He wants a Prenuptial Agreement. How do I approach this topic?

October 1, 2013

Afraid I can't help you with regards to the legal stuff, OP. There will be others better equipped to do so.

But this seems to me like one of those 'different strokes for different folks' things, y'know? Honestly, the way I see it, it doesn't really matter what other people think. It doesn't matter that other people find it useful, logical, etc. Marriage is a huge decision and you shouldn't be making it if you're even the tiniest bit unsure about the entire thing. Prenup included.

Other people may think that it's a good idea. That's great... for them. On the other hand, you are you - and deep down, if you personally feel that that's not the sort of marriage YOU want to be entering into... I don't think it bodes well for you to go into it. It's tough enough to make a marriage last a lifetime without starting out on such tenuous footing.

Personally, I find it difficult to advise what I'd do in your shoes because America seems to be slightly... unique with regards to alimony. Not many countries enforce alimony to the degree that some American states do, AFAIK. It must be a tough situation to be in for both of you.

Edited October 1, 2013 by Elswyth

October 1, 2013

Hi everyone,

My boyfriend and I (yes, boyfriend, not engaged yet) are moving in together in the next couple of weeks after 1+ years in a long-distance relationship. I am moving to him. Last year, he took a very well-paying job at a good company on the West Coast. I am an academic in the Humanities, just starting out my career and my salary is year-to-year, contingent, and much lower than his at the moment. (I am looking for tenure-track work but it might be 2-3 years before I have a dependable job with tenured security and perks, in other words).

We are not yet engaged, but have discussed marriage at length and he is (in his words) waiting for that perfect moment to "surprise me" with a proposal. In a perfect world, the move to engagement would have happened more spontaneously, but it is what it is: I wouldn't move to join him without some level of stated commitment and an understanding that we're on the way to engagement. So viola.

Anyway, yesterday we were discussing money stuff, planning a budget, etc, before we move into this new house (rented) in the next month. And before I knew it, we had moved to discussing our longer-term financial goals. Which is fine.

But then he mentioned that he would feel much more secure if we obtained and signed a prenuptial agreement before we tied the knot. (the sound of brakes screeched in my head when I heard this). He explained that when he was a boy, he saw his parents go through a really nasty divorce; his dad (an alcoholic who cheated on his wife) somehow almost wrested the house from his mom (the breadwinner and the one who got sole custody) on the basis that the family home was "communal property," despite that mom was the sole name on the papers (or something). Anyway, my BF sees a prenup as a way to keep really protracted problems like that from happening to us (god forbid). He says he wants to protect a) his 401K and b) possibly any real estate we would accumulate (assuming, of course, that he's paying for the house... and assumption I find problematic).

My gut told me to just flat out refuse a prenup that has any provisions waiving communal property rights. For a couple reasons:
1) If I'm living in a house with a husband, my name is going on the paperwork and I'm paying towards it, period. I refuse to be my husband's "tenant" for all intents and purposes;
2) The assumption of a prenup written BEFORE I get my career fully in place is that my husband is making 5 times what I do. Right this second, he is making 5 times my annual salary. But in 2-3 years, he will be making twice my annual salary, if that. I will never be "equal" to him in terms of salary, but I don't see the differential as high enough to warrant a prenup on communal property. (I'm happy to be proven wrong, though... I need to learn more about these agreements).

I don't know about his 401K; it seems reasonable on the face of it that I could waive my right to dip into his 401K in the event of a divorce. But tell me, LS people, is there some aspect to this I'm missing?

Anyway, I wanted to ask you all about prenup agreements in general, and about the "Communal Property Rights" part in particular. Are such agreements really a way for my more well-salaried husband-to-be to protect himself in the event of the worst-case scenario? Or are they a way for him to protect his assets at my legal expense?

Please, no gender wars commentary. I would most like a discussion about the costs/benefits of a prenup, given my situation above. I'm not a "golddigger" and he's not litigious. We're just two early-30 somethings that are trying to figure out how to do this thing right, legally.

