Forgiveness

[waterwoman]

Hi.

 

As some of you know H and I are in reconcilition and I keep posting cheery little messages about our progress - and for the most part it is all good, I am enjoying our marriage and newly rediscovered connection. But.... ..although I truly feel that I have forgiven this man, the one who has been sorry and remorseful and worked so hard to win me back there is another man who I am struggling to forgive. The man who was so callous to me during the A, who couldn’t give a stuff about me when I was struggling with the worst bout of depression I had ever have, the one who was so distant from me that I didn’t feel safe telling him about my desire to chuck myself over a bridge one Jan afternoon, the one who sympathised and comforted his OW about her problems while I was in my own quiet hell, the one who didn’t support me while I pulled myself up out of my depression, the one who texted endlessly to her, the one who texted ‘I love everything about you’ to her, the one who told me he was unsure he wanted to be with me anymore during that first 24 hours when I was so confused and hurting and needed him so badly. Him, I don’t think I can forgive. Sometimes the rage I still feel towards him bubbles up in my throat like vomit.

 

Is that sort of partial forgiveness OK? Because I have a feeling until I can forget, I can’t completely forgive. Maybe I never will. Does anyone still feel this years after the event? is it just one of those things you have to learn to live with ?

[velvette]

Hi.

 

As some of you know H and I are in reconcilition and I keep posting cheery little messages about our progress - and for the most part it is all good, I am enjoying our marriage and newly rediscovered connection. But.... ..although I truly feel that I have forgiven this man, the one who has been sorry and remorseful and worked so hard to win me back there is another man who I am struggling to forgive. The man who was so callous to me during the A, who couldn’t give a stuff about me when I was struggling with the worst bout of depression I had ever have, the one who was so distant from me that I didn’t feel safe telling him about my desire to chuck myself over a bridge one Jan afternoon, the one who sympathised and comforted his OW about her problems while I was in my own quiet hell, the one who didn’t support me while I pulled myself up out of my depression, the one who texted endlessly to her, the one who texted ‘I love everything about you’ to her, the one who told me he was unsure he wanted to be with me anymore during that first 24 hours when I was so confused and hurting and needed him so badly. Him, I don’t think I can forgive. Sometimes the rage I still feel towards him bubbles up in my throat like vomit.

 

Is that sort of partial forgiveness OK? Because I have a feeling until I can forget, I can’t completely forgive. Maybe I never will. Does anyone still feel this years after the event? is it just one of those things you have to learn to live with ?

 

I'm not sure I have a good answer. First, forgiveness means different things depending on who you ask. And, the whole idea that you need to forgive is sort of a recent pop psych thing anyway. According to the law, you "forgive" adultery by remaining with your spouse.

 

On the other hand, what to do with those feelings when they pop up. Stuffing them down is not good.....sometimes though setting them aside is ok imo. I guess more importantly is what are they telling you?

 

What is the thought behind/underlying the feeling. There is always thought preceding feeling. Sometimes its barely conscious or so fleeting that you really have to work to capture it. That's what I would look at.

[Betrayed&Stayed]

My wife and I have been talking about this recently. My view is that even though I have forgiven her, forgiveness does not mean that the hurt goes away. Over time the hurt dissipates, but it's there.

 

I have felt that from her perspective that my forgiveness is not forgiving enough. My grace is not gracious enough.

 

What she did broke me in every sense of brokenness. Like Humpty Dumpty: All the king's horses and all the king's men couldn't put Humpty together again.

 

I feel that there are some aspects of my hurt that will never fully recover. That is the new normal that I have learned to live with.

[Journee]

Well we are years out from H's first cheating on me but I'm not sure if my perspective is what you want. My H is a serial cheater. NO matter the state of the relationship or the goings on in our lives together. Makes no difference. So even if I make progress from one incident the discovery of the next sets me back.

 

H and I had a very long talk last night into this morning. I cannot forgive if we are together. I am not capable of it as it just keeps happening. I do feel that I could move past this and forgive if we were no longer together. It wouldn't be my problem anymore worrying or feeling insecure with him. It wouldn't be a concern to forgive in order to continue a M.

