Breadcrumbs --- I responded ANGRILY

[lindsay1990]

Hello all,

 

Dumpee. Together 10 m, lived 1m, broke up, moved out, I left country.

 

 

Unfortunately I found this site too late, and before that I made every mistake you can imagine has been made by anyone before and after. From crying and begging to pleading to threatening to fighting and guilt-tripping before moving out. It is an extremely intricate story, but I suppose everyone must feel the same about theirs and having been reading here for 6 weeks I realize my feelings and doubts are not uncommon. So thank you for that LS, as I thought I would lose my mind over guilt.

 

My question right now refers to an exchange that broke No Contact.

 

For some context, broke up with boyfriend over recurring trust issue a month after moving in (had been fighting and uncomfortable previously as right before move-in we had fought and he had told EVERYBODY in his life the details and I had an extremely difficult time facing the, going to events with them so I was basically acting out out of insecurity and embarrassment and need for reassurance. Told him to leave house after fighting for 36 hours because we this was impossible if he would not put me first in trust issue (a female friend he was extremely close with, and was part of her courtship, relationship, marriage, separation to the point of nearly emotional affair, right before I met him - she called him after 11 p.m. two nights before break up (sh ehad a habit of only calling late to check in) and I got mad asking him to have her back off and to call him in the afternoon, at a ' decent' time, that this woman should be calling her husband instead of him. Anyway.... he refused and we argued and broke up.

 

So, that day he was set to leave the house (and town, to his parents house) and literally 20 minutes after breaking up I went back after him to tell him to stay to reconsider, that I was sorry, etc. He said it was over, he was crying and said the fighting was too much. (We are 25 myself, and 27 him. I was first girlfriend).

 

However, he came back home.

 

1st week since that: refusing to get back together, fighting, arguing, saying that what I did nobody does, that I was constantly abusive (I repeatedly questioned his relationship to this woman as he had admitted to having emotional affairs with two other married women right before I met him, and he insisted I had labeled him and was attacking his character. I admit I could have overly demanded he just have "normal" girl friends, not woman friends in the middle of whose relationships and intimacies he had been in). He aired every single grievance to his parents and brother and sister, spilling on all our other fights since the beginning of time - his family doesn't know the extent of the emotional affairs with 2-3 woman previously and why I could not make peace with that. He was furious.

 

2nd week: he said the best he could do was have me stay for five more weeks, and at the end we would "see where we were", and as I was from a different country and had to leave for visa reasons he said "we would see if we were at a point to do long distance or not". I asked if that basically meant we would see at the end of the five weeks if we stayed together or not. I said he was proposing a sort of trial period, like 5 weeks free, and then at the end opt in or opt out. I calmly declined and said I was sorry for everything that had happened, but that I loved him and wanted things to work but that either we stayed together then and there and worked through things, or we stayed broken up. I argued it was unfair and almost cruel for me to stay for five weeks at our shared apt. trying to "be on my best behavior" crossing fingers and praying that at the end of five weeks we would decide that okay, he wanted to stay together.

 

He spoke to his mom and dad about it, and came back saying that that was an emotional manipulation on my part and that everything was black and white with me, that they had realized I had BPD (I had to look that up) and that 5 weeks was the most he could offer and that I should take it or leave it, but that that sort of "ultimatum" was tantamount to an emotional threat. I tried to be patient and again for this whole second week said that it wasn't a threat but that people who talked about marriage, moved in together and broke up, don't just move out or take a breather. Much less if I was moving out of our place to go back to my country, so I could not agree to the five weeks and that thank you and that I was sorry.

In this second week he would repeatedly (9 times) come back and forth from saying it was over to we would try, out of his own will, out of my influence sometimes too, but then he would leave the house and talk to his parents and come back and break up "again". I had had it.

 

3rd week: After being stuck at that point for the second week, at the beginning of the third week he recalled me arguing about us having had a commitment when we moved in together and that at that point it required an extra effort from the both of us. He said he wanted to do the right thing and "try". I was insulted and harshly replied that I was not pregnant for him to have to do the right thing and said that if he wanted to be with me it was because he loved me not because he owed it to me. That we had indeed made a commitment but that it was not vows so he owed me no favors.

 

Throughout all this I had plans to move out 2 days after the three weeks were up, as it was a few days after the Bar exam. So, the days came for me to move out and we did not reconcile. I was clear in that if I left, we would not reconcile or be friends after. I explained that I could not be friends with him because throughout the fallout of our romantic relationship, he had trash-talked me, aired our dirty laundry, dared to psychoanalize me with his family and friends, kept me in the dark about his thoughts and feelings, villanized me, not to mention treat me with horrible indifference and that that was too humilliating to be friends.

