fooled me twice, is it really love?

[Nantucket1984]

I have known this girl for a few years. She is 21 and I am 29. She broke up with me a couple years ago because she caught me looking at her FB and she made plans to have lunch with a guy after a fight we had. So I called her out on it and we broke up. I tried to get her back but she did not trust me.

 

I ended up moving out of state for a new job and she would reach out here and there. Last year she wanted to make things work with me(long distance). For one month things were great and then out of the blue she texts me saying "she cant do this right now and cant explain why but to give her some time and she know things will work out." I was angry with how she just broke up with me through text and would not explain why. 3 weeks later she was in a relationship with another guy that lasted only a few weeks.

 

Last summer she texts me asking why I have been ignoring her and she deserves a response. And she regrets how she treated me in the past and can change. That she still misses me and loves me and handled things immaturely. I was blunt and honest with her and told her that I did not believe her and that she always pops in my life then leaves. She said that this isnt fair but will let me go.

 

The truth is I never stopped loving this girl through all our ups and downs. I chalked it up to age and immaturity and her troublesome childhood(divorced parents, married and divorced at 18, has a child thats only a few years old, no relationship with parents or siblings really, used to be a cutter, depressed, on anti-depressants, angry, short temper) The laundry list goes on but I accepted her past because I cared.

 

I ended up reaching out to her this past winter and we got back together(long distance) we were together for almost a year. We saw each other pretty much every month and she made plans to move here with her child but her ex husband would not allow it so she fought it in court(still pending but not looking like the judge will allow it)

 

She ended up breaking up with me AGAIN because she felt like the move wasnt going to happen. I got angry because I feel like she pops in and out whenever she wants even though this time it made sense. But this was all her idea and she promised to fight until the end.

 

I started to see a therapist and she told me our relationship is toxic, my friends said it was toxic, not one person in my life told me to be with her. At the end of the day, I care about her and the child and I do love them.

 

My question is, from you enotalone posters and viewers, even if we do end up being in the same state, will anything change? She has a lot of baggage but I dont care because I really do love her. But everyone feels like she will never change and she will always be this person. My therapist thinks she has a borderline personality disorder and that I am lucky to not be with her. I get what everyone says, but my heart wants what my heart wants.

 

Was this a blessing in disguise, is it just the age? Still immature and young or is she really just not the one for me? Shes attractive and a lot of men hit on her, but her relationships never go past a month. I was her longest relationship( 17 months total), known her for 3 years. She always ends up coming back no matter where I live but the same results keep happening. Why doesnt she do this to all the other guys whos heart she broke, why keep coming back to me and leaving? What do i do if she reaches out again?

Edited October 5, 2013 by Nantucket1984

[veggirl]

ugh, her poor kid. she sounds like a trainwreck.

 

why would anything change?

 

SHE is the problem, what has SHE done to change? i'm guessing nothing. sign up for more of the same if you want, but don't expect anything to be different.

 

ahh, also read through the boards a bit, your story is a dime a dozen and spoiler alert, it never ends well.

[Phoe]

will anything change?

 

NOPE.

 

(ten characters)

[Downtown]

She pops in and out whenever she wants ....She always ends up coming back no matter where I live but the same results keep happening.

Nantucket, I agree with Veggirl and Phoe. If your exGF has strong BPD traits as your therapist said, that behavior is to be expected and is very unlikely to change. Because BPDers feel engulfed and suffocated by intimacy, they tend to go through a cycle of push-you-away and pull-you-back. They do best in long-distance relationships because they have so many excuses for being away from you.

 

In a recent poll of abused partners at BPDfamily.com, it was found that a third of the BPDer relationships went through at least 6 complete cycles of breakup/reconciliation before the couple finally ended it. Indeed, a fourth of the couples went through at least 10 breakup/reconcile cycles before calling it quits for good.

At the end of the day, I care about her and the child and I do love them.

At the end of the day, love is not a sufficient basis. There also must be trust, which is the foundation on which all marriages and LTRs must be built to be lasting. I mention this because, if your exGF is a BPDer, she is incapable of trusting you. And she won't change unless she gets years of intensive therapy to teach her how to trust herself and manage her emotions. Although there are excellent treatment programs available, it is very rare for a BPDer to have the self awareness and ego strength required to seek such programs -- and stay in them long enough to make a difference.

