How to avoid the friend zone by younger women?

[KathyM]

OK, I think I need to clarify something. My problem is not hitting on these women, it is how do I proceed once they go out with me. I have been out one on one with 6 girls under 30 in the last 3 months and still continue to go out. So it's not a question of me being creepy in their eyes INITIALLY because I'm fun and treat them with respect, etc. The question is how to transition to more than friends when in general most advice says to let the younger woman make the first move. Mind you, I already to somewhat flirty things like stroke their hair, etc, and they don't back away or seem offended. I even ask them if it's ok as I stroke their hair or rub their back, etc.

 

It's pretty much the kiss that I hesitate on, but I suppose as I just treat them as women and not as young women, the rules should be the same and I just go for it.

 

For those "girls" who have responded, I'm sure you'll never understand my situation, so probably best not to add your 2 cents as you're not open to the older/younger dating situation in the first place.

 

Thanks!

I think I understand your situation very well. As I said, one of my clients is in exactly the same situation as you. I was giving you his experience with approaching much younger women. I also counsel two young ladies in their 20s who have been involved with much older men, so I know what the dynamics are, and why they started a relationship with a much older man. My niece, when in her early 20s, also was involved with a much older man, and in fact, was in an exclusive relationship with him for a few years. She is now in a relationship with a man her own age, in her late 20s. So I think I know a thing or two about that subject, and the dynamics involved. You say you are interested in that age range because they have less baggage than women over 30, but I'm here to tell you that it is primarily because of psychological baggage that women that young get involved with much older men. Women who have daddy issues and are looking for a father figure. That was the case with my niece, who was looking for a father figure to take care of her, since her own father was not a part of her life since she was a baby. My two clients who have dated much older men were also looking for a father figure to take care of them. One even said as much. Both came from very dysfunctional families where the father was either abusive or not there for them. So if you're looking for women who have no baggage, you're not likely to find one among those who are open to dating much older men. Or perhaps you don't consider psychological baggage as a dealbreaker.

[lop98]

BTW, believe it or not, the 22 yr old is much more mature than girls in their 30's I've dated in the past.

 

It's not really maturity, you're usually more ignorant of how life can bite you in the ass and therefore more confident, not long ago I was 22 too, and thought I could handle a 50 year-old man... I really had NO idea what I was getting into and he didn't have much idea either, he thought I was some kind of "old soul" just because I spoke about things I really had no idea or even interest about like I owned the topic... I'd dismiss relationships for example, thinking I had found better than that old concept that works for nobody. All BS, but the man bought it (apparently), *I* bought it myself ... it didn't end well.

 

At that age the people you hang out with have all things by their side (looks, equal combination of cluelessness and confidence, availability), what made me interested in the 50 y.o man was the fact that he looked like he had all his **** together, looked like a man and not a boy... worked out a lot... you could have a conversation with him for hours, and most importantly, he looked amused by me at first but not really interested, which was unusual and more attractive, weird when you consider how people will obviously get an ego stroke for getting the attention of someone almost 30 years younger... and this you know regardless of age, same for wondering about other motives, whether he's a loser among people his age and I'm not able to tell.. stuff like that. It was fun while it lasted (some 3 months).

 

It all depends of what you want, if your sole mission is based on "I need to date someone half my age!" type of validation and moving on fast, either take care of your appearance to make up for the disadvantages in the 20 year-olds arena or settle for the ones that lack attention... sorry to sound cynical but c'est la vie...

[Outsider77]

I'm wondering if you're interested in a LTR with a younger woman, or just sex. If you're just looking for sex or a casual relationship it would probably be easier to get the type of woman you are looking for.

 

I used to be interested in much older men. But I was never actually interested in having a relationship with them. I was attracted to them because they had experience, and it felt like they knew everything. But at the same time I felt like there was something wrong with them and they shouldn't have been interested in me. So I was never serious about dating any of them.

 

I think a lot of younger women date much older men just for fun. They eventually move on when bored and find someone closer to their age. At least that's been my experience.

[romeosadventure]

I'm wondering if you're interested in a LTR with a younger woman, or just sex. If you're just looking for sex or a casual relationship it would probably be easier to get the type of woman you are looking for.

 

I used to be interested in much older men. But I was never actually interested in having a relationship with them. I was attracted to them because they had experience, and it felt like they knew everything. But at the same time I felt like there was something wrong with them and they shouldn't have been interested in me. So I was never serious about dating any of them.

