Dating now vs. late 80's early 90's

[thefooloftheyear]

Unfortunately, most men do view relationships as a power struggle. Look at how many men hate marriage nowadays because women are more equal. No more having the upper hand all the time makes men unhappy.

 

 

Some men, anyway....I actually think men are more content to be married even if things arent exactly perfect..Some women tend to be too idealistic, therefore, if things arent unicorns and rainbows, they head to where the grass is greener...or so they hope anyway..

 

YMMV

 

TFY

[Sanman]

I don't think it is men or women, but rather people being selfish. We currently live in a society that is more selfish than ever. It used to be work for a company 30 years and get a gold watch. Now, it is work for a company 30 years and get a pink slip because you are old and your salary is too high. If you look at the messages that women get, it is about being independent, doing what you want, and having the man of your dreams swoop in and marry you whenever you feel ready. Sex and the City condones 30-40 year old women running around with rich guys who are unavailable and hit while dumping perfectly good guys for not feeling 'it', whatever it is. I can't think of a single positive male role model on tv. Most fathers are portrayed as bumbling idiots that would be consuming highly salted foods in their underwear while staring at the tv at all times of not for their wives. Society tells us that being a single parent is not only alright, but encouraged. So, forget raising a child on your own out of neccesity, go have a baby because you feel like it and damn the consequences to the child. The United States, in particular, is a selfish place. We bow down to capitalism and selfishness, while seeing those that want to help others and weak and unworthy...like the bleeding heart liberal who teaches because s/he can't hack it in the real world. After all this, we look around and wonder where all the standards have gone. We eroded them without considering the consequences of doing so. Then we sit and complain that we can't find good people to date, mate, marry, or work for us.

Edited September 26, 2013 by Sanman

[EasyHeart]

am very traditional and feminine.

I just have trouble thinking someone with "Wolverine" in their user name is "very traditional and feminine".

[GoodOnPaper]

Most of the unhappily married women I know arent too idealistic. Their husbands are not fulfilling basic (in my opinion) requirements for a marriage. Men are too selfish nowadays. Men become complacent and emotionally neglectful over time too, thats where most of the unhappiness Ive seen comes from. The majority of men in the US dont think emotional neglect is worth divorcing over as long as they are getting sex. A divorce attorney told me this and said hes not surprised the divorce rate is 50%.

 

Boys learn early that any show of sensitivity gets them rejected by girls. They (the girls) want to hook up with stereotypically dominant alpha-male types. It shouldn't be surprising that a significant number of men who are good at attracting women aren't the best equipped to navigate the emotional aspects of maintaining relationships.

 

Interesting that this comes up in a thread about the late 80's/early 90's. That was my dating era and culturally it was a strange time for young men. Extreme mixed messages -- on one side, you had a teenage John Cusack declaring his undying love to girls in sappy rom-coms, and on the other side, heavy metal music was raising the bad-boy persona to unprecedented heights. Of course now, the hierarchy has been clearly established -- it's OK to show a little sensitivity as long as you are built like a physical trainer or otherwise able to attract a lot of women based on looks alone.

[TB Rhine]

Look at how many men women hate marriage nowadays because women are more equal. No more men having the upper hand all the time makes men women unhappy.

 

Fixed that for ya!

 

The above poster says it better than I ever could. "Sensitivity" is valued in men insofar as they display a panoply of other characteristics related to masculinity, and are physically attractive to boot. Sensitivity in and of itself has never, and will never, attract a woman, despite what women like to tell themselves (and men, unfortunately).

Edited September 27, 2013 by TB Rhine

[kenneth1010]

Maculinity can not survive on it's own. Neither can femininity. They are complimentary. One is not better then the other.

 

Yin and Yang described perfectly there.

[Quiet Storm]

I remember in early 90s when my husband I would send each other messages on pagers, before they invented texting on cell phones.

 

7 3707 1 Turned upside down on a pager was "I love u"

 

 

 

My oldest is 17 & a senior in HS. He is good looking, tall, popular & smart. He has lots of girls sending him sexy pics. Some could even be considered child porn (I explained this & tell him to NEVER forward, always delete). Some girls have no shame these days.

