Your husband is sleeping with me.

[ladydesigner]

Agreed. Forced celibacy is betrayal - I experienced it in my marriage, and only went another year or so with it before divorce. ExMM experienced it in his marriage for 10 years before having an affair. I do agree that having an affair is wrong - IF you are lying to your spouse about it. But I also know, there are a lot of WSs out there who have made it VERY clear how unhappy they are and that they are going to look elsewhere for a relationship that included intimacy - exMM did, and I know that for a fact. In an ideal world, his exW would not have used sex to get married and to have babies and only after all that admit that she HATES it, has NO need for it, and could go the rest of her life without it. She was not honest with him about who she was, so he married her under false pretenses. He thought he was getting one thing, and got a completely other thing. That, imo, makes it crazy hypocritical to then expect the other partner to honor that marriage certificate when you yourself have already decided to NOT honor it.

 

This happens more than people want to admit. As a girl, I have always been aware of the power I have when it comes to sex. Anyone who is being honest knows that women call the shots. We decide when sex is going to happen - and there isn't a woman in the world who couldn't get sex the second she wanted it, period. Men? They wish!

 

In situations like these, like my exMM had, I absolutely understand why they seek a relationship outside of their marriage - and yes, I think it's less wrong to have an affair when your partner is already checked out than it is to have an affair when your partner is still involved and active with you. I think what exMMs wife did to him was WAY worse than what he did to her. He was at least honest with her - she, on the other hand, lied and pretended until she had what she wanted and then simply - checked out. Dismissed him, his needs, the relationship, etc. She wanted the marriage, the children, the house - she's a good christian and didn't believe in children out of wedlock and she got what she wanted. Once she did? She didn't care one way or the other what he did, period. As long as she got to keep the facade, the house, the children - she didn't care at all about him, or their relationship, or even his relationship with their children. Selfish. No, not all women are like this - I'm not, but more than a few are.

 

WTHF their M just does not seem healthy at all. I know I checked out of my M at one point, but it was because WH had already checked out on me. And then he checked out on me again. I don't even know what to call that

[janedoe67]

I have to ask, though. In the eleven years this issue was lingering, was it regularly addressed? I can't imagine allowing a "hear crushing soul death" to go on for a year or two, let alone eleven.

 

 

I don't want to T/J, but I will answer. Yep. Sure did, over and over, while reading books in order to be a better wife so Iwould be "good enough" for him t touch.

 

He flat didn't want to...end of story.

 

And yet I was the only cruel one.....

 

Sorry, Autumn, I'll go away now

[ThatsJustHowIRoll]

If I recall correctly in another thread you were talking about how her WH enjoys her trying to befriend you and gets off on her being humiliated. The dynamic of this whole thing is so gross and it really sounds like some kind of sick fetish. I think you are getting off on humiliating her too. Have you ever heard of "Safe, Sane, and Consensual"? If you two are sexually aroused by humiliating and degrading women, well, okay. There are people that would accommodate your interests. But involving this wife without her knowledge is NOT consensual and it is seriously disturbing.

 

 

 

(Before I get jumped on, I 100% agree with janedoe's post on sex in marriage.)

 

I think there is something in this.

 

OP has said before he likes it rough and she likes being 'used' which is what is "so great" about sex with WS...Perhaps the BS doesn't like it, and hence the lack of desire for sex??? Whats her history before WH? Maybe there is a history there of being 'used' that has affected her sexuality? After all you have already stated that she uses sex as a weapon or tool, and you imply that really, he only married her because she got pregnant, thus relating it back to sex....And yeah, not consensual.

[ladydesigner]

I would love to ask - in these situations and on these boards - why so many posters go round in circles trying to figure out WHY the spouse (usually the BS that is withholding intimacy) is the way that she is? Why so much thought and consideration to why she is not fulfilling her part of a marital relationship? But then, absolutely NO consideration to the WSs that have affairs bc these women aren't participating in the marital relationship? Why give so much benefit of the doubt and leeway to one spouse and not the other? They are BOTH breaking the marriage vows and insinuated agreements - they are both treating their spouse unfairly? Why not the same gymnastics to figure out WHY the WS felt the need to have an affair? Why not give them the same consideration that there was perhaps something that their partner was or was not doing that made them not want to be monogamous any longer? Why is it that the spouse whitholding a real marital relationship isn't held to the same scrutiny (as in malice, selfishness, inconsideration, disrespect of their marriage and the agreement they made) standards as the WS?

