Zenstudent Posted October 31, 2013 Posted October 31, 2013 Best, second best... the problem with this is that it's not as binary as it looks. Which is best, a steak or an icecream? Today I'm starving, I may decide for the steak, but tomorrow, it's hot outside and I just ate, I may prefer the icecream - it doesn't make any sense to ask which one is best. Not even from a nutrition point of view - it depends on what your body needs this moment, sugar or proteins. The first 9-12 months I also searched and asked to find out how OM was better than me - it almost made me crazy, because what she really wanted was something different and the excitement from it. It won't do me any good to think less of myself. I think it's something similar Coolits husband is thinking, only he was very quick to figure it out. It might boil down to self esteem and confidence. IMO, a more relevant question to ask is: Does your wife and your relationship deserve a second chance? 3
beatcuff Posted October 31, 2013 Posted October 31, 2013 ... I stepped out because I wasn't being a good person. I was being a dirty, selfish slut... thank you. it appears you are demonizing yourself and your AP in your R. should one define themselves ONLY by the A? because one does not cheat are they good? many married persons are/were members of hate groups (think - KKK). are they good people? if you rebuild destroyed villages of the poorest of the poor and 'cheat' are you not? M has highs and lows. the highs are easy. the lows --- well they test us all: how long, how low and can we see when it will turn up. the type of person you are: positive or negative will tip off whether those lows are going to be trouble. and if you do step out --- that should not define you. but it is part of you, only a part. i find it odd what we took for granted as a younger person (<25) we find so damming now.
dichotomy Posted October 31, 2013 Posted October 31, 2013 (edited) Best, second best... the problem with this is that it's not as binary as it looks. Which is best, a steak or an icecream? Today I'm starving, I may decide for the steak, but tomorrow, it's hot outside and I just ate, I may prefer the icecream - it doesn't make any sense to ask which one is best. Not even from a nutrition point of view - it depends on what your body needs this moment, sugar or proteins. The first 9-12 months I also searched and asked to find out how OM was better than me - it almost made me crazy, because what she really wanted was something different and the excitement from it. It won't do me any good to think less of myself. I think it's something similar Coolits husband is thinking, only he was very quick to figure it out. It might boil down to self esteem and confidence. IMO, a more relevant question to ask is: Does your wife and your relationship deserve a second chance? I do love much of this post, very insightful as are many of your posts. but for me it often comes down to - the mirror of this thread question - is your former cheating spouse now giving you their best ? or do you feel you are getting second best? See that's a tougher one to consider - when your comparing a marriage to the narrow scope of the affair. What does my spouse offer me vs him. Which one got best? How can you compare an affair to a marriage? Maybe were back to ice cream vs meatloaf and veggies. There was a very powerful and emotional drama post by a married man who found out his wife was giving OM "31 flavors" of her ice cream that he was denied his whole marriage. Tough stuff. Edited October 31, 2013 by dichotomy 1
Clay Posted October 31, 2013 Posted October 31, 2013 IMO. Once a person cheats they made it clear to there spouse that they were not the best. I know I will probably take some heat for say that but it is the Truth. If the person you were with was the best you would have never strayed in the first place not even for a second. If you did have a recovery your spouse will allways know you settled for second best. It sucks but its the truth. You can never reclaim what was taken away. Clay 2
Zenstudent Posted October 31, 2013 Posted October 31, 2013 I do love much of this post, very insightful as are many of your posts. but for me it often comes down to - the mirror of this thread question - is your former cheating spouse now giving you their best ? or do you feel you are getting second best? See that's a tougher one to consider - when your comparing a marriage to the narrow scope of the affair. What does my spouse offer me vs him. Which one got best? How can you compare an affair to a marriage? Maybe were back to ice cream vs meatloaf and veggies. There was a very powerful and emotional drama post by a married man who found out his wife was giving OM "31 flavors" of her ice cream that he was denied his whole marriage. Tough stuff. Thanks Is your fWW giving you their best or not? Yes, that's equal to my closing question, which to me is the key, and yet so difficult to answer for so many BS - BTDT. The 31 flavors is indeed tough stuff to swallow so to speak, but even that isn't necessarily a digital process (I didn't see the thread referred to) - maybe I would prefer 3 flavors with extra tenderness and passion added, compared to 31 flavors mixed up in a hurry. I don't say this is the case in the thread you referred to, not even that 31 flavors couldn't possibly be woth striving for, I just say be carefull with comparissons and absolutes.
