justconfused25 Posted October 29, 2013 Posted October 29, 2013 (edited) Hello LS community. Ever since I've been trying to get my ex back, I've been quite actively lurking this forum but especially this sub-forum in hopes of 2 things: to read any encouraging successful stories for a morale booster and to read any tips on getting an ex back. Since June, it has been my dream to log on this forum one day having her back and be able to tell my story while also sharing what I've learned. I know every story is different but even if my journey will give hope to even 1 person, I'll be happy . My Story Is Relevant to: Successfully getting an ex back Dumper turning into Dumpee Dumper's perspective Contact vs No contact Bad boys vs Nice guys I broke up with my ex of 1.5 years almost 1 year ago today due to me thinking I was taken for granted and perhaps wanting to see what was out there. We were each others true first loves and firsts for almost everything. After I broke up with her, I initiated very cold no-contact because I didn't want to lead her on as I didn't feel like the problems I disliked about her could be fixed. She was devastated and asked for a second chance which I turned down. After the break up, 7 months went by before I saw and contacted her to get something back from her that was mine. Prior to meeting up with her to get my stuff back, I was thinking of her and our good times every now and then. During that night I picked up my things, I felt of a wave of feelings overcome me and truly saw the change in her positively over the 7 months we didn't talk. She fixed a lot of the negatives about her as a girlfriend and what changed her was that she dated another guy after that took her for granted. Dating him made her appreciate all the stuff I dated her and how much better she could've treated me. Hearing that, I thought to myself "Surely, I have a decent chance of getting her back since she knows how much better I am as a BF". So I asked her back to be my GF that night and....got horribly rejected. Turns out as bad as he was to her, she still had strong feelings for him. She wanted to get back with him and I was baffled. Throughout June - Sept, I felt like I had become the dumpee because I had asked her out on 5 separate occasions to get back and these are the reasons as to why she didn't want to: She didn't feel protected with me, we knew each other too well that it got boring, I didn't have a foreseeable career, I was not the body type she liked, she wanted to work on herself, she wants to be single, and lastly She loves me but she's not IN love with me. Basically she lost feelings for me completely because the new guy made her forget me. Despite that, in terms of a friend she treated me VERY well like a best friend or brother I'd say. Through these months I struggled so hard debating whether I should continue contact in hopes to win her heart or do no-contact to either make her miss me or heal myself. She is also my best friend so I leaned on continuing to do contact as much as it hurt. Some of my lowest points were when I found out she slept with her ex once even when I was back in the picture, I went on a trip with her and slept on the same bed having no physical contact whatsoever, cuddling with her one night to be told the next morning she didn't feel anything emotionally, and her telling me bluntly that it saddens her because she can already tell I am not what she wants. All of these cues hit me very hard but I was persistent with my efforts. I would see her a couple times a week during summer strictly as a friend and when I had to go back to school we talked on the phone every night. During this time she referred to me as her "bestfriend". Throughout the last month and a half, I could feel I was very slowly inching some progress as our hangouts would get more comfortable (nothing sexual) and she seemed like she was getting over the guy. However, I still wasn't sure if that would mean I have a chance. 2 weeks ago, I gave her an ultimatum as I had enough of the emotional roller coaster. I told her I am going to ask her back as my GF in Dec. and if she turns it down, I will need to do no-contact and move on. Today, finally I have won her back as my GF. I asked her back before Dec. because I was hanging out with her and in the moment I could feel the moment was right. She finally agreed. Now here is what I have learned. 1. Make up your mind, STICK WITH IT but don't cry over the results. This applies especially for debating whether to do contact or not. For me, after awhile I had made up my mind that I will do full-contact to get her back. Once I made this decision, no matter how hurt I got from false hope I told myself its my choice to get hurt. I can walk away anytime but if I made the decision to do contact, I can't weep and cry about it to my family and friends. I deserve the pain but maybe it would be worth it. 2. Every situation is different. After reading similar stories on LS about being friend zoned by an ex, at one point I really thought I had no chance. I met a lot of the criterion of being friendzoned such as being an emotional pillow, her joking i'm her gay bestfriend, etc. My friends and family also told me to give up as they've heard similar stories and she was just stringing me along. However, I knew she