 

So, I left. He did not stop me, even though the night before I was crying and obviously hoping he would ask me to stay after all. He kept insisting that the five weeks were not enough for me and that I was manipulative, and that it wasn't good enough for me because everything had to be on my terms.

 

I strongly suspect he said the five weeks knowing I would never agree, not necessarilly out of pride (because GOD did I BEG!) but because it sounded horrible and he had mentioned the first week, in this anger, that he didn't see himself feeling differently at any point. So I had to remember what he said and take his word on that.

 

So.... I left our apartment not a month after moving in did not hear from his since, but know his parents went to town that very same day, with his younger brother in tow as well and spend 5 days there with him. I think they were also going to sign him up in some therapy as he had severe OCD his whole life and flew off the rails during our break up.

 

 

 

Anyway, 10 days after I left and there was ZERO contact between us (on the date that I had expressed before a tentative departure date from the country to go back home) he finally sent me a text the following:

 

 

<snip>

 

 

-- Ring is one I lost while packing and it may be in my luggage but I asked him to let me know if he found it, to send me an email if he did.

 

 

 

 

After reading this site, I make that the "I love you" was his way of saying he cared about me and felt guilty of having back-and-forthed me during those three weeks, for me crying, for the things he said, etc.

 

And as for the "I wish you the best", to me this negated any intent of reconciling or regret for breaking up. It was more like he had come to terms and accepted the break up was for the best and he just doesn't want me to hate him.

 

 

What would you make of his message? I know this was very long, and I appreciate enormously who would ever read it and provide input. I just don't know if I am predisposed to see everything as breadcrumbs or read too much into it from reading other posts.

 

 

(btw, I replied five days later very angry, I messed up because I was extremely insulted from feeling that with the "I wish you the best" he was basically re-breaking up with me, or insisting it was the right move. I was very hurt and offended that he would write me non-information about a ring he hasn't found, just to rub in my face, maybe unconsciously though.)

 

 

I am worried then If I misconstrued the sentiments behind the message and blew any chance at reconciliation by replying in anger as if he had just added insult to injury????

 

 

Thank you again for reading

Edited September 17, 2013 by a LoveShack.org Moderator

[Zahara]

I don't think you misconstrued his message. He broke up with you and if at any point he regretted his decision, he would have said so, in clear simple text. He wished you safe travels and that means he was abiding by the decision that he made.

 

As for your lashing back at him, I understand that you were upset. You have to let that go. Even if you do find the ring, don't reach out to him.

[lindsay1990]

Thanks for your reply, Zahara. I do wonder though if we had been each other's faces so much those three weeks and at that point, I was also very relieved to be away from the drama and the conflict. I question if is possible he was trying to open contact a bit in a few weeks or months time? Maybe he (I know....ugh) missed me? And wanted to set the frame for maybe opening the topic again in the future?

 

DO you think this was a realistic possibilty or am I trying to believe what I want to believe?

 

 

 

I replied extremely HARSHLY though:

 

<Snip>

 

 

 

I was furious. Evidently. :/

 

 

Any chance that with this message I blew any other intent he might have had? I wonder is I was rash expecting some sort of regret just 10 days after I left the apartment and the town we lived in. He is a notoriously passive guy.

 

Thoughts please?

Edited September 17, 2013 by a LoveShack.org Moderator

[Zahara]

This was a 10 month relationship. Too many red flags. It revolved around so much drama. Commonly, trust issues. And adults don't run crying to their parents about fights in their relationships. Gaslighted you over his involvement with that woman and refused to compromise. And you kept stating in your reply that you hardly knew him.

 

Putting his intent aside, why would you want to revisit this again, even if he wanted to?

[forgetmenot75]

Hi Lindsay, you need to calm down. I haven't read the whole thread, but you need to stop wondering why he does this or write that. From the email he sent you the I love you meant he still have feelings for you though not romantic ones. The I wish you luck or something like that he wrote you is very clear in that he doesn't want to continue with this relationship.

 

He said you were abussive. And then you responded angrily to some messages he sent you. Stop doing that, for your own well being. Stay no contact for a while and see what happens. As for the ring, you can email to him that you prefer to stay no contact and that he can email your mom if he finds it.

You need to take distance because your emotions are all over the place right now.

[lindsay1990]

I suppose you are right. I said "I never knew him" because he was just so incredibly cold and indifferent towards me. I would be packing my things and sobbing and he would around me or just go to another room as if I was a ghost. It was also like I was now the worst person he had ever met.

