First move literally ends in tears, and feelings have disappeared?

October 28, 2013

Hi all,

Appreciate your help on this situation (a little long!).

So I was seeing a girl I met off. Everything was pretty ordinary till we met on our 4th date (no first move yet), and she said she did not feel a spark.

5th meet

So we went out once more, and she said still no spark the day after this date. Interestingly, she says things are going too slow (which I interpret as in making a first move). The day after, she said there was some spark just as we were leaving (where I really opened up) and she felt something there etc etc and she wants more of that and said she is liking me more cos of that.

6th meet

At the same time, she suggested to go somewhere on a road trip, and in the week leading up to that, she was really open and flirty over txts and me back.

We went out to that place, and we really had that vibe/chemistry/spark/connection. I could kinda sense we were really clicking but she did not flirt. See below...

This is where the problem comes in.

I was going to go for the first move (hold her hand) but she did not make it obvious she wanted me to do this. This really bugs me. If you want me to do something, you need to give some indication. When I was ready to do this, her arms were crossed (Giving me negative signals, even though there can be reasons not in my control like she is feeling cold). But generally you have to come across as approachable, which she did not. She does not flirt, so how do I know if she likes me? She says she flirts if she likes a guy, did a bit prior to this meet over txts, then today asked what flirting is (I bet she does know).

A friend said a guys job is to make the first job but a girl's first move is to flirt to encourage the guy. This seems like such an important principle now.

If this is what happens, neither thing is harder than the other. Otherwise, doing that first move is a killer. I also read this is like a power imbalance....

She has spoken to me about perceptions and how I come across at times but it is a two way street. If she does not make herself approachable, it can also be interpreted in different ways.

After this meet, because I made no first move, I told her I liked her more.

Next 2 meets

Next meet I tried to make a move but again no chance to hold hands due to arms crossed etc.

Meet after, same and there was no "spark" etc.

It's bad luck (that I could not hold her hand) I feel and really harsh that a promising relationship (at least promising at one stage) can't survive this.

Relationship in some loose sense of the word...

Most recent meet

I go for her hand as the vibe is good and we are having fun and she moves away. I feel crap at the time. In the car, I talk about it and she says "the moment has gone" (it's like a very small window I can capitalise on the spark and very harsh that I get no hint or anything) and she does not want to lead me on. We talk about a number of things but bottom line is, her feelings have gone. I don't understand how they can just disappear (and nor does she).

If it's a friendzone thing I at least need some warning or hint from her. If she likes me or does not like me, she is indifferent.

The only plausable explanation is that it's hormones (I read it somewhere else). She is a bit high maintenance or high with expectations I feel.

She said at the 5th meet, she had feelings at that time. I felt like you should have been able to tell me because I told you (And you were like why you scared to say that?). If she told me, it'd boost my confidence (and also the honesty in practise would help), and I'd be more proactive to recriprocate. If a girl told me a few times they liked me, I'd be comfortable to say so back. I feel we are so caught up (or she is) in keeping things special and spontaneous that we cannot discuss how we feel (nor do we indicate it in anyway) that the chance would go. All she will say now is she does't know or it's in the past (or a textbook friendzone comment - "It's over now").

We talk some more next day and it's just about insecurities (I'm like you can't date or start a rship with major insecurities) and I am also like the more I look, the more flaws I find in "us" (communication etc). I discussed expectations of the break like trying to clear insecurities because I think the y prevent a relationship from blossoming. Don't know if that will happen. We are not even serious and we are on a break.... Only thing I can see that might help right now though.

Edited October 28, 2013 by Alpha11

October 28, 2013

What are you wasting your time for here? 8 dates and you haven't held the girls hand? She was honest all along saying there was no spark. You're a friend at best.

Hopefully you haven't been paying for these "dates".

October 28, 2013

What are you wasting your time for here? 8 dates and you haven't held the girls hand? She was honest all along saying there was no spark. You're a friend at best.

Hopefully you haven't been paying for these "dates".

Thing is, the spark is there at times?

October 28, 2013

Funny that your user name is "Alpha"... a guy DOES need to take the lead. I think you were too hesitant/afraid. Use this experience as a lesson for next time. Be a true man and let this one go, she isn't interested. It is over/done with.

October 28, 2013

Most girls hate wet noodles. What I mean is.... they like confident men who shows interest. If you can't hold a girl's hand after 2nd date, you are showing lack of chemistry/interest. A girl would not want a man so passive. It's almost weak if you can't even show you are interested. Unless you are 14 years old, you should be kissing her or having sex with her. I'm surprised she still wanted to meet with you, but then again, she might think it's just friends. Just so you know, girls lose interest when I guy moves too slow. It's a fact, and a lesson I learned when I was in college.