 

I had a Dad that was real with me. I think many young girls need a dad to explain men & sex. They need a father to look over them & protect them. Many girls are people pleasers and think giving a guy sex will make him like her more. They know guys watch porn, they watch it, and think that's what men really want in a girlfriend. They have no one to guide them. Many parents aren't comfortable discussing this stuff, but it must be done f we want to prepare our kids for the real world. People do have their own agendas, and it is SO beneficial to kids if they learn to recognize a player & a manipulator.

 

Regardless of these teenage girls & their "availability", my son still says that he wants to get married & have kids. He has my husband & I as a model (22+ years), but lots of kids these days don't have that. Many of his friends have divorced or never married parents. They see their parents bounce from person to person and think that's the way it should be.

 

Parents need to do more. I talk to my kids about sex, porn, weed, drugs, relationships, personality disorders, FOO issues, love, commitment, integrity and the importance of keeping your word. And all of this can be done without religion, because I'm not a believer. Just follow the golden rule.

 

If you are one of the people that did not have a good model, you can learn this stuff. Counseling can teach people coping skills, improve self worth, teach you how to deal with difficult or manipulative people, help you overcome FOO issues, such as neglect or abuse, or just having clueless parents.

[Els]

Boys learn early that any show of sensitivity gets them rejected by girls.

 

 

Nah. The bf has had a 50% success rate in his lifetime by 'showing sensitivity'. That's pretty good, all things considered.

 

Then again, I suppose it depends on your metrics of success. His goal was never 'sleeping with as many girls as he can without strings attached'. If that is one's aim, then your advice would definitely make sense.

[Sanman]

Nah. The bf has had a 50% success rate in his lifetime by 'showing sensitivity'. That's pretty good, all things considered.

 

Then again, I suppose it depends on your metrics of success. His goal was never 'sleeping with as many girls as he can without strings attached'. If that is one's aim, then your advice would definitely make sense.

 

I hate to disagree, but while there are women that do appreciate sensitivity, I find far more women are not interested in a sensitive man. At least not one that is sensitive to everybody on a regular basis, perhaps just them (to make them feel special) after they are in a relationship and want someone to listen to them. I can't count the number of people (even on here) that will tell a guy to man up if he complains about his difficulties. Men do not share their difficulties with each other as women do and neither men nor women are used to dealing with that type of behavior from men. It is a major difference in socialization between sexes and something I have accepted.

 

More to the point, there are great women that will accept a man and be a great partner, but I tend to see fewer of them as the years go on and it took a while to find the one I have now. I am friends with a great woman at work and her fiance is a lucky guy, but she grew up on a rural farm and her values are very different from most of the women I see in the metro northeast. As Quiet Storm mentioned, I do believe a key ingredient in this is a stable and healthy home life with both parents, something that happens much less often as the years go by. As I was saying in my previous post, you don't see much in popular media either. So, where is a child to get a healthy image of how life is supposed to be? More and more, I don't believe that they have one. Hence all the poor behavior we witness as adults in the dating world.

[Els]

I hate to disagree, but while there are women that do appreciate sensitivity, I find far more women are not interested in a sensitive man.

 

Correct.

 

I suppose the question then is, do you want a woman who appreciates sensitivity, or do you want a woman whom you need to hide your true self to 'succeed' in dating her?

 

Genuinely feeling and demonstrating sensitivity only 'gets them rejected by girls' if they're going after the wrong girls.

 

To add, I think our definitions of sensitivity might be a little different? I'm not talking about sensitivity in the sense of someone who takes offense at every little thing that is said and constantly complains about all of it. That, to me, would be unattractive. By sensitive, I mean empathic towards others' needs and feelings, and is able to put others before himself when he needs to.

Edited September 28, 2013 by Elswyth

[taiko]

I hate to disagree, but while there are women that do appreciate sensitivity, I find far more women are not interested in a sensitive man. At least not one that is sensitive to everybody on a regular basis, perhaps just them (to make them feel special) after they are in a relationship and want someone to listen to them. I can't count the number of people (even on here) that will tell a guy to man up if he complains about his difficulties. Men do not share their difficulties with each other as women do and neither men nor women are used to dealing with that type of behavior from men. It is a major difference in socialization between sexes and something I have accepted.

