simsim Posted October 10, 2013 Posted October 10, 2013 Hi, I feel like I've learned a lot about the dating mentalities of both genders from this site. One thing that I have always struggled with is what general expectations are in regards to money and sex. I'm 28 years old and have just had 2 consecutive 4 year relationships. Both relationships were physical from the beginning. It went from "hanging out" to sex in a matter of days and then it would just be constant hanging-out, thus just sort of sliding into a pseudo-relationship that eventually we'd agree was "official". I'm a very giving person by nature and love to do things for my significant other, and have a hard time receiving. In both relationships I probably paid for 75% of all activities together, going out to eat, movies etc. They never ASKED me to spend money on them, but they never ever wanted to do anything (because they were the fatal combo of homebodies + being dirt poor, I just felt like to have a normal relationship we needed to go out SOMETIMES). Both of my exes tended to be lazy, and when we'd live together and they'd lose their job it would take way too long for them to find another one. Going to work everyday and coming home to a boyfriend who would be sprawled out playing video games for hours upon hours is just demoralizing. After awhile I began to understand that all my coddling and all my "let me take care of the check, baby" had given them the green light to put forth minimal effort. It was also, I concede, a way of gaining control in a relationship. Well control eventually didn't matter, I'd get burnt out on the behavior and little by little lost attraction and respect, eventually culminating in a messy breakup. And they WERE messy - these dudes didn't do anything wrong per se, never mistreated me, I simply lost attraction because I was too scared to REALLY let them know how big of a deal it was for me to feel some reciprocation or like they were putting forth effort. I wanted them to LOVE me enough to KNOW that it was important to me to make little efforts here and there, I didn't want to have to TELL them exactly what I wanted (lol, I know, huge male-female cliché). They'd be willing to work on it then, of course, but by that point I'd already emotionally detached. Since my breakups I've taken a step back and realized I needed to fix my self esteem before getting into another relationship, and to give up the need for control that has proven to be toxic to both of my past ones. So anyways (forgive my rambling setup lol) I met a guy at the park a few weeks ago. Charming, southern accent, gives off that vibe of being super nice without BEING a "nice guy" (ladies you know what I'm talking about). He took me out last week for a couple beers, it was so fun! We both discovered we love fantasy football and science and a lot of the same books, shows, and movies. He has a good career and generally seems fun and grounded. When I went to pay for my beers he waved me off and said "don't worry about it!" Mentally I note these things, like, ****...ok, well now I definitely have to kiss him goodnight. But it wasn't like that. He thanked me for a wonderful evening and said goodbye. We texted over the next few days and I resisted asking him out to a bar (haha needless to say I'm used to jumping in the sack early). But I held off and on Monday he invited out to a movie Tuesday night. So I'm thinking, for sure I'm at least paying for MY ticket, I mean I don't expect this guy to pay my crazy $17 ticket. I pulled out my cash and he told me he already bought the tickets online. I was shocked. I won't lie, it made me feel good, and flattered, but WEIRD. Immediately I'm trying to figure out what this guy is expecting. Thoughts flash through my head of how far I'm willing to go tonight. When we hugged goodbye, I lingered, and he didn't. It actually seemed like he was TRYING to keep a physical distance. No kiss. That drove me nuts (in a bad...and good? way?). We texted a little, he said he had a wonderful time and asked me out for next week. So now I've officially been on the only 2 dates of my life where I was paid for AND didn't have to put out. I'm getting that panicky feeling of loss of control...the feeling that usually goes away the moment things turn sexual. But there hasn't been ANYTHING sexual or anything that could escalate things, not even a hand-on-the-leg. Just cute flirty banter and an apparent desire to "treat" me on our dates. It's like we're 16. Don't I owe him something? I've thanked him profusely...probably too much. I feel an insane urge to go out and buy him something nice, give him a handjob, SOMETHING. But he doesn't seem to expect anything from me and now I'm going crazy trying to figure out his ulterior motive(s). The girls at work tell me I'm CRAZY and to just enjoy letting a man pay for me, but I can't let go of this awful feeling of not "pulling my weight." I find that I am unclear on the "normal" ways of doing things. Has anyone else felt like this in the early stages of dating?