 

But you are right that he gaslighted me about the thing with that woman.

 

He had stopped all contact with another one whom he had had an emotional affair with, he admitted this. But with this other particular one, he always denied it and claimed is to have been really close friends with both the husband and her, and he would be their go-between during their separation. Oddly enough, a couple of months after I started going out with him they reconciled and I suppose it's because she realized that she had messed up her marriage and everybody around her was in love, involved, etc and went and got her husband back.

 

He always said they were just friends and they didn't even talk that much by the time we lived together. But I remember fighting with him on a Friday night about it and all though Saturday even telling him: "I can't believe you would rather fight with me than tell this woman to back off!" and he replied with "I think you have issues you need to address".

 

I'm going in circles I know... he even swore (to me, his family, the therapist a day we went) that it was different with this couple, i.e., not an affair with her but that he had found himself overly consumed by their relationship and their relationship problems.

 

So I sometimes think he just got fed up with me not trusting him. In any case, I dumped him the following Sunday morning and he would not take me back after that. :/

 

Maybe I WAS exaggerating with his woman friend? Since day 1 when I met him he admitted to the other emotional affairs but was always adamant he had been different with this couple. Perhaps I made a huge mistake but regardless, I feel he woul dhave taken me back right?

[lindsay1990]

Thanks forgetmenot. It has been a month since this exchange and I have found myself second-guessing is such a harsh reply was not a mistake, and if maybe it was just a breadcrumb to open some contact after but I blew it when he was still nervous about the whole thing.

[Zahara]

I think that's just common with some people in terms of dealing with emotions. They shut down and evade as much as possible. I'm not sure if he turned cold or indifferent towards the end but if that is how he behaved throughout, that's a sign of emotional immaturity.

 

The thing is, your relationship should have been priority to him. If him being a go-between was affecting his own relationship, then he should have placed boundaries and compromised in hopes of fixing his relationship before anyone else's. The fact that he gaslighted you was not a good sign.

 

Trust is earned. It isn't given. You're not entitled to it. You work for it. You shouldn't be so hard on yourself in that he got tired of you not being able to grant him that.

[lindsay1990]

Thanks Zahara.

 

 

I think I might have made a mistake. He wasn't a go-between anymore but I am inclined to think that it's more because they had reconciled and didn't need him mediating.

 

I think the bigger issue for me was the fact that he had distanced himself somewhat from this woman, which I didn't ask him to do outright. Even the day of the fight, I was insistent was that he tell her to call him at a 'decent' hour. He said she was just waiting a flight and wanted to say hi but I argued that at 11:00 p.m. she should be calling her own husband and not my boyfriend, specially as we had moved in together and he was a committed man now and I didn't appreciate his female friend calling on him so late.

 

I guess at that point it was more an issue of him not being able to tell her to back off, he ignored the call (didn't pick up) but this didn't suffice for me, as this was a woman whom he talked with everyday on the phone (was her sounding board, her shoulder to cry on, etc) right before we got together.

 

I would love to know if I was too unreasonable in this regard, as I still feel I was right about this point and likely would push it on my future relationships and definitely do NOT want to make this mistake again, if it was indeed mine that finally did us in.

 

I say he was also a passive guy so I wouldn't expect him to confront this girl friend, but I wasn't asking him to be rude to her. But he is a guy who when somebody parks in his space he would rather park some place else than have it towed or confront. Did I push too much, and should have accepted that he would simply not pick up? The next day I was clear though in saying that what bothered me is that he would rather fight with me over this. But, was I demanding TOO much and expecting him to be TOO accommodating? Was he just immature and I pushed him to his limit as well?

 

 

If so, I also don't want to make somebody else feel like this again in the future.

[Zahara]

If a couple needs mediation or help, they should seek a therapist. The fact that he got so involved whereby it was turning into an emotional affair should have been a clear enough indication that it was time to step away and focus on his own relationship.

 

There was nothing wrong with you trying to create boundaries within your relationship. It wasn't just a female friend, it was someone that he was getting emotionally attached to.

 

And who wants to deal with a passive guy. One that is more concerned about another woman's feeling versus the feelings of his own girlfriend? You didn't say to him that he should stop talking to her, you just asked him to create some boundaries. And that to him justified a break-up?

 

Sometimes I wonder if there's more to that story.

[lindsay1990]

Baaahh, the more I read you the more I think I messed up. I mean, he didn't break up because of that but I did. Then he wouldn't take me back on account of my trust issues and him feeling that it would never change and had no future because of that.

