Demonizing the wife

October 6, 2013

Wait. Solostand, you are both sober? As in "working a program" sober? Oh honey, if that's the case, being in the A must torture for you. Rigorous honesty and all that....

October 6, 2013

His relationship with his children has been completely separate from his relationship with me or his ex wife. He is not a great SO always, but he is a pretty great father - not perfect, that's impossible, but very involved and very loving towards his children.

I agree that they should have separated years before - as their children were most likely aware of the abuse of both of them by each other, but he was so worried that a divorce would "ruin" his children. He really and truly believed that if they divorced that his children would become failing students and end up in trouble. He had never been around divorce personally and was terrified of the effects it might have on his children. Luckily, they are doing better since the divorce - and his mind was eased on that point. And although he continues to attend all of their events - he does miss them every day he doesn't see them (which isn't many days but still less than every day).

And I don't know that I've come to a different conclusion of his marriage than the one he "presented" to me. I always knew I was hearing HIS side, which was obviously going to be hard to be objective as it was him experiencing it. I knew that his view would be a little biased, as all of us are, it's almost impossible not to be in these situations. But, there wasn't anything that he said that wasn't true, so no, I don't doubt his parenting - and it seems that nobody else does either - including his ex wife who often talks about how often he is seeing his children now, the effort he continues to make. He has often stated since the divorce that he misses his children and has made comments about wishing he could see them more or feeling like he hasn't seen them as much as he wants to or would like to.

Perhaps - I guess he could be a monster and I and everyone else has just missed it for all these years. It just isn't very likely, ya know?

There are a few things that I just don't doubt about him at ALL. His love for his children and his parenting involvement are some of those. No, he isn't perfect, yes he makes mistakes, yes sometimes he makes bad decisions or judges the consequences of his actions inaccurately -but all in all, he's just a guy. He can be mean sometimes, and I'm sure he has spats with his children - everyone does. I don't think that negates his standing as a "good father".

No child's relationship with one parent is separate from the other parent. Even in divorce the child still identifies some part of themselves with both parents. But all that theory aside a child seeing abuse is most definitely impacted by it to one degree or another.

I didn't say he was a monster. Reality is that most abuse of spouses and children takes place behind closed doors. So yeah I think there's a huge possibility that you and everyone else who knows him might not know anything about it. Especially if as you have described it's mainly emotional abuse. That is the sneakiest abuse of all even for the victim of it to identify.

October 6, 2013

Wait. Solostand, you are both sober? As in "working a program" sober? Oh honey, if that's the case, being in the A must torture for you. Rigorous honesty and all that....

Yes we are both sober and belong to the same AA group. That's where we met three years ago. I guess you would call what we are doing as thirteenth stepping.

I am honest because I am single. Anyone asks I tell them the truth. As for him - - - he has to live with his own conscience.

I will add that we tend to keep each other sober. He has talked me off the ledge many times, and I him.

October 6, 2013

I can't imagine you got through your 9th step without addressing the harm you are doing to his wife. Are you honest with your sponsor about this?

October 6, 2013

Not on the ninth step yet.

October 6, 2013

[QUTE=thefooloftheyear;5254406]I see your point, but....

How would it be any different if he was divorced and dating someone? ..Or having to lose time because he needed to take a second job to afford the CS and alimony payments??...

I know some parents dont give a shyt about their kids, but for some of us, anything less than the maximum amount of time with your kids is a tremendous loss..

TFY

If it is such a tremendous loss to spend time away from their kids, why do they have an OW or an OM who takes them away from their time with their kids? That is exactly my point TFY. MM and MW all of a sudden value "having their children 100% of the time," when they dont consider how much of that 100% of the time they spend wasting on the OW or OM. I say wasting because its a tremendous loss when you are away from your kids. In my mind, spending time away from your family with OW/OM isnt spending 100% of your time with your kids anyway. If anything, these cheaters want a babysitter (BS) so they can go live in Affairyland with their AP without children to cramp their time together. APs want to get away from reality...... like their wife/husband and children and all the fun that goes with having a family to tend to.

