Author Babolat Posted October 25, 2013 Author Posted October 25, 2013 I just think people are way too hung up on labels, and putting people into one category at a time. This whole "you're not a friend if you feel this or that" argument is just ridiculous. Being a friend means having shared interests and experiences, an emotional connection (including love), a certain degree of loyalty, trust, being someone's support system and moral reflection/compass, etc. Add "I want to **** you" or "I would like to date you" to that, and those other things can still remain. Therefore, I believe friendship can exist regardless of feelings, affections, etc. You don't magically stop being a friend just because you'd like to be more. Unless you yourself choose not to be a friend because of that situation. Also, interestingly enough: Word History: A friend is a lover, literally. The relationship between Latin amcus "friend" and am "I love" is clear, as is the relationship between Greek philos "friend" and phile "I love." In English, though, we have to go back a millennium before we see the verb related to friend. At that time, frond, the Old English word for "friend," was simply the present participle of the verb fron, "to love." The Germanic root behind this verb is *fr-, which meant "to like, love, be friendly to." Closely linked to these concepts is that of "peace," and in fact Germanic made a noun from this root, *frithu-, meaning exactly that. Ultimately descended from this noun are the personal names Frederick, "peaceful ruler," and Siegfried, "victory peace." The root also shows up in the name of the Germanic deity Frigg, the goddess of love, who lives on today in the word Friday, "day of Frigg," from an ancient translation of Latin Veneris dis, "day of Venus." Good points, and I guess, in retrospect, I am not trying to label people. More questioning their motives or intent when entering a male/female friendship. And for those, male or female, who know the other person has other interests/intent/motives (and still wants to be friends), they define/draw boundaries, the other person somehow communicates to them (flirts, actions, behaviors. comments, etc) even though they are aware of the boundary, they would cross it given the chance, if they continue to call that an equal/balanced friendship, I think they are fooling themselves. Especially if they know it, enjoy the attention or derive something from the attention.
hotpotato Posted October 25, 2013 Posted October 25, 2013 Babolat, Youre right. A lot of it is about motives and intentions. For example, if a guy says hes my friend then starts making sexual innuendo to me (happens everytime) hes not my friend. I dont think guard understands how frustrating it is for someone to behave as your friend then push for more. Its like they were being phoney and hiding their true motives all along. Its very frustrating to try to be friends with someone when they are inviting you over for sex, ogling you, etc. That is not a friend. Most men orbiting have these feelings Iin there somewhere they just hide it better. At least they do for awhile. If I wanted a guy to profess his love or atrraction to me. I would date. 1
hotpotato Posted October 25, 2013 Posted October 25, 2013 Good points, and I guess, in retrospect, I am not trying to label people. More questioning their motives or intent when entering a male/female friendship. And for those, male or female, who know the other person has other interests/intent/motives (and still wants to be friends), they define/draw boundaries, the other person somehow communicates to them (flirts, actions, behaviors. comments, etc) even though they are aware of the boundary, they would cross it given the chance, if they continue to call that an equal/balanced friendship, I think they are fooling themselves. Especially if they know it, enjoy the attention or derive something from the attention. Right. The relationship is very unequal because of the ubrequited feelings.
NoMoreJerks Posted October 25, 2013 Posted October 25, 2013 I have male friends but not very close ones. Most of them have not tried to sleep with me, but one in particular has. He also has tried to sleep with just about everyone else at work, so if I ever became attracted to him, having anything remotely sexual with him would've been GROSS. Besides,it's a big turnoff when a guy can't keep it in his pants and has to have sex with all the chicks he knows. I have a friend who I feel at the moment is trying his luck on me. Showing closeness, and trying to sleep with me or something. Not making any extra effort to date me, of course. God forbid. If I go out with him for dinner or coffee, we each pay our own way, but I intend to keep it strictly friendly, nothing romantic or sexual. He can dream on. I hesitate to get romantically or sexually involved with co-workers anyway, let alone someone who isn't even showing many signs of interest. I've decided to take it at face value: if a guy does not do more than text/ask me out to coffee/doesn't even offer to pay for my drink/dinner (I even do that with female and male friends every now and then), then his interest level is either strictly friendly or purely sexual. So I stay away or make it really formal and ignore/avoid him for the most part at work. This is what I started doing with that male friend from work, who I sense wants to sleep with me.