soccerrprp Posted October 10, 2013 Posted October 10, 2013 SimSim, Take it easy! This is good. You should be relieved that you are seeing someone like this with what you've experienced. Take things one date at a time, but if it's really bothering you, perhaps, in a future date and he's not made a move, YOU could ask him for a kiss? I must admit, if I like a girl a lot, I ask for a kiss on the first date. It's just me, but that doesn't mean that you or she owes me anything. This is good for you and don't ever feel you owe any guy anything regardless of how much he's paid for meals, etc. Good luck. 2
kassy Posted October 10, 2013 Posted October 10, 2013 He sounds like a great guy who genuinely seems to enjoy your company. I'm pretty independent and financially well off and struggle sometimes not to be comfortable having someone pay for me. I've found that what works well for me is if he buys the movie tickets, I'll buy the snacks etc he buys dinner I get the post dinner drinks. You get the drift. If he insists on paying then I go with it too. But by the 4th date I will insist on paying something. In saying all of that, you don't owe him anything. It isn't a big deal. You definitely don't owe him anything sexual. He probably would like to get that ball rolling but let him lead and only do what you are comfortable with not because you feel you owe it to him. It seems he wants to take his time and get to know you and see where things go. He sounds great, take it slow, roll with the punches and don't rush the sex side of things. Have fun! 1
tricolors Posted October 10, 2013 Posted October 10, 2013 Good for you. You've found someone decent. I've been with my girlfriend for almost seven months now. I knew her for around 5 or 6 weeks before we first went out. I wanted to show her I was really interested in her (as a human being, not just a sexual object) so I didn't even attempt to kiss her for a long time. Our very first date, I bought us tickets to a show that were a combined $200 (she paid for dinner that night.) A few weeks after our first date, it was a big number birthday for her, so I bought her and her family $200 worth of specialty food from her home country in Europe. We'd only been on a handful of outings by that point. She also treated me to various things, paid for dinners, activities, etcetera. I never tried to even kiss her for a long time...we didn't even hold hands until the same day we kissed for the first time...I want to say this was about...six or seven weeks after our first date? We didn't have sex until about a month after that, going on almost three months after our first date. I never expected (or wanted) anything more out of her than her friendship, now I have much more, after being patient. So don't think this guy is looking for anything more, either.
tlegend Posted October 10, 2013 Posted October 10, 2013 I find it hilarious that with today's society, courtship is found to be surprising! He's courting you! Enjoy it. This is what dating was/is supposed to be like! 4
Ninjainpajamas Posted October 10, 2013 Posted October 10, 2013 Maybe you were an "escort" in a past life. Hopefully the "nice guys" are paying attention again...guy who is putting out time, energy, respect and she's feeling "confused" about it, if he would have tried to bang her and being successful everything would have been fine. This is a good example of how a lot of guys put in a lot more effort than they really need to, to get the vag...you guys put it up on a pedestal. And then she wonders why she ended up with the "losers". 2
MalachiX Posted October 10, 2013 Posted October 10, 2013 (edited) You don't owe him anything. If he's treating you it's because he wants to. If you'd like to do something for him then think of a casual/low-cost thing that you can treat to. You never owe a guy sex. Unless you make him watch a chick flick of course. Any man who's forced to watch Dear John, How To Lose a Guy in 10 Days, or any film with Sally Field deserves sex in return. We're never getting those two hours of our lives back so the least a woman can do is make it worth while Edited October 10, 2013 by MalachiX 2
Author simsim Posted October 10, 2013 Author Posted October 10, 2013 (edited) Thanks so much for the feedback everyone. I'm going to turn off that paranoia and actually try to enjoy what it's like to be around someone who just seems too good to be true. Maybe you were an "escort" in a past life. Hopefully the "nice guys" are paying attention again...guy who is putting out time, energy, respect and she's feeling "confused" about it, if he would have tried to bang her and being successful everything would have been fine. This is a good example of how a lot of guys put in a lot more effort than they really need to, to get the vag...you guys put it up on a pedestal. And then she wonders why she ended up with the "losers". Off base. I DIDN'T end up with the losers, I eventually refused to be treated a certain way and dumped them. And now I'm highly interested in a nice guy and would love for things to move forward. This taking things slow feels foreign, but good. It feels like this is what things are like in the beginning of healthy, lasting relationships. If he would have tried to bang me, I would have IMMEDIATELY treated him like a FWB or casual hookup. HIM HOLDING OFF is what is making me think that there's actually relationship potential here. In my past two relationships, I didn't get into them actually PLANNING to get into one. I just went with the flow. It's highly annoying when guys complain about us not being into the "nice guys" and dating losers and *******s. No, that comes with the territory of actually wanting to be with someone who you actually DESIRE. All of us females would gladly take a man who is sweet and kind but doesn't pedestalize us and is someone we WANT TO HAVE SEX WITH. If you're not attractive to us, all the sweet **** in the world can't change that. Just like how for a lot of guys, a woman can be sweet, smart, funny, awesome in every freakin' way, but if she's fat or doesn't make his dick hard in some way, he's not interested. Really, very similar scenarios. Edited October 10, 2013 by simsim
Imajerk17 Posted October 10, 2013 Posted October 10, 2013 As I was reading this, I found myself thinking that a normal girl (hopefully) wouldn't put up with a deadbeat for 4 years, twice. I mean, you HAD to have come across an attractive guy who had his act together at least once in your 28 years. I know that wasn't the topic of this thread but it was my big thought reading this. Are you the type of person who likes taking care of people/fixing people/needs to feel needed? Anyway, your recent seems like a good guy. Enjoy. If you really want to, chip in for Date 3.