Thanks!

I would pursue the pre-nup and look out for both parties best interests. It should be fairly written so that equity is 50/50 with future children taken into account. I have no issues with pre-nups and thing they are very smart financial planning.

If you see, though, that he is proposing a very one sided agreement, well that is a major red flag to be thankful you are seeing now.

Marriage is a lot like a business, protect yourself going in and leave the emotions out of it.

October 2, 2013

I agree with everyone who said to hire your own attorney who specializes in this. It will make it less personal, i.e. "Honey, we are paying our attorneys to sort this out. Let them earn their fee. If we don't like it, we don't have to have a prenup."

I am always surprised at ignorant people who think they can make another person sign a piece of paper saying they get nothing if the marriage breaks up. Something like that is usually tossed out of court for being patently unfair. And when tabloids talk about celebrity divorces and how the wife, usually, stands to gain X billion dollars, they look at the man's total assets before he even got married, which are never considered in divorce actions.

All of this may be moot to the OP because in the past few years we have seen men lose good paying jobs and assets when they thought they were set for life. The only one with a job is the wife, earning far less money but supporting the family.

Edited October 2, 2013 by FitChick

October 2, 2013

What are you going to do, OP?

October 2, 2013

I think prenups for assets you currently have and his 401k is something that he kind of deserves in a divorce, imo.

Any assets acquired during marriage should be split unless he pays every cent that goes into the assets (i.e mortgage, taxes, repairs or upgrades). That would be fair but you've stated you don't want that to be the case, so...

I also don't believe in alimony, I think if I ever had the grapes to even propose getting a prenuptial (I wouldn't) that would be at the top of the list of things to get put in there (I don't know if you legally can do that or not).

Child support is obviously a different story, but if you have any kids this contract should be terminated.

You should also get some things sorted out too on your end in this contract.

October 2, 2013

Did he specifically say he WILL propose once the contract is done, or is this just something he brought up. Or was it more of a"down there road, some day in the distant future, if we were to be married..."

October 2, 2013

Given the circumstances, specifically a LDR where one party is moving distance to live with another party, and apparently where a serious relationship is involved and cohabitation is imminent, such a discussion in general terms would be reasonable IMO. I presume the OP is moving to progress the relationship to living together and becoming married, since the topic was placed in the marriage and life partnership forum.

Regardless of whether they marry or become life partners, the blending of households is what would impel my discussion of such matters as partnership agreements. As another poster mentioned, even if nothing legal is done at this time, the issues addressed could clarify financial and relationship styles for the couple, solidifying their decision or causing them to reflect further upon it. One can still enjoy romance and intimacy and address such issues. It's a healthy warm-up for the realities of a life partnership or marriage.

October 2, 2013

This is utterly confusing. I thought pre-NUP[tual] agreement was supposed to be discussed and decided before the actual wedding. Not before the engagement and not before the move-in together date. I don't blame OP for feeling uneasy as if this is some sort of a condition for all this. [Not sure who started this discussion but] timing of this is really bizarre.

I don't think it is a bad thing to discuss especially prior to move in. If you are merging monies and assets then this agreement should be hammered out.

October 2, 2013

I think prenups for assets you currently have and his 401k is something that he kind of deserves in a divorce, imo.

Any assets acquired during marriage should be split unless he pays every cent that goes into the assets (i.e mortgage, taxes, repairs or upgrades). That would be fair but you've stated you don't want that to be the case, so...

I also don't believe in alimony, I think if I ever had the grapes to even propose getting a prenuptial (I wouldn't) that would be at the top of the list of things to get put in there (I don't know if you legally can do that or not).

Child support is obviously a different story, but if you have any kids this contract should be terminated.

You should also get some things sorted out too on your end in this contract.

I think if one party does not work or work on their career due to a mutual decision to have children, etc. then alimony is acceptable. Outside of that each party needs to go after their career to the fullest extent. Any amendments to it, moving for another's career which would negatively impact other's career, financial restitution should be factored in.

