The Leavers & Alleviating Their Guilt? What Happened To Commitment?

October 4, 2013

my grandmother once told me an older lady in her 70s told her when she was younger: " those old couples you see that have been married for 50+ years, honey they suffered and went through hell and back and dragged on just because, don't think is all magic and love that got them there." That old lady was herself married for 57 years, her husband was abusive, emotionally mentally and the works, i guess thats commitment.

October 4, 2013

my grandmother once told me an older lady in her 70s told her when she was younger: " those old couples you see that have been married for 50+ years, honey they suffered and went through hell and back and dragged on just because, don't think is all magic and love that got them there." That old lady was herself married for 57 years, her husband was abusive, emotionally mentally and the works, i guess thats commitment.

And I disagree with that. She said it was "hell" at times only because her husband was abusive. It shouldn't be that way for everybody. You know what I bet? I bet the reason why her husband didnt change his abusive ways was BECAUSE she worked with him. The military says dont negotiate with a terrorist. Same thing applies to an abuser in a marriage.

October 4, 2013

Agent, then it comes down to the reasons of why you make the commitment in the first place and if both parties want to work on it.. year after year.. decade after decade.

But if someone is not willing to actually walk the talk... then they should not say the words.

October 4, 2013

I think what behaviour you tolerate in your marriage is a matter of personal limits. I know marriages that have survived infidelity, but only because both spouses wanted it to. I know marriages that have survived through mental illnesses too. I feel abuse is very different, whether it's physical or emotional, and here the line gets blurred. It's a question of what you can stand. For example, if your spouse drinks a bit too much, is that a reason to leave? If your spouse occasionally shouts and slams a door, is that a reason to leave? If your spouse suffers depression...? If your spouse suffers depression and as a result behaves strangely and insults you...? Suffers from depression, drinks and hits you...? Has an affair and regrets it...? Has multiple affairs and doesn't regret a thing...? There are many combinations of behaviours, and I think we don't always know where our limits of tolerance are until we actually find them.

Edited October 4, 2013 by K Os

October 4, 2013

But he needed an EXCUSE. and that's all it is (in most cases) an EXCUSE. The WS MAKES the marriage "miserable" in their own mind and convinces themselves that they "deserve happiness" so that they can cheat or leave with as little guilt as possible.

That's right. It's all about alleviation of guilt. Actually in my clearer moments I find it psychologically very interesting. The mind does that to protect its owner from suffering. The same as the betrayed person's mind takes steps to protect its owner from pain (weeping, reaching out for support, deciding the betrayer is an utter bastard, taking control of what's left), the betrayer's mind takes steps to protect its owner from massive guilt, which is also destructive. This is why we get so much rewriting of marital history, illogical arguments, and plain b/s in the mix. And probably neither person is fully aware of the mechanisms. Of course you can't communicate any more when this happens. Human minds are tricky beasts and need proper training

October 4, 2013

Me too!! Once you can separate your own pain.....I dove into the psychology of it all. And I'm amazed at the stories here....(in a sick way) that they all come down to the same scenario......different, but the same.

It's almost predictable.

Yes, it does get quite familiar after a while. Not meaning to minimize anybody's pain on here. As you say, you need to get past it to see things. It's like a form of illness, with recognisable symptoms. Only it takes two people to have this one...

beenkilled - but you survived

October 4, 2013

Marriage and happiness are choices. If you choose to get married, then you are choosing to combine yourself with your spouse. It is no longer about your happiness, it is about our happiness. You both must work together to keep that happiness. You must willing to give freely without keeping score. Choices must be made on the basis of our happiness, not for one or the other. Once either party stops thinking in those terms, then the marriage will falter. Part of marriage is putting the marriage before the self and that seems to be harder and harder to do in this world of ME, ME, ME.

Another problem I see is that too many people think it is their spouse's job to make/keep them happy. Happiness is a choice you make for yourself. No one else can make you happy and if you don't understand this - don't get married because this attitude will eventually lead to apathy, lethargy and indifference which will kill a marriage just like it has killed many civilizations.