is not that type of person no matter what anyone said. Assess the ex you are trying to get back to see if they have any malicious intent. If you think you know them best deep down and they are sincere, keep pursuing. Do not lose hope because of similar stories you might have read. 3. DO NOT VILIFY your ex for being unsure and not liking you back if they truly mean it. My ex was unsure of getting back for almost 4 months. I went on LS and after having read similar stories, I started feeling I had the right to hate on her because she was being "selfish" for being so indecisive. I thought i was letting her "win" by having the best of both worlds (me being her best friend while she doesn't get back with me) In retrospect after having talked to her about this, she was truly very confused about us at the time. I think a lot of time what happens if when you go on LS, or talk to friends and family they will always take your side, try to protect you (he/she doesn't deserve you) and treat you as a victim. Don't let it get to you and look at your situation in a non-biased way. 4. Bad Boys vs Nice Guys. Her ex was a bad boy and I'm a nice guy. I beat myself over countless why i'm such a nice guy because I thought that makes me boring. She told me she was so attracted to him because he was always so hard to figure out emotionally while I poured my heart out. I was easy to get and he would also not give her the proper attention she wanted causing her to want more. Now that she is over him, she looks back and just said that he was something new. That is why she liked him but in the end she realizes she highly prefer nice guys more. Nice guys can win! 5. This might be counter-intuitive to some but I find that..if you hang out with a person enough feelings are bound to develop. Again, to this day I can't believe she wants to get back after having told me stuff like "There are many things I don't like about you that I can't get past" and "Can't you just be happy for me if you see me dating someone else?" 2 months ago. If feelings don't initially develop, don't rule out that it won't in the future even if it takes being her best friend in the beginning. 6. Lastly, as cliche as it sound work on yourself. In the beginning of my journey I read countless times how much it works to work on yourself. Instead, I did the opposite and lost weight, started doing poorly in school, and started smoking. Then I reversed within the last month of so as in worked out did better academically and she said that was definitely 1 big factor to getting her back. She said it was just sad how I let myself go and that was a turn off. Work on yourself! This is just MY STORY and in no way do I think it works for every situation. It is just what I've learned and am grateful to have this chance to share. I wish everyone seriously the best of luck as I have felt the pain of many of you and wish no one to go through it. I will answer questions you guys ask about anything. Edited October 29, 2013 by justconfused25 1
ariawuu Posted October 29, 2013 Posted October 29, 2013 (edited) Thanks for sharing! I'm in this situation right now.. where I'm the best friend but also keeping full contact.. b/up happened in beginning of April. It's been a wild emotional roller coaster but I'm doing my best to give time to myself and bring good changes to my life! I want you to know that your post is really inspiring to me and that anything can really happen I'd like to ask though, when did you guys break up and how old are you guys currently? I'm 20 and he is almost 20 as well, so still have a lot of growing to do as adults (and not to mention a fair bit of healing to do), so I was thinking of saving my efforts until we have grown a bit more to handle a potential relationship together in the future and just focus on ourselves for now. Good news is.. he told me today that he is still in love with me when 6.5 months ago he said "the fire was burning out" so I can tell he has been really confused himself.. I keep telling myself, that the best way to hold on is to let go for now so you can love yourself fully! Edited October 29, 2013 by ariawuu
Philosoraptor Posted October 29, 2013 Posted October 29, 2013 So you just got back together with her today? After giving her an ultimatum? I wish you the best, but can't see this ending in a happy ever after. Sounds like you put her on the spot and rather than losing you as a friend she agreed. Pressure will not build a strong commitment. Honestly it sounds like you were her emotional tampon for awhile then when you gave the ultimatum she didn't want to lose you being emotionally there for her. Give an update in 6 months, as you just got back together today, beacuse of an ultimatum, and you're offering a lot of false hope to people reading this. Again, I wish you the best. But this is a bit premature, as it sounds like she fears losing her emotional tampon more than actually wanting to be with you in a romantic sense. 9
ariawuu Posted October 29, 2013 Posted October 29, 2013 Derp. Sorry for asking answers to questions that are already in your post that you made-been sleepy to not have read the post properly. But have you guys had a conversation about ways to keep your relationship together this time and discussed on the issues you had in your old relationship?