 

As much as it hurts to think of H with someone else.....I have already had to think of him sexually and emotionally involved with other women. I have already jumped that hurdle.

 

I really just need to forgive myself for all the beatings I gave myself emotionally wondering what's wrong with me. For teaching a man that his cheating isn't a deal breaker and it has become almost a habit of his now. I will never trust him again or any man in my future that cheats. I will forgive H in time but I don't think I can while we are together. It's maddening.

 

 

I think it's possible to forgive fully but will the gnawing in the back of one's mind ever really go away? Knowing what depths your (general) partner will go in order to deceive. Does that ever go away?

 

Anyway, you all sound like you are on a good path. Not every situation is the same and I am glad that you are not dealing with a repeat offender. I think you all will get there in time.

[drifter777]

Is that sort of partial forgiveness OK? Because I have a feeling until I can forget, I can’t completely forgive. Maybe I never will. Does anyone still feel this years after the event? is it just one of those things you have to learn to live with ?

It better be ok because this is probably as good as its going to get for you, me, and most BS's. You can't change what happened, he can't change what happened, and your relationship is scarred forever. A scar isn't an open wound so you may be able to live with it, but it will be a reminder of what happened and to never allow yourself to be completely vulnerable to your WS - or anyone - ever again.

[drifter777]

I think it's possible to forgive fully but will the gnawing in the back of one's mind ever really go away? Knowing what depths your (general) partner will go in order to deceive. Does that ever go away?

 

Anyway, you all sound like you are on a good path. Not every situation is the same and I am glad that you are not dealing with a repeat offender. I think you all will get there in time.

What do you mean by this? All posts to this point express how the BS has decided - at least for now - to accept that at least some of the anger and hurt will probably never go away. Really no different that what you are feeling. I don't consider this a good path, just the realistic path.

[Journee]

What do you mean by this? All posts to this point express how the BS has decided - at least for now - to accept that at least some of the anger and hurt will probably never go away. Really no different that what you are feeling. I don't consider this a good path, just the realistic path.

 

I guess I feel a little envious of those whose outlook is positive. Mine is not. I cannot fathom a positive outcome right now. So, for WW to feel like she has forgiven the H her man is now seems better than the feeling I have toward mine. It just sounds like she is much closer to at the very least acceptance.

 

I dunno Drifter, I'm dying right now inside. I have no hope but don't want to snatch another's away.

[yellowmaverick]

I guess I feel a little envious of those whose outlook is positive. Mine is not. I cannot fathom a positive outcome right now. So, for WW to feel like she has forgiven the H her man is now seems better than the feeling I have toward mine. It just sounds like she is much closer to at the very least acceptance.

 

I dunno Drifter, I'm dying right now inside. I have no hope but don't want to snatch another's away.

 

(((Journee))). I am so sorry for your sadness.

[compulsivedancer]

I guess I feel a little envious of those whose outlook is positive. Mine is not. I cannot fathom a positive outcome right now. So, for WW to feel like she has forgiven the H her man is now seems better than the feeling I have toward mine. It just sounds like she is much closer to at the very least acceptance.

 

I dunno Drifter, I'm dying right now inside. I have no hope but don't want to snatch another's away.

Journee, I just want to give you a big hug. So many of your posts make me feel that way. Does your last post mean that you've come to a decision, or is it more expressing the feeling? I really hope things get better for you; it sounds like you deserve it.

[compulsivedancer]

Waterwoman, I think this is very much how H feels about me these days. He loves who I'm becoming, but literally thinks of who I was (less than a year ago!) as a different person. He calls this our second marriage. It's sad to me that he thinks our first 8 years together were all a sham. From my perspective, they weren't.

Edited October 27, 2013 by compulsivedancer

[Betterthanthis13]

Waterwoman, I think this is very much how H feels about me these days. He loves who I'm becoming, but literally thinks of who I was (less than a year ago!) as a different person. He calls this our second marriage. It's sad to me that he thinks our first 8 years together were all a sham. From my perspective, they weren't.