hotpotato Posted October 25, 2013 Posted October 25, 2013 I just think people are way too hung up on labels, and putting people into one category at a time. This whole "you're not a friend if you feel this or that" argument is just ridiculous. Being a friend means having shared interests and experiences, an emotional connection (including love), a certain degree of loyalty, trust, being someone's support system and moral reflection/compass, etc. Add "I want to **** you" or "I would like to date you" to that, and those other things can still remain. Therefore, I believe friendship can exist regardless of feelings, affections, etc. You don't magically stop being a friend just because you'd like to be more. Unless you yourself choose not to be a friend because of that situation. Also, interestingly enough: Word History: A friend is a lover, literally. The relationship between Latin amcus "friend" and am "I love" is clear, as is the relationship between Greek philos "friend" and phile "I love." In English, though, we have to go back a millennium before we see the verb related to friend. At that time, frond, the Old English word for "friend," was simply the present participle of the verb fron, "to love." The Germanic root behind this verb is *fr-, which meant "to like, love, be friendly to." Closely linked to these concepts is that of "peace," and in fact Germanic made a noun from this root, *frithu-, meaning exactly that. Ultimately descended from this noun are the personal names Frederick, "peaceful ruler," and Siegfried, "victory peace." The root also shows up in the name of the Germanic deity Frigg, the goddess of love, who lives on today in the word Friday, "day of Frigg," from an ancient translation of Latin Veneris dis, "day of Venus." You can most certainly like someone and want to get in their pants. Thats called a fck buddy. It doesnt have to be one or other. However, wanting both is not being just friends. We are at this again. The only way men and women can be friends is if you include Fck buddies Unrequited love Unrequited lust Orbiters In other words, most of the time men and women cant be just friends. Saying that men and women have a lot in common is iffy at best. For example, im a girl who happens to have traditional hobbies that are traditionally male ( liffing, firearms, cars). However, most women arent interested in gear ratios, jks vs fjs, remington vs mossy shotguns. Actually, people care a lot about their labels because with labels come expectations and responsibilities. Ask any guy stuck in the friendzone if he cares.
Dreamworld Posted October 25, 2013 Posted October 25, 2013 I think people are arguing about different things here...(scratching head) And just the fact that there is so much argument on this shows how complicated male and female friendships actually are. In almost (not all) reply there has always been one friend falling for the other. I think it's all about establishing boundaries and making sure you are being honest with your friend and yourself. Yes you can develop feelings for your opposite sex friend, but to maintain a true friendship, you focus on what makes the truly platonic aspects of the friendship great and try to keep the non platonic feelings at bay, or have them go away over time. Calling yourself a friend and expecting more is not being a friend. The problem, and what Babolat is trying to say, is when you KNOW your opposite sex friend wants you more than a friend but you use that to manipulate him/her without any intention of taking it further. That's not being a friend nor a **** buddy nor a romantic interest. It's being a jerk. And I stick to my guns in saying if you maintain a certain distance with opposite sex friends none of this stuff tends to happen in the first place.
TheGuard13 Posted October 25, 2013 Posted October 25, 2013 You can most certainly like someone and want to get in their pants. Thats called a fck buddy. No. WANTING TO HAVE SEX with someone does not make you a **** buddy. ACTUALLY HAVING SEX with someone makes you something other than just a friend, in this case a **** buddy, if that is the situational arrangement. It doesn't have to be one or other. However, wanting both is not being just friends. I never said anything about "just friends". I'm arguing that friendship can exist in several contexts, and even with overlapping feelings/sexual interest. We are at this again. The only way men and women can be friends is if you include Fck buddies Unrequited love Unrequited lust Orbiters You forgot "Both people are adults". You say this because you insist on believing that there are always "feelings" between men and women. That isn't the case. There are plenty of men and women who are friends with other men and women without having sexual or romantic interest. Saying that men and women have a lot in common is iffy at best. Didn't say "a lot in common". I said "shared interests and experiences". Actually, people care a lot about their labels because with labels come expectations and responsibilities. Ask any guy stuck in the friendzone if he cares. I never said otherwise. I was responding to your statement which began with something along the lines of "Who cares about labels?"