Zenstudent Posted October 31, 2013 Posted October 31, 2013 IMO. Once a person cheats they made it clear to there spouse that they were not the best. I know I will probably take some heat for say that but it is the Truth. If the person you were with was the best you would have never strayed in the first place not even for a second. If you did have a recovery your spouse will allways know you settled for second best. It sucks but its the truth. You can never reclaim what was taken away. Clay IMO, there's no absolute truth - there's your truth, my truth and everybody else's truth. How do you know that they wouldn't stray while thinking you're the best? Maybe they were just being momentarily stupid thinking they could have both? And yes, it sucks, I know, all too well. 1
Clay Posted October 31, 2013 Posted October 31, 2013 I guess it comes down to how you think about this and the level of thought a person would give to this subject. Is marriage serious. Was it serious to him or or when taking there vows. Did they stop prior and say you know I want to try that one too. One thing is for sure regardless of what reasons they might give for straying the damage they do is serious. Some people say well my spouse deserved it. I have only the point of view from the BH I have never been the WH so I could not clearly give good insight to the point of view. I can tell you I am damaged and I would seriously tell a women before I entered into a relationship that she is getting with someone that has been seriously damaged. My kids are damaged I am not qualified as a professional to fix them all I can do is love them and do my best to protect them from future damage. They still have contact with there mother she still damages them more. I have no legal recourse to take them away from her permanently if I could I would have done it from day one. Im sure I got off topic of this thread. Sorry about that. Clay
Stillscared Posted October 31, 2013 Posted October 31, 2013 I met the OW. She's much prettier than I am (she was the popular girl in highschool that he would never have been able to get back then). They had an affair for nearly 1 year. I have to admit it hurts. I console myself by knowing she's ugly inside. She cheated on her husband. She cheated in her own house. She cheated with a married man (mine). My heart and soul are pure and I know I have an inner beauty that she'll never possess. Plus it helps me tremendously that he tells me about all the ugly things about her... her heels were cracked, her wrinkles were visible in the sunlight, her skin was not soft, one of her FAKE boobs was deflated, and even more graphic things that I won't repeat here. I know he finds me more sexually attractive, more holy, more honest, more fit. We're all different and can't spend our lives wishing we were something we're not. I guess that will have to be enough. 1
Clay Posted October 31, 2013 Posted October 31, 2013 StillScared, Yes I think only you can decide what you want and are willing to deal with in your life. For me there is no room for those things. I had plenty of chances to cheat. I was offered alot of times to go spend time with other women. I made my choice to be faithful. I was committed to the word I had given to my xWW. It was my bond. I was raised my by Grand Parents. My Grand father always told me if you cant be true to your word then you are nothing. I feel in my heart he was right. I am glad to hear you are on the path to recovery and wish the very best for you. Clay
harrybrown Posted October 31, 2013 Posted October 31, 2013 Yes, the WS which is best. But I can't figure out which one she thinks is best. But since she made vows to me that she did not keep, she should not have been trying to figure out which is best. She already made that choice, and by making that choice, I will never forget it. But she has succeeded in killing any love I used to have for her. So in 2 years, when the last son is gone, I will be gone. She made her choice and I have made mine. She may tell me how I am her world and so much better, but when you make a choice, your spouse can also make a choice. My life will be better without her in it, because I will not live the rest of my life this way. By time I leave, the marriage will have been 40 years, 3 of which are a lie.