 

This blows my mind every time I read here. It's so... well, hypocritical and shows exactly how men are dismissed, along with their needs and wants and happiness, in marriages and women are thought to be pillars of virtue who are allowed to do whatever they want and STILL be granted understanding and fidelity.

 

This is a really good question. In my case I would say my WH broke the Marital vows first by abandoning me after our first was born and going out every night leaving me alone to raise the baby (she was very colicky too). Then I broke them by withholding affection. Yes you are right WTHF we are both at fault for our poor ways of coping throughout our M. Then he cheated, then I cheated, then he withheld affection and cheated again with MOW.

 

What I am trying to figure out is why I feel my WH should be held to a different standard, but I can't for the life of me find it. I am going to be going back to IC again soon and this might be good for me to explore. I feel like I have put in a lot of time towards therapy and looking within myself, while my WH has done very little introspection. I often think it is his lack of holding his own self accountable that wants me to hold him to a different standard. OMG am I lost or what?

[road]

Again, she had straight up said its not HIM. She just doesn't enjoy the act.

 

He's a good looking man, she's attracted to him, like flirting and like attention but does not like having sex. She doesn't get the urge. It's not him specific.

 

 

If there are problems in a marriage it does not make it okay for an outsider to become involved. Her H is not getting enough the remedy is to work on his wife's issues, get a divorce.

 

You filling in for the wife is not right.

[threelaurels]

I would love to ask - in these situations and on these boards - why so many posters go round in circles trying to figure out WHY the spouse (usually the BS that is withholding intimacy) is the way that she is? Why so much thought and consideration to why she is not fulfilling her part of a marital relationship? But then, absolutely NO consideration to the WSs that have affairs bc these women aren't participating in the marital relationship? Why give so much benefit of the doubt and leeway to one spouse and not the other? They are BOTH breaking the marriage vows and insinuated agreements - they are both treating their spouse unfairly? Why not the same gymnastics to figure out WHY the WS felt the need to have an affair? Why not give them the same consideration that there was perhaps something that their partner was or was not doing that made them not want to be monogamous any longer? Why is it that the spouse whitholding a real marital relationship isn't held to the same scrutiny (as in malice, selfishness, inconsideration, disrespect of their marriage and the agreement they made) standards as the WS?

 

This blows my mind every time I read here. It's so... well, hypocritical and shows exactly how men are dismissed, along with their needs and wants and happiness, in marriages and women are thought to be pillars of virtue who are allowed to do whatever they want and STILL be granted understanding and fidelity.

 

The BW is OP's situation is not withholding sex from her H, so I'm not sure how your rant is relevant to the conversation. She is still having sex with her H; she just doesn't enjoy it.

[road]

No intention right now to end the affair.. OR become her close friend. Thanks.

 

 

You interact with her in social settings. Well just because she is not a close friend she is still a friend and that makes what you are doing a double betrayal.

 

You refuse to end the affair

 

Yet you say you do not like the way the affair makes you feel.

 

You are as the person that keeps on banging their head against a brick wall. That when asked why you are banging your head against the brick wall. Your response is because it feels good when I stop.

[threelaurels]

Not a rant, just an honest question. And, you might read again - she revealed that they haven't had sex in 3 weeks and that she doesn't have sex with him very often - so, they are definitely a low sex couple (and less than her H wants) which is obviously causing them issues. The fact that the post I responded to was trying to figure out why she doesn't want to have sex (it must be her husband's fault, insinuated) but gave no consideration at all that it could just be HER fault - brought up the question.

 

I suggested several reasons why the problem could lie with her a couple pages ago. She could be a lesbian. She could be asexual. She could have a medical condition. Low sex drive in older women has been such a problem for some that there is now a "female viagra" about to be put on the market. There are also several conditions associated with childbirth like postpartum depression or late-onset vaginismus that could be the issue. It could even be the result of childhood sexual abuse.

 

If the fault does indeed lie with her, the WH should be trying to go to MC or asking her to visit a doctor or a sex therapist, not exposing her to STDs that could damage her sex drive further by having an A. However, OP has no intention of stopping the A, and I doubt he will try to work on his M with her in the picture.