October 4, 2013

Marriage and happiness are choices. If you choose to get married, then you are choosing to combine yourself with your spouse. It is no longer about your happiness, it is about our happiness. You both must work together to keep that happiness. You must willing to give freely without keeping score. Choices must be made on the basis of our happiness, not for one or the other. Once either party stops thinking in those terms, then the marriage will falter. Part of marriage is putting the marriage before the self and that seems to be harder and harder to do in this world of ME, ME, ME.

Another problem I see is that too many people think it is their spouse's job to make/keep them happy. Happiness is a choice you make for yourself. No one else can make you happy and if you don't understand this - don't get married because this attitude will eventually lead to apathy, lethargy and indifference which will kill a marriage just like it has killed many civilizations.

Yes. This exactly. I'm still trying to figure out what happened in my marriage, but this resonates. My H viewed our issues as mine to fix. I had to make him happy. I did try to be the change several times but it couldn't be sustained because then I was the one making all the effort, and it was a terrible feeling knowing that if I dropped the ball, it would all fall apart. So we would hit a snag and it was a house of cards. He very much depended on me to make him happy. I think that's why I was/am willing to stick it out and he isn't.

I don't expect anyone to be miserable for life. But the wedding vow "for better or worse" means something, right? Doesn't it mean when it's worse, we'll work to make it better? (Note I am not including abuse or betrayal here.)

October 4, 2013

To play devil's advocate, perhaps this is part of our evolution. 50 years ago, people were more afraid to divorce and may have stuck together, all the while staying misrable. But they stayed with it due to "commitment." Frankly, if you are, deep-down, in a constantly unhappy place because of the person you're with, then what is the point? What's the point of living that way? Is it not better to seek out a solution for everyone involved that everyone can live a fulfilling life? I've said this many times before: what example are you setting for your kids? Do you want them to find the right partner for them and hope for a life of happiness? Or do you want to teach them it's ok to stick with someone who sucks the life out of you in the name of "commitment?" To me, it's bullsh*t. I don't wish the latter on my kids. Ever.

I'm not advocating affairs, btw. That's a different beast altogether. I feel it's best that you be honest and extract yourself from whatever commitment you have and then you can bang away.

I sort of take offense to anyone saying that my decision is poor because I won't honor some commitment. Sorry, but I married THE WRONG PERSON FOR ME AND I AM UNHAPPY ON EVERY LEVEL BECAUSE OF IT. I recognize the impact it will have on my family in the short-term. If not, I would have dropped the bomb a long time ago. But, here I am, three years later after my revelation. This is NOT an easy decision for me - in fact, it's been agonizing for me - and I think some people here are trivializing this because they got burned.

October 5, 2013

I read this great book once and it said, simply, "you know when you are happy." If you are not happy, you know it.

I think the people who say that it's ok to separate when you are in an abusive relationship are off the mark. Why let it get so bad, why did those people stick together so long to begin with?

Likewise with affairs. So it suddenly becomes ok to separate when you finally break down and cheat...but before that point, you're just a quitter?

If you are not happy, sleep on it, try to work it out inside. But, if months go by and you still feel like you made a mistake, get out. Get out before you cheat, drink, abuse your spouse, get depressed, or waste any more years of your partner's life or yours.

As for those old married couples...the only one I knew went through hell, back, and now they live in separate rooms in the same home. They got married way too young, made each other miserable on repeated occasions and they will die loving each other, to an extent, but also having hurt each other incredibly. I don't want to die thinking "my life was pretty miserable, but at least society saw how committed I was." Forget that, it ain't worth, YOLO. Feel free to burn me for saying yolo

October 5, 2013

I'm not advocating affairs, btw. That's a different beast altogether. I feel it's best that you be honest and extract yourself from whatever commitment you have and then you can bang away.

I sort of take offense to anyone saying that my decision is poor because I won't honor some commitment. Sorry, but I married THE WRONG PERSON FOR ME AND I AM UNHAPPY ON EVERY LEVEL BECAUSE OF IT. I recognize the impact it will have on my family in the short-term. If not, I would have dropped the bomb a long time ago. But, here I am, three years later after my revelation. This is NOT an easy decision for me - in fact, it's been agonizing for me - and I think some people here are trivializing this because they got burned.