plumpud Posted October 29, 2013 Posted October 29, 2013 I have to say, if my ex tried to get me back with an ultimatum it would only push me away. It's really a fear tactic. Not sincere and selfish! Can't you see you're really taking advantage of her desperation? If you really love someone you give them freedom, not try to possess them. You should give her time(freedom) to decide, let her live, not try to control her. Get my drift? 2
Author justconfused25 Posted October 29, 2013 Author Posted October 29, 2013 (edited) To the first poster, i'm 20 as well and broke up last November. I think it's really interesting that a few posters a really concerned about the ultimatum part. A little bit of context for that. When I gave that to her, I too felt a little bit selfish and she didn't like how I put a deadline on our relationship. However, I did not pressure her in anyway yesterday asking her back. The vibe that I got for her to get back was completely natural but that's just me. She was very happy about this decision and my instinct was that it was real. I would like to think she didn't do it out of fear because of 2 reasons: 1. I have told her in the past 2 times that I was on the near brink of having to do no contact when I found out she had slept with her ex and another incident. Both times she cried not wanting to lose me but whenever I brought up getting back, she was actually furious. This in turn would lead her to allowing her to let me go. I think she is the type that hates to be threatened and ultimatums do not work on her in the sense of scaring her (much like plumpud's reaction). I did it for myself because by Dec. I would have waited 6 months and that is the max time I told myself I'd wait for anyone. 2. If she in fact did not truly want to get back with me and got back out of fear, I think she would've wanted to prolong the "bestfriend" relationship until Dec. She did not have to get back with me yesterday knowing that she had until Dec. to make a decision and yet she did. Overall, I will keep you guys posted and give an update in 6 months. Lastly, to the other poster. We just said treat this second chance as a new relationship instead of a continuation of the last. I do not want to be too optimistic but her fixing her flaws which is why I wanted to get back with her in the first place should make this relationship a lot easier. Edited October 29, 2013 by justconfused25
lylat333 Posted October 29, 2013 Posted October 29, 2013 OP thanks for sharing your story even if it does not line up with conventional LS wisdom. Always nice to hear detailed stories like this regardless. I find it all very interesting... but as much as I believe I loved my ex and how deeply I wanted it to work out there is no way I could have gone through remaining in contact with her like that. Not worth the risk for me, no way. It is nice to see people can change after saying things like, "I'm not attracted to you" etc. I have kind of believed that but when my ex told me at the end she wasn't attracted to me anymore, it hurt... shot my ego. But I always maintain the hope things can come around, attraction and come back and I feel this story is evidence of that. Say what you will about OP's methods - but imo people will not even give a relationship a chance if there is no attraction, so something is there. Whether or not it will last, that remains to be seen. Things could be a bit emotional right now and after the dust settles you'll have a better idea how both of you feel. 1
plumpud Posted October 30, 2013 Posted October 30, 2013 To the first poster, i'm 20 as well and broke up last November. I think it's really interesting that a few posters a really concerned about the ultimatum part. A little bit of context for that. When I gave that to her, I too felt a little bit selfish and she didn't like how I put a deadline on our relationship. However, I did not pressure her in anyway yesterday asking her back. The vibe that I got for her to get back was completely natural but that's just me. She was very happy about this decision and my instinct was that it was real. I would like to think she didn't do it out of fear because of 2 reasons: 1. I have told her in the past 2 times that I was on the near brink of having to do no contact when I found out she had slept with her ex and another incident. Both times she cried not wanting to lose me but whenever I brought up getting back, she was actually furious. This in turn would lead her to allowing her to let me go. I think she is the type that hates to be threatened and ultimatums do not work on her in the sense of scaring her (much like plumpud's reaction). I did it for myself because by Dec. I would have waited 6 months and that is the max time I told myself I'd wait for anyone. 2. If she in fact did not truly want to get back with me and got back out of fear, I think she would've wanted to prolong the "bestfriend" relationship until Dec. She did not have to get back with me yesterday knowing that she had until Dec. to make a decision and yet she did. Overall, I will keep you guys posted and give an update in 6 months. Lastly, to the other poster. We just said treat this second chance as a new relationship instead of a continuation of the last. I do not want to be too optimistic but her fixing her flaws which is why I wanted to get back with her in the first place should make this relationship a lot easier. It doesn't matter when she decided to come back to you, the fact is that you imposed your ultimatum onto her. Instead of telling her about it, you should have kept it to yourself. Then if she actually did come around, it would have been totally of her own accord and not b/c of your ultimatum.