 

I think a lot of younger women date much older men just for fun. They eventually move on when bored and find someone closer to their age. At least that's been my experience.

 

Well, I'm lucky in that I've never been considered boring by those I've dated...younger and older. Question for you. When you say you were interested in much older men, did you have physical interest in them? Did you ever date one even very casually and if so, were you intimate?

 

Lost in original post is that I have been single about a year after a long term relationship...about 8 years. The person I broke up with was the same age as me and just got into a rut where all she did was work, come home, and then change into her pajamas. When asked to do something after work, she was just too tired. Anyway, this is lack of energy/desire, is one reason I enjoy being with younger women...and yes I admit it, they generally are more attractive...sorry, but true.

[youaremysunshine]

Also unfortunately we all have responsibilities. Most 20 something's I know are pulling all nighters trying to get comepetive grades in uni ( anything less than a B + is a fail now) and working some degrading part time job to pay the bills.

 

If you don't work to avoid that rut, you will fall into it with anyone.

[youaremysunshine]

Men in their 20s are more attractive... Sorry but true

[Eggplant]

You should focus on women who don't want children. At 45, you're not the best candidate to start a family. There are health risks associated with the sperm, and you'll be 65 when the kid is in college. I'm 26, and that's one of the reasons I immediately rule out older men.

[antonio1149]

Just to clarify, you don't think a 22 year old that would $@&$ a 45 year old doesn't have baggage, daddy issues perhaps?

 

Oh, come now. That's like saying a fit, athletic guy who goes for a chubby woman must have fat fetish issues. Maybe he just thinks she's an amazing person and is willing to focus less on the perfect body. Maybe the 22-year-old meets an older guy who's thoughtful, fun, youthful for his age, interesting, generous, and she's willing to overlook the fact that his skin might have wrinkle or two to get all the good stuff.

 

I agree with the other poster who said--no offense to anyone--but women cannot possibly be anything close to objective on this topic.

 

Honestly if I hear one more guy say young girls are "uncomplicated" "fun" or "simple" I'm going to ask them if their ancient brain can recal women in their early 20s when they were that age and then multiply the crazy factor by 10

On this, I somewhat agree with you. They might indeed be less complicated, more fun and energetic, and be "simple," i.e., less baggage. They also might be wildly immature and exasperating. But I depart from the OP on this. A major reason for me to pursue someone younger is physical attraction. The whole point of "attraction," from nature's perspective, is to get us to have sex and keep the species going, which means being drawn to women who are fertile--i.e., in their 20's and 30's. This doesn't change much as you age, sadly. It would be like expecting women, as they age, to lose their preference for tall men.

[InnocentMan]

My advice is to seek out those with poor self esteem... pretend you care about her as a person. Use flattery, gifts... lie about your life plans or the people you are acquainted with and places you have traveled.

 

If she has few friends or doesnt get along well with her family.... thats some low hanging fruit right there.

 

Orbit until a life crisis comes along and do the whole 'here baby, I'm sure a back rub will make things all better'... then make your 'move'

 

It's not that tough... you know.... all the things other men do but women closer to your own age have figured out how to see through

 

Way to ruin it for all of us bro.

[HoneyBadgerDontCare]

OP, first, well done on dating considerably younger girls!

 

Don't let the butthurt old ladies on this forum get to you. They're just mad that you're doing what's natural and chasing younger women, as opposed to giving in to the feminist imperative.

 

I also date mostly younger women (though, I'm 26....so younger women to me are 18-21).

 

It sounds like you fall into the friendzone for the same reason most guys do: you're not being aggressive enough. Let her know your intentions early on. Make a move. Be more touchy feely (though, don't go overboard with it) and kiss her at the first opportunity. If she turns you down, be cool and try again later.

[RonaldS]

This is an interesting topic.

 

I'm 39...over the hill, divorced, kids, etc. Not exactly the kind of candy that younger girls would like. At least, that's what I thought when I went back to being a single guy.

 

The reality though, is very different. Now, FTR, I have no interest in committed, long term relationships period, whether with a woman my age, older or younger. And I really am not into young girls, and by young, I would say 18-24. 25 is doable, 28 is perfect. That's still 11 years younger than me.

