Men and woman as friends; revisited

[hotpotato]

Let me ask you a question. If you were not hot, not attractive, not all that, say you were fat, ugly, unattractive, do you think these "dudes" would be your "friend"? Say you were exactly the same person, same personality, same everything.....only difference, you are no longer attractive, in fact you may be out right ugly. How many of the dudes would still be around? As you say, you are not extremely unattractive...lets say for a second you are...

 

Lolz

 

No man is gonna say, "Shes beautiful. That body is perfect. Dat butt. Dat rack. I cant wait to be her FRIEND!!!!"

 

Chris Rock did a segment on that. It waa hilarious!

[Drdateright12]

I personally believe the majority of guy and girl relationship are usually false because of your point, but women do love having that control over men. Yes, it is true that most guys want to hook up with their female friends. <Most of the time they are hoping for the opportunity when she decides she may like them they can hook up with them. Another problem I noticed that if friends start hooking up or have hooked up before; as soon as the male or the female cut off the hooking up the friendship usually falls apart.

[TheGuard13]

But the intentions are to be a fck buddy. The sexual feelings are there, but one party is shutting the other one down. Once again it comes down to reality vs intentions.

 

I feel like I am debating with you over the definition of 'iS.'

 

Elaborate?

 

This kind of approach assumes that all men's end game is to sleep with a woman they befriend, and that this is the only achievement they will value regarding her, IE, the only thing they want. That is ridiculous and hyperbolic, and does not apply to all men.

 

Orbiting means to hang around her, whether for dating or just for sex.

 

But not all men "orbit", and not all men are hanging around women for just these reasons. This is my point.

 

Oh im not saying you cant like someone and also want to screw them. People all the time. Its called a fck buddy. Is it friendship? Nope.

 

So your assessment is that, if you want to screw someone, you are then considered their "**** buddy"?

 

No. That is like wanting to play professional baseball and working toward that, but before you get there, saying that you're a Major League Baseball Player.

 

It doesn't work that way.

 

In other words, men and women cant just be platonic so lets change the definition of friendship to suit my argument.

 

No. I never said a word about men and women not being able to just be platonic.

 

I'm not naiive enough to believe that friendship has a narrow definition or social application, period.

 

Society already has names for people who fck and hang out but dont date-friends with benefits, fck buddies, etc. But men and women being just friends is a no go most of the time.

 

And had we only been discussing this in the context of only friends with benefits, I would agree with you. But we weren't specifically only discussing people who hang out and **** but don't date...we were discussing all men who have friends they might like to sleep with, or have feelings for on some level, and whether they are considered "friends".

 

Ill put it this way. Would you screw or thinking about screwing your best male friends? Probably not. Thats what a friendship is. Once again you are proving my pount. Men and women cant be just friends most of the time, and deep diwn we all know this.

 

So...let me get this straight. The meat of a friendship is "not wanting to screw someone"?

 

Wow.

 

Just...wow.

 

And the only way to say men and women can be friends is to include what was once called unrequited love or unrequited sexual feelings or to put lovers or wannabe lovers in the same pool as those who are friends.

 

You seem to be confusing "feelings" with "labels" or "roles".

 

And you're far too hung up on definitions, and narrowly accepted ideas of things.

[acrosstheuniverse]

Let me ask you a question. If you were not hot, not attractive, not all that, say you were fat, ugly, unattractive, do you think these "dudes" would be your "friend"? Say you were exactly the same person, same personality, same everything.....only difference, you are no longer attractive, in fact you may be out right ugly. How many of the dudes would still be around? As you say, you are not extremely unattractive...lets say for a second you are...

 

Yeah, they'd still be around, I'm sure of it. I'm sure because they are also friends with women who aren't attractive, our friendships have spanned years (10+ in one or two cases) and are built on something far deeper than surface appearances. I choose my friends wisely and for the qualities they possess, shared interests etc. and I'd be very much surprised if they were the kinds of people not to want to make a new friend just because they thought she was unattractive. Also, every woman I know will have male friends they think are ugly, because of what comes out of their mouths not what their face looks like. And I refuse to buy into the idea that men are all exclusively mouth-breathing, knuckle-dragging neanderthals who are assessing every interaction for the sole likelihood of a F...

