losing patience with women...

[James-London]

Hi there,

 

I think I might have a slightly unusual problem with women. Whenever I am out with my guy friends we often end up chatting to a few women after a few drinks. I do like women, its just I get so bored of all the silly games they play. I really resent how the onus is always on the guy to serenade them and impress them. Even if the girl really is interested, she will expect me to put my ego on the line and do all the hard work.

 

In these situations, I am saying to myself - why can't she try to impress me for a change? What is so special about her? I see my friends firing loads of questions at them desperately trying to keep the girl interested... and it just feels a bit lame to me.

 

Please don't get the wrong idea about me. I'm not happy that I feel this way... My friends end up getting girls and I don't (well occasionally at least)!! So I know i'm doing something wrong here... I don't think I am anything special myself and i'm not overly confident with women. I just wish women could make as much effort with me as they expect me to make with them!!!

 

hope that makes sense.

[hppr]

Well you're on the right track.

 

Obviously if what you and your friends did worked then you wouldn't be here because you'd be getting laid. They probably aren't, they may tell you that they are but they aren't, at least not with regularity.

 

The key is to go out, have a good time and not give a damn, if that makes sense. Once you adopt that mindset you will have more fun flirting with them because 1) you won't care if you get laid or not and 2) if they are boring or running a game on you then just walk away and find something else fun to do.

[lollipopspot]

Where are you meeting these women?

 

I think a lot of women don't respond this way, and show the guy she is interested.

 

I'm wondering for you and your particular relationship style, if a better way to meet women might be in some adult-interest class or activity, where you get to know someone over a longer period of time and in a less pick-uppy atmosphere than a bar or club?

[jacksonvillae]

I think a lot of women don't respond this way, and show the guy she is interested

[El Brujo]

I don't worry myself sick over it.

 

I know that a lot more men than women want relationships, at least in the region where I live.

[TigerCub]

What are these things that "she will expect me to put my ego on the line and do all the hard work. "?

 

I honestly don't know what these acts that make you put your ego on the line to make her happy are.

[TintedChrome]

why can't she try to impress me for a change? I just wish women could make as much effort with me as they expect me to make with them!!!

 

Let's see, women spend a ton of time and money getting their hair styled, lipstick, eye liner, ear piercings, manicures, plucking eyebrows, laser hair removal, bikini waxings (YYEEEOOWWWWWW!!!), push-up bra, wearing pantyhose in hot weather, wearing short tight skirts in cold weather, walking in high heel shoes on uneven surfaces, perfumes and antiperspirants, surviving on water and lettuce to stay thin, etc. etc. etc. all so she can look good to us men.

 

Besides all that, I do understand your frustration. I know it's easier said than done, but try to let go of the anger. Spending more time with low-pressure activities and less "pickuppy" (love that term) stuff is a good idea.

 

So you have friends that you go out socializing with? That's great! You can learn from them. Ask them "Hey guys, how do you do it? Teach me!"

 

(Note: All the women reading this, keep doing what you're doing, including the stuff I listed above, we guys really appreciate it, I didn't mean for you to stop......)

[TintedChrome]

What are these things that "she will expect me to put my ego on the line and do all the hard work. "?

 

I honestly don't know what these acts that make you put your ego on the line to make her happy are.

 

It's the task of approaching and opening women, and having to be eloquent and charming and humorous and blah blah blah. The work, if you want to call it that, is really just all in our heads.

[Keenly]

Well James, you resent the male ritual of having to work harder than the other cocks in the barnyard by strutting your tail feathers and puffing out your chest just a little more than the others hoping to win the favor of the hens, and we ladies resent the agony of forcibly passing something the size of a watermelon out of our bodies and past our loins during the process of procreation.

 

Yeah, you ain't lived 'til you've done that, my friend.

 

We all have our roles to play in the ancient art of the mating call, the subsequent mating dance and the process of procreation between the sexes, and complaining about it ain't going to change thousands of years of human biology.

 

That's the worst arguing point ever.

 

And to that other poster, women don't get dressed up to impress men. They do it go themselves. ( or so they say ) .

 

 

Either way, I don't really care which sex does what.

[pteromom]

I really resent how the onus is always on the guy to serenade them and impress them. Even if the girl really is interested, she will expect me to put my ego on the line and do all the hard work.

 

In these situations, I am saying to myself - why can't she try to impress me for a change? What is so special about her?

 

Don't put your ego on the line. Your ego shouldn't be tied to whether some girl responds well to you or not. You have to go out there knowing that you have something to offer to the right girl (whether it is a relationship or just one amazing night). You have to realize up front that you aren't everyone's type, and that there are also girls out there who already have boyfriends, are severely damaged people, or who are not interested in dating for whatever reason. You can't take it personally.