 

@CD- I actually thought of the dynamic in your R when I read this post, it does seem similar. I don't know what I can contribute to this thread because I am in a totally different situation where I am no longer in contact with my ex. The one thing I can say is that I know for a fact that my ex is carrying on with his lying and underground sexual activities with the current people in his life, which is very dissimilar to a remorseful fWS in R... So @WW, maybe it's not so much that they are 2 different men, but he is one man that learned something the hard way? Meaning, you aren't just forgiving the "new" man, but the whole man in his entirety? I don't know if that is helpful or not, but from my perspective I am not focused on forgiving my ex, just not caring- which has become extremely easy with NC. I have no idea what it would be like if he was a sincerely remorseful person since he is not. Since you do care, and he is remorseful, what do you think about the possibility of forgiving the whole person without compartmentalizing him into two entities?

[Journee]

Journee, I just want to give you a big hug. So many of your posts make me feel that way. Does your last post mean that you've come to a decision, or is it more expressing the feeling? I really hope things get better for you; it sounds like you deserve it.

 

Thank you for the hugs. I need them

 

I don't want to thread jack but I told my husband today that I couldn't do it anymore.

 

Thank you for being so kind.

[compulsivedancer]

If drifter is right. And what he says/feels is true for all BSs. I may as well hand my H my rings, pack my bags and wish him well in finding a woman who did not cheat. That would be the far kinder action then putting him through a lifetime where he will always doubt me, be reminded of my not even three month fling, and really just be pretending to enjoy life with me. I will always be a huge ugly scar in his life and he deserves far better than me.

 

One thing that BSs also remind us of, is that a lot of healing is required whether they stay with the WS or divorce. Leaving doesn't necessarily make it better, depending on the scenario. If you're both interested in staying, and you both want to do the work, then stay and see where it takes you.

 

Some BSs on here say that they've had pretty successful Rs. Not that the scar isn't still there, but that the marriage is good enough to keep and appreciate, scars and all.

[Betrayed&Stayed]

Waterwoman, I think this is very much how H feels about me these days. He loves who I'm becoming, but literally thinks of who I was (less than a year ago!) as a different person. He calls this our second marriage. It's sad to me that he thinks our first 8 years together were all a sham. From my perspective, they weren't.

 

Not to threadjack, but the "second marriage" is how I see our R. The first marriage died a long time ago. I spent nearly 3 years grieving that loss. I choose to start over in a second marriage. It was my decision to start over with my wife instead of a new woman.

 

My situation is bit different because my wife waited 8 years before coming clean. For me, all of that (10 yrs total) was a sham. My wife feels differently (like you), but to me I can't distinguish the lies from the truth, therefore it is all tainted. No wedding pictures on display. New anniversary date. I even removed the engraving from my ring.

 

The only way I could move forward was to let the first marriage die. At this point it is easy for me not to even think about it. I focus on the here and now. I try my best to not let the past steal today's happiness.

[Journee]

Yeah but wouldn't it be better to meet someone new who has never put a knife in your back? And it has been stated many times that not seeing the cheater everytime you turn around can speed up the healing process.

 

I will not stay in a marriage that will alwys have my infidelity hanging over it. My H didn't deserve to be cheated on and he most certainly could do better than me.

 

So now I just need to figure out if there really is hope.

 

 

Please don't base your M off of those on this site alone. They are all so different and the BS and WS are just as individual. Just because one person has lost hope does not mean that all should do the same.

 

I think you know the ups and downs that can come with all of this and it is very confusing for all involved. Don't decide for your BH what he wants or needs if all he wants and needs is you in his corner.

 

I am very much in love with my H and thoroughly confused. I hope that my posts today or recently have not added to/made you feel worse about your own situation.

[compulsivedancer]

Don't decide for your BH what he wants or needs if all he wants and needs is you in his corner.

 

^this.

 

(10 characters)

[waterwoman]

Thanks everyone.

 

Journee, I am so sorry xxx

 

Coolit, I agree that it would be ideal if I could forgive and forget, but I don't know if I can. I have done the best I can so far. I think compassion and understanding is needed on both sides.

 

I read in another site that forgiveness is giving up the desire to punish. I have NO desire to punish my h. I know he feels shame and remorse, and his own pain fir what he did to me. And by punishing him now I hurt the good man I am with now, not the selfish callous bastard he was during that time. So it's pointless anyway. Like he's a stand-in for someone else.