TheGuard13 Posted October 25, 2013 Posted October 25, 2013 I think it's all about establishing boundaries and making sure you are being honest with your friend and yourself. Yes you can develop feelings for your opposite sex friend, but to maintain a true friendship, you focus on what makes the truly platonic aspects of the friendship great and try to keep the non platonic feelings at bay, or have them go away over time. Calling yourself a friend and expecting more is not being a friend. THIS. When people can be mature and adult and honest and fair about things, friendships between men and women can absolutely exist. What people don't seem to grasp is that friendships are rarely perfect relationships, which themselves are varied and delicate things. ANY kind of friendship likely has some sort of imbalance, someone wanting more, less, etc. Unrequited love/lust and hopes and expectations for more in a romantic sense is not the only kind of relationship imbalance that exists.
hotpotato Posted October 26, 2013 Posted October 26, 2013 No. WANTING TO HAVE SEX with someone does not make you a **** buddy. ACTUALLY HAVING SEX with someone makes you something other than just a friend, in this case a **** buddy, if that is the situational arrangement. Youre right. They are not fck buddies yet because it is a one sided relatinship. However, the desires and intentions to move on to something more than a friendship are there. In yesteryears we called this being a suitor. Nowadays we call it an orbiter. The sex hasn't happened because because one party is pursuing (probably subtly) and the other isnt noticing or is rejecting them on some level. That's not a friendship! So now we are calling being rejected a friendship. I never said anything about "just friends". I'm arguing that friendship can exist in several contexts, and even with overlapping feelings/sexual interest. So in other words, men and women can't be just friends. Most of the time the only way to make men and women friends is to include relationship with sexual tension, relationships that are often one sided. You forgot "Both people are adults". You say this because you insist on believing that there are always "feelings" between men and women. That isn't the case. There are plenty of men and women who are friends with other men and women without having sexual or romantic interest. Not always, but there usually are. I'm sure many women have success with being friends with men who are very gay. I'm sure many older women have an easy time befriending younger men. Men and women dont have to have feelings for each other, but often time they do. In the real world, male and female friends develop feelings for each other. The most common scenario of friendship between opposite sexes would be the girl with a bunch of guy friends hanging around. Most likely those are not really her friends. Those are guys standing in line. Hypothetically can men and women be friends? Yes. Are they most of the time in real life? No. Didn't say "a lot in common". I said "shared interests and experiences". So in other words, men and women dont really have "a lot of common." Yet, something draws them together, especially drawing men to women. What could that be?
ASG Posted October 26, 2013 Posted October 26, 2013 Youre right. They are not fck buddies yet because it is a one sided relatinship. However, the desires and intentions to move on to something more than a friendship are there. In yesteryears we called this being a suitor. Nowadays we call it an orbiter. The sex hasn't happened because because one party is pursuing (probably subtly) and the other isnt noticing or is rejecting them on some level. That's not a friendship! So now we are calling being rejected a friendship. So in other words, men and women can't be just friends. Most of the time the only way to make men and women friends is to include relationship with sexual tension, relationships that are often one sided. Not always, but there usually are. I'm sure many women have success with being friends with men who are very gay. I'm sure many older women have an easy time befriending younger men. Men and women dont have to have feelings for each other, but often time they do. In the real world, male and female friends develop feelings for each other. The most common scenario of friendship between opposite sexes would be the girl with a bunch of guy friends hanging around. Most likely those are not really her friends. Those are guys standing in line. Hypothetically can men and women be friends? Yes. Are they most of the time in real life? No. So in other words, men and women dont really have "a lot of common." Yet, something draws them together, especially drawing men to women. What could that be? If *YOU* can't be friends with the opposite sex, then that's sad, but ti's your prerogative. But YOUR opinion does not make it FACT. And it isn't. Several people here are telling you that actual real friendships between people of opposite sexes are indeed possible. There is no one sideness. No imbalance. Don't project your inability to the population at large. Most of us can actually keep it in our pants (and have no desire to take it out) when with members of the opposite sex.