[velvette]

I would love to ask - in these situations and on these boards - why so many posters go round in circles trying to figure out WHY the spouse (usually the BS that is withholding intimacy) is the way that she is? Why so much thought and consideration to why she is not fulfilling her part of a marital relationship? But then, absolutely NO consideration to the WSs that have affairs bc these women aren't participating in the marital relationship? Why give so much benefit of the doubt and leeway to one spouse and not the other? They are BOTH breaking the marriage vows and insinuated agreements - they are both treating their spouse unfairly? Why not the same gymnastics to figure out WHY the WS felt the need to have an affair? Why not give them the same consideration that there was perhaps something that their partner was or was not doing that made them not want to be monogamous any longer? Why is it that the spouse whitholding a real marital relationship isn't held to the same scrutiny (as in malice, selfishness, inconsideration, disrespect of their marriage and the agreement they made) standards as the WS?

 

This blows my mind every time I read here. It's so... well, hypocritical and shows exactly how men are dismissed, along with their needs and wants and happiness, in marriages and women are thought to be pillars of virtue who are allowed to do whatever they want and STILL be granted understanding and fidelity.

 

I don't think it has to do with figuring out the BS.....more about pointing out to the MOW posting here that whatever the MM is telling her is likely not the whole story. Just like you think you know the story of your exMM marriage, but I am quite sure you do not know the whole story, especially his W version of events.

 

Plus if this is so common don't you think its odd no one ever posts about it. I have yet to see a BS post saying she hates sex and her H is cheating what should she do. Think we would have seen a few of them by now if this was a rampant issue. Especially, if as you and Autumn say these women who hate sex are running all over town talking non stop about sex.....that I find really odd and unbelievable.

[ladydesigner]

It's something I see a LOT here. This automatic asking "what is the husband doing/not doing to MAKE her not want sex?" - which to me is crazy to assume that, considering there is no information pointing to asking that? Yet, seems very few people here ever ask - what was the BS doing to MAKE their WS have an affair? If the BS can't make the other person have an affair - then the WS can't make the other person not have libido. ?

 

The OP in this case is definitely in an affair with a man who is in, at the least, a LOW sex marriage. It could actually be considered a no sex marriage if there isn't anything beyond just physical release, and it sounds like that happens only rarely - and the wife is definitely not connecting to him during that release - as she openly admits she doesn't enjoy sex (not just with him, just sex in general) and doesn't want it and only does it as some sort of martyr act. My guess is, she has NEVER been very honest with her husband about her lack of desire - and the OP even shared that this particular wife did, in fact, pretend to like it and want it long enough to get married and have a child (against the MMs wish and without his consent - and I am WELL aware of situations like that, ew).

 

If one spouse is responsible for their behaviors - then BOTH spouses should be held to that same standard. If a woman is in a relationship that she is being MADE to not want sex - why would she not, you know, "just divorce"? Like so many people here suggest that WSs do? I mean, if divorce is so easy and so fair and accessible to either partner - and I'm pretty sure it is equally accessible - why is the sexless BS not handling her business? Why is she not handling her half of the marriage contract? And, why is she not being held to the same judgment for breaking those vows and forcing celibacy - or low and emotionless and duty sex - on her spouse? Who really cares WHY, those that certainly don't care why the WS is seeking outside relationships? How is one spouse given SO much understanding and compassion when they are behaving JUST as badly - yet the other is condemned as personality disordered, malicious, selfish, etc.?

 

It's a hypocrisy that honestly astounds me when I see it - and I see it often. OP's situation is the perfect example of a selfish BS who is only a BS bc of her very own actions - yet, she is painted as a saint who "doesn't deserve" to be the BS - and her WS painted as satan who is supposed to NEVER be reactionary to the BSs behaviors - but the BS is allowed and expected to be reactionary? Wtf? lol

 

I understand what you are saying. I know I should have left before I cheated and I didn't, just withdrew emotionally like an idiot. I agree it is not fair to either party. I guess this is where MC comes in to help resolve the marital issues that were there before the A. Unfortunately after an A it is almost an impossible feat for the BS to look at themselves because they are already humiliated by the A which causes a great loss of self esteem.

 

I don't blame my WH for having his last A, I understand why it happened. It was the treatment of me post Dday that caused me to be reactionary. I know better now though.

