Not believing in evolution -- dealbreaker?

[serial muse]

As a man who has been married many years AND with children, I can say that the major issues didn't really become issues until we began raising children.

 

Thankfully, we DO agree on most, and I knew that going into the marriage.

 

But I think most couples can overlook major issues when they do not have children. When the children come along (assuming they do), then when you see your spouse teaching "your" children ideals that you fundamentally disagree with (or vice versa), then those issues that "we will agree to disagree" become huge hurdles to overcome.

 

Honestly, the fact that you made this thread says to me that you should part ways with this guy before you become to emotionally involved.

 

This (the bolded) is a very good point.

[soccerrprp]

He grew up in a rural area of the South and I could always tell our different backgrounds would make for some contrasting political/religious views.

 

I can accept most of our differences. We don't talk about them much and when they come up it's usually through interesting debate. But ... it came out this weekend that he doesn't believe in evolution and I was pretty appalled. Don't even know if I can accept it. I'll be completely honest at the risk of sounding snobbish/unfair -- I think this is touching on some of my fears/prejudices of "The South."

 

Since we have only skimmed the surface in our different belief systems, I fear this is just the tip of the iceberg and we should probably cut loose now.

 

Going back to your original post, I find it interesting that evolution, not political views mean more to you. You were able to accept most of the political differences (am I wrong?) which DIRECTLY impact human lives and fundamental view of humanity than evolutions does really. I do believe this is snobbish and peculiarly selective. But we have our own belief systems, however rational or irrational or consistent.

 

Look, I believe in evolution too, but I find it difficult to swallow and listen to people who are willing to compromise on political (possibly social) views, but hold such, less rational views on evolution so strongly.

 

Your strong words of "accept", "appalled" and "fear" seem pretty clear that you need to move on.

Edited October 7, 2013 by soccerrprp

[thishatteredsymphony]

My ex was a proponent of the "just a theory" hogwash. She felt there was evidence to support it, but because it was "theory" it wasn't based on any real fact. She also completely misunderstood what evolution actually means (which is even made more bizzare by the fact her mom is a retired high school biology teacher -- although, then AGAIN her mom taught a creationist type of biology).

 

Looking back on everything I realize this is something I clashed heavily with her on. I wanted to overlook it but now I know in the future I really can't.

 

To me, it's one thing if you don't understand the theory -- I sure as hell don't completely understand it, but when you blatantly deny the conclusions and mix up real scientific theory with the term's everyday definition, that really bothers me.

[AMusing]

There is no way I could be in a relationship with someone who didn't accept the theory of evolution. There is no way I could respect his beliefs. Besides, I want kids one day, and god help anyone who tried to instill an anti-evolution or "creationist" viewpoint in my future children.

 

I could see dating someone who'd never been exposed to the theory (or been poorly taught it, so lacks understanding) but was open to learning about it. But it is simply baffling to me that someone could willfully ignore the plethora of evidence, and I would see it as a sign that his mode of understanding the world is not based in science, logic, or evidence. That would be a huge deal breaker for me.

[SoleMate]

Rejecting the overwhelmingly convincing evidence for evolution would just have me scratching my head over what goes on in HIS head. How does he reconcile all the scientific evidence and the powerfully predictive theories with his rejection of the logical conclusion? Does he cling to his faith in creation so strongly that there is no evidence that could convince that evolution is more likely than not? What exactly is he putting on the other side of the scale that is outweighing all his formal education in modern biology? Is is sheer faith?

 

It's not necessarily a belief in evolution per se that I require in a mate. The primary requirement is for rational, data-driven decision making and an open and inquiring mind that is willing to change based on powerful evidence and reasoning. Does he reject all forms of science? Where does he get his beliefs - from his church elders, or a certain TV channel?

[Standard-Fare]

I think I agree that I need to break up with this guy. We've had a somewhat light, semi-long distance relationship for the last five months and the time has come to decide whether this gets serious. I see too many big differences in our viewpoints for this to continue. And honestly this has affected my attraction to him recently as well.

 

It's definitely hard though, because he's really a sweetheart and he's treated me with more kindness than any guy I've ever dated. After being with a couple "difficult" aloof guys in the past (like, the type who can fall off the face of the earth on you for a few days without thinking much of it), this has been such a welcome change of pace.

 

I also know our breakup conversation will be difficult. I know he feels that we can work with our differences and have healthy debates, etc. He doesn't understand that some of his values/viewpoints come across as ignorant to me and I certainly can't phrase it that way.

[soccerrprp]

My ex was a proponent of the "just a theory" hogwash. She felt there was evidence to support it, but because it was "theory" it wasn't based on any real fact.