All I mean is the cheater, by cheating, is wasting valuable time away from their kids and dont spend 100% of the time with them anyway. It is horroble that someone would stay with their spouse so they didnt have to pay child support considering they pay half the bills or more anyway, especially if theyre the one cheating. They should own what they did and go on to be happy or they should have signed a prenup to hold on to their belongings after divorce. Maybe you could explain a little better why someone should be able to cheat and then break someones heart, divorce them, and not have to pay for his children? If it is such a high price to pay, why do so many risk it? The price of cheating is high. People need to keep it in their pants if they dont want to test that reality. Just my thoughts

October 6, 2013

My 2c would be to never say anything negative about his wife. If he complains, ask him questions or let him talk but don't express your honest opinion. In general- It could be anything from family, finance, leisure, sex, etc.-related issues to kids, health, bla bla bla you name it. Don't pass judgment on her because no matter what, at the end of the day she's his wife, they've been together longer than the two of you and a married man (from my experience and from what i've read on the matter) will always feel a sort of 'complicity' with his wife as opposed to 'some stranger'.

It's strange but understandable. Perhaps they see their wives as a good friend and they don't want someone to judge/offend them. I would most probably feel the same if I was married even if my H was an idiot. Partners are partners.

My MM's wife is a horrible person, as far as I'm concerned, but I never said anything mean about her, or expressed my true opinion. Why would I do that? It's not like he's gonna drop everything and say 'Gee, you're so right! How come I never saw this all these years?! Let me get a lawyer and a divorce right now! Thanks for opening my eyes!'. More probably, even if I might be right, he'd think I am nosy, resentful, I criticize his 'family' and get involved where it's none of my business and stop talking to me about such matters. Just don't talk negatively about his wife, kids, parents or best friends. That's always a dealbreaker IMO.

October 6, 2013

I'm going to be very gentle, as you are a sister in sobriety. I am concerned about you, not in a condescending way, but in a way of understanding and personal experience.

Recovery is serious business. We are getting a second chance to be happy, joyous and free. It's a delicious promise that I, myself, have experienced and am grateful for every day.

When we put the "plug in the jug," we are still filled with the feelings we had when drinking, many feelings that we felt explained WHY we drank so much. Many of us (me included), move on to another addiction (food, sex, relationships, gambling, etc) in order to avoid the feelings that are now with us every day since we stopped covering them with alcohol.

Quitting drinking is not the hard part. Sobriety is the hard part. The steps are the way out of that mental torture. Life is so much richer when we live an honest life. I wish this for you, solostand. And if you choose to end this affair and want to walk through some steps around recovering from it, feel free to private message me.

In the meantime, please be gentle with yourself and I will keep you in my thoughts. <3

October 6, 2013

I have just received my one year chip, after a short slip following ten years sobriety.

I attend AA EVERY DAY, and I understand completely what you say about replacing addictions. I think its obvious what I have replaced my alcohol addiction with. As has my affair partner.

Thanks for your kindness.

October 6, 2013

My 2c would be to never say anything negative about his wife. If he complains, ask him questions or let him talk but don't express your honest opinion. In general- It could be anything from family, finance, leisure, sex, etc.-related issues to kids, health, bla bla bla you name it. Don't pass judgment on her because no matter what, at the end of the day she's his wife, they've been together longer than the two of you and a married man (from my experience and from what i've read on the matter) will always feel a sort of 'complicity' with his wife as opposed to 'some stranger'.
It's strange but understandable. Perhaps they see their wives as a good friend and they don't want someone to judge/offend them. I would most probably feel the same if I was married even if my H was an idiot. Partners are partners.
My MM's wife is a horrible person, as far as I'm concerned, but I never said anything mean about her, or expressed my true opinion. Why would I do that? It's not like he's gonna drop everything and say 'Gee, you're so right! How come I never saw this all these years?! Let me get a lawyer and a divorce right now! Thanks for opening my eyes!'. More probably, even if I might be right, he'd think I am nosy, resentful, I criticize his 'family' and get involved where it's none of my business and stop talking to me about such matters. Just don't talk negatively about his wife, kids, parents or best friends. That's always a dealbreaker IMO.

I agree with this. I never speak badly of her and when he does, I just listen. I even told him once that what goes on within his marriage is none of my business.

I actually think their problem is he feels emasculated.