 

Obviously I could be way off the mark, because I'm not inside their heads. But I'd wager that our enduring friendships are down to something a little deeper than the fact that I'm objectively attractive. If there are people in the world who can't envisage a friendship with somebody attractive of the opposite gender because they don't believe that those dynamics work, that says a lot about their own hang-ups and view of the opposite sex, in my opinion.

[Sanman]

A few points,

 

Guards and hotpotato - you two can't seem to agree on whether someone who wants to get in your pants but cannot is an orbiter or a **** buddy. Come to a consensus.

 

This is not all or nothing - just because these situations exist does not rule out the existence of platonic male/female relationships.

 

Power differentials exist in all types of friendships. I am more popular than some of the friends I hang out with. In those relationships, I have power over that person because they need me more as a friend than I need them. In situations where common friends I forced to choose who to see, I win. Just because a power differential exists does not mean that there is not friendship.

[acrosstheuniverse]

Wanted to add a little more but couldn't edit...

 

I'm not talking about imaginary male friends that I've had for a couple months and who I hang out with more than I do my own boyfriend, the majority of them are either historic from my teenage years, guys I've met through studying/placement with whom I have strong shared values and interests, or friends I've picked up along the way that I may catch up with a few times a year at least, or meet every other week/chat most days at the other end of the spectrum. I often think when people get these kinds of discussions going they immediately jump to what they would picture as the 'worst' kind of friendship, i.e. their girlfriend is hanging out with another dude she's only just met a month ago more than she sees you and they both find each other attractive. Real friendships just don't develop overnight and if it was a situation like that then yes, it would look like he wants more and she's leading him on. But most of my friendships don't spring up overnight, and have longevity.

 

I guess it boils down to the fact that many of these 'friendships' do have that dynamic, and won't end well. But that doesn't discount the fact that plenty of them will last a lifetime. Of my three closest male friends, one I kissed 11 years ago while wasted for ten seconds and that was that, he's like a brother to me and vice versa, I'm treated as part of his family and his family even took me in last year when I had nowhere to go, while he was living away in a different city, his mother is like my second mum since my own died. The second, not a thing has ever happened, I'm sure he could objectively assess that I was attractive if you asked him but we've never flirted, I introduce my boyfriends to him, I get on great with his wife and kid and hang at their house as well as meet him for coffee one on one. And the third, I'm great friends with both him and his girlfriend and we all hang out together with my boyfriend included too. I honestly think there's more to life than the way people look.

[hotpotato]

What is [bOLD]IS[/bOLD]?

 

I can see we wont agree.

 

You think someone who cant get any because the other person is shooting them down or stringing them along is a friendship. What you have is a failure to understand the difference between what someone wants and is hoping for (intentions) from what someone has (reality).

 

You are putting words in my mouth by implying that I said men and women cant be friends. They can be, but most of the time its not reality. People have already said that in this thread ad nauseam.

 

At least we can agree that the ony way men and women can be friends most of the time is to have a very, very broad definition of what constitutes a friend. We would have to include orbiters and wannabe lovers and suitors as friends.

 

And really who cares about labels? Im sure there are many men being strung along dont care at all. Labels are important because they carry expectations and responsibilities. What good does it do to call guys who are actually orbiters or suitors friends? So a girl can have a bf plus some guy friends 'suitors' on the side without admitting what is actually going on?

[ASG]

Let me ask you a question. If you were not hot, not attractive, not all that, say you were fat, ugly, unattractive, do you think these "dudes" would be your "friend"? Say you were exactly the same person, same personality, same everything.....only difference, you are no longer attractive, in fact you may be out right ugly. How many of the dudes would still be around? As you say, you are not extremely unattractive...lets say for a second you are...