I do take your point, GuyInLimbo. If someone has been deeply miserable in the marriage for years and years, and the marriage is genuinely the cause of that unhappiness, then taking that tough decision makes sense, and I do know it can't be an easy path. I agree with you completely, though - "it's best that you be honest". What usually causes a great deal of pain for the abandoned spouse is dishonesty, lack of clarity or excruciating indecision (all three in my case). Also the major complaint is about the warping of history that often accompanies the decision. My wife's claims about her long-term unhappiness simply didn't add up when you take into account that we were expecting babies in the two years before things started to turn weird. We were together for 16 years altogether, and from my point of view only the one year before she annnounced the split was less than good. None of her alleged misery was apparent *at all* for nearly 15 years, and I just don't believe the revisionism. This distortion of memory is deeply confusing and hurts a great deal, and I'm not alone in this pattern.

I also think it's not always the case that the marriage is the true cause of the personal unhappiness. If there are no options left and you feel you've exhausted any other possibilities, then fine, say so very clearly, explaining the reasons, and leave as quickly, cleanly and decisively as you can. The person will get over it in time, and at least you have been fair and honest. But often there are other causes of personal misery and the spouse gets the kicking for it. They are small psychological steps from "I'm unhappy" to "I'm unhappy in this marriage" to "This marriage is making me unhappy". It does happen that a spouse leaves and the unhappiness persists.

I don't mean to trivialize your experience or your decisions, and I understand there are two parts to all our stories. I don't believe in "commitment" and I don't believe in doing things "in the name of commitment". But I do believe in commitment. You can't force commitment. I think it's a question of how deeply you feel committed to your partner. When push came to shove I was more committed to my wife than she was to me. But I'm not now. I was forced to change my mind

Edited October 5, 2013 by K Os

October 5, 2013

i think that you can only define how you feel marriage should be and live by the vows that you say, i feel if people look at the words in those vows , really believe them, commit to keeping them before they stand up and say them, then those vows are more likely to be honoured...... whatever society thinks or the next person thinks doesn't really count on the day that you and your intended marry the only thing that counts is the two that are marrying.....they are the ones who have to commit to keeping the vows......

if you dont believe in marriage you shouldn't marry......i believe in monogamous marriage and I accept that others don't feel the same way...... hopefully i will meet someone who shares my view.......if not ......such is life.... doesnt mean i dont still believe in the concept of marriage ...just didnt happen for me....i know of many it has happened for and it restores my belief, marriage works for people who honour their vows they make ..deb

October 5, 2013

I think the people who say that it's ok to separate when you are in an abusive relationship are off the mark. Why let it get so bad, why did those people stick together so long to begin with?

People do that because there's love there. The positives outweigh the negatives. When the negatives outweigh the positives, things fall apart.

Likewise with affairs. So it suddenly becomes ok to separate when you finally break down and cheat...but before that point, you're just a quitter?

No, you're a quitter both ways. Just that if you force the issue by cheating, you're a scumbag as well

If you are not happy, sleep on it, try to work it out inside.

Or even (radical idea, this) don't keep it all inside and sleep on it but TALK ABOUT IT to your spouse. Openly, honestly and often.

But, if months go by and you still feel like you made a mistake, get out. Get out before you cheat, drink, abuse your spouse, get depressed, or waste any more years of your partner's life or yours.

Yes.

Just on a side note because I can't skip over it, when I talk about depression and other mental illness, I'm not talking about a marriage getting you down. I'm talking about suffering from clinical depression, which is an illness. This can lead to relationship breakdown when the relationship isn't the problem.