 

Also, it got into his head that it was abusive for me not to trust him. That (yes I would get mad and him and lose my temper but it'snot like I was belittling him). I did however call him a liar and manipulator but ya know. I think what did him in was seeing that I would break up because the trust issues constantly, that I couldn't make my peace with them and he felt I would never.

 

Still, I will always think that if he knew that, and he saw me so distraught over her calling, just telling to back off was something he would have done. Unless he was more afraid of what she would think than of what I would think so... I think that's what you are saying.

 

I think they were already too emotionally attached even though they didn't speak that much anymore. I always felt he identified more with her than with her husband, and he had told me himself that when they met years ago (8,9?) in undergrad they almost went out but ultimately "she was too combative" for him. So that kinda led me to think he carried a torch for her. I don't know. I will be petty and say that unlike him (ha!) I'm not into psycho-analysing the other person.

 

But yes, if it was getting to me that much, he should have put me first and done what it took to make me feel at ease.

 

And it's not like she called Friday night and I demanded he call her back immediately. We argued about this all Saturday, I was sullen all day and just ranting the night before I broke up with him on Sunday. I think he could have made me feel better, but chose not to.

 

And then I gave him his chance out, by breaking up with him. Ha. Oh well. Thanks!!

Edited September 16, 2013 by lindsay1990

[Zahara]

It doesn't matter if you broke up or he broke up. The fact that you could not establish trust in your relationship, it was never going to work. One being that he would not compromise or set any boundaries. Two being that you couldn't get the security you needed within the relationship.

 

Not trusting him has nothing to do with abuse. That's him gaslighting you. As I said trust is earned. If he was engaging with a woman that a some point he nearly had an emotional affair with, there should be boundaries. He should be making you feel secure about it. It's not about you making peace with it. It's an effort that needs to be put in from both parties. It's a relationship.

[lauri]

It doesn't matter if you broke up or he broke up. The fact that you could not establish trust in your relationship, it was never going to work. One being that he would not compromise or set any boundaries. Two being that you couldn't get the security you needed within the relationship.

 

Not trusting him has nothing to do with abuse. That's him gaslighting you. As I said trust is earned. If he was engaging with a woman that a some point he nearly had an emotional affair with, there should be boundaries. He should be making you feel secure about it. It's not about you making peace with it. It's an effort that needs to be put in from both parties. It's a relationship.

 

Exactly. It is a RELATIONSHIP which involves equal effort from both sides. If one is putting more than the other, its doomed to fail. No matter how perfect you may think things may have been or could be.

[Apparition]

This guy sounds toxic, not the right person to be in a relationship with. I don't know him, but from what you said about him airing out your "dirty laundry" and doing what he did (putting that woman before you and taking issue with the fact all you did was ask she call in the afternoon) I wouldn't trust him or even give him the time of day. I think it would be best if you just cut all ties with him, I mean changing everything like your e-mail address or blocking his and changing your number so he has no way of contacting you. If he finds your ring, you should just send him a letter asking him to mail it to your address if he finds it, but that is all. Nothing more. You let him basically call all the shots and that will make you someone's doormat. Trust me, I've been there. Has he ever heard of a thing called "respect"? Because he needs to show it.

 

Anyway, flick the breadcrumbs away, get all dolled up even if you don't feel like it and go hit the town or do something with friends. You need to force yourself into trying to forget him even if it's so difficult, but it will take time and you shouldn't dwell or mope around during that time because it only makes it slower and more painful.

[lindsay1990]

Zahara, I love that you said even "nearly" had an emotional affair with. Thank you for your input, you as well Lauri.

 

When you say gaslighting, it is ironic to me that I feel he did it to me even through the end of the relationship. For example, he accused me of being abusive early on, when he told me about the emotional affairs with other women and I freaked out. Not yelling but definitely freaked out saying that it concerned me so much that either he didn't think it was that bad to get so close to these women, or that he did and did it anyway, thus he was a guy who would put his own interests before his morals. Additionally, when he would confront me about my trust issues and he would say he was young and lonely when that happened, but it wouldn't happen with me, I would always reply that I couldn't quite not worry about that, as I found it extremely hypocritical that he would also be friends with these women's husband.

 

I said to him many times: "it would be less bad if these were just random married women who you slept with, and you could tell me it was a fetish, it was a rush, whatever. But these are people to whose house you would go to, play tennis with the husband, go grocery shopping with the woman, have all these inside jokes with the women only and have all this intimacy and "best-friend-liness" with the women, as if you LIKE to be the BETTER man. The one that DOES get them, that DOES understand them. I said this worries me because you would go to their married HOME as this sort of friend. I just can't relax with the fact that you don't see how insane this is."