October 28, 2013

Thing is, the spark is there at times?

Is the spark actually there for the two of you? Or do you just like her enough that you are ''imagining the spark'' when in reality you might be the only one feeling it.

I'm not trying to be a dick, I've been down this road before myself. I'm just saying after that many dates...Alot more should be happening if there really is a spark between the two of you.

In my experience by the 3rd maybe 4th date we are usually already having sex. You've gone on what? 8 dates and haven't even held her hand? Maybe you should just accept a friendship with her and start pursuing other girls.

If she's already stated that ''there's no spark'' then believe me...She's not feeling the same way you are. What you see as a potential relationship, she's seeing as nothing more than a friendship.

Edited October 28, 2013 by MercuryMorrison1

October 28, 2013

I understand that, but surely to act you need some signal?

Surely I thought she'd understand that we are both inexperienced and nervous etc so it'd take time...

October 28, 2013

Is the spark actually there for the two of you? Or do you just like her enough that you are ''imagining the spark'' when in reality you might be the only one feeling it.

I'm not trying to be a dick, I've been down this road before myself. I'm just saying after that many dates...Alot more should be happening if there really is a spark between the two of you.

In my experience by the 3rd maybe 4th date we are usually already having sex. You've gone on what? 8 dates and haven't even held her hand? Maybe you should just accept a friendship with her and start pursuing other girls.

If she's already stated that ''there's no spark'' then believe me...She's not feeling the same way you are. What you see as a potential relationship, she's seeing as nothing more than a friendship.

The thing, she said it's there for 2 meets but wants it there for every single meet up (which is understandable).

Yeah a lot more should be happening. It's only now I have that confidence. But it's a two way street. Even when she says she does like me, I get no indication unless I say it. Eg we go out, I say "I like you more after today" and she says "I like you too" but she would never be more forthcoming with feelings than that. Then when I try to make a move it's bad luck because of her hand is etc. Can't blame me for that. On top of that, she doesn't want to be asked because it ruins the spontaniety (sp?).

She is really insecure and confused about whether she likes me and personal things so I do think she is not relationship material. I didn't want to make a first move without confidence, she didn't want to say anything because she wanted me to take initiative - isn't it enough initiative I organise everything? It's a two way street as I said, which I have not sensed it is.

October 28, 2013

Phantom is on the right track. A girl wants to know that the guy likes her. EIGHT dates to hold her hand? You are coming across as way too timid.

You don't have to wait for a girl to give you some signal, and you don't have to sit around waiting for her to uncross her arms. There are lots of ways to move forward other than holding her hand. Simply get closer to her when you are talking, so that you are in her personal space. Put your hand on her lower back when you are walking through doors or through a crowd or when it is natural to do so. Put your arm around her shoulder and rub her arm for a moment.

I get that it sucks that you have to take all the risk of making the move, but you simply HAVE to do it, or any feeling of spark is going to die off.

October 28, 2013

Phantom is on the right track. A girl wants to know that the guy likes her. EIGHT dates to hold her hand? You are coming across as way too timid.

You don't have to wait for a girl to give you some signal, and you don't have to sit around waiting for her to uncross her arms. There are lots of ways to move forward other than holding her hand. Simply get closer to her when you are talking, so that you are in her personal space. Put your hand on her lower back when you are walking through doors or through a crowd or when it is natural to do so. Put your arm around her shoulder and rub her arm for a moment.

I get that it sucks that you have to take all the risk of making the move, but you simply HAVE to do it, or any feeling of spark is going to die off.

Yeah that is all true. I should have that confidence to begin with.

It just seems so harsh that one misunderstanding and it kills everything.

Is there any hope from here? Or with this break?

October 28, 2013

Yeah that is all true. I should have that confidence to begin with.

It just seems so harsh that one misunderstanding and it kills everything.

Is there any hope from here? Or with this break?

Yeah, dating is very very harsh. You have to get to a place where you don't take rejection personally. You have to remember that any girl who rejects you isn't right for you in the first place. You have to make moves soon enough that you don't become emotionally invested in them, rather than waiting until you have feelings and it hurts to be rejected.

I don't know if there is hope or not. You may be able to talk to her and tell her that you've been really nervous around her but you like her a lot and want to try, and that may be all she needs to give you a chance. But she may have already "friendzoned" you and written you off.