 

More to the point, there are great women that will accept a man and be a great partner, but I tend to see fewer of them as the years go on and it took a while to find the one I have now. I am friends with a great woman at work and her fiance is a lucky guy, but she grew up on a rural farm and her values are very different from most of the women I see in the metro northeast. As Quiet Storm mentioned, I do believe a key ingredient in this is a stable and healthy home life with both parents, something that happens much less often as the years go by. As I was saying in my previous post, you don't see much in popular media either. So, where is a child to get a healthy image of how life is supposed to be? More and more, I don't believe that they have one. Hence all the poor behavior we witness as adults in the dating world.

The key word there is "woman" as in adult, maybe potentially a grandparent. However boys learn the opposite in their efforts to get a sex partner and the balance shifts over decades while he has a "life" partner, perhaps the first of three.

[Sanman]

 

To add, I think our definitions of sensitivity might be a little different? I'm not talking about sensitivity in the sense of someone who takes offense at every little thing that is said and constantly complains about all of it. That, to me, would be unattractive. By sensitive, I mean empathic towards others' needs and feelings, and is able to put others before himself when he needs to.

 

I don't think our definitions of sensitive are that different. For most men I know being empathic and considerate of the feelings of other comes along with wanting their feelings heard and considered by others. The experience of myself and many men I know has been that they want men to be empathic regrading their feelings and problems. However, when it is their turn to be empathic and listen to the man's problem, he is told he is complaining and needs to man up. For most men, or people, it goes both ways. You feel and are empathic or are simply shutdown. What a lot women are asking for is an emotional tampon that needs no support from them in return.

 

 

I think this has to do with overlap of traditional and modern roles men are expected to fulfill. They are expected to me traditionally masculine at times and more in touch with their feelings when it suits other people. They are expected to help out more at home, but many women still want a man that makes more money than they do. Certainly, I see women pick jobs and careers they enjoy with less regard to income while when are still trained to consider themselves bread winners. What you end up with in those situations is a man with no emotional outlet who gets to works hard and cool his own dinner. I see this in my friends as well. One of my friends works a finance job he hates to support him and his wife while she returns to school again and again to pursue what she enjoys. Meanwhile, he also does all the grocery shopping and splits other household tasks even when she is on summer break lounging around.

Edited September 28, 2013 by Sanman

[Quiet Storm]

I don't agree with that. The girls who are hitting on your son aren't doing it due to a lack of a male presence in their lives. Many girls have fathers, fathers who care about them, but they still go out of the house in shorts, shorts, flirt with every boy who comes into their line of vision, and compete with their girlfriends to get the most good-looking/popular boy.

 

Why does this happen? First of all, mommy wants her daughter to look pretty and sexy. Thongs have gone from being part of a woman's lingerie, what she would put on when she felt like getting frisky with her husband, to pretty much being used by every female aged 13-35 on a daily basis.

 

Hell, I doubt there's a 13-35 year old female out there who doesn't wax her genitalia, gotta keep up with what the other girls are doing.

 

Second, can we please stop with the nonsense that teenager girls aren't interested in sex? That they have sex with the future NBA players and MLB champs because they are emotionally attracted to them, and believe the only way to have a relationship with them is to put out?

 

Teenager girls are just as crazy about sex as teenager boys, what people keep on forgetting is how the attraction works for both sexes. Teenager boys are attracted to anything with breasts. Teenager girls are only attracted to the most good-looking/tall/fit of the boys in their middle-schools/high schools, and then we have people assume that these girls get hurt because the guys they want are douchebags.

 

No, the guys these girls want are the most desirable of males. Obviously they're going to do what they want, which is to sleep with as many attractive females as possible, and the girls who have sex with them aren't doing it to trap them into a relationship - they know these guys can get sex on demand - they do it because they want to have sex with them.

 

Do girls need to poop? Or they're trying to create an emotional connection with the toilet?