 

Further, an untreated BPDer has an emotional development that is frozen at the level of four year old. Hence, if your exGF is a BPDer and you marry her, your relationship with her will be parent/child, not husband/wife. All the love in the world will not change that. Indeed, drawing close to her to express your love will make her feel engulfed and suffocated. This is why any attempt to heal a BPDer by loving her is as futile as trying to heal a burn patient by hugging her.

Will anything change?

Absent years of therapy, your toxic relationship will get worse. As the years go by, her fear of abandonment will grow as she sees her body aging. Moreover, she will become increasingly resentful of your inability to fix her or make her happy. I know because I foolishly spent 15 years taking my BPDer exW to weekly visits with six different psychologists -- all to no avail.

She has a lot of baggage but I dont care because I really do love her.

I understand how you feel. I felt the same for 15 years. Like me, you almost certainly are an excessive caregiver -- a man who keeps helping even when it is to his great detriment to do so. For guys like us, the notion of walking away from a sick loved one is anathema -- even when that is exactly what we should be doing. Our problem is that our desire to be needed (for what we can do) far exceeds our desire to be loved (for the men we already are).

Why doesnt she do this to all the other guys whos heart she broke, why keep coming back to me and leaving?

She keeps returning to YOU because you keep taking her back. You do this because your personal boundaries are very low and you don't enforce the boundaries you do have. In contrast, those other guys have healthy personal boundaries and they enforce them, i.e., they won't take her back over and over again.

 

As to "why does she keep leaving," I noted above that BPDers cannot tolerate intimacy for very long. For an explanation of that and other BPD behaviors, I suggest you read my posts at http://www.loveshack.org/forums/breaking-up-reconciliation-coping/separation-divorce/275289-crazy-i-think-but-i-love-her-anyway#post3398735. If that description of what it's like to live with a BPDer rings a bell, I would be glad to discuss it with you and point you to good online resources. Take care, Nantucket.

[Nantucket1984]

dphoe and veggirl,

 

Thanks for reading and posting.

 

downtown,

 

I had been reading about BPD since the breakup, almost on a daily basis. I feel like I can teach a seminar about it. Even though everything is as clear as day and should help me move on and forget about her, it does not really work like that.

 

Everything you said is so true though, I relate and agree with literally everything you said. I appreciate your writing so much to me about it, I can't believe you spent 15 years trying to "solve" a problem that cannot be solved by us. Show's the type of character you have.

 

I think at this point, not being together isn't what is really bothering me, it is how we are now. She said she wanted to be civil, instead of just saying okay and moving on, I let it all out. I spent three years walking on egg shells with her and when she left AGAIN for the 3rd time now, I couldn't hold it in any longer.

 

I told her how I felt she comes in my life whenever she pleases then leaves, how one day she will wake up and regret how she is currently acting and treating me, that I did not deserve this after everything I have done for her and her daughter(trust me, I stuck by her side through so many bad things, that no guy in their right, healthy mind would stay), how she makes all these promises then leaves.

 

Basically, she did not appreciate those things I said even though they were the truth. So she told me to leave her alone and hung up in my face, this was 2 months ago, no contact since. A week after that, I actually sent a small text telling her I apologize for what I said. She never answered back.(regret doing that, doesn't even have the decency to write back)

 

It's just really confusing, I don't understand how you tell someone you want an engagement ring, want to be married, goes to court to get approval to move here, says it makes her sick to think that I will leave her; to now not even being civil and just not talking to me at all.

 

I do not get that and never will. This isn't love, love doesn't hurt or cause pain like this.

[Phoe]

dphoe and veggirl,

 

Thanks for reading and posting.

 

no problem.

 

 

And I hope you don't see my very simple post as being flippant, I just find it unnecessary to really elaborate any further, because it's really crystal clear...

 

 

Things will not change. It's that simple. And I think you know this... you just need a bit of a push in the right direction to really believe it.

[Nantucket1984]

no problem.

 

 

And I hope you don't see my very simple post as being flippant, I just find it unnecessary to really elaborate any further, because it's really crystal clear...

 

 

Things will not change. It's that simple. And I think you know this... you just need a bit of a push in the right direction to really believe it.

 

I didn't view it as flippant, it is more then obvious what to do when your on the outside looking in. And it is obvious what to do while I was in it. But you care about who you care about and it will take a lot of time to get over that this situation is far from good.

[Downtown]

I don't understand how you tell someone you want an engagement ring, want to be married, goes to court to get approval to move here, says it makes her sick to think that I will leave her; to now not even being civil and just not talking to me at all. I do not get that and never will.