pteromom Posted October 10, 2013 Posted October 10, 2013 You don't "owe" him anything. If you feel like you want to "pull your weight", then invite HIM out for your next date, and YOU pre-buy the tickets to the movie or whatever. Take some initiative and just do it. Don't kiss him or have sex with him out of obligation. Do it when you are ready and because you really like him and want to. This sounds good so far. Just relax and get to know him.
RedRobin Posted October 10, 2013 Posted October 10, 2013 Reciprocation of interest is an individual thing. I'm with you on feeling that guys who push for sex early on aren't relationship material. The minute a guy does that, I know right away he has no respect for me and out he goes. I'm also with you on feeling I need to pull my own weight. It's something I do in every aspect of my life... or try to. I don't believe in creating or being in unbalanced relationships... taking or giving. ... but if that is how you really feel, then why would you believe you 'owe' them sex? That's the part I don't understand. Or feel the need to pay THEIR way. Isn't halfway good enough? I do get it that it seems rare these days to try and get to know someone without them immediately pushing for something physical.... it's as if they've all developed some kind of sexual Tourrette syndrome and are incapable of acting any other way or demonstrating even a little patience. Maybe you are afraid they won't stay around if you don't??
TheGuard13 Posted October 10, 2013 Posted October 10, 2013 Why are you wasting time trying to figure out what someone else is thinking? Why don't you just talk to him about what he'd like to be doing? And if you want to be intimate with him, be intimate with him. Sexual stuff can be a nice reward, but it's not something you "owe" a guy, per se. I'm beyond tired of a culture that places SO MUCH emphasis on having sex early. People shouldn't have to obsess over this kind of thing. They should be able to have sex when they feel like having sex, and act like adults about the outcome of that. Not every sexual interaction has to lead to a relationship, and not every early sexual interaction has to be the end of one. 1
Ruby Slippers Posted October 10, 2013 Posted October 10, 2013 If he would have tried to bang me, I would have IMMEDIATELY treated him like a FWB or casual hookup. HIM HOLDING OFF is what is making me think that there's actually relationship potential here. Men generally feel the same way. Early feelings that build toward love are more likely to blossom when the man and the woman have plenty of time to get to know each other as people before getting naked. Even though we all tend to crave sex fast because we're animals driven by our animal desires, if you want love, it's best to wait a while. It fulfills a man to provide a good time for a woman. You being there and being appreciative of what he is providing also fulfills him. That's thanks enough.
runningfar Posted October 10, 2013 Posted October 10, 2013 to get the vag... ...why, aren't you the charmer
todreaminblue Posted October 10, 2013 Posted October 10, 2013 when i was younger and actually dated guys i allowed a few guys to pay for my drinks and get my drinks.........oen guy was agressive when he took me home and wanted more......the other guy slipped em a mickey while getting my drink i actually dont react well to drugs.......since that occasion i never let a guy get me a drink not even water or a soda......and i go dutch to avoid confusion...in fact i will trun it around and pay the whole tab...if they seem to try and dominate me......a lot of guys who wanted to date me i know in my heart what they wanted....something i wasnt willing to give them so ...i am a bit hesitant to let them pay when it comes to that obligation they expect for paying for a meal for me......i do actually know men not such a good thing have learned by experience.....most of it sexual.......i can read them...that is unless i really like them.,......and then i cant read crap..... i think if met a guy who i felt totally safe with.........i wouldnt mind if he offered to pay and not be so defensive..i have actually wrestled for a bill....and yep deb won...you never know......i can hope....one day i am glad you found a guy who did this for you .....gives me hope too...hugs and the best of luck and happiness to you....deb
Phoe Posted October 10, 2013 Posted October 10, 2013 OP, I can understand what you must be going through mentally right now. In my past relationship I was the one doing the majority of the paying/working/giving, and if I ever had a guy who just flat out paid for the dates and was genuine about it I'd probably feel very stunned. I'd offer to pay my half, or say it would be my treat next time, or something like that, just like you feel. I wouldn't necessarily feel like I didn't have "control", but moreso uncomfortable like the guy might start to feel resentment towards me if he was spending money on me. I think the best thing to do is continue to be appreciative and thankful. You can offer of course, as I'm sure you will, but as long as you continue to show you appreciate his generosity I'm sure he will be happy!