Edited October 6, 2013 by solostand

October 6, 2013

[QUTE=thefooloftheyear;5254406]I see your point, but....

How would it be any different if he was divorced and dating someone? ..Or having to lose time because he needed to take a second job to afford the CS and alimony payments??...

I know some parents dont give a shyt about their kids, but for some of us, anything less than the maximum amount of time with your kids is a tremendous loss..

TFY

If it is such a tremendous loss to spend time away from their kids, why do they have an OW or an OM who takes them away from their time with their kids? That is exactly my point TFY. MM and MW all of a sudden value "having their children 100% of the time," when they dont consider how much of that 100% of the time they spend wasting on the OW or OM. I say wasting because its a tremendous loss when you are away from your kids. In my mind, spending time away from your family with OW/OM isnt spending 100% of your time with your kids anyway. If anything, these cheaters want a babysitter (BS) so they can go live in Affairyland with their AP without children to cramp their time together. APs want to get away from reality...... like their wife/husband and children and all the fun that goes with having a family to tend to.

All I mean is the cheater, by cheating, is wasting valuable time away from their kids and dont spend 100% of the time with them anyway. It is horroble that someone would stay with their spouse so they didnt have to pay child support considering they pay half the bills or more anyway, especially if theyre the one cheating. They should own what they did and go on to be happy or they should have signed a prenup to hold on to their belongings after divorce. Maybe you could explain a little better why someone should be able to cheat and then break someones heart, divorce them, and not have to pay for his children? If it is such a high price to pay, why do so many risk it? The price of cheating is high. People need to keep it in their pants if they dont want to test that reality. Just my thoughts

You dont get it....And frankly I am tired of explaining it...

I know a single mom with a special needs kid that parks her kid in front of a TV or tells her to go the fck away and play so she can spend 5-6+ hours A DAY on FB and other social media...

You want to say infidelity is wrong, fine...we are on the same page 100%...But there are several ways kids get the short end when it comes to time..

Should I feel guilty as well that I go to the gym every night? Or lets say your husband was a volunteer fireman and spent countless hours shooting the shyt with the guys? You might not complain about the time then, no?

Does one hour of Affairyland time equal 10 hours doing anything else away from your kids? See the point? Its silly...

And to address your second paragraph...Maybe you can explain why a wife is allowed to crap all over her husband, ignore him, act passive aggressive, etc? If its such a high price to pay why do they risk it with this behavior.?

You see???

Lets just agree that cheating and infidelity is wrong, instead of embarrassing oneselves with ridiculous scenarios..Because I can make the same arguments all day long on the other side...

TFY

October 6, 2013

Its easy to see why she is so controlling. She is the wife of an alcoholic. This dynamic is so common. She has probably been cleaning up his messes for years. She has probably lost a lot of respect for him. Alcoholism & addiction are not attractive traits.

She needs Al-anon.

He is not in recovery. He is what is called a "dry drunk". He still has many of the behaviors of an alcoholic- lying, he's sneaky, passive aggressive, rebelling against his mean mommy wife. He just doesn't drink at the moment. Now he has the affair.

He's not a good partner for anyone.

October 6, 2013

Its easy to see why she is so controlling. She is the wife of an alcoholic. This dynamic is so common. She has probably been cleaning up his messes for years. She has probably lost a lot of respect for him. Alcoholism & addiction are not attractive traits.

She needs Al-anon.

He is not in recovery. He is what is called a "dry drunk". He still has many of the behaviors of an alcoholic- lying, he's sneaky, passive aggressive, rebelling against his mean mommy wife. He just doesn't drink at the moment. Now he has the affair.

He's not a good partner for anyone.

Amen to all of this.

OP, it might be helpful for you to check out Al Anon yourself, and some books on codependancy. It is VERY common for an Alcoholic to have a codependant partner. You and your MM are feeding off of one another in an unhealthy way.

October 6, 2013

I agree with this. I never speak badly of her and when he does, I just listen. I even told him once that what goes on within his marriage is none of my business.

I actually think their problem is he feels emasculated.

I don't think it's necessary to tell him not to talk about such matters if you want to stay close to him. On the contrary, be his friend if that's what he needs. Unless he asks for your opinion or you feel he's really hurt by smth his wife did, you shouldn't say anything. Just the typical 'oh, I get your point, that doesn't sound too good'. Be diplomatic, but always keep in that extra pinch of salt...one never knows.