 

But I'm back in school, so I'm around a lot of young girls everyday, and also live in the middle of a very large city, so there are plenty of other girls between 18-28 running around. I don't mess with the 18-24 year olds, and a lot of the girls in my classes are 20-24, so I feel like I have a good idea of what makes them tick.

 

The first thing is, what kind of shape are you in? And what is your style like. If you are in really good shape and have a simple but current style (ie don't try to hard), I think you become much more attractive to younger girls than if you're either out of shape or clearly trying to hard to look sweet (or worse, both). I think it's important when you're a little older to look good and look current but without being obnoxious about it or like you're putting effort into it. Be cool....but don't try to be cool.

 

Ok, that gets your foot in the door.

 

Next, you have to perfect the art of being inclusive and accessible to them, but at the same time, not caring about them. For instance, in my classes, we're always working in partners/groups. So, in that situation, I will be very engaged with a girl, have conversations, treat them as equals, etc. I show interest (lots of eye contact, listening to them talk, validating them) without seeming outwardly interested in them. In other words, I project vaguely that I could, maybe, possibly be interested, but don't give anything that gives it away. So, when class is over, I just leave. I don't wait around and try to chit chat or try to set something up outside of class. I just take off.

 

Ok, you do this for awhile. You build the rapport, and the trust, and you subtly hint that there's a little attraction there. That gets them wanting you.

 

For example, with me, I always end up with these girl's numbers, as we collaborate on projects. Again, I'm not after these girls, even though many of them are totally hot. So I'm not trying to make anything happen. But anyway, we'll text back and forth, and at some point, we have more personal conversations. Inevitably, one of these girls will get drunk and end up texting me asking if I'm attracted to them or if I would ever consider going out with somebody her age or in some way or another, tip her hand. If I were one who was interested in that age bracket, I wod be killin it. I've had some pretty interesting conversations once these girls have gotten to know me.

 

Anyway, I think the point is, you almost have to instantly friendzone them FIRST. Girls in general can't handle that, and young girls really can't handle it. Then just play it cool.

[Outsider77]

Well, I'm lucky in that I've never been considered boring by those I've dated...younger and older. Question for you. When you say you were interested in much older men, did you have physical interest in them? Did you ever date one even very casually and if so, were you intimate?

 

From a young age I was interested in older men but it wasn't really physical attraction for those that were middle-aged or older.

 

When I was in my early teens until early twenties I flirted and had non-physical relationships with many, many older men. Like guys in their 40s and 50s. But I was never physically attracted to them. I was just having fun with it. But I always thought of them as pathetic and not relationship material. There was a middle-aged, divorced guy who was begging me to move in with him when I was in my late teens. I thought he was a joke.

 

The oldest though that I got intimate with was only 10 years older and I was only 16. So yeah, at that age guys in their twenties and thirties were considerably older than me and still physically attractive.

 

I think a lot of men have the misconception that as they age they are more physically attractive than women their age, because younger women are still interested in them. What they don't realize is that the younger women are usually interested in them because they are more experienced, because they have money, or because the girls have daddy issues. Also, women aren't as motivated by physical attraction as men are. They are able to look past a lot more imperfections if the man has something they want.

 

And a lot of younger girls flirt with and date older men because they like having power over them, and because they want to see if they can. Kind of like how some women go after married men.I think it's very rare for a younger woman to be genuinely interested in LTR with a much older man for the right reasons.

 

I'm a bit older now, but I still have middle-aged guys interested in me. I would consider having a relationship with a guy 15 years older or so, but if I knew that he had a history of dating much younger women I would not date him. I would only seriously date someone who was dating me for me, not because I was the right age. Besides, if a guy only likes women of a certain age, what happens when the woman he is with is no longer the age he likes? Even if the girl is considerably younger, at some point he would no longer be satisfied with her.

 

I think if you are only interested in a casual relationship, you won't have much trouble. But it would be difficult for you to have a serious relationship with a girl of that age. Make sure that you let the girls know right away that you are interested in them. Because if they just want to be friends and you hit on them later, it's likely they'll just think you are creepy. It's happened to me a few times.

[EasyHeart]

I think if you are only interested in a casual relationship, you won't have much trouble. But it would be difficult for you to have a serious relationship with a girl of that age. Make sure that you let the girls know right away that you are interested in them. Because if they just want to be friends and you hit on them later, it's likely they'll just think you are creepy. It's happened to me a few times.