AlwaysGrowing Posted October 31, 2013 Posted October 31, 2013 I am more of the mind set of Dich and Zen. The BS being second best has nothing to do with my situation. My H wqs always the better man to me. He was never second best. I didn't view my A as having anything todo with him. So H was second best hou could say to my wants but not to xMM. But in my situation there weren't a lot of out right lies or time taken from my H. I was not my best for xMM. I was my worst. Worse than I have ever been. That is why I maintain i is a perception. Even i your spouse treate you like second best... You aren't. And as happens mostly, when the A is exposed the WS fighta and scrambles to keep their BS. Oh if they are really moraly bankrupt they try to keep AP too. And of course almost all AP say it is the kids or money... But I actually think that is rarely the case. The case is, the Ws knows who is best Very insightful. AP's generally accept the worst version of the WS. They cheer-lead to anothers demise and devastation of self. Something that most spouses would never encourage. The dating pool for a married person is very shallow, most could drown in a raindrop. I am also of the mindset, that cheating only speaks to those involved in the cheating, it doesn't say one thing about the betrayed. 1
Clay Posted October 31, 2013 Posted October 31, 2013 Coolit, Unread Today, 11:48 AM #44 Coolit Established Member I am more of the mind set of Dich and Zen. The BS being second best has nothing to do with my situation. I can understand this point of view but keep in mind your the one that cheated. I think if the tables had been turned you might have a different perspective but I can only talk to my point of view so it is fair to say I could be wrong. My H wqs always the better man to me. He was never second best. I didn't view my A as having anything todo with him. So H was second best hou could say to my wants but not to xMM. But in my situation there weren't a lot of out right lies or time taken from my H. Its hard I think in your current situation to come out and say your husband was or was not second. You did recover your marriage. In truth something caused you to looking for someone else other than your husband. Does that mean he did something wrong maybe or maybe not but clearly he was not giving you something you needed. You would not have even give the Affair a thought had there not been something wrong there. I know you did recover your marriage and others on this site have too. I commend all of you on at least trying to address your core problems. Clay 1
underwater2010 Posted October 31, 2013 Posted October 31, 2013 I refuse to be labeled second best just because my husband and EA with a MOW. I work my butt of for our family, take pride in being my kids mother, I am a great wife and a giver by nature. His stupid lapse is all on him. He took a chance and almost lost the best thing that could ever happen to him. He realizes it now. He has said how stupid he was and is grateful that I am willing to give him a second chance. FYI....she has nothing on me. She is overweight and a serial cheater. She has no sense of integrity or family. 1
yellowmaverick Posted October 31, 2013 Posted October 31, 2013 I agree with Artie, and as BetrayedH once said and i have reiterated, your H is an anomaly. But having read your other thread about your H's issues, definitely filled in some missing puzzle pieces. Subjectivity IE the perception of either the WS or BS can be argued as to what, when and how is the BS "second best" but objectively they BS is always second best. Frankly, a choice is made to do A rather than B, it is an opportunity cost, something is forsaken for the other. What i don't understand is why this is argued, why not admit they were second best but after the fog they are not? Why not admit that for certain needs or desires the AP was preferred? To me it's a wasted argument as to whether one feels the BS is second best, we already know the answer. What should be discussed is the process and realization to make the BS number one again. That is the real story. As for stereotypes, saying women are for emotions and men sexual, all affairs are sexual in one fashion or another. The problem is that most things like affairs that cover so many variables are not going to produce absolutes but certainly have majority and minority behaviors. I am sorry that you feel that way about yourself. The fact is, many BSs KNOW that they were never a second choice and their WSs proved that to them. What may be "the answer" for you is not necessarily the answer for everyone else.