 

 

From this he said that I had called him a hypocrite, that I labelled him as a cheater (eventually during the break up I did call him a cheater, I said "you don't have to be the one in the relationship to be cheat"), and basically that I destroyed his character.

 

The first time we had this conversation, he took it extreeeeeemely hard. Like, he was sullen and couldn't eat the whole next day, he said he had too much guilt. I found it suspicious that he was *too* guilty, and I'm not going to call him a fullblown narcissist but I think this should have been my first sign of narcissistic tendencies, as he took it really bad. Like he was *too* disappointed in himself.

 

Back to the point, he would repeatedly call me abusive, he started throwing psychological lingo at me, psychoanalising me constantly and on more than one occasion he would "consult" over our issues with third parties. Early on I would tell him I was sorry about the things I would say and I tried my best to think he was really sensitive because I couldn't for the life of me think I had said something *that* bad. But he did not take questioning of his motivations or character nicely. At one point, I even told him he was selfabsorbed if every complaint I had of him he made out to be me attacking his character, and at the end, I realized that his complaints about me were incrreasingly serious because he would also adscribe them to my character.

 

So, after the BU and being called abusive, manipulative, blackmailing (on account of when he proposed the five weeks I fired back saying "I'm not gonna stay here for 5 weeks to give you a free maid and free p**sy while 'you make up your mind'! I will feel used" - he said that that was emotional blackmail because I was forcing to choose between getting back together or "being a user", and I hopeless argued that I was at most forcing him to 'choose' between staying together or breaking up for good), borderline, controlling, isolating, etc. When I finally left, I felt extremely bad and guilty, not even about the relationship but thinking that he had never had a girlfriend and if I could have been so bad like what he would say and his family would say. His mother apparently told him I had many issues and they concluded that I couldn't be happy with him or anybody else.

 

So I started reading on things and I know it was wrong of me now to break up with him several times but I sincerely never thought about it as a real break up, just a fight. We would speak in a matter of minutes, couple of hours, never changing FB status, I don't know I was very immature.

 

In any case, my point is that he would call me irrational all the time. When we would argue, he would also point the crazy finger I realize now. In my common sense, I told him that calling someone irrational was the same as calling them stupid, because it is like whatever they say makes no sense. I said: "you call me abusive because I called you an ******* and a hypocrit, but at least I've never undermined you mentally as if what you say is on a lesser plain that what I say". I realize that up until I left he would always accuse me of being irrational and I would just shut up. In addition to feeling that everything would go through a filter of other people scrutinizing so I would say even less.

Once confronted he even told me that he wasn't saying *I* was irrational, but that I was *being* irrational. When I got outraged at this comment, and I told him he had a double standard, he accused me of being verbally abusive.

 

A big mistake here was showing him that it got to me so much, and he always pulled the irrational you have issues card. After the break up he came to me saying he thought I had abandonment issues and in my naiveté, I actually was open to this (as a reason for supposed fighting) and -since I was from another country- I said that maybe yes, maybe it stressed me to know we would split up/go LDR at some time and that I was sorry. But I was actually looking forward to that, as I thought it was kind of romantic as well. Anyway, from then I see he was already trying to diagnose me.

 

What a ramble. Basically what I'm saying is that out of being called abusive and having the finger pointed at me so much, I started looking into things (I was even ready to apologize to him for hurting him) but realized his behaviors were far more abusive. He may not have tried to control me physically (let's say for arguments sake *I* was in wanting him away from the women friends he was too close with, or could admittedly become too close with) but it was mental. He tried to control the discourse and my interpretation of things. And he would do this all the time until the very end, an dI remember the clear example before I knew the term gaslighting or anything of these things: when he got incredibly defensive about possibly being labeled a user I finally said: "what is it that you want? Do you want me to say that I will stay but if at the end of five weeks you don't stay with me I agree to not call you a user or feel used? You are trying to control from the get-go my version of what happens in those five weeks!". And he accused me of being manipulative.

 

 

Ugh. Thank you both, and you are right Zahara. why would I want any part of this further?

[Zahara]

I've read about narcissism and his behavior seems to check a few boxes.

 

I know you are doubting yourself and I am sure you have an internal battle going on in your head and heart as to who was wrong or right. That's completely normal. You've dodged a bullet here and you will see it in time.

[lindsay1990]

Thank you Zahara and Apparition.

Edited September 16, 2013 by lindsay1990