todreaminblue Posted October 30, 2013 Posted October 30, 2013 this your story is rare, i am happy for you and hope truly everything works outthe best for both of you, however, ultimatums suck...they are pressure a confused person doesnt need....... no contact si the only way i move on from strong feelings....a guy can be a total schyte to me and ill try to justify the way he treats me because i like to think i can fix that negativity i fix everything, fridges filters you name it ill have a go broken dvd players...tvs computers, riddles by pure persistence...i bring things back from the dead...even drowned flies.........people the same...i find it hard to quit never was a quitter tasted like a rain rub...lol...sorry channeling my inner dj.......some roxette for you.... tangent.... anyway no contact is a necessity for some.....philosoraptor said you have to do what you should do to take care of yourself first...something along those lines and it is 100 per cent true...some people forgo their own health for others and its all about the other person not themselves...i am one....so no contact for me is completely necessary and i dont go back......i forgive but i cant go back....i have stayed in abusive relationships and ones where it was one sided......it never works..and i am nto a quitter peopel quit on me....understandably.....it has to feel natural and right, any form of fear associated with being with someone...jealousy is fear with anger attached..........and when it has fear or negative connotations and or ultimatums........it is normally wrong...and needs to end..........thats my opinion...you must forgive....but you dont have to die doing it.deb 1
Author justconfused25 Posted October 30, 2013 Author Posted October 30, 2013 (edited) It doesn't matter when she decided to come back to you, the fact is that you imposed your ultimatum onto her. Instead of telling her about it, you should have kept it to yourself. Then if she actually did come around, it would have been totally of her own accord and not b/c of your ultimatum. Plumpud, you are making assumptions straight off that bat that you are so sure she came back because of the ultimatum. Now assume that my girlfriend was like you in the sense that she hates ultimatums and they actually backfire. What would it take for women like you to get back with an ex? Probably real feelings. If it doesn't work on you, why can't you believe it didn't work on her as I mentioned in a previous post. You see where I'm going with this? I honestly don't get why you sound a bit hostile towards me lol. Perhaps it's because you clearly don't agree with my ultimatum for her or this has happened in your life before. There is no rule in love what works or not. For some, ultimatums may be the only way for a person to realize what they might lose because they needed that extra push. In my case however, based on my instinct I can tell you she came back on her own willingly. I just think the focus of this "ultimatum" has taken away the point of this thread which is why I ask any doubters to trust me the ultimatum played no role in getting her back. If anyone would like to continue on that subject, PM instead and I will go in detail why I am so sure. Edited October 30, 2013 by justconfused25
felicity1 Posted October 30, 2013 Posted October 30, 2013 (edited) Plumpud, you are making assumptions straight off that bat that you are so sure she came back because of the ultimatum. Now assume that my girlfriend was like you in the sense that she hates ultimatums and they actually backfire. What would it take for women like you to get back with an ex? Probably real feelings. If it doesn't work on you, why can't you believe it didn't work on her as I mentioned in a previous post. You see where I'm going with this? I honestly don't get why you sound a bit hostile towards me lol. Perhaps it's because you clearly don't agree with my ultimatum for her or this has happened in your life before. There is no rule in love what works or not. For some, ultimatums may be the only way for a person to realize what they might lose because they needed that extra push. In my case however, based on my instinct I can tell you she came back on her own willingly. I just think the focus of this "ultimatum" has taken away the point of this thread which is why I ask any doubters to trust me the ultimatum played no role in getting her back. If anyone would like to continue on that subject, PM instead and I will go in detail why I am so sure. You're contentedness is all that matters. But if you don't want peoples' responses, then don't post. I have had pressures put on me by others. It is imprisoning and suffocating, especially when you are deeply connected to the other person. It is a sign that they don't really love you. That they just want to own you and that what they want is more important. And by the way, there are rules in love. The most important of them all is that there is no love without freedom. Edited October 30, 2013 by felicity1 1
plumpud Posted October 30, 2013 Posted October 30, 2013 (edited) No man, I'm not being hostile. Just concerned. Relationships are not easy. We live and learn. Edited October 30, 2013 by plumpud