Back when I was in middle-school there was a scandal involving many girls 13-17 dressing up in lingerie, taking pictures of themselves in lingerie and sending those pictures to each other. Who buys their lingerie? Mommy. Dad has anything to say ?Nope. Better keep on slaving away, unless he wants to be divorced.

 

Bottom line is, girls already get the ''boys and sex'' talk from their fathers. The thing is, they don't care. They're bursting with hormones and they're going to go after the boys they want - your son, for example. Boys should be seperated from girls, at least it would prevent them from wasting their life away chasing girls and eventually women.

 

But there are positive consequences coming out from uncontrolled female sexuality. The average guys notice how most girls throw themselves at your son. They begin to talk amongst themselves. ''Why should I approach her, talk to her, ask her on a date, pay for it, and jump over x obstacles for a single kiss on the cheek, while this guy gets laid left to right without working for it?''

 

Then these kids discover Porn and begin to use porn as their sexual outlet. They develop their sexual responses accordingly to the type of women they watch in those porn movies. They lose the capacity to become attracted to everyday women. Women phase out from the ''I'm only interested in Alpha boys/men'' which usually has its beginning at the age of 13 and ends at the age of 25, she's now looking for something ''serious'' with a guy who wasn't in the alpha category, but since the guy spent his teens and early 20's jerking off, he can't muster the necessary arousal to spend time with her.

 

And one more boy/man is saved from marriage, child-support, slavery, and alimony. There's always a positive in everything. The guys who are the most popular with women tend to be the ones who waste away their lives with women, either sleeping with them or chasing them, and the men who are rejected in their teens and 20's(most of them), if they are smart, will want nothing to do with ''love and commitment'' and will enjoy life on their own.

 

I don't believe that girls are out seeking sex because of hormones. Most women don't even O through sex, even with older, more experienced men. These young girls get more sexual pleasure with their shower heads than by having sex with boys that get their knowledge from porn.

 

Women have far less testosterone than men, and men make the mistake of assuming that the physical drive for sex is as strong in women as it is for them. In most cases, it is not even close. Women love sex, but their hormones are not usually strong enough prompt them to pursue it for the act of sex itself. Women on testosterone therapy will say how strong their drive is, how sex is always on their mind, how they want it all the time, how they've never felt like that before. I agree that biology is responsible for girls preference for alpha types, but most are hoping that they are special enough to tame the alpha. They want him to pick her for a relationship. The competitive behavior with teen girls is not about who can have the most sex with the cutest boys. It's about who can get the cutest boy to be with them, in a relationship. They want to be the chosen one.

 

The girls are seeking attention, validation and love. Sex & photos are their currency.

Edited September 28, 2013 by Quiet Storm

[Els]

I don't think our definitions of sensitive are that different. For most men I know being empathic and considerate of the feelings of other comes along with wanting their feelings heard and considered by others. The experience of myself and many men I know has been that they want men to be empathic regrading their feelings and problems. However, when it is their turn to be empathic and listen to the man's problem, he is told he is complaining and needs to man up. For most men, or people, it goes both ways. You feel and are empathic or are simply shutdown. What a lot women are asking for is an emotional tampon that needs no support from them in return.

 

Well, yes, a lot of people are looking for someone to fulfill their desires without actually caring about the person. But that goes back to what I was saying: Picking your partner wisely. If these men's wives/gfs are genuinely disinterested in ever listening to their problems, then one must ask the question: Why are they still in those relationships? Why be with someone who doesn't care?

 

For the record, my experience has been that most of my girlfriends wish their partners would talk to them more about their problems, the menfolk just don't wish to. My own bf knows that he is always welcome to talk to me about his - and he does, often - but sometimes he chooses not to because he feels that talking about them makes him feel worse.

 

I think this has to do with overlap of traditional and modern roles men are expected to fulfill. They are expected to me traditionally masculine at times and more in touch with their feelings when it suits other people. They are expected to help out more at home, but many women still want a man that makes more money than they do. Certainly, I see women pick jobs and careers they enjoy with less regard to income while when are still trained to consider themselves bread winners. What you end up with in those situations is a man with no emotional outlet who gets to works hard and cool his own dinner. I see this in my friends as well. One of my friends works a finance job he hates to support him and his wife while she returns to school again and again to pursue what she enjoys. Meanwhile, he also does all the grocery shopping and splits other household tasks even when she is on summer break lounging around.