 

She felt that there was evidence to support it but it wasn't based on real fact? So, she believed that the evidence was not real? Interesting...

 

She also completely misunderstood what evolution actually means (which is even made more bizzare by the fact her mom is a retired high school biology teacher -- although, then AGAIN her mom taught a creationist type of biology).

 

Evolution is an easy topic to avoid. There are plenty of biology teachers who don't believe in evolution b/c it is not readily observable. The idea that human beings evolved from monkeys and apes is even more frightening and difficult to swallow. Some scientists, doctors, science teachers don't "see" a connection to the "theory" of evolution and how it greatly influences our understanding of basic biological, species principles and practices.

 

It's not as straight-forward as evolutionists make it to be.

[EasyHeart]

I wouldn't break up with someone because we have one single difference in opinion, but I suspect that someone who believed in creationism and I would have lots of differences in opinion.

 

Something like that wouldn't matter much in dating, but it would probably have a big impact on how we raise our children.

[deathandtaxes]

I can't speak much for the coastal south, but where I live, good ol Music City, Tennessee, there are large pockets of educated lefties. I'm a zen-leaning atheist and avoid religious chicks like the plague. Cuz I know at the end of the day, I'm just not gonna be happy.

[Grumpybutfun]

But ultimately I think his background is just too strong to overcome.

 

This^^

 

I love the south, I live in the south, southern by birth, but I would never want to live my life with a spouse with these beliefs you speak of. I have never been much of a follower and don't respect people who are. Science isn't a subject which causes doubt (except amongst people who believe in doctrines only,) but religion is a subject which always causes doubt...that is why they talk about theories (scientific, contemplative, analytical, logical) as opposed to beliefs (emotional, acceptance on faith, true to individual through doctrine.) Marriage of the two is highly unorthodox and will only serve to cross each other out. ( Respectful of religious freedom so not attacking the indoctrinated here.)

No one can tell you what you need to do, but the fact is that if you are seeing his belief system as something you cannot respect, then it is prudent to listen to your gut.

Way Down in the land of gators,

Grumps

Edited October 7, 2013 by Grumpybutfun

[Standard-Fare]

Let me refine my point about "fear/prejudices about the South." What I mean more is rural small towns in the South with a majority Christian population. That's the type of environment my boyfriend grew up in, and it inevitably shaped some of his viewpoints. Just as my upbringing in urban environments in the Northeast shaped MY views.

 

I should add that neither of us want kids so that concern is irrelevant. I do see how that end goal would heighten our differences and make this situation a more obvious dealbreaker.

 

Even as is, though, I don't know if I can get past the evolution thing (and everything else that might entail).

[deathandtaxes]

You're not going to get past it. It's a very fundamental difference in your worldviews. You'll be better off in the long run finding somebody way more compatible.

[runningfar]

For those of you who believe in evolution – as in Darwinism, humans descended from apes – would you even CONSIDER dating someone who didn't?

 

I grew up in the Northeast U.S., college-educated there, etc., and haven't even had to deal with this viewpoint before. Unfortunately, I've now discovered it in the man I'm dating.

 

During the warm-weather months, I spend a lot of time in a coastal area of the South. This year I started a romance there. The guy is sweet, charming, and very kind to me. He grew up in a rural area of the South and I could always tell our different backgrounds would make for some contrasting political/religious views.

 

I can accept most of our differences. We don't talk about them much and when they come up it's usually through interesting debate. But ... it came out this weekend that he doesn't believe in evolution and I was pretty appalled. Don't even know if I can accept it. I'll be completely honest at the risk of sounding snobbish/unfair -- I think this is touching on some of my fears/prejudices of "The South."

 

Since we have only skimmed the surface in our different belief systems, I fear this is just the tip of the iceberg and we should probably cut loose now.

 

Oh absolutely. It's indicative of such a different approach to everything. I wouldn't date somebody who didn't believe in evolution.

[ChessPieceFace]

Either you can accept a belief in god, or you can't. If you can't, you shouldn't have wasted your time with a non-atheist to begin with, and that's on you. If you can, then you must also be able to accept that if a god may indeed exist, he/she/it could have made history happen however he/she/it wanted. That includes creation of all the species.

 

FWIW I think evolution is terribly flawed, at least when it comes to humans. Not even close to enough ape -> human transitional forms have ever been found. Apes are super muscular and their ribs are a totally different shape, not to mention the different number of chromosomes. In my opinion, the weight of the scientific evidence and modern and historical accounts point to an alien creation / genetic modification of humanity. Would that belief be a deal breaker for you too?

[runningfar]

point to an alien creation / genetic modification of humanity. Would that belief be a deal breaker for you too?

 

Abso-friggin-lutely.