Phoe Posted October 10, 2013 Posted October 10, 2013 Maybe you were an "escort" in a past life. Hopefully the "nice guys" are paying attention again...guy who is putting out time, energy, respect and she's feeling "confused" about it, if he would have tried to bang her and being successful everything would have been fine. This is a good example of how a lot of guys put in a lot more effort than they really need to, to get the vag...you guys put it up on a pedestal. And then she wonders why she ended up with the "losers". The vibe I got from OP isn't "confusion" in the sense that she doesn't know how she feels about a guy who's treating her nice, she obviously likes the guy just fine, it's moreso she doesn't quite know what kind of behavior is expected from her in response to such kindness and generosity. It's like, does she need to DO something? Take some kind of action? Or just sit back and accept it all with gratitude? I know I wouldn't quite know what to do. I know if I ever had a guy treating me that nicely I'd worry that he'd resent me if I didn't do something as generous back for him. 1
Eivuwan Posted October 11, 2013 Posted October 11, 2013 It seems obvious to me that you have never been treated well by a man and used to be comfortable with people who cannot really fulfill you. Now that someone who meets minimum expectations of being a gentlemen comes along you cannot believe that you can be treated this well. You should never feel that you have to owe sex to someone. You are not a prostitute. Just enjoy this man and try not to repeat patterns in your previous relationships with people. I would advise seeing a therapist to work on these feelings you have of having to pay someone with sex or money to keep them in your life. Good luck. 1
phineas Posted October 11, 2013 Posted October 11, 2013 OP will probably end up friendzoning the guy. 1
RedRobin Posted October 11, 2013 Posted October 11, 2013 Isn't it a shame though? Alot of women are so use to men not always being very nice or men that have the agenda to simply get sex instead of enjoying us as another human being, that when one does actually treat us with true value, we have no clue how to act? We don't want him to think we are taking advantage of him and we want to show how much we appreciate it but society tells us the only way we can do that is through sex. It's tough all around. What is a shame is being called a man basher or a man hater if we insist on being treated like human beings first... How dare we??! When all most of us are asking for is just a little respect and common decency.
todreaminblue Posted October 11, 2013 Posted October 11, 2013 Isn't it a shame though? Alot of women are so use to men not always being very nice or men that have the agenda to simply get sex instead of enjoying us as another human being, that when one does actually treat us with true value, we have no clue how to act? We don't want him to think we are taking advantage of him and we want to show how much we appreciate it but society tells us the only way we can do that is through sex. It's tough all around. so true...had to repeat ...i dont give sex but i have felt the implied need that sex is expected........i do know there are guys who dotn do this.....who would liek to pay fo ra woman just to show they like her and appreciate her comapny...is that old fashioned......i think it is...but it is beautiful ...just hard to believe sometimes..a guy i wrestled for th ebill..i wasnt joking you know....i actually arm locked him for the bill because i got anxious.....he gave in ......because he saw how anxious i was about paying...i wasnt mucking aROUND trying to get the bill ...i needed that bill....and i needed to pay....deb 2
TB Rhine Posted October 11, 2013 Posted October 11, 2013 You never "owe" a man sex; rather, you owe him the courtesy of being respectful of his money and time, and the compassion of an honest rejection if your expectations about the relationship are not in line with his. I view it this way; if you spend a lot of time with a man, then you are spending his time. If you know he wants romance out of the situation and you don't feel the same way, you owe him the respect and consideration of ending the relationship before he spends an *inordinate* amount of his time pointlessly pursuing you. Likewise, if said man is paying for most of the activities you engage in - especially if you are cash-poor yourself, essentially putting him in the position of having no choice but to spend money, if he wants to be able to hang out with you - then you are spending his money. Like the earlier scenario, it's incumbent upon you to be honest about where you are at emotionally, and not allow him to spend an inordinate amount of his hard-earned money wining and dining you if it's just not gonna happen. There's no mathematical formula, no hard-and-fast line where if you spend x amount of time with a guy, or allow him to spend y amount of money on you, you either sleep with him or are taking advantage of him. It's just the kind of thing where you have to follow the dictates of your own conscience. 1
