Is the single person in an affair 'cheating' ?

[2sure]

Now THAT's an offensive stereotype, lol. To assume that someone that is Latino or Italian is Catholic. Go ahead and say that to someone from the culture "hey, you're probably Catholic, right?"... see what response you get on that. But be forewarned, I wouldn't stand too close while saying it.

 

 

It's not a stereotype, it's a demographic .

People don't ask strangers questions like that. Here, where I am.

[threelaurels]

Now THAT's an offensive stereotype, lol. To assume that someone that is Latino or Italian is Catholic. Go ahead and say that to someone from the culture "hey, you're probably Catholic, right?"... see what response you get on that. But be forewarned, I wouldn't stand too close while saying it.

 

It's a demographic, not a stereotype. Just look at Wikipedia.

 

Catholic Church by country - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

95.88% of Italy is Catholic.

 

If you look at various Latin American countries, most are 75%+ Catholic. Even countries like Cuba that have relatively low levels compared to other countries are over 50% Catholic.

 

Even with a very large margin of error, these cultures are still predominately Catholic.

[sweet_pea]

Nope, not a stereotype. As a member of at least one of those groups, I can tell you, it's accepted culturally. Women in our culture KNOW it's going on, and there is no judgment about it - it's pretty much accepted. Think "machismo" for both of these cultures. It's accepted, not frowned upon, and expected. In fact, if a man has a long term mistress AND a wife at home - he is looked at as more successful.

 

Which of these cultures are you a part of? I find it very interesting that and sad that cheating is accepted, and not frowned upon. I still believe it's a stereotype, or at the very least an exaggeration. I doubt everyone in the culture thinks, believes or behaves this way. Maybe a certain portion, but certainly not all (I mean, we have one guy who is Italian and hasn't done so).

[2sure]

The Latino community in my city has a higher percentage of crime and domestic violence against women. That doesn't mean they accept it.

[Furious]

Italian and Latino heritages are two cultures that come to mind immediately that almost expect their men to have mistresses. Really? You aren't aware of this? If I can ask, are you in the US? Because it is quite common here.

 

Well...if you believe that, than your whole theory of the poor cheating man who is much like an abused stray dog goes out the window.

 

Are you implying that every Latino or Italian man is suffering from sexual neglect or that they're just entitled men that are are culturally bred to cheat.

 

You're talking off both sides of your mouth.

[Sub]

I'm from an Italian family, married into a Latin family, have mostly Latin friends, and live in an area with one of the highest concentrations of Latinos and Italians in the U.S. This theory is nonsense. Yes, there are affairs within these cultures, and within my families, but I have never heard of it being expected, or accepted for that matter. It's an old stereotype that was somewhat true of past generations, much less so now.

[whatatangledweb]

We have Mexicans, Puerto Ricans, and Cubans in our family. It happens but it is not any more acceptable than in other cultures.

[rumbleseat]

It matters because not everyone has the same beliefs or morality "guidelines". Many morality guidelines are driven by religion, and those beliefs only apply to those that subscribe to that particular religion. Not to mention, not many "crimes" are universal - besides incest - and adultery is not a world wide "crime" or "immoral act". Heck, in the US it isn't even consistently viewed. However, I think everyone can agree that adultery is not murder - and that there exists a hieararchy of crimes at least, lol. If adultery was akin to murder - it would be a crime. It's not a crime, nor has it been since women became known as people instead of property (as back in the day ONLY a woman could be charged with adultery bc she belonged to her husband - husbands could "cheat" all they wanted, just not with another man's wife as that wife belonged to a different man).

 

Oh for flip sake...

Many posters on here are not American, not religious and do not agree with you. Please stop assuming they are mostly American and decide their values based upon some sort religious basis.

[Furious]

Wow, that's not EVEN close to what I said?! lol Not to mention, I have some very close family members who would take serious issue with me implying anything of the sort! lol Accepting relationships outside of marriage is in no way implying that Latino or Italian men are entitled nor "bred" (that's an ugly word that makes me think of slavery - and not human beings in today's society - ew) to "cheat".