Author justconfused25 Posted October 30, 2013 Author Posted October 30, 2013 (edited) You're contentedness is all that matters. But if you don't want peoples' responses, then don't post. I have had pressures put on me by others. It is imprisoning and suffocating, especially when you are deeply connected to the other person. It is a sign that they don't really love you. That they just want to own you and that what they want is more important. And by the way, there are rules in love. The most important of them all is that there is no love without freedom. I am honestly open to responses but I just thought it was derailing the point of my thread. The focus was not supposed to be fixated on the ultimatum. I agree there are definitive rules in love like never cheat on your partner. What I meant in terms of no rules is in the context of getting someone back. Anything can work. As for your last comment, I kindly disagree. I guess it's because I have been on the other side just recently where I made my girlfriend (ex before) feel slightly suffocated by my constant pressure of wanting to get back. I agree it was not the best way to handle it but it was not because I wanted to OWN her. It was because I realized how special she was that I was so afraid to lose her that I acted that way. Obviously, if you truly love someone you want them to have the freedom to choose without pressure but that is very much harder said then done especially when you chose the route of full-contact. I don't know if you've ever been on the other side but I don't think you should make generalizations because of your personal experience. It's one of the points in my thread for readers viewing this wanting to get back with an ex. Every situation is different and nothing in love can be certain. I just want readers to know that just because the majority of the LS community or even friends/family lean towards NC with getting back an ex back does not mean that should always be the case. If you are insane about your ex, then embrace insanity, take a leap of faith and do contact! Edited October 30, 2013 by justconfused25
felicity1 Posted October 31, 2013 Posted October 31, 2013 Hey I know it's difficult to let go. I'm in the same situation that you were in recently. It's just that standing back lets you see the big picture. You can't see the dysfunction when you keep staying in it. I can see it in your situation(from what you have written) b/c I am an outsider. You are still caught in it so you can't see it for what it really is. I'm just eager to share with you what I have learnt from choosing space. But as they say, it's best to learn the hard way.
Simon Phoenix Posted October 31, 2013 Posted October 31, 2013 (edited) The main thing here is that you broke up with her initially. This story is well and good and all, but the fact that you were the dumper and not the dumpee changes a lot of the perspective of the story. You did want all dumpees on here are advised to look for from their dumpers in a reconciliation -- persistent pursuit. Even though you might have felt like the dumpee, you were originally the dumper, therefore your strategy and advice doesn't really apply to the majority of this board, since most people who come on here are the ones originally dumped. If most people who come to this board did your approach (especially without any sort of NC), there would be a spike in restraining orders and hurt feelings. Also, since you did use NC, so your story isn't that much different from some of the advice that is given here. IMO NC should be used until you reach a point where you are healed and you are good either way. After that, it's up to you what you want to do. But I wouldn't represent this story as "using full contact to get her back" because a) you were originally the dumper and b) you used full contact after using No Contact. I think you are misrepresenting what happened when you describe it as such, as dumpees will see this and thing "Oh yeah, I'm going to go after my ex and talk to them every day and buy them gifts and oh yeah, they'll love me." I would emphasize the fact that you were a dumper and that you did a sizable NC much more than your full contact, because it was those two things that gave you the foundation for reconciliation first and foremost. Also, I think you might be doing a touchdown dance a bit early here. Let's see how this goes for a couple before you start pointing at the crowd. Edited October 31, 2013 by Simon Phoenix 3
ravssss Posted October 31, 2013 Posted October 31, 2013 The main thing here is that you broke up with her initially. This story is well and good and all, but the fact that you were the dumper and not the dumpee changes a lot of the perspective of the story. You did want all dumpees on here are advised to look for from their dumpers in a reconciliation -- persistent pursuit. Even though you might have felt like the dumpee, you were originally the dumper, therefore your strategy and advice doesn't really apply to the majority of this board, since most people who come on here are the ones originally dumped. If most people who come to this board did your approach (especially without any sort of NC), there would be a spike in restraining orders and hurt feelings. Also, since you did use NC, so your story isn't that much different from some of the advice that is given here. IMO NC should be used until you reach a point where you are healed and you are good either way. After that, it's up to you what you want to do. But I wouldn't represent this story as "using full contact to get her back" because a) you were originally the dumper and b) you used full contact after using No Contact. I think you are misrepresenting what happened when you describe it as such, as dumpees will see this and thing "Oh yeah, I'm going to go after my ex and talk to them every day and buy them gifts and oh yeah, they'll love me." I would emphasize the fact that you were a dumper and that you did a sizable NC much more than your full contact, because it was those two things that gave you the foundation for reconciliation first and foremost. Also, I think you might be doing a touchdown dance a bit early here. Let's see how this goes for a couple before you start pointing at the crowd. hahah that was why i felt this was jst not what many were looking for !
