maybe you should have forgiven or are having second thoughts, if both people in the relationship aren't willing to do whatever is needed (including niche sports) then all your efforts to repair and reconcile would probably not have succeeded.

[Mr. Lucky]

Bottom line is although you feel like maybe you should have forgiven or are having second thoughts, if both people in the relationship aren't willing to do whatever is needed (including niche sports) then all your efforts to repair and reconcile would probably not have succeeded.

Agreed.

 

Also, I don't know how one person can "forgive" for two people. Look at what has to happen for a marriage to successfully reconcile:

 

- the BS has to forgive the WS for cheating

- The BS has to forgive themselves for being in a position of being cheated upon

- the WS has to forgive themselves for cheating

- the WS has to forgive the BS for their contribution to the marriage

 

Continuing your Star Trek theme, unless you can execute a Vulcan mind meld, I don't like your chances of doing this solo...

 

Mr. Lucky