 

You stated that Italian men are expected to have a mistress. Seems you're once again backtracking and insulting an entire nationality.

Edited October 30, 2013 by a LoveShack.org Moderator

[Furious]

Italian and Latino heritages are two cultures that come to mind immediately that almost expect their men to have mistressesD

 

This is exactly what you previously said.

[rumbleseat]

Thing is - I HAVE had it happen to me. I don't think of it any differently. My morals aren't guided by what only personally affects me negatively, that would be - well, selfish! I'm sure you don't know my story, but my exH had an affair - and despite giving him 100% responsibility for that (not his OW), I did not die. It was the end of a relationship. It hurt, but I healed and got over it and moved on - as most people (emotionally healthy people at least) will. Unless someone is suffering from some sort of disorder, they WILL heal, they will move on, they will probably fall in love again, they will most likely have another relationship in their life. You are not irreplaceable - neither is your spouse. There are BILLIONS of people in the world - some of them are really great fits for you - others, not so much.

 

I don't think most people say "so what"... but not everyone thinks it's the end of the world. We realize that the world keeps on spinning - just like after death - life goes on, we heal, we cope, we move on - we DO find happiness again. The longer people hang onto that "soulmate" and "they were the ONLY one for me" fairy tale crap, the harder that road is going to be - but even they will most likely eventually move on.

 

What does any of this have to do with anything in the OP?

 

The question being asked was about whether or not an ow/om was cheating.

 

Now since you've brought it up, it sounds as if you had zero idea of how an awful lot of people feel when they find out their spouse has had an affair. It's about a violation of trust and hurting the one person who should never intentionally hurt you. I really don't get why you can't understand that.

 

Most people who are bs's never subscribed to the "fairy tale crap" . Are you really telling me that your spouse cheating didn't hurt? That you weren't upset that your trust in him was shattered?

[ComingInHot]

Okay so in Middle school... (Yes a loooong time ago, but what a lesson!!) I allowed/enabled, encouraged even a friend to cheat off my paper during a test.

We got Caught, and would you believe the teacher Actually Failed my friend AND Me?!!?? I mean I wasn't the One who cheated, right?! Why in the World should I have gotten in any trouble at all? It's Not like I did anything illegal.......

 

...ya'll see where I'm going w/this right?

 

CIH*

[Spark1111]

I agree. I'm just pointing out that one person's morality isn't going to be EVERYONE's morality. I think a lot of people get hung up on this, and frustrated that not everyone has the same exact morality codes and guidelines that they do - and that's silly considering all of the variations of beliefs and cultures and people in the world. I agree, if you marry someone that is NOT of a culture that accepts mistresses, and they are dishonest with you about said mistresses, of course - you have every right to take issue as they agreed with you that they had the same morality guidelines that you do. My issue here is the blanket statement that anyone participating in an affair has "no morality" or is a "sociopath", lol. Of course they have morality and aren't a sociopath just because their guidelines of morality are different than yours - right?

 

I think the stereotype is BELIEVING this stereotype is true.

 

I have friends and family members that are 100 percent Italian and Latino, many first generation, and a more educated and refined group of people who do not tolerate nor embrace EMRs would be hard to come by....

 

I reiterate that Philandering misogynists are raised in families where that is accepted, not cultures......

 

AND, as I read news from around the world, women are shooting or divorcing those bast$rds there also.

[sweet_pea]

Of course not every single person in any culture agrees on these types of things, there are always the outliers. But, it's not a stereotype - it's Machismo. And, of course not every single person in the culture does so, lol. But, in the cultures, it is accepted, it doesn't carry the stigma it does in the more general American culture. Someone mentioned this has been phased out - not at all. As with any culture, there are people that are more traditional and those that are more modern. But, mostly - at least until those "old" traditionalists die out - and all of their children and grandchildren and great grandchildren who are also traditionalists - die - it will remain a culturally accepted thing. I would rather not say which I'm from - but I am part of one and have a VERY close link to the other, lol.

 

Can I ask why you won't share? I'm not asking for any personal information, just wondering which culture you are from (either Italian or from a number of Latino cultures)? Like you've brought it up that you're a part of either plenty of times to support your stance, so is there a reason why you can't share?