[threelaurels]

Why is it the WSs responsibility? It's not him that has a libido issue - it's her. Why isn't she taking care of her own ****? I mean - that's crazy to me - that no matter what happens, the WS is supposed to fix it, stop it, endure it - while the BS is, doing what? Nothing? Her libido is HER problem. She knows she lied about liking and wanting sex - she is the dodgy one, not the WS. I agree that the WS should divorce her at this point - but honestly? She is selfish and hurting others for her own gain, and laughing about it and blabbing about it to damn near strangers!

 

I highly doubt it's a medical issue, but do find it interesting that so many don't place blame on the BS who is not intimately involved in their marital relationship. I guess nothing is her fault or her responsibility? Poor MM is right - who wants to have to carry another person through life bc they won't handle their own **** or carry their half of a relationship? Jeez, sounds like bliss to me, ugh... lol

 

Then what do you think the issue is? I have never hears of extreme selfishness or malice causing a low sex drive or for a person to think sex is gross.

[threelaurels]

She knows she lied about liking and wanting sex - she is the dodgy one, not the WS. I agree that the WS should divorce her at this point - but honestly? She is selfish and hurting others for her own gain, and laughing about it and blabbing about it to damn near strangers!

 

How do you reconcile this with what her WH is doing to her? Because he's doing the exact same thing, and he is just as bad, if not worse, than her.

[oldshirt]

.

 

So it was four of us last night and she starts going into how they haven't had sex for 3 weeks. How she feels a little bad for him but she just doesn't enjoy sex, and thinks he should be happy pleasuring himself..

 

 

As a married man I cannot give a blanket condoning of adultery. But if I ever overheard my wife telling this to anyone, I would seize the next opportunity that comes around.

 

If I was having an affair (which I never have) and heard her say that to my OW, I would take OW to a fancy hotel that night and give her the best loving she ever had or die trying.

 

And on the flip side, if I was having an affair with a married woman and her husband told me that about her, my only response would be, "THANK YOU!"

 

I know others here will disagree adamantly but I think you are vindicated here. If that really is her attitude towards her husband then as far as I am concerned you are welcome to him. If she finds herself the one without a chair when the music stops then too-bad, so-sad.

 

I hope you enjoy and appreciate him;)

[threelaurels]

Selfishness that she, as far as we know, pretended to like and want sex to get married and then purposely got pregnant against his will. That's the information we have - yet, you and a few others are bending over backwards to give her sainthood and explain away her issues and selfishness. There really isn't a good "excuse" - who knows why she thinks sex is gross? But, she was NOT honest with him about feeling that way - that's malicious and selfish.

 

Not to mention the fact that she doesn't care that he is suffering, at all. As I see here that many are of that mindset - no empathy for a man that is having celibacy forced on him - but so much empathy for a woman that is forcing the celibacy - so many attempts to excuse her of her behaviors and responsibilities. When she got married, she knew that the assumption is that there WOULD be a sexual relationship involved - that was her time to be honest and come clean about how she felt about it so her husband could make an informed choice regarding his marital partner. She did not - purposely kept it from him so she could get what she wanted - absolutely disregarding his needs and rights and well being.

 

She isn't the only woman to do this. If women don't want to have sex, they need to be honest about that and marry someone that is of the same mind as them. Not lie to get the guy they "want" and trick them into relationships that are going to be significantly different from they agreed on.

 

I think the problem is that the wife is malicious and selfish - some people just have a low sex drive or no sex drive - and that's fine and within normal ranges of human sexuality - BUT, she LIED about it, pretended about it - and now has a husband that is suffering because of it. In her mind, I'm sure she will be fine when they divorce (and they probably will eventually) blaming him for the entire issue - bc there are enough people in the world that do what you are doing - don't expect her to take any responsibility for her issues bc sex is considered by them (and you?) to be "not that important" or "a silly thing to focus on" or "not a need but a want" - or she will try to say he is "too sexual" or "sexually addicted" - when in reality his sexual needs are in fact very normal (and they sound to be so) - and it is actually HER that is the problem, not him.

 

I consider sex very important in a relationship, just not as important as respecting your partner's boundaries. I also don't consider sex a need. Many people go their entire lives without sex and do just fine. If going without it won't cause you to keel over and die, it's not a need.