I actually thought this thread was about ugly stuff about the wives/husbands!

October 6, 2013

You opened the thread with this:

Yeah, I didn't actually say that to him. I said it to myself.

October 6, 2013

Its easy to see why she is so controlling. She is the wife of an alcoholic. This dynamic is so common. She has probably been cleaning up his messes for years. She has probably lost a lot of respect for him. Alcoholism & addiction are not attractive traits.

She needs Al-anon.

He is not in recovery. He is what is called a "dry drunk". He still has many of the behaviors of an alcoholic- lying, he's sneaky, passive aggressive, rebelling against his mean mommy wife. He just doesn't drink at the moment. Now he has the affair.

He's not a good partner for anyone.

Sorry but he is very much in recovery. Attends AA every day and does work helping other alcoholics. Seen it with my own eyes.

His wife however is a problem drinker. Its easy to blame his alcoholism but what's everyone else's excuse? The man is human, fell in love.

Edited October 6, 2013 by solostand

October 6, 2013

Wtfh wrote, " they also don't want their kids to have to give up the "package deal" of mom and dad - and that IS accomplished by having an affair. The ONLY way the affair is going to affect the children is IF the children are told about the affair. Otherwise, to them, all they know is that BOTH of their parents still live in the home and are there for all of their milestones and activities and such. You really can't see why it looks like a solution???"

And part of your "package" theory is the knowledge that one of their parents is a liar & cheater w/an AP that is cool w/helping maintain your "package" deal theory when the A comes to light.

Yep, that makes their parent look waaaay better of the two, the poor sacrificing, cheating martar...

Ya.... um, No.

October 6, 2013

Well...

Sounds like a conversation, but whatever.

Sorry I should have said "I said to myself WTF? Is she your mommy or what?"

I think I may have really said "Really? She would do that?"

October 6, 2013

To all who think that a child doesn't know what mom/dad is off doing when they are having an affair, or that "he/she is a good parent, even though they are having an affair;

Several years ago, my child was hospitalized for mental health treatment, and we joined a parent support group. The group was facilitated by professionals from the unit, and one of the topics discussed was the effect an affair can have on the children. From what the group was told, there are definite links between a parent who has an affair and the mental health of the children. All I can say is that there were a lot of uncomfortable parents in the room when that topic was being discussed.

An affair is just so selfish on every level. Even a parent who sues the excuse of "I don't want to be away from my kids" is selfish. If you and the spouse from hell were not together, then maybe your child would be happier. Maybe the real reason you don't want to divorce is not your children, but it's you.

If it's that terrible a home for them, if you are miserable, if you are so desperate for an escape that you are willing to risk your child's well being, then what type of home for them is it?

Likely, cheating is a lazy solution to your problem. While things may not be great, they aren't so bad either, and this is why so many fight tooth and nail to stay after the affair has come out into the light. It's why the affair is hidden.

OP,

driving while taking toradol ( ketrolac) is contraindicated. It can make you dizzy, drowsy, etc., especially at the dosage given after surgery. you are also not supposed to take it for more than five days, and it should be used with extreme care in anyone over 60 and who has had previous problems with alcohol ( because it can affect your stomach, and cause internal bleeding in you GI tract).

Here is a link for you that you might find helpful:

Toradol Oral : Uses, Side Effects, Interactions, Pictures, Warnings & Dosing - WebMD

If this guy is complaining that his wife won't let him drive while he's taking it , then really, really think hard about that.What is this really telling you? Is it telling you that is wife is being too controlling, or is it telling you that he is exaggerating the situation so you'll feel bad for him? If he is exaggerating, then why does he need to do so?

Is this the same man ( or maybe I have him mixed up) who had a lot of one night stands but says he's never cheated? Why does he feel the need to skew things so much? Does he have issues with telling the truth?

You say he is a recovering alcoholic? Is it a all possible that his wife has seen him at his worst, maybe has seen some very bad behavior you are not privy to, and knows what he is capable of? Could that be why she didn't want him to drive?

Think with your brain, not with your heart, and you'll have all the answers you need.