TheGuard13 Posted October 27, 2013 Posted October 27, 2013 Youre right. They are not fck buddies yet because it is a one sided relatinship. However, the desires and intentions to move on to something more than a friendship are there. In yesteryears we called this being a suitor. Nowadays we call it an orbiter. The sex hasn't happened because because one party is pursuing (probably subtly) and the other isnt noticing or is rejecting them on some level. That's not a friendship! So now we are calling being rejected a friendship. Yes, the desires and intentions to be more than a friend are there. But the issue I take is that you have, several times, flat out stated "That makes you a ****buddy". You're going to have to explain to me how it ceases being a friendship just because one of them wants something the other doesn't. It's not a perfect friendship, to be sure, but it's still a friendship, unless one of them is just "faking" (not the case in all such instances). So in other words, men and women can't be just friends. Most of the time the only way to make men and women friends is to include relationship with sexual tension, relationships that are often one sided. Not always, but there usually are. I'm sure many women have success with being friends with men who are very gay. I'm sure many older women have an easy time befriending younger men. Men and women dont have to have feelings for each other, but often time they do. In the real world, male and female friends develop feelings for each other. The most common scenario of friendship between opposite sexes would be the girl with a bunch of guy friends hanging around. Most likely those are not really her friends. Those are guys standing in line. Hypothetically can men and women be friends? Yes. Are they most of the time in real life? No. A lot of this simply isn't true. I would say the "unrequited" love thing is a smaller percentage of friendships than vice versa. I only have a few female friends I'd like to sleep with VS a number that I don't, and every guy I've ever known is the same way. We want to sleep with our attractive friends, but I wouldn't say that most guys are only friends with attractive women. So in other words, men and women dont really have "a lot of common." Yet, something draws them together, especially drawing men to women. What could that be? As I've already said, I didn't say "a lot in common". I was talking about actual things, interests they may have in common. Movies, TV, sports, working out, writing, art, dancing, music, etc.
hotpotato Posted October 28, 2013 Posted October 28, 2013 If *YOU* can't be friends with the opposite sex, then that's sad, but ti's your prerogative. But YOUR opinion does not make it FACT. And it isn't. Several people here are telling you that actual real friendships between people of opposite sexes are indeed possible. There is no one sideness. No imbalance. Don't project your inability to the population at large. Most of us can actually keep it in our pants (and have no desire to take it out) when with members of the opposite sex. Maybe it's time for me to start posting articles? Those guys you think are you friends, are you sure they are you friends? What happens a lot is one party projects their feelings onto the other. The party that wants to be friends assumes the other party feels the same. The party who wants to go to another assumes the other person wants the same or at least will at some point. This phenomenon isn't confined to me. Girls even in this very forum have had to deal with guy friends who starting hitting on them. Ask around. Go to other forums. Do a google search. This isn't confined to me by any means. Heck, you can even go to men forums. They'll talk about how awful it is that X girl is dating someone else when he liked her, and he got friendzoned. I apologize if I made it seem this only happens to girls, but i'm more familiar with my experiences and the experiences of other women. I'm sure there are guys who could tell stories about female beta orbiters. What most people are bringing up aren't friendships. They are one sided relationships in which one person got rejected or is waiting for a bone. Most friendships between straight men and women are a mating strategy, not friendship. Men and women friendships are very, very rare. If a woman wants a male friend, her best bet is to get a gay man as a friend. That's not really controversial in the real world or even on most forums. It's not controversial on this forum for the most part except for a few people.
hotpotato Posted October 29, 2013 Posted October 29, 2013 You're going to have to explain to me how it ceases being a friendship just because one of them wants something the other doesn't. It's not a perfect friendship, to be sure, but it's still a friendship, unless one of them is just "faking" (not the case in all such instances). A lot of this simply isn't true. I would say the "unrequited" love thing is a smaller percentage of friendships than vice versa. I only have a few female friends I'd like to sleep with VS a number that I don't, and every guy I've ever known is the same way. We want to sleep with our attractive friends, but I wouldn't say that most guys are only friends with attractive women. Because it's not a friend. You are waiting for them to throw you a bone. Either they haven't noticed that you want their poon or are rejecting you on some level. Onesidedness again. Im not saying you dont like them as people, but you are there waiting for that bone. You like many men probably picked women you were attracted to or who is at least doable. If it's just about friendship, why would it matter? That person is faking it-they are faking being a friend. I've had plenty of men fake being my friend. They eventually got upset i wasn't sexing them or dating them. All this time I thought they just wanted my company, but they were lusting after me. It's kinda gross, really. But usually very disappointing. If a wanted a man to lust after me and try to date me, I would date. I guess some girls are naive or get off on having orbiters for whatever reason. Unrequited simply means not mutual. For example, the unrequited sexual feelings you may have for your female friends. Once again, you are proving my point that the only way men and women at large could be friends is if you included fck buddies and wanna be fck buddies. Can men and women be friends? For the most part, heck no. Maybe it's just better to agree to disagree?