[AutumnMoon]

If there are problems in a marriage it does not make it okay for an outsider to become involved. Her H is not getting enough the remedy is to work on his wife's issues, get a divorce.

 

You filling in for the wife is not right.

 

I'm not saying it is right.

 

Right at the moment it's working for us.. He's giving me what I'm missing emotional and physical and I'm giving him the same. It won't last forever.

[AutumnMoon]

The BW is OP's situation is not withholding sex from her H, so I'm not sure how your rant is relevant to the conversation. She is still having sex with her H; she just doesn't enjoy it.

 

She does withhold it, just not completely.. They went a span of four months earlier this year with none.. But usually it's once or sometimes twice a month.

[AutumnMoon]

You interact with her in social settings. Well just because she is not a close friend she is still a friend and that makes what you are doing a double betrayal.

 

You refuse to end the affair

 

Yet you say you do not like the way the affair makes you feel.

 

You are as the person that keeps on banging their head against a brick wall. That when asked why you are banging your head against the brick wall. Your response is because it feels good when I stop.

 

The majority of the time I feel pretty good about it and OM.. But ya of course I have conflicting feelings. I don't want to hurt anyone and I know I'm risking that so of course I feel bad at times..

 

I also feel very uncomfortable when I hear anything about him that isn't positive.. I want him to be happy.

 

I do feel like I'm banging my head against a wall.

[beach]

She does withhold it, just not completely.. They went a span of four months earlier this year with none.. But usually it's once or sometimes twice a month.

 

That you even know those details about their sex life is disgusting.

 

Your MM isn't nice... Considering he shares private info with you.

[ladydesigner]

To me, he is LESS wrong because of her treatment to him. I don't think that two wrongs make a right - and what he is doing (being dishonest, not the affair part per se) is wrong, imo - but she is MORE wrong bc of her actions - which LONG precluded his.

 

Ideally, she wouldn't have lied and married him under false pretenses. Ideally, he would have divorced her the second he realized it was false pretenses - but realistically, many of us stay LONG past when we should leave. I have empathy and understanding for that, especially when their are children involved.

 

But I don't think what he is doing is "worse" than what she is doing. In fact, just the opposite - I think that what she did and is doing is disgusting - and very selfish - and underhanded - and not that she "deserves" what he is doing - but what he is doing is understandable in the situation. What she did and is doing? What reason does she have to be doing it other than being malicious and selfish? At least his behaviors make sense - hers don't at all - other than selfishness.

 

It would be very interesting to hear her side. While I too do not agree with how the BS is handling their sex life, neither is the WS. Sometimes when these A's come to light it reawakens that spark in the BS. I wonder if that would happen if they were to have a Dday. The sex drive is a very mysterious thing that can lead to such heartbreak. It's too bad that people cannot just be nice with one another and upfront about fixing a situation, but then again I was and my requests went unheard just as my WH's did.

[threelaurels]

To me, he is LESS wrong because of her treatment to him. I don't think that two wrongs make a right - and what he is doing (being dishonest, not the affair part per se) is wrong, imo - but she is MORE wrong bc of her actions - which LONG precluded his.

 

Ideally, she wouldn't have lied and married him under false pretenses. Ideally, he would have divorced her the second he realized it was false pretenses - but realistically, many of us stay LONG past when we should leave. I have empathy and understanding for that, especially when their are children involved.

 

But I don't think what he is doing is "worse" than what she is doing. In fact, just the opposite - I think that what she did and is doing is disgusting - and very selfish - and underhanded - and not that she "deserves" what he is doing - but what he is doing is understandable in the situation. What she did and is doing? What reason does she have to be doing it other than being malicious and selfish? At least his behaviors make sense - hers don't at all - other than selfishness.

 

I'm trying to understand your logic, but I just don't get it in light of my own experiences. I "withheld" sex in my relationship. We were having sex 3x a day--so frequently that my ladybits were constantly bruished and I would bleed every time we had sex because my body couldn't handle it. Sex was very, very painful. Like being ****ed with a knife.

 

I talked to him about it. Told him how much it hurt and asked for a break. He continued to ask for sex anyway despite knowing how much it hurt me and being there when I went to the doctor (who told me not to have sex for a while). I refused. He kept persisting. I kept refusing. I was willing to get HJs and BJs, but that wasn't enough. Eventually he started drugging me with methadone and having sex with me while I was slept. When he got bored of that (or didn't feel like wasting the drugs on me), he cheated.