[Skyraider829]

I find the evolution-versus-creation debate absolutely stupid and tiresome.

 

I'm certainly a pro-science individual by all means, I love science and the great feats in technology and engineering because of it and what its brought to the world. I've never been religious and consider myself "ignostic" as all the religion and dogmatic stuff has never been a part of my life and I've never been drawn to it. I get my facts from science and proven theory and evidence, not a priori belief about something that I know nothing about - objectively.

 

Also, from studying logic and structure of arguments I find pretty much all the religious arguments circular and therefore inconclusive. I like a good premise and a good conclusion, and like anyone who knows how to think critically, definite soundness in the arguments.

 

What's the big deal over biological evolution anyway? It happened. We hold ideas of how evolution happened bases upon the data we've been able to gather over time, and like anything in the life sciences, nothing is basic and simple. Over time, more evidence and data is gathered. Science can't pick up all data in one night and come to a complete conclusion the next morning. Its a nexus of research, hypothesis, testing, observation, experiment, experimental reproduction, and gathering of newer data.

The theory of evolution is all too evident, and yes, it should be questioned to better learn how it occurred, but it did happen. Ever living being comes from a natural origin, including human beings.

 

That being said, I have nothing against people who have a belief system. They're people like anyone else, and we should be intelligent enough to recognize our cultural and psychological differences and not discriminate. But, there are things that everyone can agree upon and concrete fact is one of those things. Science has it merits, if it didn't - you would have no medicine, you would have no computers, you would have no cars, or lights, or refigerators plus so many more things. So for those who say science is anything but great, well I suggest they re-focus and take a look around them. And both sides of the coin need to be taken into account, some theists (like fundamentalists and literalists) are totally intolerant of non-theists or even deists, and will go to extremes to try to "prove" their belief which is utterly inane since you cannot prove a belief to anyone outside of your own mental landscape.

 

Then you have some atheists, militant atheists or anti-theists, who are totally against those who hold theistic beliefs and will go to extremes as well to prove their points. Both parties are in the wrong here because they are missing a fundamental basis; they're all people, all human beings. Why can't they respect that basic fact and understand that hey, the world's population is widely-varied and diverse. Diversity is the spice of life and that goes not only for physical / anatomical differences, but psychological and cultural / microcultural differences as well.

Either way, where the parties also go wrong is that their motives for these clashes is more or less emotional in origins versus rational.

 

The only time when religion can be seen as a "problem" (no offense to anyone) is when the beliefs literally begin to cloud a person's judgement and reasoning abilities like someone coming out and denying concrete evidence right before their own eyes. That, I'm sorry - is ridiculous. Facts are facts, beliefs are beliefs. When people begin to mix the two up, it causes confusion. Confusion can cause contradiction, contradiction can and does usually lead to clashes.

One thing all people should be able to agree on is fact, scientific fact. That's the beauty of science, it brings knowledge and resolves dichotomy and confusion caused by too much subjectivism.

 

Overall, and this is my take on it - if two people are willing to break up over a difference in views, or the inability to respect one another's views and accept their own views and the inherent differences about them over a special bond, then frankly it seems like the person doesn't hold value to you - their beliefs and views do. Beliefs and viewpoints are only one aspect of an individual. No one is exactly the same and everyone knows that. Either be tolerant and respectful or call it off. But to me, calling it off over a difference in views which may or may not be reconcilable comes off as shallow and somewhat dispassionate.

[Mrlonelyone]

It depends on the person. Someone who is truly creative and open minded to my ideas as I am to theirs would be a match for me. Just dont try to change eachother and be open to the fact that each of you will grow as people as you, hopefully, grow as a couple.

[gaius]

I've never run into anyone who didn't have some beliefs based on emotion alone. Usually if they believe in evolution they also think the gun control fairy exists. So this whole issue seems to be more about if you would date someone who has a different set of irrational beliefs than yourself, which I would.

 

Even if I ran into the rare person that was never irrational I wouldn't enjoy their company. Someone so cerebral and passionless that they didn't let their emotions run their life in certain areas. Vulcans are not for me.

[Eclypse]

I just wouldn't be able to date someone who thought this way. I'm a scientist by education and profession, so I've been exposed to this my whole life. I'm the first to admit the theory has holes (particularly the incomplete fossil record) but new technologies through enabling us to explore DNA and genetic history has the potential to unlock the answers to all the questions we've been posing for so long. To have someone just flat out say they believe God created us out of thin air is like a slap in the face. Science is by nature inquisitive. It's why I don't take every point of evolution as gospel. It searches for answers, gathers evidence and modifies or disproves theories as new information arrives.