Dreamworld Posted October 29, 2013 Posted October 29, 2013 Ok. hmm. I think the male and female friendship is tricky. It's tricky because unlike same sex friendships, you have to make a conscious effort to keep the friendship, well, a friendship. Which is why I understand when people say men and women can't be friends in the same vein as same sex people can be friends. It's not the same as same sex friendships. It's only possible *without* the conscious effort when you hardly see each other or if there is no inkling whatsoever, not even a teeniest tiniest feel, of attraction. Someone on another board discussing this topic said something that I remember. "If you want to test the honesty of your platonic friendship with a heterosexual guy, get him alone in a room wearing barely anything or nothing and ask him to take you. His reaction will show you if he really is your friend." Conscious effort is needed to maintain the friendship. Thus, men and women being friends is not possible like same sex people being friends. I think I am getting redundant so I'll stop here.
ASG Posted October 29, 2013 Posted October 29, 2013 Maybe it's time for me to start posting articles? Those guys you think are you friends, are you sure they are you friends? What happens a lot is one party projects their feelings onto the other. The party that wants to be friends assumes the other party feels the same. The party who wants to go to another assumes the other person wants the same or at least will at some point. This phenomenon isn't confined to me. Girls even in this very forum have had to deal with guy friends who starting hitting on them. Ask around. Go to other forums. Do a google search. This isn't confined to me by any means. Heck, you can even go to men forums. They'll talk about how awful it is that X girl is dating someone else when he liked her, and he got friendzoned. I apologize if I made it seem this only happens to girls, but i'm more familiar with my experiences and the experiences of other women. I'm sure there are guys who could tell stories about female beta orbiters. What most people are bringing up aren't friendships. They are one sided relationships in which one person got rejected or is waiting for a bone. Most friendships between straight men and women are a mating strategy, not friendship. Men and women friendships are very, very rare. If a woman wants a male friend, her best bet is to get a gay man as a friend. That's not really controversial in the real world or even on most forums. It's not controversial on this forum for the most part except for a few people. Yes, I am sure my ale friends are actually my friends. They have been so for many years and have supported me through hard times. Isn't that what a friend is? I have plenty of gay friends as well. I have said before, yes, I have had the odd guy making a move and professing their undying love. It just made me stay away from them and not hang out with them until they were over it. Some of theses guys disappeared in the process, others didn't and are still friends (and are indeed over me) What I am saying is that things are not just black and white. There are many shades of grey. And it is very possible to have opposite sex friends. Friends that are *just* that. Friends.
hotpotato Posted October 30, 2013 Posted October 30, 2013 (edited) Yes, I am sure my ale friends are actually my friends. They have been so for many years and have supported me through hard times. Isn't that what a friend is? I have plenty of gay friends as well. I have said before, yes, I have had the odd guy making a move and professing their undying love. It just made me stay away from them and not hang out with them until they were over it. Some of theses guys disappeared in the process, others didn't and are still friends (and are indeed over me) What I am saying is that things are not just black and white. There are many shades of grey. And it is very possible to have opposite sex friends. Friends that are *just* that. Friends. Im sure they stuck around and supported you. Thats the down payment. Im sure then that you have had a heart to heart with all of your male 'friends.' Im sure there are many friends of the opposite sex. One of them is probably gay. Now more examples of people who got rejected but still hanging around for that bone. Ive had guy 'friends' confess their love for me, scare me off, then come back. Only I dont want them at that point. Theyve already added sex and drama to the mix. If I wanted sex and drama I would get a boyfriend. Edited October 30, 2013 by hotpotato 1
TB Rhine Posted November 4, 2013 Posted November 4, 2013 The woman, who is the subject of the post, has told me when she is in a relationship she has to tell her male friends things are different now. They can't talk as much, hang out as much, they can't flirt with her, etc. This strikes me as a wrong-headed view. Essentially, if behavior would be inappropriate given the fact that she's in a relationship, said behavior should ALSO be inappropriate given the fact that she and the men in question are not romantically (or sexually) involved. Having a stable of men that you hang out with, flirt with, and may or may not end up sleeping with - or more - at some point, isn't necessarily wrong, though I think that some women DO make a little too much of a lifestyle out of it. This is what I would call "seeing someone": you're not sexually involved, and you're certainly not exclusive, but you are spending time together and figuring out how things work, what the chemistry is like, how you fit into each other's lives, etc. What I see a lot of in real life, however, are women who have explicitly told various men in their lives that "it ain't gonna happen," and the men pretend to be okay with this, yet still act like surrogate boyfriends in all other respects - flirting with her, chauffeuring her around, paying for her meals, occasionally expressing romantic feelings toward her, and so on. In this type of situation, the woman is taking advantage of these guys by continuing to avail herself of their time and money, and in my opinion, only a woman of extremely low character would do this. The other situation I see, and have experienced firsthand, unfortunately, is a woman who will let a man take her out on several dates, pay her way, etc., then act like she wasn't aware of his romantic interest and thought they were "just friends" when he tries to make a move. She could easily rebuff the man's advances, while still acknowledging that the two have been dating and that things simply aren't going to work out, but for whatever reason many women choose not to do this, instead trying to save face by pretending to have been oblivious to the man's intentions. This is just disingenuous behavior; these women are acting in bad faith.