 

The question wasn't for me, but I'll answer anyway. YES. A resounding YES.

 

My male friends are friends. They might thing I'm hot. Might have entertained the idea of us sleeping together, but our relationship is NOT that. It's about us sharing interests and having fun together.

 

I could be uglier than Quasimodo and my friends would remain the same.

 

And touching on something that has been brought up, I do get along great with men (sometimes more so than with women), but I have plenty of female friends and there is no cattiness between us, at all!

[acrosstheuniverse]

And touching on something that has been brought up, I do get along great with men (sometimes more so than with women), but I have plenty of female friends and there is no cattiness between us, at all!

 

I didn't see this in the thread (didn't read it all) but I'm very much the same; when I meet a new person, I probably am going to hit it off more with a male than a female, at the first instance. I think this is because I am more of a tomboy kinda girl, even though I look very girly (in terms of the blow dry, manicure, makeup etc.), and I just find it easier to shoot the breeze with men than woman at first.

 

But of my close friends, I'd say they're pretty evenly spread. I've never had an argument with a friend, and I've never had that competitiveness or cattiness with my female friends. We compliment each other all the time! We build each other up, we support each other, we recognise that our friendships of nearly 15 years in some cases are the relationships that have, so far, stood the test of time, moreso than romantic relationships with men. I don't get this dynamic people seem to have with f/f friendships with this subtext of jealousy or whatever. I act the same with my girls as I do with my guys.

[Babolat]

I could be uglier than Quasimodo and my friends would remain the same.

So your point is, regardless of how attractive you are, or are not, your current male friends would have chosen to be friends with you? If you were uglier than Quasimodo when you met ALL of your male friends, they would have wanted to be your friend, period? There is no chance the initial attraction, was, well, physical attraction and a romantic interest? It was soley friends, and never more?

 

acrosstheuniverse, well said on your follow up comments/posts!

[ASG]

I didn't see this in the thread (didn't read it all) but I'm very much the same; when I meet a new person, I probably am going to hit it off more with a male than a female, at the first instance. I think this is because I am more of a tomboy kinda girl, even though I look very girly (in terms of the blow dry, manicure, makeup etc.), and I just find it easier to shoot the breeze with men than woman at first.

 

But of my close friends, I'd say they're pretty evenly spread. I've never had an argument with a friend, and I've never had that competitiveness or cattiness with my female friends. We compliment each other all the time! We build each other up, we support each other, we recognise that our friendships of nearly 15 years in some cases are the relationships that have, so far, stood the test of time, moreso than romantic relationships with men. I don't get this dynamic people seem to have with f/f friendships with this subtext of jealousy or whatever. I act the same with my girls as I do with my guys.

 

I think this is spot on! I tend to be one of the guys, so I mostly hit it off first with the boys, and then the girls. Even though I am a girly girl in a lot of ways, I prefer to sit at the bar and have a pint with the lads than go dancing with the girls.

 

But with my girl friends, some of those friendships are 10+ years old, other only a couple of years, but we support each other and there has never been any jealousy and bitchiness behind anyone's back.

 

And my oldest friends are boys. One friend I've known for over 20 years. He was my best friend's older brother. I don't really keep in touch with her anymore, we kinda lost contact when we were teens, but still close with her brother! And his best friend is also one of my very best friends. Been friends now for over 15 years. When we first met, and I was about 13 and he was 16, he was interested in me. We flirted, but I liked someone else, so it never happened. Those feeling faded pretty soon after and never came up again.

[acrosstheuniverse]

acrosstheuniverse, well said on your follow up comments/posts!

 

Why thank you, Babolat I tend to be a bit verbose, ha!

[Babolat]

When we first met, and I was about 13 and he was 16, he was interested in me. We flirted, but I liked someone else, so it never happened. Those feeling faded pretty soon after and never came up again.

 

BINGO! Just sayin'

[hotpotato]

So...let me get this straight. The meat of a friendship is "not wanting to screw someone"?