 

Being bitter and resentful is just going to make you LESS attractive. Instead, put that burden down, and go out to have fun. If you get a girl's number, bonus! But have a good time, flirt, laugh, be silly, dance... whatever it is that makes you happy.

[pteromom]

That's the worst arguing point ever.

 

And to that other poster, women don't get dressed up to impress men. They do it go themselves. ( or so they say ) .

 

The basis of the argument is that it has always been the role of the man to pursue. And whining about that fact doesn't change it. It's just the way it is.

 

Women can dress up for themselves, for men, or both. But if a single woman is going out to a club and is flirting with guys, you can bet that she dressed up at least partially to attract men.

[Keenly]

The basis of the argument is that it has always been the role of the man to pursue. And whining about that fact doesn't change it. It's just the way it is.

 

Women can dress up for themselves, for men, or both. But if a single woman is going out to a club and is flirting with guys, you can bet that she dressed up at least partially to attract men.

 

That's not what I was talking about . I was talking about how bad it makes my brain when some one says " I do x so you must do y " and so I reeeeeally hate it when a woman says " we give birth, therefore men have to do x "

 

 

Men don't HAVE to do anything. You can get girls without ever approaching a single time.

 

Just ask me.

[pteromom]

That's not what I was talking about . I was talking about how bad it makes my brain when some one says " I do x so you must do y " and so I reeeeeally hate it when a woman says " we give birth, therefore men have to do x "

 

I didn't read it that way at all. I read it as each gender has natural roles. Obviously a man doesn't HAVE to approach women.

 

But it is always better to take your fate into your own hands and make things happen than to sit back and wish things were different.

 

Men don't HAVE to do anything. You can get girls without ever approaching a single time.

 

Just ask me.

 

???? Maybe I am mixing you up with someone else, but didn't you recently post a thread about your online profile and how you weren't having good luck?

 

If not, sorry. I thought that was you. But at any rate, if you can get girls without having to put in any effort - good for you! I don't think that is true for all men though.

[James-London]

I should say that I do not have that much problem getting girls. I am not the biggest player but I do meet girls who are interested in me. So, I really do NOT need to take any lessons from my friends - thanks.

 

My point is that in the "mating game" the girl dresses up pretty and it is the guy's responsibility to walk across the bar, introduce himself, pay her a compliment, buy her a drink, ask her the questions etc. Girls will sometimes do that but it is pretty rare.

 

I feel sorry for the girls in some way because they are limiting themselves to only those guys who will approach them first. That is pretty lame in my view.

 

Also, when you actually start talking to girls, the conversation usually starts like an interview where you have to ask them questions, keep them entertained and tell them jokes.... girls do reciprocate by asking the guy some stuff, but only later into the conversation.... again - totally lame.

 

Girls always complain about how guys don't respect them or see them as equals. I get upset about that too - I'm a feminist deep down inside. But women do themselves NO FAVOURS by behaving as I describe above.

[candie13]

It's a dance. You seem to prefer more sure-of-themselves, aggressive women, those who would express their interest openly. I am sure this type of women do exist.

 

In Europe, that is extremely rare. It's just a custom, for men to approach women. Sure, personally, if I find a guy interesting, I'd make sure he notices me glancing at him and smiling. If he can take a hint, great, otherwise, fine.

 

If to you that is "putting your ego on the line", then maybe picking up women in bars isn't your thing, and you should try other activities where women would feel comfortable to approach you and start conversations. It's what works for me, less forced than initiating conversation with a complete stranger who may be cute but utterly boring.

 

However, after the initial get-to-know each other stage, there's always that point of building and maintaing interest. Indeed, I agree with you that this part should be mutual - not just the guy's role to "impress", but both partner's role to discover each other and "work" at building a connection. Provided that there is interest, attraction... u know, a connection.

[James-London]

Looking again at everyone's posts, I'm feeling a little more philosophical about all this now. I still think that walking up to a girl and striking up a conversation takes guts and confidence and I still think that it is almost always the role of the guy to do this. Girls get to sit back and get all the attention from the guys hitting on them and this happens (at least overtly) less often the other way round... Overall, it is the guy who chases.

 

Maybe this is "unfair" but then girls have to give birth, as I think one previous poster said... I guess this is just the way life is and me feeling annoyed about it will not change anything. I will just be left without any girls.

 

I think maybe the thing is that I prefer high brow conversations to small talk and I like girls who can challenge me and stimulate me. I will think more about meeting new people in different environments, possibly through new social groups where we can share activities of common interest together.

[lollipopspot]

I still think that walking up to a girl and striking up a conversation takes guts and confidence and I still think that it is almost always the role of the guy to do this. Girls get to sit back and get all the attention from the guys hitting on them and this happens (at least overtly) less often the other way round... Overall, it is the guy who chases.

 

I'd re-think the "Girls get to sit back..."