If my husband stayed at home with the kids, or we moved for my career that caused a decrease in income for him then I would expect to compensate him if we were to divorce.

October 2, 2013

Did he specifically say he WILL propose once the contract is done, or is this just something he brought up. Or was it more of a"down there road, some day in the distant future, if we were to be married..."

Not all marriages are arrived at via a proposal by the man. They may just have discussed that they would like to get married in the future, and now be discussing some of the logistics.

October 2, 2013

Wow, a lot of new posts to work with here. Let me just handle them one at a time.

I think you should work on your marriage philosophy, before you go through with this. Marriage is not a partnership; it is a unity. [Two becomes one, so to speak] You shouldn't think as you'll be a 'junior partner' if you bring less money. A loving marriage is never about who has the most power. It is about what is best for the unit.

Agreed, absolutely. This is where my own shame and baggage around money becomes a problem. When he brought this up it was hard to handle for me because I have shame around not being able to contribute an equal share financially. When we move in together (the move is next week, btw), he will have to shoulder more of the household bills. Not all, but more. So I'm struggling with feelings of inadequacy from the get-go. I guess you're right though: if I envision marriage as a "partnership" that calls to question whether both partners are contributing, how so, etc. It sets me up for feelings of inadequacy. If a marriage is instead a "unity" it maintains the idea that spouse and I are working collectively on something and cooperating together.

What are you going to do, OP?

I think I will retain my own counsel and be certain that the lawyers iron out any Agreement to our mutual satisfaction. The way I see it now, I guess if he wants to pursue an Agreement I'm fine to explore the idea. But I will enter negotiations with the presumption that I am under no obligation to sign... this will be an exploratory mission until I feel secure about the Contract I'm asked to sign.

Given the circumstances, specifically a LDR where one party is moving distance to live with another party, and apparently where a serious relationship is involved and cohabitation is imminent, such a discussion in general terms would be reasonable IMO. I presume the OP is moving to progress the relationship to living together and becoming married, since the topic was placed in the marriage and life partnership forum.

Yes, precisely. I'm moving across the country, have liquidated nearly all my property on the East Coast, and we've been discussing marriage for some time now. He brought up the prospect of a Prenup Agreement alongside other long-term planning discussions. At the time we were discussing our budgetary "five year plan."

I think it should be noted- our relationship has been a hybrid of long-distance and non-long-distance. Our first year or so was spent in the same city (we met in grad school). After he graduated he moved to California and we've been long-distance for a little over a year.

This is utterly confusing. I thought pre-NUP[tual] agreement was supposed to be discussed and decided before the actual wedding. Not before the engagement and not before the move-in together date. I don't blame OP for feeling uneasy as if this is some sort of a condition for all this. [Not sure who started this discussion but] timing of this is really bizarre.

I do think it's odd that he brought up the discussion of the Prenup Agreement before he even proposed. In one sense, this is sort of his style... he's always concerned about the financial planning side of things (to say he's incredibly "responsible" is an understatement, this is a guy who always buys the insurance and managed to sock away money while subsisting on a graduate-student stipend). On the other hand, though, I do worry that the Agreement might pose a stumbling block on the road to engagement because he brought it up so very, very early.

Did he specifically say he WILL propose once the contract is done, or is this just something he brought up. Or was it more of a"down there road, some day in the distant future, if we were to be married..."

No, this was mostly my fear-based speculation as to why he brought it up so early. The reality of this is that we have discussed marriage at some depth but the proposal hasn't happened yet. I've always had the philosophy that I would NEVER move in with a man I wasn't engaged to. This past March I was awarded a national writing grant to finish my book manuscript, and my BF asked me to move to California and move in with him (b.c. I can write from anywhere. Why stay long-distance if I'm mobile?) I told him my qualms with moving in with a BF, and we've discussed a timetable for getting married a couple times since then. It sort of sucks the romance out of it, I know, but I needed to know that he sees this going somewhere in the next year if I was going to make a big move.