 

.

 

Thats part of it! For the record, im not saying they cant or dont enjoy each others company. What im saying is there is sexual tension its not a friendship. Most likely the scenario is at best a one sided friendship in which one person wants to be platonic and the other wants more. This other person is waiting for the opportunity. The feelings are unrequited, and this person is settling for less than what they really want.

 

Ive had so called guy friends get the hots for me. I kick them to the curb because I wabt a friend not a lover.

[hotpotato]

BINGO! Just sayin'

 

Yes, another one sided friendship! Lol

[Babolat]

Thats part of it! For the record, im not saying they cant or dont enjoy each others company. What im saying is there is sexual tension its not a friendship. Most likely the scenario is at best a one sided friendship in which one person wants to be platonic and the other wants more. This other person is waiting for the opportunity. The feelings are unrequited, and this person is settling for less than what they really want.

 

Ive had so called guy friends get the hots for me. I kick them to the curb because I wabt a friend not a lover.

 

Sexual tension, words that jumped out at me. When there IS sexual tension, can it be a real friendship? Me answer is no.

[hotpotato]

Sexual tension, words that jumped out at me. When there IS sexual tension, can it be a real friendship? Me answer is no.

 

First comes the sexual tension.

 

Then comes the jealousy, hurt, or even impatience when they learn you are dating or sexing someone else.

 

If they were really a friend, it wouldnt matter.

 

Plus, its unfair imo to have them around when we have different goals and expectations.

[Dreamworld]

I agree with you 100%... The bolded part more or less describes me (yes, people IRL say I have a great personality and am lots of fun... although some here would find that hard to believe, ha ha).

 

I have both male and female friends. My male friends stay my male friends because I always defer to their GF or wife. To be honest, that's how I treat my female friends too. If they are in a committed relationship, their partner or spouse's needs come first. I'm happy to say that all of my friends have well-balanced lives and so I never feel gipped by my real friends... or used... or manipulated...

 

Sure, there are a couple of male friends who toyed with the idea of us sleeping together at first. And maybe I toyed with the idea of dating them too... but as we got to know each other, we both saw incompatibilities in lifestyle, temperment, energy level, age group... whatever. I can't imagine any of them taking advantage of me.

 

Anyway, I have about the same number of female and male friends.

 

Hey RedRobin, your post reminded me of a real life example, which I hope also covers some of the replies about attractiveness vs. unattractiveness in determing whether such friendships can be really platonic or not.

 

There was a beautiful girl in my class during my grad school years. I mean drop dead gorgeous the kind who turned heads. The thing is, she was beautiful on the inside and out. Really nice girl with a lot of integrity and she maintained great friendships with both males and females. Of course I am sure some of those male friends were attracted to her and wanted to be more than friends but you can't really control everyone's feelings. She was just good about her boundaries and being honest and everyone liked her. She's an example of a nice person who has both male and female friends because it's how she carries herself. This is again yet another type of discussion but this shows to me that women don't get "just" jealous and catty towards women they think are more beautiful than they. Well maybe the insecure and mean ones but usually when a whole group of women really can't stand a certain woman, there is a reason. Or maybe I have too much love for my fellow women, but that's how I feel.

 

So when these women who only have male friends complain about how ALL women are f-ing bitches and thus men are the only friends they can have, I think there is more of a problem within that woman. And I think women are really intuitive creatures, hence the hatred they feel could be because of something this woman is giving off.

 

The difference between the 'stringing along' type and maintaining friendship with a male who is interested in you is how that certain woman establishes her boundaries. I totally agree with posters who say you can't just end friendships because the guy happens to fall for you; they can't help the way they feel (sexually emotionally or both) but you have to know then how to maintain the boundary so the guys eventually realize it's going to remain a friendship so they adjust accordingly and not have the false hope they are going to get into your pants. If they can't adjust then maybe the friendship has to end (personally I had to end the friendships because it was just too uncomfortable).