 

Sanman, I'm worried about you because you seem to be going down the Woggle route, and you are a genuinely nice person whom I would hate to see that happen to. Surely you realize that this doesn't just go one way? Have you not heard the women who talk about working full-time jobs, then coming back to the bulk of household chores and childcare? One of my friends works full-time and supports her 'writer' fiance, who does none of the housework. Seems fairly similar to your friend with the inconsiderate summer break partner, yes?

 

I think you may find it helpful to see these incidences as individual relationship dynamics, rather than an overall men-vs-women thing (and this goes for the women who complain about the FT-job-plus-housework, too). All of us here live in free countries, where we are able to make our own choices. If we are unhappy with the balance of workload in our individual relationships, we have options. Try to work out a compromise, or leave.

[ltjg45]

For the record, my experience has been that most of my girlfriends wish their partners would talk to them more about their problems, the menfolk just don't wish to. My own bf knows that he is always welcome to talk to me about his - and he does, often - but sometimes he chooses not to because he feels that talking about them makes him feel worse.

 

I'm curious. What did you see in your current BF that got you to want to get into a relationship with him? What did you expect from him that you couldn't provide by yourself besides love and companionship?

[Sanman]

Well, yes, a lot of people are looking for someone to fulfill their desires without actually caring about the person. But that goes back to what I was saying: Picking your partner wisely. If these men's wives/gfs are genuinely disinterested in ever listening to their problems, then one must ask the question: Why are they still in those relationships? Why be with someone who doesn't care?

 

For the record, my experience has been that most of my girlfriends wish their partners would talk to them more about their problems, the menfolk just don't wish to. My own bf knows that he is always welcome to talk to me about his - and he does, often - but sometimes he chooses not to because he feels that talking about them makes him feel worse.

 

 

 

Sanman, I'm worried about you because you seem to be going down the Woggle route, and you are a genuinely nice person whom I would hate to see that happen to. Surely you realize that this doesn't just go one way? Have you not heard the women who talk about working full-time jobs, then coming back to the bulk of household chores and childcare? One of my friends works full-time and supports her 'writer' fiance, who does none of the housework. Seems fairly similar to your friend with the inconsiderate summer break partner, yes?

 

I think you may find it helpful to see these incidences as individual relationship dynamics, rather than an overall men-vs-women thing (and this goes for the women who complain about the FT-job-plus-housework, too). All of us here live in free countries, where we are able to make our own choices. If we are unhappy with the balance of workload in our individual relationships, we have options. Try to work out a compromise, or leave.

 

 

 

 

No need to worry about me. I really am not that jaded and it isn't that there are not women out there that are the bread winners that take care of the home as well. My issue is simply one of socialization and the fact that, at least in my part of the world, certain double standards do exist at this moment in time. It may be different in upside down land:p or other parts of the world. What I am talking about is the lack of awareness people have about who does what. The lack of fixed roles mean it is easy to take advantage others. Granted, I live in New York so I a lot finance guys are married to women who don't pull their weight as much and there is a reason the word princess is associated with women in my upper middle class/affluent area. However, it is not as if a man has an equal chance of finding a woman if he wants to be a stay at home dad as visa versa. I am not judging people or women. Rather, I am saying that living in a time of transition following the feminist movement has led to significant confusion and many people take advantage of that confusion to their benefit. I do believe that more social messages need to be targeted onward men as I do believe that, especially in the U.S. the lack of positive role models in society is causing them to struggle. We have talked about this before, but ask many women in the U.S. to give up being paid for on dates and engagement rings for the sake of equality and you will get a lot of push back. Even my gf, who is very much for equality our relationship will not go without her engagement ring. Add to that the disposable nature with which many people see significant others and you get a very tough dating market. However, just because I see inequity in society does not mean I have lost faith in women or humanity. It simply means that it is harder to find what you want in this world because the mixed messages we receive mean that every person has different expectations of a relationship and I do feel that values have become eroded in general because of this.