You can try. You have nothing to lose. But if you talk to her and she seems AT ALL open to the possibility of trying again, you gotta get in there and sweep her off her feet fast. You have to kiss her and take her breath away.

October 28, 2013

Yeah, dating is very very harsh. You have to get to a place where you don't take rejection personally. You have to remember that any girl who rejects you isn't right for you in the first place. You have to make moves soon enough that you don't become emotionally invested in them, rather than waiting until you have feelings and it hurts to be rejected.

I don't know if there is hope or not. You may be able to talk to her and tell her that you've been really nervous around her but you like her a lot and want to try, and that may be all she needs to give you a chance. But she may have already "friendzoned" you and written you off.

You can try. You have nothing to lose. But if you talk to her and she seems AT ALL open to the possibility of trying again, you gotta get in there and sweep her off her feet fast. You have to kiss her and take her breath away.

This is what is confusing...

She says she does not know if she friendzoned me, but she did naturally mention it after the hand holding thing.

But then she is up for meeting again but with no expectations. We also don't put a label on it when we do meet and we did mention as friends but then we had a few times when she really felt something.

Like I said, she is really insecure and confused and has a lot of emotional baggage.

Edited October 28, 2013 by Alpha11

October 28, 2013

This is what is confusing...

She says she does not know if she friendzoned me, but she did naturally mention it after the hand holding thing.

But then she is up for meeting again but with no expectations. We also don't put a label on it when we do meet and we did mention as friends but then we had a few times when she really felt something.

You can't over-analyze everything. Analyzing is paralyzing. She is up for meeting again, so meet her. Relax and have fun. DO NOT watch for crossed arms or analyze her every word and action. Go with your gut feeling and live in the moment. Be honest and open. Compliment her (natural compliments, not forced). Listen to her. Ask her questions and treat her like she's interesting. Smile. Be spontaneous. Laugh. Get into her personal space. Open doors for her. And when that moment that would be perfect for a kiss comes, kiss her.

It may not go your way, but the only way it MIGHT go your way is if you go for it.

October 28, 2013

Like I said, she is really insecure and confused and has a lot of emotional baggage.

This is all the more reason to be the strong confident man, making the decision for her.

If she is insecure and scared, she needs a strong shoulder. An umbrella to protect her from the rain. A strong arm to hold her up.

You gotta do the ol' "man up" thing here if you have a shot at all.

October 28, 2013

Phantom is on the right track. A girl wants to know that the guy likes her. EIGHT dates to hold her hand? You are coming across as way too timid.

I agree his is coming off as too passive, but at the same time it should be a two way street. If a guy takes a girl out on 8 dates and tells her he likes her, she can't get upset if he makes a move on her or she starts ignoring him and claim 'I didn't know he liked me'. Guys do not waste time taking out girls just to have a new friend and have no sexual interest in. If she was really into him, she should show it too imo. Arms crossed a lot of the time, zero flirting, gives feedback after dates that there is no spark, pulls away when he goes for her hand and getting the 'the moment has gone' line when he tries to make a move is hardly inspiring him to get passionate over her enthusiasm. Dating should be fun and natural. I guess he should go for broke on the 9th date, and if he doesn't get a good outcome then write this off, and learn from it not to take so long to get physical in future. Really though, if on date 5 the girl or guy is still telling you there is no spark/chemistry then its pretty much a write off.

October 28, 2013

All i read is "she says", "she tells me", "she said the moment was gone" man, last time a kissed a girl, i looked her in the eyes and told her "i know you like me, so whats, your excuse for not kissing me?" I didnt even let her answer, i just kissed her right away.

You dont need her to tell you anything, you just need to judge the moment, spice up the mood, but only if she is into you. She already told you that there is no spark, and you just look like a puppy.

October 29, 2013

Ok so the latest is, we will meet and try again in a few months time, and for now remain as friends and chat over phone/txt/etc.

She has made me more confident and I am hoping it rubs off on her. I think if she can't even be happy in herself she can't be in a r-ship?

She couldn't even tell me she liked me after I told her several times I liked her. That's a major communication issue. If a girl says several times she likes me, that'd open me up to say the same to her.

I agree I am being passive in the past, but now with what we've agreed at the top I am being assertive but not pushy (considerate, rather).

The thing about the spark is it comes and goes. That was even without any flirting or physical contact. What's up with that? I think now with my confidence and assertiveness, it will be better to see next time (and if she can sort out whatever's on her mind).

I admit my mistakes here, but yeah it's a two way street.

pteromom - when you say make the decision for her, which decision do you mean in specific?

Edited October 29, 2013 by Alpha11

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