 

My reasons for not wanting sex were selfish. They were all about me, not him. But I am more at fault than him for creating the situation that led him to do things without my consent? He was suffering so much from the lack of sex that his actions were understandable?

[beach]

He isn't sharing with her - or at the least, VERY rarely. She is getting the details from his wife - and yes, that IS disgusting.

 

My exMM shared details with me about his former sex life with his wife - just as I have shared details with him about my former sex life with others - sometimes, it comes up. When asked, "why don't you like that?" or "what about this?" -I have had to say, "I had one partner that tried that and I didn't like it" or something like that. People in intimate relationships talk - about all sorts of things, including their past relationships. It is a good way to get to know your partner's likes and dislikes and needs and wants. Not a thing in the world wrong with it, perfectly healthy and normal. I have found those that don't talk about it do so because of jealousy issues - but a healthy relationship won't be threatened by jealousy when discussing those that came before you - as most everyone inevitably has previous relationships in which they took part in.

 

That's your perspective - I get that.

 

It never makes it right to share someone else's info without their permission... In this case = the betrayed spouse.

[ladydesigner]

That's the problem - it IS a need for some people. Just because you can survive without it physically - doesn't mean that you are going to be happy without it. I know that my exMM would have NEVER agreed to a celibate relationship - period. He has a very high drive and NEED for it - to feel whole, to feel happy, to feel fulfilled. Just because it's not a "need" for you, doesn't make it so for everyone. I "need" to read - I know people that go their whole lives without reading. I won't die from not reading - but I won't be happy.

 

There is a very good book out there called "The Five Love Languages" by Gary Chapman. I think it would be helpful to a lot of those struggling to take the test to find out what your love language is. Now that I have found my WH's Love Language: Words of Affirmation and mine: Quality Time, we have both been using this as our guide to make the other happy and so far it has been working. Both of us had 'Physical Touch' as the 2nd runner up.

 

Sorry if this was T/J. I just thought it might be helpful because I think often we do not know what our partner really NEEDS.

[Journee]

Another thing about sex is that not everyone is just driven by the need to orgasm. There is so much more in between that is a part of the whole experience for many. Some people can disconnect the heart from the genitals but many have difficulty doing so. I cannot enjoy sex without a wonderful chemistry and caring. Feeling a connection with my partner.

 

I think the need to feel that with the person you love is very strong. Men may be stereotyped that they can have sex with someone and not look back but when it's with someone they love it is a way for them to express their love physically. Nurture vs Nature.

 

I express my love in this way also. It's not just a horny race for many. I do believe withholding affection is abusive.

[Journee]

Oh girl, that hurt my heart to read. He's a selfish, criminal pig. I'm so sorry you went through that. ((()))

 

Yes! That is horrible and I am so sorry you had to experience that. Disgusting. I am so glad that you are away from that.

[oldshirt]

I'm trying to understand your logic, but I just don't get it in light of my own experiences. I "withheld" sex in my relationship. We were having sex 3x a day--so frequently that my ladybits were constantly bruished and I would bleed every time we had sex because my body couldn't handle it. Sex was very, very painful. Like being ****ed with a knife.

 

I talked to him about it. Told him how much it hurt and asked for a break. He continued to ask for sex anyway despite knowing how much it hurt me and being there when I went to the doctor (who told me not to have sex for a while). I refused. He kept persisting. I kept refusing. I was willing to get HJs and BJs, but that wasn't enough. Eventually he started drugging me with methadone and having sex with me while I was slept. When he got bored of that (or didn't feel like wasting the drugs on me), he cheated.

 

My reasons for not wanting sex were selfish. They were all about me, not him. But I am more at fault than him for creating the situation that led him to do things without my consent? He was suffering so much from the lack of sex that his actions were understandable?

 

That's an extreme case of abuse and even criminal assault perpetuated by a bad person.

 

He is someone that is incapable of a normal, healthy, mutually supportive relationship and will abuse and cheat on everyone he is involved with until they catch on to him and leave.

 

It's not really fair to compare him and your relationship to other relationships that do not involve abuse, extreme manipulation, duress and coercion.