I think this is an important point. And it doesn't really matter how old you are.

 

We have so many threads in this forum about men pretending to be friends with women in order to get in their pants and threads about women pissed off that the men they thought were friends are now trying to get in their pants. That stuff may work in romcoms, but it doesn't work in real life.

 

I think 80% of the problems in the dating world would go away if people were just honest with each other. And yes, being honest means that men are going to get rejected (a lot!) and that women are going to have to directly reject men that are interested in them, even if it makes the women uncomfortable to hurt the guy's feelings.

 

All this game playing and trickery that both genders seem to think is not only normal but desirable is what takes all the fun out of dating.

[hotpotato]

Try dating older women. That should help.

 

I dated older men. I was 20 and he was 36, not 45 though.

 

I'm 26 and still not interested in 46 year old men, he'd have to be a bodybuilder.

 

They have standards. You have standards,too, obviously, if you are not chasing 45 year old women.

 

You're just getting older and more even less attractive to younger women. It wont get better. I had a 55 60 year old man try to get in my pants after feigning friendship. I thought that was gross on many levels.

[hotpotato]

you just playd your hand. bodybuilding is your weakness.

 

There was once a guy I talked to.

 

He was 45. He had the body and face of a 25 year old. No, better than most 25 year olds. Only difference was he was a little salt and pepper. He was quite well off.

 

For anybody male or female who wants to date significantly younger people, you pretty much have to be exceptional in some way.

[StanMusial]

From a young age I was interested in older men but it wasn't really physical attraction for those that were middle-aged or older.

 

When I was in my early teens until early twenties I flirted and had non-physical relationships with many, many older men. Like guys in their 40s and 50s. But I was never physically attracted to them. I was just having fun with it. But I always thought of them as pathetic and not relationship material. There was a middle-aged, divorced guy who was begging me to move in with him when I was in my late teens. I thought he was a joke.

 

Hmmm, this says as much about you, as it does them.

 

I think a lot of men have the misconception that as they age they are more physically attractive than women their age, because younger women are still interested in them. What they don't realize is that the younger women are usually interested in them because they are more experienced, because they have money, or because the girls have daddy issues. Also, women aren't as motivated by physical attraction as men are. They are able to look past a lot more imperfections if the man has something they want.

 

I'm not sure where you're going with this... wouldn't that mean that men would have a wider age range for dating as they get older than women?

 

 

And a lot of younger girls flirt with and date older men because they like having power over them, and because they want to see if they can.

 

I think the girls who would do this, would do this with men of any age. I learned early just to walk away or if I didn't have anything better to do and a little free time I might hang around and play along just for fun.

[youaremysunshine]

I'm 22 and I'm dating a 27 year old so I don't think it's impossible for women to go for older men. It's not a physical attraction unfortunately. He looks old for his age and can't keep up to the guys I'm used to in bed.

 

But he can offer me love, affection, stability and maybe someday a family. It's too soon to know though, because I have no idea what I am going to be like when I'm that age.

 

At 22, a persons sense of self is still in flux, they are not fully formed. Your twenties is about not knowing what you want. Even my boyfriend and I, only 5 years apart are lightyears apart in terms of life stage (I haven't even picked my major and he's finishing his PH.D)

 

The generational difference between 22 and 45 is mind boggling. 45 year old had never even heard of the Internet at my age! The world is a scarier place for our generation.With an age gap that large their is really no common experiences. It's like you are from two different cultures.

 

Not saying it can't work but it's not as though 30 years makes no difference in what a person wants and expects from a partner, and what their values are and what their stressors are and their day to day experience of life is.

[youaremysunshine]

And unfortunately I can't offer you any advice on how to avoid the friend zone. We were just friends for 6 years while I traveled, partied and dated men my own age. Never even considered him anything but a kindly "grown up"

[theothersully]

youaremysunshine: Maybe you just hit on something. Saying a 45 (or just about 40yr old) hasn't heard of the internet when they were your age is exactly it...

 

In my own case, I was on dialup as a child, which then shortly became the internet. I started snowboarding as a child. I have listened to EDM since the first round of it, even though I go to festivals with girls in this round.

 

Possibly, us older guys who date younger women just aren't that old....inside.