[Spark1111]

stray dogs, 10 commandments and now "certain cultures" and differing moralities where it is okay to cheat.

 

My head hurts.

 

No. It is not okay to cheat. And yes. Single APs are still cheating.

 

What's next? the Book of Revelation? The teachings of Nostradamus? the Ashley Madison web site survey? The Sudan rebels?

 

night all.....

[Furious]

Yep "almost expected" definitely means that they are all, every single one, bred to cheat. No need to try to be obtuse really - just say what you want to say, lol. I said it is accepted and they are "almost expected" to have mistresses...

 

So, not expected to at all, but nearly expected to. *sigh*

 

Nearly expected.....ok...all righty then....

[sweet_pea]

Oh, my family doesn't "accept" it at all - but my culture, by and large, does. Of course you know people who are first generation Latinos who are hardcore and deadset against it - they do exist, lol. These cultures too are by and large, not keen on sharing their **** with outsiders to their culture. And, if I'm not mistaken, you made a really bigoted remark about how if they are Latino or Italian, they are probably Catholic (which trust me, does not go down well on those in these ethnicities that are NOT Catholic - and there are enough that aren't. Yeah, percentage wise it seems small-ish - but those percentages represent a whole hell of a LOT of people, lol).

 

And yes, we are a hard working family, and well educated and refined - but so are many other families in our culture that accept mistresses as part of life. And "almost expect" them (read other post, almost expecting is not the same as everyone expecting every single one of them to do so). It's got nothing to do with their religion (no, they aren't all Catholic and to assume so is bigoted - like saying that most terrorists are Middle Eastern, therefore all Middle Easterners are terrorist, ugh). It's cultural. Just bc it doesn't match YOUR morality guidelines doesn't mean it's "less" moral than you or your actions. I'm SURE that you do things that some others would find immoral - that's the beauty of not having any really universal morality issues in this big world we live in - it's different everywhere you go. And pretending to be "more" moral is egocentric - assuming that your guidelines are "right" and everyone elses are wrong - or less moral. Think about that...

 

I don't think you know what bigoted means.....lol I mean it is a fact that most Italians and Latinos are Catholic, I don't know why you're offended by that? No one is saying they all are?

[Spark1111]

I do nothing that anyone would deem immoral except maybe smoke on occasion, especially when having a glass of wine, like now.

 

I did not say the countries are Catholic. I presented the Catholic church's stance on adultery. It's a major sin, one a spouse can be granted a divorce for.

 

A woman can seek a divorce for the same reason in Orthodox Judaism, and receive a get from the Rebbe.

 

I do not believe philandering is culturally based, rather family based. IF it is acceptable in one's family, one will tolerate it because your elder's did and they are your role models like it or not.

 

my morality is the majority morality, like and accept it, or not. cheating is wrong, mistresses are not pampered and glorified divas as much as they would like to believe it is true and people die every day, everywhere in the world, when betrayal is discovered.

 

I rest my case.

[seren]

I was raised a Unitarian, this means, very basically, that we accept that people have different views, lifestyles than our own. We are taught justice, equality and compassion in relationships and that if we knowingly do something that hurts another that we own it, we admit it, we learn from it and we never, knowingly do harm to another. pretty good yardsticks to live by. Not all relationships will last, I have divorced twice, it's not easy, but it is easier than trying to keep a marriage alive when love has gone.

 

Cheating is, for me, a form of theft, it is theft of the worse kind as it robs a person of that most basic of human rights, that to make an informed choice. I don't give a toss if any other couple, culture or religion accepts cheating, I only care about the relationship I am in. If I am with someone and we have discussed over and over how important fidelity is and what we expect from our relationship, than those are our accepted and agreed norms. I would hope and expect that if this changed, then I would be told, if only that I had choice.

 

I hold this to be a value important to me and because I married a person where this was an accepted part of what made us, then I expect a reciprocal truth. Anyone who enables the breaking of that, knowing it was going to hurt the other, is, if not cheating, showing a lack of compassion and that crosses all religous, cultural and accepted boundaries and no one should ever get to decide how or if hurts another.