 

My old marriage was good good good for many years. It's a shame to have to discard it all ... but it's that - cut out the good along with the bad and start again - or continue a marriage with a nasty festering sore in its heart. What an utter tosser he was. What a stupid, short-sighted, selfish idiot.

[dichotomy]

Hi.

 

As some of you know H and I are in reconcilition and I keep posting cheery little messages about our progress - and for the most part it is all good, I am enjoying our marriage and newly rediscovered connection. But.... ..although I truly feel that I have forgiven this man, the one who has been sorry and remorseful and worked so hard to win me back there is another man who I am struggling to forgive. The man who was so callous to me during the A, who couldn’t give a stuff about me when I was struggling with the worst bout of depression I had ever have, the one who was so distant from me that I didn’t feel safe telling him about my desire to chuck myself over a bridge one Jan afternoon, the one who sympathised and comforted his OW about her problems while I was in my own quiet hell, the one who didn’t support me while I pulled myself up out of my depression, the one who texted endlessly to her, the one who texted ‘I love everything about you’ to her, the one who told me he was unsure he wanted to be with me anymore during that first 24 hours when I was so confused and hurting and needed him so badly. Him, I don’t think I can forgive. Sometimes the rage I still feel towards him bubbles up in my throat like vomit.

 

Is that sort of partial forgiveness OK? Because I have a feeling until I can forget, I can’t completely forgive. Maybe I never will. Does anyone still feel this years after the event? is it just one of those things you have to learn to live with ?

 

Ah ha... yes the dual spouse - evil twin or something. Who was THAT person versus this one? Who did I marry, who am I married to now? Phuk me - how much time have I spent on this concept.

 

I can only say some of my forgiveness is based on .....the temporary mental health crisis that was "that other woman". It is easier I suppose to forgive the mentally ill.

Edited October 28, 2013 by dichotomy

[Steen719]

Thanks everyone.

 

Journee, I am so sorry xxx

 

Coolit, I agree that it would be ideal if I could forgive and forget, but I don't know if I can. I have done the best I can so far. I think compassion and understanding is needed on both sides.

 

I read in another site that forgiveness is giving up the desire to punish. I have NO desire to punish my h. I know he feels shame and remorse, and his own pain fir what he did to me. And by punishing him now I hurt the good man I am with now, not the selfish callous bastard he was during that time. So it's pointless anyway. Like he's a stand-in for someone else.

 

My old marriage was good good good for many years. It's a shame to have to discard it all ... but it's that - cut out the good along with the bad and start again - or continue a marriage with a nasty festering sore in its heart. What an utter tosser he was. What a stupid, short-sighted, selfish idiot.

 

The one quote about forgiveness that I agree with is attributed to Lily Tomlin and what she said about forgiveness (not sure if she was the originator): "Forgiveness means giving up all hope for a better past."

 

 

In my case, I left, but it still applied. Those of us who leave still have to forgive to move forward.

 

 

There are some posters here who have reconciled and are very happy - Spark and Seren are two that come to mind. One of the problems here (LS) is that we don't see so many and so we don't feel as much optimism as we might otherwise. However, my decision to leave was totally based on me and the realization that I would never feel the same for him.

 

 

Good luck.

[OpenBook]

..although I truly feel that I have forgiven this man, the one who has been sorry and remorseful and worked so hard to win me back there is another man who I am struggling to forgive. The man who was so callous to me during the A,...

 

I heard that. That must be a really tough thing to deal with. Hard to believe it's the same person.

 

After my father died, my Mom said to me, "You never really know another person." And this coming out of a happy, close-knit 54 years of marriage with no infidelity to my knowledge.

 

So you're not the only one!

[katielee]

if forgiveness is not punishing the other person well, is bringing up the past and telling them how much it still hurts punishment?

 

I did last night. He said he's already answered these questions, pointed them back to me and asked why I always had to pick a fight. The word "victim" was thrown in there...

 

There doesn't have to be bitterness and anger. But how does one let go of the resentment of being put in this position? A person is betrayed and then has to be uncomfortable with triggers, seeing the OP, remembering the anguish. If you forgive, does that still happen?