 

Each gender has these socially constructed roles. There are so many books out there telling women not to go after men or make the first move, to let men pursue, or the man will take it as desperate and lose interest, because he likes to "hunt." And for a lot of men, this is true. It's socialization and social prescription that women ought best to wait to be pursued. It's not this fantastic thing that favors all women and allows them to be lazy.

 

It's a trap for both genders. Because for some men it's not their nature to put themselves out there. And for some women, they have difficulty attracting and no one approaches them, yet their socialization tells them to wait until someone comes to them.

 

As you know, it's hard to overcome your socialization and society's prescription for how males and females "should" act, because you've been hearing it since you were born.

 

But I'd still try to meet women in the kinds of environments where a relationship develops more naturally. For many people this is a lot more comfortable way to form relationships.

[candie13]

 

I think maybe the thing is that I prefer high brow conversations to small talk and I like girls who can challenge me and stimulate me. I will think more about meeting new people in different environments, possibly through new social groups where we can share activities of common interest together.

 

This whole discussion is about you, realizing what works for you and what doesn't. You learn new things about yourself, that is great news. IMO, you gain twice by focusing on your hobbies: you take pleasure in doing something you really enjoy and you get to meet people who are passionate about the same thing. You already have something in common .

 

Coming back to meeting women & bars: if you feel uncomfortable to go and strike up a conversation in a totally unfamiliar place with a complete stranger, it doesn't mean you will end up alone. You can always be the wing guy, the one able to build a conversation, should you team up with a guy who's great at approaching women, if you feel that you're missing out.

 

But there are so many other things, your friends, your colleagues, house parties, your friends' friends, plenty.

 

I think the biggest barriers are the ones we set ourselves.

 

Plenty of women appreciating high brow discussions, James. The question is... you think these women hang out in bar and spend their time being picked up by strangers ?

[HoneyBadgerDontCare]

Hi there,

 

I think I might have a slightly unusual problem with women. Whenever I am out with my guy friends we often end up chatting to a few women after a few drinks. I do like women, its just I get so bored of all the silly games they play. I really resent how the onus is always on the guy to serenade them and impress them. Even if the girl really is interested, she will expect me to put my ego on the line and do all the hard work.

 

In these situations, I am saying to myself - why can't she try to impress me for a change? What is so special about her? I see my friends firing loads of questions at them desperately trying to keep the girl interested... and it just feels a bit lame to me.

 

Please don't get the wrong idea about me. I'm not happy that I feel this way... My friends end up getting girls and I don't (well occasionally at least)!! So I know i'm doing something wrong here... I don't think I am anything special myself and i'm not overly confident with women. I just wish women could make as much effort with me as they expect me to make with them!!!

 

hope that makes sense.

 

It's all about supply and demand.

 

In today's dating world, women are in high demand and most men are in low demand (unless the man is very good looking, has high status, etc). This is why you need to impress them and they don't need to impress you: their value is higher than yours, as designed by society (a reverse to the way things used to be).

 

You have 2 solutions:

 

1) Accept this and acknowledge the fact that you will have to put in more effort than the woman.

 

2) Become high demand.

[M30USA]

LOL, back to the OP...

 

Dude...you got a LOOOOOOOOOONG life ahead of you with regard to women and games, assuming you're pretty young--as am I. There are just some things that won't change. I guess you gotta decide to check out or check in. I've learned that all women are crazy, it's just matter of degrees. I wish you luck.

[ZipperZapper]

It's all about supply and demand.

 

In today's dating world, women are in high demand and most men are in low demand (unless the man is very good looking, has high status, etc). This is why you need to impress them and they don't need to impress you: their value is higher than yours, as designed by society (a reverse to the way things used to be).

 

You have 2 solutions:

 

1) Accept this and acknowledge the fact that you will have to put in more effort than the woman.

 

2) Become high demand.

 

Or you could do what I'm planning to do - go overseas to find a wife. Men who find themselves not in demand at home do very well overseas because the dynamic there is the total opposite of what it is here.

[TheBathWater]

+1 to candie13's post. I was going to chime in with something similar, because everyone always defers to the biological argument like a false God.

 

To the OP, your mindset is not whack. You sound like someone who thinks for themselves and prefers to be authentic to how they feel inside rather than go against themselves just to look better, get more ass, etc... It is a difficult position to be in, as you know, because we are people too who want something real.

 

You are feeling pressured, and it makes total sense to me. Men generally have less flexibility on the spectrum of gender than do women. They can get away with more masculine traits/behaviors/attitudes than can men these days. Women are still subordinated in many ways, often unrecognizable ways, but I think the ways in which men are underhanded are even less apparent.

 

So, before I go into too much of a Marxist-feminist tangent here, let me say that I think you should keep thinking for yourself, even though it is going to suck big time. It's that, or live ignorantly against your own authenticity. You'll have to decide over time which is less painful.

 

My next beer is to you, buddy.