[Spark1111]

I believe there is a universal moral and ethical code. Whether it developed because of evolution or religeon. It is what we teach are kids (or should). And I believe that one some level we do hold those around us to that. I also believe we are free to make our own choices but i don't think those choices should be made at the expense of someone else.

 

Being gay- doesn't affect anyone else. Oh people get all upset but really. Someone being gay doesn't change me.

Having an open marriage- not the lifestyle for me but two consenting adults. Doesn't affect my life...

Someone having a relationship with my H and having sex with him behind my back- ummmm, yes, that is hurting me. That is someone deliberatly disregarding me as a human being with needs and emotions just so they can fill there own selfish desires. We teach our kids to ask first before taking... But as adults we can just throw that out?

 

That is why fidelity is a universal moral code. Cheating is always always always wrong. The only people who deny it are the ones who want to feel better aboit their decision to destroy someone's spirit and crush them. Religeon has nothing to so with it.

 

.....and neither does culture, neglected dogs, the 10 Commandments, or differing morality codes, IMO.

[goodyblue]

I believe there is a universal moral and ethical code. Whether it developed because of evolution or religeon. It is what we teach are kids (or should). And I believe that one some level we do hold those around us to that. I also believe we are free to make our own choices but i don't think those choices should be made at the expense of someone else.

 

Being gay- doesn't affect anyone else. Oh people get all upset but really. Someone being gay doesn't change me.

Having an open marriage- not the lifestyle for me but two consenting adults. Doesn't affect my life...

Someone having a relationship with my H and having sex with him behind my back- ummmm, yes, that is hurting me. That is someone deliberatly disregarding me as a human being with needs and emotions just so they can fill there own selfish desires. We teach our kids to ask first before taking... But as adults we can just throw that out?

 

That is why fidelity is a universal moral code. Cheating is always always always wrong. The only people who deny it are the ones who want to feel better aboit their decision to destroy someone's spirit and crush them. Religeon has nothing to so with it.

 

Well, I feel terrible that my guy's ex wife was hurt. But I also understand why he stepped out on her, and why he left the marriage. I don't feel I crushed her spirit. I feel she checked out of the marriage years ago and she knows it. She can cry about how he's left her now, but why didn't she do a single thing to make things better when he was begging her years ago? So, go ahead and blame him, and me, but she made the choice to break their vows long before he did. I'm just grateful he didn't drag it out, that he got out of the marriage and on with his life. He's a much happier, calmer, sweeter person without her making him feel worthless every day. It goes both ways.

[aliveagain]

I shouldn't have used the word fidelity. Because peope take that to mean only sex. My meaning was faithfulness. Polygamy, swinging, and the like are not beijg unfaithful because one spouse isn't setting their own moral code without the other knowing.

 

Twist it all you want. Faithfulness is moral. Lying and cheating is not. And plenty of people engage in affairs without believing they are behaving ethicaly and moraly.

 

If a spouse is in a sexless marriage and they inform their spouse they will be seeking sex elsewheres and the spouse chooses to stay... That is not cheating. And the AP is just a booty call. An if the AP is okay with that. Or just being the AP they are making their own choice but are not a part of a betrayal.

 

I shudder at a world where people take what they want, seek their own happiness, and do it at others expense. If that is progress i hope it stops.

 

I posted a thread in General about posting an ad for a travel partner. No one in a relationship qualify's for the position, they would spend a year with me travelling the world without it costing them one cent. At the end of the year they would be compensated with an additional $100,000.00 after tax to help them get reestablished. No cheating is involved, I wasn't going to dictate where we went, we would decide together and intimacy would be a factor. Two adults who are not in a relationship with anyone else would agree to be a couple for a year with no one else knowing. I don't want another bad relationship specially with another cheater. We are both seeking a temporary happiness, it's a conscious decision by two adults and we are not hurting someone we are committed to yet posters thought I was somehow turning them into something else with the offer. Would you consider that as an example of me seeking my own own happiness at the cost of others? We are not lying to a spouse, we are not sneaking around anyone's back, we never broke an oath, just two people on an adventure.