 

That said it would be pretty awesome of life was created by aliens and released here as long term experiment. However the concept of evolution and genetic fitness stays the same.

 

To have a partner reject that then go on teaching our kids about creationism in a biblical sense would be unacceptable.

[emva07]

for me yes, shows that he is very religious and conservative.

 

There are lots of people out there who go to church but still believe in evolution. To not even consider it at all?.........that is tooooooo conservative (and ignorant) for me. This will definitely not be the only thing you two disagree in. Southern and extremely religious??? I can't.

[charlietheginger]

A bible thumper argued evolution says man came from

rocks and non living things ...

 

 

I simply told him it says in the bible man was created from

dirt and god breathed life into it...

 

He then argued yes but god did it....

 

i responded evolution does not say how why or what

cuased evolution it simply states the process of how

it may happen.

Edited October 9, 2013 by a LoveShack.org Moderator

[lollipopspot]

The thing that saddens me about this is the underlying takeaway seems to be: "People with very different upbringings can't form successful relationships."

 

Generally maybe, but not specifically. There are people who came from very conservative religious backgrounds who manage to shake that off. Or any number of backgrounds, and come out different. Especially with the internet, young people can be exposed to so many ideas now that might have been hard to come by in the past, in their geographic area.

 

FWIW I think evolution is terribly flawed, at least when it comes to humans. Not even close to enough ape -> human transitional forms have ever been found. Apes are super muscular and their ribs are a totally different shape, not to mention the different number of chromosomes.

 

Humans ARE apes! The theory isn't "humans came from chimpanzees" anyway, but that they have a common ancestor and diverged.

 

Calling him "ignorant" (which is narrow-minded and ignorant in itself) just because he doesn't have YOUR views. That's about the epitome of arrogance.

 

I think they might be calling him ignorant not simply because he doesn't share their views, but because his views don't mesh with what is known scientifically. His views are faith based. Not every belief is equally worthy or intelligent though, is it? If I insist, "I don't think humans need to eat food, I think they can get their calories and nutrients from air" how does that sound?

[phineas]

Jeez, everyone talks about how close-minded this guy is, and yet most here are being EXACTLY that - closed-minded. Calling him "ignorant" (which is narrow-minded and ignorant in itself) just because he doesn't have YOUR views. That's about the epitome of arrogance.

 

Just because he doesn't have the same belief system as most posting here, that doesn't make him ignorant or small-minded or sub-human. When you get older and wiser, you'll see that something like this is NOT the end-all and be-all to a realtionship.

 

It's comical how those who are always preaching about "tolerance" are usually the ones that have NONE - unless you're following their agenda, of course.

 

I agree.

I find it hilarious they call him stupid for not believing in evolutionary theory when OP didn't even tell us what he did believe.

 

They all must assume he thinks the earth is 3,000 yrs old and we are descendants of Adam & Eve.

 

I'd be willing to believe Aliens had sex with monkeys a million yrs ago & that's how we evolved before I'd believe that.

 

However, apes are single-minded when it comes to defending their territory and based on some of the posts in this thread It seems some of us aren't quite that far into the evolutionary process and make a good argument for us being the mutant spawn of primate's.

[lollipopspot]

based on some of the posts in this thread It seems some of us aren't quite that far into the evolutionary process and make a good argument for us being the mutant spawn of primate's.

 

humans are primates (no apostrophe)

[AMusing]

Jeez, everyone talks about how close-minded this guy is, and yet most here are being EXACTLY that - closed-minded. Calling him "ignorant" (which is narrow-minded and ignorant in itself) just because he doesn't have YOUR views. That's about the epitome of arrogance.

 

The belief system you're complaining about is called the scientific method. It is held to a higher respect and standard than faith-based belief systems on a daily basis (or else we would pray instead of developing new cancer drugs, perform rain dances instead of advancing irrigation methods, and try to exorcise individuals with schizophrenia).

 

Just because he doesn't have the same belief system as most posting here, that doesn't make him ignorant or small-minded or sub-human.

 

I will show people respect; that does not mean I have to respect their beliefs as equal to a scientific theory based on overwhelming (and ever growing) evidence. Anyway, respecting others doesn't mean we have to date them, in some desperate attempt to be less "close-minded" and "intolerant." I actually said he wasn't ignorant (as did several others), and that was most disturbing to me. Ignorance is understandable; willfully rejecting a wealth of compelling data is something else entirely.

 

When you get older and wiser, you'll see that something like this is NOT the end-all and be-all to a realtionship.

Perhaps I'm not as wise as you, EC (who's arrogant now?), but data shows that mixed-faith marriages fail at rates 3x greater than same-faith marriages. So... maybe "something like this" is important to relationships, after all?