 

I had an 18 yo unable to believe my age this summer. She was a girl I was seeing's sister - girl was 22. She said, "you seem the same age as me. young inside." Thus might be why some of us gravitate toward the younger women. I know I am always seeking to learn, pick up on what is new and the latest. Younger people give us that and we aren't so far apart because we have all the same interests. One of the younger guys at this same party with the 18 yo was a new doctor. He thought I was 27... a doctor.

 

So maybe sharing similar interests is part of it all. I frequently break new edm artists and tracks to my younger friends that then become popular. I'm out ahead of a lot of trends. Still. They end up thinking I'm more with it than the guys their age.

 

Food for thought. Maybe some of us older guys just plain get along better with younger people.

 

PS- this doesn't pertain only to women!! I don't really like to kick it with guys, but if I am in that situation, I much prefer to talk with younger guys too. It's just plain more interesting.

[youaremysunshine]

Yeah, i guess i shouldnt sterotype all older guys as beeing bland and conservative and wildly out of touch with the reality of young people's lives. I'm into punk music and their is a credibility factor that scene veterans have that I admire. I regularly get ask to after parties by guys who have been playing in the bands for 30 years. They are a part of punk history and inspire the music of today!

 

Still don't want to have sex with them though... And I hope by the time I'm that age I'm not still playing the same 3 chords trying to recapture my "glory days" by having sex with people 1/3 my age

[youaremysunshine]

Also, theothersully: were any of these friends you made at electric dance music festivals high on MDMA or some other empathogenic drug du jour?

 

I used to love that stuff but it really messes with your judgement.

[theothersully]

That's definitely a scene with some older people. I respect that music. I never did get to go to CBGBs because it was closed down by the time I lived in that 'hood, but I would have loved to. Don't know new punk. Just remember taking a leak with that Sum41 guy at an MTV new years party one time. They were calling that punk at the time, but I'm betting you wouldn't'.

 

 

stereotyping is ok... but i think you hit on it. Those who date younger probably have more in common with younger people than older ones.

 

Snapchat? Started that last year. Instagram? Yup. Stuff like that.

[Mascara]

I still feel 18. It's a continual shock when I look in the mirror and see a 42 year old woman looking back. Because of the nature of my job, I tend to be fairly aware of latest trends. My background is the music industry, so I probably know more about that than your average 25 year old. As a young adult, I danced at illegal raves and have a hazy memory of dodgy substances.

 

I enjoy the company of younger people because I'm around them a lot. I still can't see myself dating one though. Not seriously anyway. And I can't see any of them wanting anything to do with me, beyond either a bit of fun, or as someone with a few interesting tales to tell and is pretty aware of what's going on, on a musical/pop culture level. In their eyes, I'm still 42.

[theothersully]

Also, theothersully: were any of these friends you made at electric dance music festivals high on MDMA or some other empathogenic drug du jour?

 

I used to love that stuff but it really messes with your judgement.

 

Ha ha ha.... yes, they must have been deranged to want to rage with me... lol

 

Just giving you a hard time.

 

No, I * brought * these people to this particular party. A very small venue where we saw R3hab. I know it's not your genre, but it was one of the best parties of the year. I was in the know, I brought a group of people ranging from 18 to 24. They loved it, have pictures up on Instagram of it, still talk about it and I brought them (and others) to several more things going on, not all music related.

[theothersully]

I still feel 18. It's a continual shock when I look in the mirror and see a 42 year old woman looking back. Because of the nature of my job, I tend to be fairly aware of latest trends. My background is the music industry, so I probably know more about that than your average 25 year old. As a young adult, I danced at illegal raves and have a hazy memory of dodgy substances.

 

I enjoy the company of younger people because I'm around them a lot. I still can't see myself dating one though. Not seriously anyway. And I can't see any of them wanting anything to do with me, beyond either a bit of fun, or as someone with a few interesting tales to tell and is pretty aware of what's going on, on a musical/pop culture level. In their eyes, I'm still 42.

 

You'd be surprised!! If you are in shape, have a little bit of a budget for fun and are as with it as you are saying, tons of younger guys would go for you. Really! Some of the guys in those younger bracket have this fantasy to date an older woman. A significant number of them. This is a bit of a trend in the states. I've had younger guys at raves ask me if I knew any older women for them. ha ha ha It's not just one way gender wise.

 

And ahhhh.... to remember the real, old school raves... illegal and in warehouses. Clean the sound system up and leave the place. That was just a little more cool than the organized ones they have now, I have to say...