Edited September 29, 2013 by Sanman

[Els]

I'm curious. What did you see in your current BF that got you to want to get into a relationship with him? What did you expect from him that you couldn't provide by yourself besides love and companionship?

 

Well, love and companionship is a HUGE deal, yes? It's not exactly a side dish.

 

But aside from that, I fell for him mostly because of the mental/emotional connection, and how well he treated me. My experience has been that many guys of my generation are rather self-absorbed and shallow, driven by instant gratification. To find one who was the exact opposite of that, AND who was attracted to me and I him - well, it felt like finding a diamond in the rough.

 

 

No need to worry about me. I really am not that jaded and it isn't that there are not women out there that are the bread winners that take care of the home as well. My issue is simply one of socialization and the fact that, at least in my part of the world, certain double standards do exist at this moment in time. It may be different in upside down land:p or other parts of the world. What I am talking about is the lack of awareness people have about who does what. The lack of fixed roles mean it is easy to take advantage others. Granted, I live in New York so I a lot finance guys are married to women who don't pull their weight as much and there is a reason the word princess is associated with women in my upper middle class/affluent area. However, it is not as if a man has an equal chance of finding a woman if he wants to be a stay at home dad as visa versa. I am not judging people or women. Rather, I am saying that living in a time of transition following the feminist movement has led to significant confusion and many people take advantage of that confusion to their benefit. I do believe that more social messages need to be targeted onward men as I do believe that, especially in the U.S. the lack of positive role models in society is causing them to struggle. We have talked about this before, but ask many women in the U.S. to give up being paid for on dates and engagement rings for the sake of equality and you will get a lot of push back. Even my gf, who is very much for equality our relationship will not go without her engagement ring. Add to that the disposable nature with which many people see significant others and you get a very tough dating market. However, just because I see inequity in society does not mean I have lost faith in women or humanity. It simply means that it is harder to find what you want in this world because the mixed messages we receive mean that every person has different expectations of a relationship and I do feel that values have become eroded in general because of this.

 

Ah, okay, fair enough.

 

I guess I don't attribute much importance to complete equality in relationships because, well, biological differences just make that impossible. When it comes down to the crunch, if a couple wants children the woman is going to be the one to have to spend 9 months pregnant and a few months recovering (even more, in terms of effects on her body), and oftentimes is also the one to sacrifice her career for the newborn. How do you offset such a huge sacrifice on the woman's side?

 

And that's just the most obvious difference - there are several others, such as how each person interprets love/sex, what makes each other happy, what influences their attraction, etc.

 

So that's probably why, to me, the most important part of the balance is not necessarily 50/50 equality in a relationship, but that both partners are happy.

[TB Rhine]

But what's the alternative? Have the woman be the breadwinner, the man stay home and take care of the kids? It'll be exactly six months before she's leaving him for the pool boy.

[Sanman]

Well, love and companionship is a HUGE deal, yes? It's not exactly a side dish.

 

But aside from that, I fell for him mostly because of the mental/emotional connection, and how well he treated me. My experience has been that many guys of my generation are rather self-absorbed and shallow, driven by instant gratification. To find one who was the exact opposite of that, AND who was attracted to me and I him - well, it felt like finding a diamond in the rough.

 

 

 

 

Ah, okay, fair enough.

 

I guess I don't attribute much importance to complete equality in relationships because, well, biological differences just make that impossible. When it comes down to the crunch, if a couple wants children the woman is going to be the one to have to spend 9 months pregnant and a few months recovering (even more, in terms of effects on her body), and oftentimes is also the one to sacrifice her career for the newborn. How do you offset such a huge sacrifice on the woman's side?

 

And that's just the most obvious difference - there are several others, such as how each person interprets love/sex, what makes each other happy, what influences their attraction, etc.

 

So that's probably why, to me, the most important part of the balance is not necessarily 50/50 equality in a relationship, but that both partners are happy.

 

 

I'm not saying it has to be 50/50 exactly and being happy is important. However, fixed roles meant that it was easy to decipher who should do what. What happens when neither party wants to take on a task or role now? One or the other usually gets the short end of the stick. It is rare to find two people that are willing to share those burdens equally to benefit the other.