Journee Posted October 31, 2013 Posted October 31, 2013 IMO. Once a person cheats they made it clear to there spouse that they were not the best. I know I will probably take some heat for say that but it is the Truth. If the person you were with was the best you would have never strayed in the first place not even for a second. If you did have a recovery your spouse will allways know you settled for second best. It sucks but its the truth. You can never reclaim what was taken away. Clay There are many days I do feel like this. I admit that the times that he could have been with his son and my pregnant self but still chose to drive to see another woman on his way to work I was second choice. That will not change for me. I am not in a place to reconcile right now effectively so I often remind myself of the gorey details. I am not going to compete with the memory of a woman he knew for a total of 8 weeks. Not gonna do it. I remember his choices though and what his actions said to me. 2
Clay Posted October 31, 2013 Posted October 31, 2013 Journee, You know your right. Its so hard to deal with that stuff. I could not do it. My xWW was in the mode of the OM was the best man she had ever met when I threw her out. I was just not going to even deal with it another second. It was three days before Christmas and she ruined it for the kids. I kept the kids and got custody. It took all of 27 days from Dday to be divorced. Now let me tell you finding a Lawyer at Christmas time to agree to file Divorce papers was extremely difficult then I had to revision them twice. I kept the house. I kept almost everything. I offered her family to come get her stuff. They didn't take much. The rest went it the trash. One thing I can tell you I am the better person I would not destroy my kids that way. My word is important to me. When I said I do it meant something to me. Just as when I said I was done. I meant that too. I am sorry you are suffering. I would honestly give anything to make the pain just go away. It sadly does not and you are right. Those details wont just vanish. Just know there are better men out there and lots of them that would love to be cherished by a woman that is faithful. The bright side is there are good people on this web site and they can help you. I maybe harsh on some of them but I have alot or respect for people like Coolit that comes here to make herself a better person. I think if more people would do that the world would be a better place. Thanks for listening. Clay 1
yellowmaverick Posted October 31, 2013 Posted October 31, 2013 I sure felt second best to my husband's lover. I am sorry that you felt that way.
Clay Posted October 31, 2013 Posted October 31, 2013 I sure felt second best to my husband's lover. I am really sorry to hear that as well. I know i felt like I was nothing and our kids were nothing to her as well. I hope you are doing better. Clay
Journee Posted October 31, 2013 Posted October 31, 2013 Journee, You know your right. Its so hard to deal with that stuff. I could not do it. My xWW was in the mode of the OM was the best man she had ever met when I threw her out. I was just not going to even deal with it another second. It was three days before Christmas and she ruined it for the kids. I kept the kids and got custody. It took all of 27 days from Dday to be divorced. Now let me tell you finding a Lawyer at Christmas time to agree to file Divorce papers was extremely difficult then I had to revision them twice. I kept the house. I kept almost everything. I offered her family to come get her stuff. They didn't take much. The rest went it the trash. One thing I can tell you I am the better person I would not destroy my kids that way. My word is important to me. When I said I do it meant something to me. Just as when I said I was done. I meant that too. I am sorry you are suffering. I would honestly give anything to make the pain just go away. It sadly does not and you are right. Those details wont just vanish. Just know there are better men out there and lots of them that would love to be cherished by a woman that is faithful. The bright side is there are good people on this web site and they can help you. I maybe harsh on some of them but I have alot or respect for people like Coolit that comes here to make herself a better person. I think if more people would do that the world would be a better place. Thanks for listening. Clay It sounds like you were able to take back control of your life. I hope that your children are adjusting well. That is by far the worst part. Yes the fact that he cheated on me for the third time (that I know of) while I pregnant. While I was having biopsies taken for precancerous spots. While we were being told that our youngest had markers for downs syndrome is enough. Thinking about how this will affect my babies...ugh. I actually take great solace in reading the stories from betrayed husband's. It reminds me that there are faithful men out there. Something I have not had the pleasure of experiencing. It is something I weigh out in my mind everyday. I think sometimes that my H thinks that women like me fall of off trees. I wish he had been with more women like his other women before we got together. I am not perfect by any means and have to admit that years of trying to recover from one affair and then another has made me even more difficult to love. I am not nearly as receptive as I would like to be. Just afraid to get hurt again. I think about starting fresh all of the time. I also admire the WS that are here or IRL that are doing the hard work to figure out what is going on with them. What may be going on with their BS. What they can do to have a successful reconciliation. Sadly, I often doubt that my WH will get it until we are signing D papers. I hope you are doing better everyday also.