[lollipopspot]

I think the problem most people would see with that is somehow as soon as you add money it looks like prostitution.

 

Honestly though, it really is just compenstation. You have the cash, she may not. Besides most kept AP could be viewed as prostitutes too...

 

Well, the money exchange (compensation) for sex is prostitution by definition, and that seems to be part of the expectation/offer.

 

You can't really say that about APs (any more than you can about marriage or dating), unless there is some specific agreement that he will give her money or items in compensation for sex, i.e. if the AP is a compensated escort of some kind. I don't think that is a defining feature of the AP relationship.

 

Edit - I see you said "kept APs"...not sure how common "kept mistresses" are nowadays!

[seren]

Right. Totally agree. But what about the relationships where the BS is NOT hurt by it? Not an open marriage, but the BS really just doesn't care? Is maybe even glad that their spouse is not "bugging" them about intimacy any longer? Is that still "theft"? I mean, if I take something that you don't want anyway - is that theft? How about if your spouse GIVES me something that you don't want? Still theft?

 

OK, my take on this is that, if I am happy that my H is getting something he needs that I don't choose to give him from elsewhere, then it isn't so much theft as me and he agreeing our relationship will remain intact while he has his needs met elsewhere and the same applying to me (general). It is all down to informed choice, if you look at a marriage or relationship as an agreed set of norms between those in that relationship, then anything not jointly agreed upon and done covertly breaks that agreement. The WS still enjoys the benefits of being in a reciprocal relationship, but while doing so is choosing to decieve the other relationship partner. That is, of course cheating, no amount of semantics will or can change that very basic fact.

 

If the WS or BS say, if you do A, then I will do B, then that again is informed choice and to me at least, that is the key of any discussion about what is right or wrong or acceptable or moral about cheating - one believes one reality and gives of themselves to the other whatever they are giving based upon their shared norms, in this instance fidelity. It has nothing to do with the AP what the married couple have agreed, if the committed couple agree it is OK for the WS to seek whatever, wherever, then the AP, if they too have informed choice as to whether they are happy to fulfill this need is also making an decision based upon fact.

 

From reading here and elsewhere, it can often be that both BS and AP expect there to be an agreed action by the WS, for those who stay in A's waiting, they can never know if the WS is going to leave, until they do, many are hurt and let down when this doesn't happen especially after a D Day when the BS finds out and lays down their terms for stying in the relationship - either end it or leave. In that instance I would say that it is also the AP that is cheated, cheated of their understanding of reality.

 

Religion, morality, culture aside, it is the agreement and understanding of what the marriage or realtionship is, what are the boundaries, rules, acceptable actions if they impact upon the other that is the starting point. In most relationships, there will be a conversation about what the relationship means or is, if at any time either believes they cannot fulfill their side of things, then they need to say, people aren't mind readers, this allows discussion and if no consensus reached, then end the relationship. It really isn't rocket science. Any third party that enables the deceit is an enabler, but not a cheat.

 

I think I was 'lucky' in H's OW, she owned her part, recognised that it was H that had hurt her and that it was she who heard what hadn't been said. I cannot imagine how hurtful it would be to be the AP if the BS and WS have an agreement he can seek what the BS will not give from them. I can imagine the convo as being, right then love I am off to see X, BS saying OK love, enjoy, will keep dinner ready for when you get home, bye, love you. If I knew of that happening and the AP not knowing I would be as mad as hell for the AP and if they know, hope they know just what the relationship is based upon so they too can have informed choice.

Edited October 30, 2013 by seren

[waterwoman]

Lying is the big issue here iMO. Not in a minor way such as 'yes, I really enjoyed that millet and courgette risotto you cooked last night darling', but in a big, life-shattering way such as promising to agree to the bit about 'forsaking all others, keep thee only unto him/her'. Or do people cross their fingers behind their backs when they sat that? Whatever your personal, religious or cultural stance on sexual fidelity, most adults agree that telling major untruths is a BAD THING TO DO. You can throw as much verbal gymnastics and moral sophistry at the subject as you like but it doesn't change that simple fact. How can anyone live a decent life when they aren't in possession of the full facts about that life.