Kate9292 Posted November 4, 2013 Posted November 4, 2013 What I see a lot of in real life, however, are women who have explicitly told various men in their lives that "it ain't gonna happen," and the men pretend to be okay with this, yet still act like surrogate boyfriends in all other respects - flirting with her, chauffeuring her around, paying for her meals, occasionally expressing romantic feelings toward her, and so on. In this type of situation, the woman is taking advantage of these guys by continuing to avail herself of their time and money, and in my opinion, only a woman of extremely low character would do this. What? So it is bad thing that woman accepts favors done for her which she most likely didn't even ask for? It is extremely low character? Are you kidding me?
hotpotato Posted November 4, 2013 Posted November 4, 2013 This strikes me as a wrong-headed view. E What I see a lot of in real life, however, are women who have explicitly told various men in their lives that "it ain't gonna happen," and the men pretend to be okay with this, yet still act like surrogate boyfriends in all other respects - flirting with her, chauffeuring her around, paying for her meals, occasionally expressing romantic feelings toward her, and so on. In this type of situation, the woman is taking advantage of these guys by continuing to avail herself of their time and money, and in my opinion, only a woman of extremely low character would do this. The other situation I see, and have experienced firsthand, unfortunately, is a woman who will let a man take her out on several dates, pay her way, etc., then act like she wasn't aware of his romantic interest and thought they were "just friends" when he tries to make a move. She could easily rebuff the man's advances, while still acknowledging that the two have been dating and that things simply aren't going to work out, but for whatever reason many women choose not to do this, instead trying to save face by pretending to have been oblivious to the man's intentions. This is just disingenuous behavior; these women are acting in bad faith. I dont think he should pay if they are 'just friends.' Paying for her is courting behavior. Spending one on one time with him plus having him pay is giving the impression that he has a shot. Sounds like these guys are being taken advantage of but they also need to develop a spine. They're not called beta orbiters for nothing.
salparadise Posted November 4, 2013 Posted November 4, 2013 (edited) What most people are bringing up aren't friendships. They are one sided relationships in which one person got rejected or is waiting for a bone. Most friendships between straight men and women are a mating strategy, not friendship. Men and women friendships are very, very rare. I guess some girls are naive or get off on having orbiters for whatever reason. I think hotpotato is right––truly platonic is rare. Men and women are hardwired to optimize strategies and behaviors for mating success. Since their goals are asymmetrical, the strategies tend to be as well. The motivations need not be conscious to the individual nor intended to produce the result, so long as they manifest in behaviors that produce the result. So a man may convince his conscious mind that it's just friends but what keeps him invested is the potential for a reproductive opportunity. For females it's more complex because their optimization strategy is threefold–– a) familial investment, b) resources, and c) quality genetics. A woman's beta orbiters (as hotpotato so eloquently terms it) are a backup strategy designed to ensure an uninterrupted supply of one of the above. Her motivation is less urgent as long as her regular supply is continuously available, but the man's motivation for poon is stronger and ready for a green light at any time. So it's the woman's boundaries that maintain the stalemate. With either sex though, these so called "friends" will be people who have the potential to provide something the other values with regard to the larger mating strategy... even when the individuals have no conscious awareness of why they choose to be friends with people they have little else in common with. Edited November 4, 2013 by salparadise
TB Rhine Posted November 6, 2013 Posted November 6, 2013 So it is [a] bad thing that [a] woman accepts favors done for her which she most likely didn't even ask for? It is extremely low character? Are you kidding me? Umm... yes, it's a bad thing. Taking advantage of someone is taking advantage, regardless of whether or not the other person willingly allows themselves to be taken advantage of. Victims of con artists willingly give criminals their money - does this mean con artists are not criminals? What about telephone solicitors who pretend to be senile old folks' grandchildren, in order to con them into racking up thousands of dollars worth of purchases? Essentially, unless it's a straight-up fetish/money slave situation, this is NOT something that's being entered into in good faith, by either party. The guy is doing it for the hope of getting more from her (and is obviously not intelligent, or emotionally mature, enough to fully realize that he's being conned), and the woman knows that and is consciously or unconsciously bilking him. He's giving her things implicitly in exchange for being considered as a relationship partner, and she's accepting those things, knowing full well that she has no intention of honoring her end of the bargain. That's textbook fraud, and the fact that the crook has a vagina does not excuse the crime.