AlwaysGrowing Posted October 31, 2013 Posted October 31, 2013 I don't see how the opinion of someone who is clearly not behaving in an honourable, respectful way...means something. I don't value the opinion of those that I do not respect, its that simple. So their view of me...means nothing. That is why, when a WS really looks at WHO they got validated from (ap), they are appalled at themselves. I have known some to actually throw up. 2
Clay Posted October 31, 2013 Posted October 31, 2013 Journee, "It sounds like you were able to take back control of your life. I hope that your children are adjusting well. That is by far the worst part. Yes the fact that he cheated on me for the third time (that I know of) while I pregnant. While I was having biopsies taken for precancerous spots. While we were being told that our youngest had markers for downs syndrome is enough. Thinking about how this will affect my babies...ugh." This just kills me inside to read this. Wow I just don't know how I would have handled those things on my own. You are obviously stronger than me. As to the part of taking control. I would not say I took control. It got much more crazier before it got better. I had four kids to take care of and work a full time job. My job is not like other peoples job. I can get called up any time day or night and have to work. I am a voice engineer. I work alot on 911 phone systems. When they call everything has to stop. Its been six years since my divorce and two kids have moved out since. Three girls one boy. Ages now 21,20,15,13. Let me tell you I thought i was dieing a few times lol I feel the same as you It does give me alot of hope that there are women out there that are faithful too. Are you kids doing better ? Clay 1
dichotomy Posted October 31, 2013 Posted October 31, 2013 (edited) Thanks Is your fWW giving you their best or not? Yes, that's equal to my closing question, which to me is the key, and yet so difficult to answer for so many BS - BTDT. The 31 flavors is indeed tough stuff to swallow so to speak, but even that isn't necessarily a digital process (I didn't see the thread referred to) - maybe I would prefer 3 flavors with extra tenderness and passion added, compared to 31 flavors mixed up in a hurry. I don't say this is the case in the thread you referred to, not even that 31 flavors couldn't possibly be worth striving for, I just say be careful with comparisons and absolutes. No problem, I was of course overstating 31 flavors (an American reference to ice cream stores), the thread/post I was thinking of involved "waywardcandy"...If I may be sexually exlpicit.she happily engaged in oral sex (with swallowing) and perhaps anal (can't recall ) which she repeatably refused to give to her husband over many years.... to his sadness. He was livid on this point as her emails to OM were boasting of how much she loved this giving. Later when trying to reconcile - she went all out with him sexually for a week or more - to try to give him "her best" in the bedroom. It did not work. Many such stories of men finding this out - that their wives went "full out" with AP's sexually or other wise. It is a complex issue I have studied and read about. Also I have read stories from BW's her were there WH's gave to OW beyond what they did for the wife - communication, support, going out for dinners, buying gifts, flowers, romance, etc... they were in a sense giving their best to OW in limited fashion. I think you get the point, many WS's simply open up and give like never before to AP. It is hurtful to find AP getting what was denied to BS. I struggle with something a bit along these lines, yet try to consider more broader things like - well WW never did OM's laundry, cared for him when he was sick, etc... that is.... an affair is not a marriage. Edited October 31, 2013 by dichotomy
Author Confused48 Posted November 1, 2013 Author Posted November 1, 2013 I sure felt second best to my husband's lover. Do you mean second best like, he would rather be with her but can't, so you are now the fall back option? So are you still with him? Why?