Anyway, where it stands now is we move in together, and plan for a wedding in Fall 2014ish. It seems as though a proposal is imminent (he asked me about rings in fact) but it hasn't actually happened yet.

If that sounds awkward, it's because it has been a little awkward.

He brought the contract up in the context of discussing these very issues. But I will say that when I pushed back on aspects of it, he sort of backpedaled and said "whoa, I didn't expect to have a full-on conversation about this right this second. I was just trying the idea on for size." That confuses me too... because in my world no one talks about Prenup Agreements in a "casual" way.

October 3, 2013

See that's exactly the point I'm getting at. I don't think he was suggesting he was going to get married to you anytime soon. He was basically just saying "if we were to get married some time down the road, I'd need a prenup, but that's going to be a long ways from now so don't even worry about it at this point in time"

October 3, 2013

First of all if you're asking for legal advice I'd strongly recommend speaking with an attorney rather than a forum as circumstances, laws state to state etc can vary.

As for the relationship, he's being smart about protecting his financial investment/assets...he is making a considerable amount more than you are therefore he stands more to lose, and even if you were to hypothetically get married tomorrow and buy a house together it doesn't take a mathematician to figure out his contribution financially is going to far out weigh yours, and your future projected income is not a motivating factor that you'll be contributing much more as that isn't in the now...so the big question for him is...why even get married? makes no sense...might as well just buy the house on your own while you are single, protect your assets especially since you're going to be contributing a bulk and it's already yours anyway.

So I definitely don't think this guy is "waiting to surprise you" I think he's just lining up his ducks up and being cautious before he puts himself out there for a unnecessary financial risk, and sorry "love" isn't going to protect you...he's being realistic because once the shet hits the fan and the gloves come off who knows what you will claim once that honeymoon period is over.

You've only been dating a year...and you haven't even lived together...and on top of that it's been a LDR...and he chose to take a job on the west coast for a better income, he's not making decisions based on this relationship (smart) and he's really putting his priorities first (make sure you do the same)...so I like the guy, because at the end of the day he's doing things to better himself and he realizes what he stands to lose by unnecessarily jumping into a marriage without protecting his assets. Assets you have no business being apart of at this moment like his 401k.

With that being said, there's nothing wrong with you having your own living savings or not pouring all your finances into his house...let him pay the bills, you cover other expenses, at the end of the day though realize you're making the choice to move to be with him, that's not much of a compromise..it's more of a sacrifice, and If you don't protect yourself and have a little savings to help you out that's your own fault...after all, if you were just in a relationship living together, he's not obligated or committed to you financially or property wise either, you'd just walk away with yours is yours and mine is mine right?

So let him handle his own assets and support them financially so that he is rightfully and justifiable entitled to his own property...don't be one of those people who assume and contribute thinking that just because you did that entitles you to some monetary supplementation or property, that'll all be out of your hands and if you do have children together than the whole playing field is going to change anyway...I think that's the more concerning variable in this agreement.

IMO if you want to move down there that is fine and live with him....but let him support his own property that he wants to be his (I see nothing wrong with that, you want to buy a house together do it later together when you can contribute financially more) and see how this relationship develops once you are in each others faces day after day, night after night and you're out of they honeymoon period...then you can negotiate terms of the "prenup" and find out where you stand at that point in terms of trust, commitment and compromise.

There's nothing keeping you from being engaged though, if he really has that commitment then I'd see no fault of him proving his words and intentions...you should not just stick around in this situation indefinitely, tell him you are moving down there to be with him because of a future...not to be roommates or live in a perpetual waiting period of eventually being married...tell him he's got two years max or you're out or whatever you feel is reasonable.

I can almost say with certainty that things will be and feel much different once you are actually living together and experiencing each others lives on a day to day basis rather than LDR...even if you think it's a breeze because you get a long so well and yadda yadda yadda...you don't know a person till you live with them (you probably already know that though) so just take things step by step, but by no means do I think you have earned a stake in him buying a house or being against a prenup...it's too soon in the relationship to buy a house together IMO or feeling you deserve to be more entitled to some of his assets at this point in the financial/living circumstances with no children situation...I just see no leverage or claim on your part...It doesn't bother me if it's a buzz kill romantically, this is real life and it's going to make things easier for the both of you in the future and might even save his @ss since he's got much more to lose at this point.