 

So kudos to those of you can who can maintain those boundaries and be clear about them. It's the women who know these guys want her but manipulates this to her advantage for her own validation, using them to flirt and prove to herself how hot she is..that is a problem. I think this is the type Babolat is hinting at and is upset about, right?

[Dreamworld]

Here, is the other issue. People are assuming that one or both of these people are single. I have a friend now, who is also a co-worker, and is really cool. Be are both about the same age and we talk all the time. Would I ask her out if we were both single? Sure. However, neither of us are. That is fine and we are still friends.

 

To add to what Dream world said, it is also important to see what type of friends a woman is talking about. If, in all of these male friendships, not one of these men are gay, that also adds credence to the argument that these are not platonic friends. This type of person prefers orbiters rather than friends. My gf has a friend like this. She is friends with mostly straight men. My gf was a bit of a wallflower and never in a serious relationship when they were close. Once we got together and became serious, you could see this friend get jealous and be mens because we were spending more time together and I became more important. She could not handle not being the center of attention. She also has a history of fighting with other women she perceives to be as attractive as her.

 

I agree with this. And when it's friends of the opposite sex who are married,as someone already mentioned, you have to go up another notch of cautiousness in the boundaries. For male friends who have wives, I priortize the communication with the wives and that has never been a problem and the wives like me too. So you have your male friends but also end up with some great female friends too.

[Dreamworld]

Not saying OP is guilty of this, but I'd be pretty curious to find out how many of the girls who whine about guys flirting with them flirt right back and love the attention and the flirting, just not the reality of the guy's affections.

 

This also reminded me of another real example. I knew someone like this and she bothered me so much we are not friends anymore. She'd whine about how guys were always so hot for her (rolling eyes) and she couldn't handle how much they were flirting with her. Well I watched how she interacted with them, and she was certainly quite enthusiastic in encouraging them and she didn't even care about them. It takes two to tango so they say. So I don't have much sympathy for those who shrug and say "it's his problem he wants to do me" and then continue to encourage them.

 

But it did get back to her because one of them boys had enough and totally called her out on it in front of everyone, Jerry Springer style. They have that saying "hell hath no fury like a woman scorned." This boy topped that one.

[Dreamworld]

Lolz

 

No man is gonna say, "Shes beautiful. That body is perfect. Dat butt. Dat rack. I cant wait to be her FRIEND!!!!"

 

Chris Rock did a segment on that. It waa hilarious!

 

hahaha Hotpotato, I saw the Chris Rock segment too!

And I'd also like to add I really agree with the majority of your posts.

 

Babolat, thank you for the thought provoking question. I think I am bombarding your thread so I'll sum up with what I think of the male/female dynamics in a platonic friendship. This is a reply I posted in another thread so it seems to be relevant here too. I bolded the parts I thought were most important in getting my thoughts across.

 

This kind of post always reminds me of why they say girls are perfectly capable of maintaining platonic friendships with guys (no other motives, no leading on, but completely no attraction platonic friendships) but a bigger percentage of guys always have ulterior motives when they are good friends with a girl. I have a younger brother who says when guys are good friends with a girl, they always want something more. Always. Otherwise they'd hang out with other guys. I emphasize 'good close friends' because I think the level of closeness has a lot to do with whether these friendships work. I am sure people will disagree but I have never ever been able to be close friends with the opposite sex without them wanting something more. The only guy friends that have remained platonic friendships are guys I know but are not frequently in touch with. And we're not close at all, more like school acquiantances we meet as a group like once or twice a year max and never one on one.

So I am kind of envious of girls who can pull of healthy close girl and guy friendships without any problems. (I keep bolding this to show that I think male and female friendships are completely possible, but to a certain extent)

 

In conclusion, the females who KNOW guys want to f her but play around with them anyway? That's just a whole other group going beyond the male and female dynamics and personally I think these ones give the rest of the female population a bad rep. Cheers!