Author Confused48 Posted November 1, 2013 Author Posted November 1, 2013 No problem, I was of course overstating 31 flavors (an American reference to ice cream stores), the thread/post I was thinking of involved "waywardcandy"...If I may be sexually exlpicit.she happily engaged in oral sex (with swallowing) and perhaps anal (can't recall ) which she repeatably refused to give to her husband over many years.... to his sadness. He was livid on this point as her emails to OM were boasting of how much she loved this giving. Later when trying to reconcile - she went all out with him sexually for a week or more - to try to give him "her best" in the bedroom. It did not work. Many such stories of men finding this out - that their wives went "full out" with AP's sexually or other wise. It is a complex issue I have studied and read about. Also I have read stories from BW's her were there WH's gave to OW beyond what they did for the wife - communication, support, going out for dinners, buying gifts, flowers, romance, etc... they were in a sense giving their best to OW in limited fashion. I think you get the point, many WS's simply open up and give like never before to AP. It is hurtful to find AP getting what was denied to BS. I struggle with something a bit along these lines, yet try to consider more broader things like - well WW never did OM's laundry, cared for him when he was sick, etc... that is.... an affair is not a marriage. This is a very thoughtful expansion on what I intended and I welcome it. As well as further discussion on this. My intent though was to search for sentiments like mybell. I feel, perhaps irrationally, that if my WS could have chosen to be with AP then WS would have done that. So how do you deal with wanting to be with WS more than anything but wondering if WS is only with you bc AP turned down WS? Zen Student, this in not like a choice between steak or ice cream. Although I do completely enjoy every post you make. I repeat that Dichotomy's discussion is not a TJ and should continue.
Author Confused48 Posted November 1, 2013 Author Posted November 1, 2013 Some people say well my spouse deserved it. Im sure I got off topic of this thread. Sorry about that. Clay Maybe a little off topic but ok with me. I heard that. That I deserved it. Right after Dday. That is really damaging. WS retracted that. Still can not be erased. I wonder how much WS really does not believe it versus knows that it is a stupid thing to say and against WS interests to say. This sounds paranoid, I know. What, a BS paranoid!? Coolit, Unread Today, 11:48 AM #44 Coolit Established Member I am more of the mind set of Dich and Zen. The BS being second best has nothing to do with my situation. Does that mean he did something wrong maybe or maybe not but clearly he was not giving you something you needed. You would not have even give the Affair a thought had there not been something wrong there. Clay She was broken inside. It was not him that did something wrong. Ok, maybe he did something wrong. Maybe a TON of things wrong. But no matter. It was something in her that was broken that made her think the ok response to that was to have an A. And lots of people have affairs even when their BS did NOTHING wrong. They had a perfect spouse, perfect marriage and still had an A. I'm not perfect or even that good. My marriage was very flawed. So I'm not one in the above situation. But I know there are many who are. And even those in my situation can say, I DID NOT DESERVE YOU TO CHEAT ON ME! The WS should work on the M or divorce. Not cheat. Journee, You know your right. Its so hard to deal with that stuff. I could not do it. My xWW was in the mode of the OM was the best man she had ever met when I threw her out. I was just not going to even deal with it another second. It was three days before Christmas and she ruined it for the kids. I kept the kids and got custody. It took all of 27 days from Dday to be divorced. Now let me tell you finding a Lawyer at Christmas time to agree to file Divorce papers was extremely difficult then I had to revision them twice. I kept the house. I kept almost everything. I offered her family to come get her stuff. They didn't take much. The rest went it the trash. One thing I can tell you I am the better person I would not destroy my kids that way. My word is important to me. When I said I do it meant something to me. Just as when I said I was done. I meant that too. I am sorry you are suffering. I would honestly give anything to make the pain just go away. It sadly does not and you are right. Those details wont just vanish. Just know there are better men out there and lots of them that would love to be cherished by a woman that is faithful. The bright side is there are good people on this web site and they can help you. I maybe harsh on some of them but I have alot or respect for people like Coolit that comes here to make herself a better person. I think if more people would do that the world would be a better place. Thanks for listening. Clay I applaud your actions and resolve and hope you and your children have the best possible result.
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