moonracer Posted October 11, 2013 Posted October 11, 2013 (edited) There is something that I'd like to share that I think not enough women are aware of and that is that when all is said and done it's your opinion of the guy that matters the most and not his opinion of you. If he doesn't like you then so be it; he'll break up, you'll cry and then move on and find someone else--we don't always have control over that part. But if you don't like him then all that effort you originally put into romance / courtship will be a waste of time. Right now it sounds like this guy really likes you, so he doesn't want to get physical too soon. In many cultures outside the US (like in Asia and South America) this is the norm. Usually two people take some time to get to know each other before hitting the sack. In fact, many people decide that they want a relationship first before they are intimate with each other. A guy who really likes you will not pressure you for sex. If he does then it's a glaring sign that he only wants sex and/or doesn't care about your feelings. We can follow a more traditional courtship style and that is our right as women. You don't owe him anything. Let him take you out and pay for meals because that is what a guy who really likes you wants to do. If he is not doing that then he doesn't deserve your time and the energy that you put into looking good for him (it takes A LOT of work to dress up and look nice). In the end if this guy didn't go out of his way to treat you well and pay for you, you're going to leave him, like the other lazy exes. So don't train him to enjoy a free ride at your expense by paying for your meals, tickets, or doing everything yourself. Because if you change him you will end up leaving him just like you left the others. If you really feel uncomfortable being treated to everything then go dutch and pay for half but never exceed that half or you'll end up doing more than half the share of work in the relationship too. Then you'll be back at square one. Edited October 11, 2013 by moonracer 2
tylerj Posted October 11, 2013 Posted October 11, 2013 It's a strange situation to be confused about, at least in my experience. Anyhow, here's my male perspective. When I take a girl out for a first date, realistically it is just a way of learning more about her, and gauging whether there is a mutual attraction, both physically and mentally. If you know someone well before the first date, things are obviously different, but in a couple scenario people do behave differently anyhow, so it is that initial 'getting to know you' phase. There is almost an unwritten rule that 'gentlemen' pay, especially early on, although that perception has changed over time. Still, traditional men will adhere to that rule. There is no expectation of what we want in return, simply put we just want to get to know you and establish whether we like you. Again, more gentlemanly men won't rush to initiate contact, especially if they're really enjoying getting to know you. I think guys also feel that 'leaving a girl wanting more' is a good thing, provided you don't end up friendzones. It could also be that he's not made a move because he's a) shy, or b) worried about getting rejected. Are you giving him the right signs? Standing close to him? Being a bit touchy / feely with him? Anyway; you need to get a kiss by date three at the latest, and at this pace I'd expect sex by date six. Don't be shy of making the move for the first kiss, he will like that. 1
Els Posted October 11, 2013 Posted October 11, 2013 Immediately I'm trying to figure out what this guy is expecting. Thoughts flash through my head of how far I'm willing to go tonight. When we hugged goodbye, I lingered, and he didn't. It actually seemed like he was TRYING to keep a physical distance. No kiss. That drove me nuts (in a bad...and good? way?). We texted a little, he said he had a wonderful time and asked me out for next week. So now I've officially been on the only 2 dates of my life where I was paid for AND didn't have to put out. I'm getting that panicky feeling of loss of control...the feeling that usually goes away the moment things turn sexual. But there hasn't been ANYTHING sexual or anything that could escalate things, not even a hand-on-the-leg. Just cute flirty banter and an apparent desire to "treat" me on our dates. It's like we're 16. Don't I owe him something? I've thanked him profusely...probably too much. I feel an insane urge to go out and buy him something nice, give him a handjob, SOMETHING. But he doesn't seem to expect anything from me and now I'm going crazy trying to figure out his ulterior motive(s). The girls at work tell me I'm CRAZY and to just enjoy letting a man pay for me, but I can't let go of this awful feeling of not "pulling my weight." I find that I am unclear on the "normal" ways of doing things. Has anyone else felt like this in the early stages of dating? I think you're allowing your previous bad experiences to cloud your current good one. Like carrying baggage around, you've been treated poorly in the past, so you're now extra suspicious. There is nothing wrong with going into a R with your eyes wide open, but don't make your current R suffer for the misdeeds of men long past, girl. Just relax, enjoy his company, and appreciate being taken out and treated. You do not ever 'owe' someone sex, and IMO, if you act like you think you do, it will drive the good guys away because only losers and players are happy to 'get' sex from women who are doing it for that reason. Men who are truly capable of loving you for you, don't want a woman to have sex with them just because she feels 'obligated' to. If you really, really, REALLY don't feel comfortable being treated, just treat him the next time you two go out, and take turns from then onwards. 1
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