TB Rhine Posted November 6, 2013 Posted November 6, 2013 They're not called beta orbiters for nothing. I think something tends to get lost in all this talk about alphas and betas, and that's that the vast majority of men, by definition, are betas. There can only be one alpha in each "pack" (or whatever you wanna call them), after all. So, as much as no man wants to willingly admit that he's a beta... betas are what makes the world go 'round. You can't have a CEO without an army of underlings bearing him up on their shoulders, and you can't even have individual mid-level supervisors without giving them someone to manage. We like to preserve the illusion that there's always room for advancement, for upward mobility, but the simple fact of the matter is that there's only so much room at the top. The majority of men will always be stuck at the bottom - or, if they're lucky, perhaps the low end of the middle. All of which is just a long-winded way of saying that you can't expect most men to be alphas; nature isn't designed that way, and in fact, the world couldn't function if it was. A big issue in gender relations, I think - and I know I'm not breaking any new ground here - is that alpha men are defined in terms of success, social status, and interpersonal aggressiveness, whereas alpha women are defined pretty much solely in terms of physical attractiveness. And there are far more women who possess that *one* quality than there are men who possess that amalgam of characteristics. Again, there's only so much room at the top, for men and for women. There are far more women trying to beg, borrow, steal, or marry their way up there, however, than there is space to accommodate them.
Kate9292 Posted November 6, 2013 Posted November 6, 2013 (edited) Umm... yes, it's a bad thing. Taking advantage of someone is taking advantage, regardless of whether or not the other person willingly allows themselves to be taken advantage of. Victims of con artists willingly give criminals their money - does this mean con artists are not criminals? What about telephone solicitors who pretend to be senile old folks' grandchildren, in order to con them into racking up thousands of dollars worth of purchases? Essentially, unless it's a straight-up fetish/money slave situation, this is NOT something that's being entered into in good faith, by either party. The guy is doing it for the hope of getting more from her (and is obviously not intelligent, or emotionally mature, enough to fully realize that he's being conned), and the woman knows that and is consciously or unconsciously bilking him. He's giving her things implicitly in exchange for being considered as a relationship partner, and she's accepting those things, knowing full well that she has no intention of honoring her end of the bargain. That's textbook fraud, and the fact that the crook has a vagina does not excuse the crime. LOL. Are you serious? Listen up, all fellow women, if you accept any favor from a guy you're not romantically interested in, you're commiting a textbook fraud! It couldn't possibly be that a guy is actually kind-hearted and does favors without expecting anything in return. Oh no way in hell! He only ever does favors because he wants to get in woman's pants. And she knows it and defrauds him out of possibility of sex, because as soon she accepts the favor, a man is entitled to some action! As it was put, her end of bargain was not honored! What a con Edited November 6, 2013 by Kate9292
darkmoon Posted November 6, 2013 Posted November 6, 2013 (edited) I am not great looking, depends on the woman, some women do not realize how attractive they are perceived to be, they might see average looks on the mirror so if a male friend fancies her, it is more his problem than hers, she is not trying to seduce him, if he needs sex he'll ask, she'll do for a night is how she'll see it if she is unaware of her charms, more truly, some women really are only betas, not film star standard anyway, that's rare, I get asked because I have a tush and my male friends want sex, failed friendships, so much so, I would not take a male friend seriously any more Edited November 6, 2013 by darkmoon
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