Nantucket, you already know that her rapid flip between adoring you and devaluing you -- to the that point she has "split off" her love for you -- is called "black-white thinking." But understanding that at an intellectual level is the EASY part. What is DIFFICULT is internalizing that understanding, i.e., transforming knowledge into wisdom, which requires that your feelings catch up with your intellectual thoughts.

 

To accomplish that in my situation, I had to persuade the intuitive, childlike part of my mind that my adult views of my exW's illness are correct -- an objective that took me a while to meet. Had I failed in that effort, I would remain stuck in a destructive pattern, repeating my past mistakes over and over, because my intuitive "child" will be calling nearly all the shots in my decisions.

 

Because I had been in a 15 year relationship, it took me at least a year to bring my child's feelings into alignment with my adult's understanding. After just two weeks of intense reading on the Internet, I had a pretty good understanding of what I needed to do to get out of the toxic relationship and why I needed to do it.

 

Yet, because my child was over a year behind my adult, the child sabotaged my every effort to break away. It hindered me with nagging doubts, terrible guilt, and a strong feeling of obligation. It kept telling me that the theory floating around in the adult part of my mind was an insufficient basis on which to wholly abandon a loved one. Even after I had left her, I still refused to go No Contact for eight more months, at which point I finally realized she is incapable of ever being my friend.

 

My adult dragged my child -- with him kicking and screaming every inch of the way -- to that shocking truth. How do you accomplish that? How do you teach a child -- who had felt for many years she was my best friend -- that she never had that capability?

 

To bring the child and adult into alignment, what helped me a little was talking about my new found knowledge to anyone who would listen. Well, that was good for a week. Then their eyes glazed over. So what helped the most was coming to forums like this, where I could discuss it with people who had been there, done that. Significantly, that helped my mind to associate feelings with each of the intellectual thoughts. That has to be done because the child apparently learns from emotional experiences -- not from pure logic.

 

Writing and talking will help you internalize the information, turning knowledge into wisdom -- by connecting thoughts to feelings. If you doubt that, simply ask any university professor about its effectiveness. They will quickly tell you they never had an intuitive, deep-level understanding of their subject matter until they had to teach it to someone else -- or had to write it down very precisely when doing research.

 

Hence, what I found most helpful, Nantucket, is talking about it to anyone who listens and writing about it to anyone who writes back. Whether that is best for you I cannot say. There are many paths to healing. The beauty of this forum, then, is that a variety of members having diverse experiences will offer alternative suggestions. You get to choose what seems to work best for you.

[Nantucket1984]

downtown/love shack friends,

 

You think he is a rebound? because it was only 5 weeks after we broke up that she was in a relationship with a new guy.

[JoelBarish]

She has BPD. You know this already.

 

She doesn't love you, she uses you as a safety net. The only thing she loves is short-term, drama filled relationships.

 

You stated you are 29. However I am betting you have experienced few long term relationships other than with this girl. Do yourself a favor and get out there and experience what it's like to have relationships with women who don't have personality disorders. You would be amazed what it's like to have a relationship with someone who is capable of loving you back.

 

As for the girl you were referring to, I'll give you the only advice you need and you don't want to hear. RUN

[Nantucket1984]

Joel,

 

Thanks for the advice. It's strange, I read your most recent thread, then read the ones before it to understand that whole story. Was she BPD? You seem to have some knowledge about it.

[JoelBarish]

Joel,

 

Thanks for the advice. It's strange, I read your most recent thread, then read the ones before it to understand that whole story. Was she BPD? You seem to have some knowledge about it.

 

No, she wasn't BPD. The relationship was mostly drama free for the 18 months it lasted. For around 95 percent of it she was very giving towards me. She brought me gifts, constantly went out of her way to be with me , basically gave in to my every desire. Oh yeah, she was my best friend too. So what happened? I guess she just fell out of love with me. We would like to believe that stuff like that doesn't JUST happen but the harsh reality is that apparently it does happen. She is seeing a new guy now and I don't really know when that started but it doesn't change that we had a good relationship for as long as it lasted.

 

But the thing is I've had relationships that weren't like that. I've had relationships where the woman didn't respect my time or effort, where I was hidden and had to sneak around to accommodate her "situation" and it seemed like I was always settling for scraps of attention. Basically these relationships were hot one minute, cold the next and I never really knew where I stood. And believe me , there was always drama on which she seemed to feed. At the end of the day, it always seemed the relationship was one-sided with her giving me just enough attention to keep stringing me along.