Author justconfused25 Posted May 31, 2014 Author Posted May 31, 2014 So you just got back together with her today? After giving her an ultimatum? I wish you the best, but can't see this ending in a happy ever after. Sounds like you put her on the spot and rather than losing you as a friend she agreed. Pressure will not build a strong commitment. Honestly it sounds like you were her emotional tampon for awhile then when you gave the ultimatum she didn't want to lose you being emotionally there for her. Give an update in 6 months, as you just got back together today, beacuse of an ultimatum, and you're offering a lot of false hope to people reading this. Again, I wish you the best. But this is a bit premature, as it sounds like she fears losing her emotional tampon more than actually wanting to be with you in a romantic sense. Hey guys, I think it's time to give you guys an update. It's been 8 months since I made this thread. Typing this as we speak, she is sleeping next to me and I couldn't be happier. We have come a long way and we are both now in what I consider at very stable and happy relationship. This bump so to speak is not to brag but to give others that were in my situation some hope. I know when it was a year ago, everyday I would log on to try and desperately find some type of happy reconcilation story. Hope this helps anyone in my position and feel free to ask me anything. 2
Simon Phoenix Posted May 31, 2014 Posted May 31, 2014 Glad it's still working. However, the fact that you were originally the dumper makes your method not applicable to most of the dumpees on the board. Either way, hope it continues well and no more ultimatums 3
somedude81 Posted May 31, 2014 Posted May 31, 2014 Glad it's still working. However, the fact that you were originally the dumper makes your method not applicable to most of the dumpees on the board. Either way, hope it continues well and no more ultimatums Yup being the dumper is a completely different situation. Frankly it's a hell of a lot easier to get somebody back when they actually want you back. He kept talking about hanging out with and all that stuff, and it just didn't make any sense to me, then when you said he was the dumper, I understood. 1
whatdreamsmaycome Posted May 31, 2014 Posted May 31, 2014 Wow... is it just me or is there a lot of "debbie downers" posting on this thread? One thing that definitely won't bring your ex back is pessimism, that's for sure. Justconfused25, thank you for sharing your story and congratulations on getting your girl back. I think sometimes these forums put too much emphasis on a certain style of doing something and do not appreciate "custom-tailored" stories like this one, but the truth is, every break up is different, so nothing is truly applicable to EVERYONE. This is a good variation of a path to success, as we've seen that strict NC isn't always a success, over and over and over again. Good luck with your relationship! Wish you the best! 2
somedude81 Posted May 31, 2014 Posted May 31, 2014 Wow... is it just me or is there a lot of "debbie downers" posting on this thread? One thing that definitely won't bring your ex back is pessimism, that's for sure.He's the one that dumped her. You can tell that the circumstances are completely different than being dumped by her right? My ex dumped me and absolutely refused to talk to me on the phone and seeing her in person was out of the question. The whole premise of getting her back with "full-contact" is ridiculous. 1
jbelle6 Posted June 2, 2014 Posted June 2, 2014 (edited) Wow... is it just me or is there a lot of "debbie downers" posting on this thread? One thing that definitely won't bring your ex back is pessimism, that's for sure. Justconfused25, thank you for sharing your story and congratulations on getting your girl back. I think sometimes these forums put too much emphasis on a certain style of doing something and do not appreciate "custom-tailored" stories like this one, but the truth is, every break up is different, so nothing is truly applicable to EVERYONE. This is a good variation of a path to success, as we've seen that strict NC isn't always a success, over and over and over again. Good luck with your relationship! Wish you the best! Well, it's more likely to get a dumpee back than it is to get a dumper back. Simple fact, they went no contact for a period of time, the dumpee went on with her life, improved herself and dated. SHE got the dumper back doing exactly what almost everyone on this site recommends. Congrats either way to the OP, no one is knocking that they are having a nice time, it's just the thread title is not factual upon closer look at the story. Telling people, especially those dumped that they can hang around full contact all the time to get an ex back when even the OP didn't do that misguides people who are desperate and hurt. Edited June 2, 2014 by jbelle6 1
Recommended Posts