 

Seems to me forgiveness is giving all this up...

[Betterthanthis13]

Yeah but wouldn't it be better to meet someone new who has never put a knife in your back? And it has been stated many times that not seeing the cheater everytime you turn around can speed up the healing process.

 

I will not stay in a marriage that will alwys have my infidelity hanging over it. My H didn't deserve to be cheated on and he most certainly could do better than me.

 

So now I just need to figure out if there really is hope.

 

There isn't a one size fits all solution to infidelity. There's no guarantee that if a couple splits up that either one of them will meet someone else, and if they do, there's no guarantee that their new partner won't do anything stupid or hurtful to them in the future. People aren't interchangeable, and if you and your H have a bond that is capable of surviving infidelity, then I think it's worth it for both WS and BS to put in the hard work and reconcile.

 

Obviously nobody in their right mind wants their spouse to cheat on them, but the past can't be unwritten, it just is what it is. Forgiveness comes to different people at different times and in different ways. Some people don't seem to have the ability to forgive and move past cheating whether they stay or go- think of how many people who got cheated on bring all the neuroses they developed from being betrayed into their next relationship and drive their new partner batty with their insecurity and jealosy and constant need for reassurance. Life is complicated.

[Spark1111]

WW, I don't think you ever come to a place of forgetting such a painful devastation as infidelity.

 

That would take a lobotomy, IMO.

 

But I believe it is possible to get to a place of indifference where the memory no longer triggers the pain of it....where the good so far outweighs the bad...and in time it just fades because your life is richer and filled with happiness and promise.

 

we all grow wiser, heal, and have gratitude in our hearts for what is NOW.

 

I did not cause it, could not control it, cannot change it back or wish it away.

 

Yes, that bell cannot be unrung. But through education, communication, introspection, good memories and TIME...it stops ringing daily.

[janedoe67]

I am not sure which person first connected the words "forgive" and "forget." That person wasn't very bright. Our brains are wired to remember bg things, and an A is a BIG thing.

 

I think forgiveness is a process, not an event, and I don't think it is linear or "once and for all." I think we can say we have forgiven when we can see the person as they are today, we do not define today by yesterday, and we have chosen to let go of the really heavy weight that keeping it on the front burner creates. I have a big scar from a surgery that was supposed to be routine but got complicated. The pain lasted awhile. When I take a shower I can see the scar. In fact, this morning I looked at it and thought (boy, THAT was no fun at ALL). But I don't think about it in my day to day life. I don't go through my day thinking about surgery or pulling up my shirt from time to time to remind myself the scar is there.

 

That to me is more what forgiveness looks like.

[drifter777]

if forgiveness is not punishing the other person well, is bringing up the past and telling them how much it still hurts punishment?

 

I did last night. He said he's already answered these questions, pointed them back to me and asked why I always had to pick a fight. The word "victim" was thrown in there...

 

There doesn't have to be bitterness and anger. But how does one let go of the resentment of being put in this position? A person is betrayed and then has to be uncomfortable with triggers, seeing the OP, remembering the anguish. If you forgive, does that still happen?

 

Seems to me forgiveness is giving all this up...

To bring up his cheating during every argument and throw it in his face to grab the moral high ground is nothing short of abuse. Assuming you are not doing that, he must expect to help you though the triggers & bad times as much as he possibly can. If he is not clear on this then you should get into marriage counseling and start learning how to communicate after infidelity.

 

I recommend that you read "How Can I Forgive You?" by Janis Abrahms Spring. This book was a huge eye-opener for me as it directly addressed what forgiveness meant to me. It talks about the "cheap forgiveness" that many BS's offer early on after d-day in an attempt to put the whole ugly mess behind them. This is a form of denial that never works for long but it can be effective in protecting your psyche in the short term. True forgiveness involves the betrayer earning it by deeds and actions in an attempt to prove they are truly sorry and willing to do whatever they have to do in order to make up for what they did.

 

I think ever WS should read this book and if they don't think they can do what is necessary to earn forgiveness then don't even start the reconciliation process. True forgiveness is not a gift bestowed on the cheater, it is a process that the cheater must earn.