[Babolat]

I think this is the type Babolat is hinting at and is upset about, right?

 

A fair assessment.

[Babolat]

hahaha Hotpotato, I saw the Chris Rock segment too!

And I'd also like to add I really agree with the majority of your posts.

 

Babolat, thank you for the thought provoking question. I think I am bombarding your thread so I'll sum up with what I think of the male/female dynamics in a platonic friendship. This is a reply I posted in another thread so it seems to be relevant here too. I bolded the parts I thought were most important in getting my thoughts across.

 

This kind of post always reminds me of why they say girls are perfectly capable of maintaining platonic friendships with guys (no other motives, no leading on, but completely no attraction platonic friendships) but a bigger percentage of guys always have ulterior motives when they are good friends with a girl. I have a younger brother who says when guys are good friends with a girl, they always want something more. Always. Otherwise they'd hang out with other guys. I emphasize 'good close friends' because I think the level of closeness has a lot to do with whether these friendships work. I am sure people will disagree but I have never ever been able to be close friends with the opposite sex without them wanting something more. The only guy friends that have remained platonic friendships are guys I know but are not frequently in touch with. And we're not close at all, more like school acquiantances we meet as a group like once or twice a year max and never one on one.

 

So I am kind of envious of girls who can pull of healthy close girl and guy friendships without any problems. (I keep bolding this to show that I think male and female friendships are completely possible, but to a certain extent)

 

In conclusion, the females who KNOW guys want to f her but play around with them anyway? That's just a whole other group going beyond the male and female dynamics and personally I think these ones give the rest of the female population a bad rep. Cheers!

 

Well said! Where have you been?

[TheGuard13]

You think someone who cant get any because the other person is shooting them down or stringing them along is a friendship. What you have is a failure to understand the difference between what someone wants and is hoping for (intentions) from what someone has (reality).

 

Umm...no. I did not say that that specific situation would equate to "friendship". At any point.

 

The concept of friendship, like almost anything else, is situational and contextual.

 

I'd love to see why you think I don't understand the difference between those concepts.

 

You are putting words in my mouth by implying that I said men and women cant be friends. They can be, but most of the time its not reality. People have already said that in this thread ad nauseam.

 

Actually, I'm more addressing your statements as to what "friend" means than saying anything about your thoughts on whether men and women can be friends.

 

At least we can agree that the ony way men and women can be friends most of the time is to have a very, very broad definition of what constitutes a friend. We would have to include orbiters and wannabe lovers and suitors as friends.

 

No, I won't agree to that either. Though it would depend on the situation that said "orbiter" and "wannabe lover" and "suitor" found themselves in. People can take on more than one role in society, they don't have to be one or the other.

 

A friend is a friend. The word and concept of a friend has an accepted cultural and social definition, and yes, there is room in there for romantic feelings, and society has enforced this, whether you think so or not. You don't magically stop being someone's friend because they occasionally give you an erection.

 

And really who cares about labels? Im sure there are many men being strung along dont care at all.

 

Who cares? Apparently you do, because you flat out go on to say "labels are important", and because you insist on certain feelings someone can't have and still be considered a "friend", but rather a different type of role, IE, "orbiter".

 

Labels are important because they carry expectations and responsibilities. What good does it do to call guys who are actually orbiters or suitors friends? So a girl can have a bf plus some guy friends 'suitors' on the side without admitting what is actually going on?

 

What good does it do? Depends on the quality of the relationship, I guess. It clues them and others in on your thoughts about them, and their importance in your life, etc.

 

And as I pointed out, someone can be someone's friend and be an orbiter or a suitor, or a murderer, or a barista or a father or a cousin or a rebel, or any number of roles in society.

[TheGuard13]

What im saying is there is sexual tension its not a friendship.

 

That...is the dumbest thing I've heard in a while.

 

And this is LoveShack.

 

That because I might have a feeling for a friend, I am suddenly not considered their friend anymore.

 

Seriously, there is no logic whatsoever to that.