October 5, 2013

i think that you can only define how you feel marriage should be and live by the vows that you say, i feel if people look at the words in those vows , really believe them, commit to keeping them before they stand up and say them, then those vows are more likely to be honoured...... whatever society thinks or the next person thinks doesn't really count on the day that you and your intended marry the only thing that counts is the two that are marrying.....they are the ones who have to commit to keeping the vows......

if you dont believe in marriage you shouldn't marry......i believe in monogamous marriage and I accept that others don't feel the same way...... hopefully i will meet someone who shares my view.......if not ......such is life.... doesnt mean i dont still believe in the concept of marriage ...just didnt happen for me....i know of many it has happened for and it restores my belief, marriage works for people who honour their vows they make ..deb

LOVE THIS and very true!!!

October 5, 2013

What Happened To Commitment?

Good question. The divorce rate is at 45% (for first marriages). I think too many people go into marriage thinking of it as something they can always terminate if it doesn't work out. The thing is, feelings of love come and go throughout a marriage, which is pretty normal. Rough times come and go in a marriage as well, which is also normal. The problem is, many people are not so inclined to stick it out through rough times or when the marriage is in a down cycle. They are not so inclined to work through problems, but rather to run from them thinking things will be different with someone else. Then they experience a wake up call with the new person when similar or other issues interfere with the new relationship, and they realize they are no better off with the new person. We live in a throw away society. An instant gratification society. A lot of people aren't willing to go through difficult times or work through problems. They have unrealistic expectations that everything should be good all the time, and if it is not, they go looking for something/someone who will give them those temporary good feelings. So they cheat, or they divorce, rather than working through issues with the person they were committed to.

What ever happened to Til Death Do us Part, not until I don't feel that passion burning love anymore???

Yes, people have unrealistic expectations that they will always feel this passion and love for their partner throughout marriage, and bail when they don't, rather than working through difficult times, or working to restore the passion and love in their marriage.

With over half of us in the United States ending up in divorce... what the mother effing eff?!

Actually, the figure is less than 50% divorce (for first marriages). The most recent figure I've seen is 45%, and some say it is going down. I blame infidelity to a large part for the high divorce rate, because so many divorces are caused by infidelity, and people going to look for the next "feel good instant gratification," rather than honoring their commitment and working on fixing their marriage. But it's also the marriages that don't involve infidelity, where one or both people call it quits because they aren't "feeling it" anymore for their partner.

Do people in general just not realize what commitment is anymore?? or is it that it has become so easy and accepted to get a divorce that it becomes an easy out?

Yes, it's become an easy out for people, unfortunately. Third marriages, fourth marriages, and even more, are not uncommon these days. Just from the people I know IRL, I can think of some on their third marriage, their fourth, and even one that has been divorced six times. People I know personally. Unfortunately, this has become the norm: multiple marriages, multiple divorces.

Or do people just NOT want to do the work that marriage is???

In many cases, this is true. People are looking for the quick fix that divorce provides, although as I said, the same or other problems arise in subsequent marriages, so that quick fix without putting the work in to resolve issues, is short lived and temporary. However, as I said earlier, much of the divorce rate is due to infidelity. Infidelity is also, however, often stemming from that desire for a quick fix, or a temporary escape from problems, rather than doing the necessary work to resolve the issues in a marriage.

Do people not realize that it is not going to be sunshine and unicorns all the time and that burning passion is not always going to be there

No, they don't realize it. Many have an idealized idea of marriage, rather than a realistic one, and when the marriage does not always live up to their idealized idea of what it should be, or how their partner should be, they look elsewhere.

Why is it just so easy to throw your hands up in the air and say "Pfft well the love is not what it was...and the grass must surely be greener so I'm gonna go and get me some of that grass?"

Yes, unfortunately, that is too often the case, with people thinking things will be better elsewhere than in their marriage, but all too often, it is no better, and the same or other problems will surface in the new relationship. The divorce rate is much higher for second marriages (65%), and even higher for subsequent ones.

Are you always going to fall out of love?

Love is a feeling that comes and goes throughout marriage. It takes a lot of effort and time investment to keep a marriage strong and to nurture the feelings of love so that it stays alive. I think the key is to make the investment in time and effort to nourish a relationship throughout marriage, but to also have realistic expectations that you are not always going to have these high or intense feels of love or passion throughout.

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