October 6, 2013

Contraindicated until you know its affect on you. And although I appreciate your internet research, he does have two very good doctors. I myself have been prescribed toradol after surgery and was in no way told not to drive.

And of course she has seen horrible alcoholic behaviour from him. Just like my adult son has seen horrible alcoholic behavior from me. But now that Im sober, he treats me like the responsible adult that I now am.

He's made no secret of his former drunken behaviour to me or anyone else. However, he has not had a drink for FIVE years.

He has seen horrible alcoholic behaviour from her as recently as last weekend.|He says its not fair, but she disgusts him when she's loaded.

And I have been to his house, and seen the dozens and dozens of wine bottles.

Edited October 6, 2013 by solostand

October 6, 2013

Contraindicated until you know its affect on you. And although I appreciate your internet research, he does have two very good doctors. I myself have been prescribed toradol after surgery and was in no way told not to drive.

And of course she has seen horrible alcoholic behaviour from him. Just like my adult son has seen horrible alcoholic behavior from me. But now that Im sober, he treats me like the responsible adult that I now am.

He's made no secret of his former drunken behaviour to me or anyone else. However, he has not had a drink for FIVE years.

He has seen horrible alcoholic behaviour from her as recently as last weekend.|He says its not fair, but she disgusts him when she's loaded.

And I have been to his house, and seen the dozens and dozens of wine bottles.

Maybe you should do a bit more internet research yourself into why affairs between recovering AA members are considered bad.

If things are so horrible at his house, why does he stay? Oh, I forgot, she won't let him leave.

Why do you swallow this tripe so easily? Don't you think you deserve better?

October 6, 2013

First of all, I know him. Very very well. And I know without a shadow of a doubt that he loves me. He shows it every day. He is giddy with love.

And the plan is to leave.

But I can see it is pointless to argue this anymore because strangers on the internet cannot see what I can see, what my friends can see, what my son can see, and what he feels.

The heart wants what it wants.

October 6, 2013

Im sorry...Your parents sounded like mine...Yes..its miserable. But quite frankly you can only speculate at this point whether it would have been better or worse(if they split). You really dont know.

I dont know what your financial situation was, but in my case, when my mother left(annd I dont fault her) we collapsed entirely. My father didnt want to work, so here he was, unequipped to handle 3 little kids, and every day it was a round robin of who was coming to shut off power, water, gas,..whatever..We kids wound up living with whatever relative could take us at the time.

Point is neither parent in my case could have kept a roof over our head alone, so thats what happened. They(my mom mostly), sacrificed for us..While it was never great, during the times they were apart-it was definitely worse.

TFY

Yes my father says that financially he was not able to support two households. My mom was a stay at home for awhile and then did daycare out of the house. She didn't want to work out of the house though she had an advance degree. My father had some issues turning over positions as his temper was not unknown in the workplace as well. Then there was a time period where he wasn't working as he was volunteering.

Yep, not sure if divorce would have been worse but it would have also been a chance for them to be happy as well. When they did divorce, when the youngest went to college, they have had a very amicable and enjoyable post divorce relationship.

October 6, 2013

First of all, I know him. Very very well. And I know without a shadow of a doubt that he loves me. He shows it every day. He is giddy with love.

And the plan is to leave.

But I can see it is pointless to argue this anymore because strangers on the internet cannot see what I can see, what my friends can see, what my son can see, and what he feels.

The heart wants what it wants.

I think you should talk to your sponsor about all of this. You really do sound like a person who is in denial about their addiction. You said it yourself, you replaced your addiction to alcohol with addiction to your MM.

October 7, 2013

First of all, I know him. Very very well. And I know without a shadow of a doubt that he loves me. He shows it every day. He is giddy with love.

And the plan is to leave.

But I can see it is pointless to argue this anymore because strangers on the internet cannot see what I can see, what my friends can see, what my son can see, and what he feels.

The heart wants what it wants.

So, why isn't he coming clean with his wife and telling her that he is totally giddy in love with someone else and he has to divorce her so he can start his life with you?

For your sake, I hope he isn't 'future faking' and giving you tons of hope when all the meanwhile he is just enjoying the A and has no real intention of leaving and divorcing his wife.

Please protect your son so he won't get hurt if all goes south.

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