Keep your assets yours, protect your money, set up a backup and safety net for yourself....don't just act like he's making you do all of this and you're doing it for the relationship/love/marriage, and then say he owes you something for that...remember that its your choice, it's your sacrifice...be responsible and accountable to your own decisions.

October 3, 2013

Must admit some of this pre-nupt stuff is a little depressing, but understandable. My gf makes a lot more money than I do and has been taken advantage of financially in the past to the tune of 10s of thousands of dollars. She has 2 young children of her own as I. She wants to make certain that if we don't make it, that she and her children are protected. I get it. In fact, with her concerns about being taken advantage of, I was the one who suggested a pre-nupt. She was hesitant about bringing it up and feeling guilty, but I understand and it's a relief to both of us that it was brought out into the open.

Of course the agreement will reflect assets accrued prior to, during our relationship as a married couple, so no nasty surprises or anything heartless. She will always make a lot more money than I will unless I win the lottery.

Eh, at our age (40s), a pre-nupt is not such a bad idea or as uncomfortable to consider.

October 3, 2013

First of all if you're asking for legal advice I'd strongly recommend speaking with an attorney rather than a forum as circumstances, laws state to state etc can vary.

As for the relationship, he's being smart about protecting his financial investment/assets...

Interesting points and many I agree with. But to set the record straight:

-We've been together 2.5 years. Only the last year was LDR.

- He did not move to California without consulting me or taking the relationship into consideration. He was offered two jobs, one in California and the other the city we were living in. The California job paid significantly more, and my program in Boston was scheduled to end in a year anyhow. He asked whether he should stay local or go for the money, and (of course) I told him to go for it!

- I know we're discussing his assets here (because he was the one who brought up the Agreement idea and it's an idea I'd not considered before now), but the tenor of some of the posts on this thread is as though I will be making no financial contributions at all. And that's simply not correct. Similarly, I do no intend to live in a house I'm not making payments towards. In other words, it's precisely the position of financial dependence that I'm seeking to avoid... so, that said, I'm not a gold digger looking for a payday.

Anyway, thanks to all for your perspectives. I think I've much to think about going forward.

October 3, 2013

I can almost say with certainty that things will be and feel much different once you are actually living together and experiencing each others lives on a day to day basis rather than LDR...even if you think it's a breeze because you get a long so well and yadda yadda yadda...you don't know a person till you live with them (you probably already know that though) so just take things step by step, but by no means do I think you have earned a stake in him buying a house or being against a prenup...it's too soon in the relationship to buy a house together IMO or feeling you deserve to be more entitled to some of his assets at this point in the financial/living circumstances with no children situation...I just see no leverage or claim on your part...It doesn't bother me if it's a buzz kill romantically, this is real life and it's going to make things easier for the both of you in the future and might even save his @ss since he's got much more to lose at this point.

Keep your assets yours, protect your money, set up a backup and safety net for yourself....don't just act like he's making you do all of this and you're doing it for the relationship/love/marriage, and then say he owes you something for that...remember that its your choice, it's your sacrifice...be responsible and accountable to your own decisions.

I think one challenge to your approach is, as their eventual marriage occurs and life moves forward, it can be hard to financially quantify the sub-earnings partner's contribution to the marriage. I know when I started my business there were periods where I was 110% focused on the growth of that entity and my wife literally did everything else needed to sustain us as a couple/family, kids and house included. There are many overlapping responsibilities in blended lives, some of which don't show up on the balance sheet...

Mr. Lucky

October 4, 2013

So maybe you and your actions are causing this situation to be unromantic and rather awkward? He wants you to feel safe.