 

Back then I didn't know any other way. I didn't think I had any other options available so I was obsessed with this person who paid me SOME attention and mistook that for love. It was like night and day when I eventually got into healthier relationships.

 

Anyway my advise may have seemed a bit harsh but you gotta be TOUGH in this relationship game. I wish I had learned all this early on, maybe I would have it all figured out by now and stop getting hurt. I just hope that you don't settle for less than you deserve in a relationship either.

Edited October 6, 2013 by JoelBarish

[Downtown]

You think he is a rebound?

Yes. Indeed, if she is a BPDer, ALL of her romantic partners -- including you -- likely have been rebounds. BPDers generally do not wait, following a breakup, for any healing to occur before they seek another partner. Waiting is a luxury they cannot afford.

 

Because they have a fragile, unstable sense of who they are, they are utterly alone when they are by themselves. That is, they don't even have a stable "self" to keep them company. BPDers therefore are quick to seek out a stable partner whose strong personality will serve to ground them and center them. Of course, when they get exactly that, they will feel he is controlling and suffocating them.

 

In this way, each abused partner will go through the idealization phase for 3 to 6 months, followed by the devaluation phase thereafter. Hence, a BPDer allows you to play only one of two roles if you want to stay with her: savior or perpetrator. Significantly, both of those roles serve to "validate" her false self image of always being "The Victim."

[Nantucket1984]

JOELBARISH

 

Thanks. I do want to be involved in a healthy relationship, however, I am afraid I am not sure what or who that is. My therapist said I had a very chaotic childhood and saw/heard things that a child should not see/hear. I personally didn't think it was anything serious. But anyways I realized all the girls I developed romantic relationships were "wounded birds." What I mean by that is they had a tough childhood, absentee mom or dad, daddy issues, mommy issues, DRAMA, chaos. My therapist was right, each girl I was romantically involved with had "issues."

 

I have met girls/woman that seemed to have a very stable life with a great job and no drama. But I guess there was no spark? I don't know, because the "wounded birds" would constantly text me and call me several times a day telling me how much they miss me and love me, etc. The stable woman never really did that. So I mistake crazy and suffocation with love. I feel so messed up to be thinking this way but its just the truth.

[Nantucket1984]

DOWNTOWN,

 

You have been so helpful, you have clearly done your research. Plus your experience helped a lot as well.

 

I guess what I am trying to register or come to terms with is, was this just all a game? I get a BPD person does this with everyone. But her longest relationship was with me. In the last 3 years when we would break up, she never recycled any other ex bf. I was the only ex she kept coming back to. I know you said because the old ex's won't take her back but I have seen her old ex's contact her and she wants nothing to do with them because they did her wrong I guess.

 

Wow this is such a freakin mind fccuukk. Whenever a girl comes in my life, if she doesn't want to be with me anymore, I am like ok whatever, have a great life. This one, has some like evil grip on me that I cannot shake. Its like when she decided to recycle me, she comes up with the most perfect words to put together to make everything sound so believable, but it is the same old song and dance.

[Downtown]

Wow this is such a freakin mind fccuukk....This one, has some like evil grip on me that I cannot shake. Its like when she decided to recycle me, she comes up with the most perfect words to put together to make everything sound so believable.

That's why, of the 157 disorders listed in the APA diagnostic manual, BPD is the one most notorious for making the abused partners feel like they may be losing their minds. And this is why therapists see far more of those abused partners -- seeking therapy to find out if they may be going crazy -- than the therapists ever see of the BPDers themselves.

 

Excessive caregivers like you and me are especially vulnerable to these toxic relationships because our desire to be needed (for what we can do) far exceeds our desire to be loved (for the men we already are). The result is that we have difficulty realizing that we are truly loved if the woman doesn't desperately need us. And we tend to mistake "being needed" for "being loved."

 

We therefore keep walking right on past all the emotionally available women (BORING!) until we find one who desperately needs us, as is evident in the adoration expressed during the infatuation period. Indeed, we often can spot these women across a crowded room because, like Marilyn Monroe, they are masters at projecting vulnerability -- "catnip" to us caregivers.

 

If you are interested, Shari Schreiber explains how we caregivers get to be this way in our childhoods. Her article is at DO YOU LOVE TO BE NEEDED, OR NEED TO BE LOVED?. If you decide to read it, please be patient. The latter half is better than the first.

 

She has another good article at AT ANY COST: Saving your Life after Loving a Borderline.. If you follow her "Articles" link at the top of the page, you will find about three dozen articles that she's written about BPDer relationships.