Yes. Your post resembles how most of this thing has played out. We're both contributing to the awkwardness, for sure (he is a STEM guy after all, hehe), but there is definitely more than a smidge of his desire to make me feel "safe" in all this future-talk too. For him, the Prenup Agreement was a part of that future-talk I think. Perhaps I ought to let it be.

October 4, 2013

Yes. Your post resembles how most of this thing has played out. We're both contributing to the awkwardness, for sure (he is a STEM guy after all, hehe), but there is definitely more than a smidge of his desire to make me feel "safe" in all this future-talk too. For him, the Prenup Agreement was a part of that future-talk I think. Perhaps I ought to let it be.

Yeah. Not the most romantic thing to consider in a relationship, but he may be doing this to help you feel safe® about the future. Nothing wrong with that....

October 16, 2013

Nescafe, I am now in my third week of going through this process and I will tell you that it is HARD.

I am just a few weeks away from my actual nuptials and we should be writing the vows for our marriage. Instead, we are negotiating its failure.

I didn't realize the feelings of insecurity it would bring up; my own inner demons of insecurity and feelings of unworthiness. Both my fiance and I wish we had started this months ago and had it finished long before this.

We know it is a necessary evil, but we are doing it too close on the heels of what should be a more joyful time of our relationship. My fiance wrote into the pre-nup some very generous provisions, yet my lawyer asked for more - putting a fear into my brain that I'm not getting all I deserve. It is a very fine line and one that has forced me back into therapy, I'm sad to say.

I wouldn't suggest NOT doing it - but I would heartily recommend it be done as soon as there is an engagement and not just before the wedding.

October 17, 2013

Thank you for your insight on this, CarrieT.

With our cross country move coming up this week, the issue hasn't come up again in discussion. I think if it does come up later though (you know, after the engagement for starters, lol) I have a better sense of what is involved going in.

I hope you and yours get through the nits and bolts and get back to enjoying your marriage very soon!

October 17, 2013

We haven't finished ours, but we visited the lawyers and set everything out etc 6 months prior to the wedding. We don't have the funds to finish it off but we have all the terms/numbers agreed etc.

I would NOT have wanted to be thinking about it as part of the lead up to the wedding. Carrie is right.

October 18, 2013

It seems like this happens to women who would never want to put up with this crap. You need to believe in yourself and that your feelings and opinions are justified. I would not marry a man who made 150g vs my 60g and sign a prenup. What exactly is the point of marriage then? So you can tend on him with very little security?

My bf is a stubborn man's man and he is definitely on the way out. We have been together for 3 years and its basically been torture. Get him to change his views on that (good luck) or dump him. Sorry it's prob not what you want to hear and I know it's only my opinion but I enjoy your posts and wanted to comment because you seem like a strong woman to me!

Also, (sorry to double post), I think it should be known that we have already basically agreed that when it comes to geographical location, his career will take precedence over mine. This is not some kind of anti-feminist thing and yes, I've read Lean In, but in practical terms it is better for both of us long-term to live where his job takes him.

But at the same time, this puts a damper on my own career. Doesn't kill it completely, but lets just say that my job search will be longer, and my salary probably lower, as a result of my decision to put his career frist.

So I balk at the notion that we should waive "communal property and income" if married. Because if I'm making sacrifices and taking risks in the name of commitment, shouldn't I expect the same from him?

IDK. Any thoughts you all can offer would be appreciated.

October 18, 2013

I thought about this some more and changed my mind a bit. It seems pre nups are common these days and it does make sense to want to avoid the drama of a brutal divorce. I wouldn't want the woman to not get 50% though. It should be written in a way so that you get half.

It just seems a bit unfair to the lower earning spouse to me.

October 18, 2013

Do you have a significant amount of personal debt? Student loans, credit card debt, medical bills, car loan, etc.? Will most of your income be going towards paying off your personal debt for many years?

October 18, 2013

I guess I'm old school, but in my marriage we share everything. Once we got married, it became "ours".

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He wants a Prenuptial Agreement. How do I approach this topic?

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