katielee Posted September 10, 2013 Posted September 10, 2013 how do you know? How much time should pass? yesterday he went to a business meeting and kept me informed the entire time. he won some prizes that we both can enjoy. I said that was great and then later said, "this comes at a price to your wife." meaning that I will always worry if he sees the OW at these - they are business ppl too. He felt cut down. like he just can't win. I guess if a person is in reconciliation they shouldn't say these things. they accept the uncomfortableness. I can't do it. I want him to know how hard it is for me... then he said to make a choice. I said I can't, I'm still grieving.. he said that's not fair to him, not knowing if I'm staying or going. I said that's all I can give and you're probably right. Then this morning he told me to take as much time as I needed.... I'm so tired....
compulsivedancer Posted September 10, 2013 Posted September 10, 2013 how do you know? How much time should pass? yesterday he went to a business meeting and kept me informed the entire time. he won some prizes that we both can enjoy. I said that was great and then later said, "this comes at a price to your wife." meaning that I will always worry if he sees the OW at these - they are business ppl too. He felt cut down. like he just can't win. I guess if a person is in reconciliation they shouldn't say these things. they accept the uncomfortableness. I can't do it. I want him to know how hard it is for me... then he said to make a choice. I said I can't, I'm still grieving.. he said that's not fair to him, not knowing if I'm staying or going. I said that's all I can give and you're probably right. Then this morning he told me to take as much time as I needed.... I'm so tired.... How closely does he work with her? Does he only see her at events, or is it daily? Is it something where he could reasonably request a transfer or look for a different job?
Author katielee Posted September 10, 2013 Author Posted September 10, 2013 He doesn't work with either of them....they are just in the business community and that's how he met them. We have no idea when/if they'll show up.
turnera Posted September 10, 2013 Posted September 10, 2013 Ok. As for what you said to him, what was your purpose? Did you accomplish it? I think you would benefit from digging deeper to discover what you really want. If it's to recover the marriage, some work on your part is in order, to be able to stop punishing him, if that's what you were doing. If you were trying to get support from him, you may be able to work on yourself to learn better behaviors. Is he doing everything you want?
Author katielee Posted September 10, 2013 Author Posted September 10, 2013 Ok. Is he doing everything you want? I guess. I just wanted him to know that I still don't feel safe.
Betterthanthis13 Posted September 10, 2013 Posted September 10, 2013 I guess. I just wanted him to know that I still don't feel safe. Do you want to feel safe with him? Or do you want him to feel bad? Or both? Your situation is very complicated, I'm not trying to be a jerk.
Author katielee Posted September 10, 2013 Author Posted September 10, 2013 I want him to know how terribly difficult this is for me. That I can barely do it. But, is that good for reconciliation? To have something like that hanging over your head, wondering if some day you'll come home and your wife has decided she CAN'T do it and is gone?
BetrayedH Posted September 10, 2013 Posted September 10, 2013 Recovering from affairs on both sides is exponentially more difficult. As the wayward spouse, you have to do an immense amount of work being transparent, anticipating triggers, apologizing, etc and the problem is that you're doing it for someone you don't trust. Sadly, it's nothing like "We both cheated, so we're even and should just leave it in the past." If you're not familiar, the term 'madhatter' is used when someone has been both a BS and a WS. The few success stories I've seen for madhatters have been where both parties did no further comparisons of the affairs (yours was worse than mine, etc) but instead focused on the affairs individually. You have to do your work as a wayward and then you have to endure the process of being a BS (which is primarily trying to determine if your wayward is truly remorseful). From my few brief reads of your posts, your H doesn't sound truly remorseful to me (as he wants you to get over it, feels that you're even, and justifies them because they wouldn't have happened without your affair coming first). As well, you're not doing well as a wayward when you focus on his two affairs somehow being worse than your one affair. This kind of mentality on both parts doesn't bode well for your reconciliation. Do your part as a wayward automatically and then try to determine if your husband is truly remorseful for his affairs (and subsequently, whether you can forgive them). Otherwise, processing all of this overlapping nonsense will be neverending. On a side note, survivinginfidelity.com has an "I can relate" forum and madhatters have their own thread there. It may be worth a read. 2
ComingInHot Posted September 10, 2013 Posted September 10, 2013 As you decide to R or Not yet heal all the same, you will have good moments And bad moments (sometimes within the same half hour!). Then you'll have good days and bad days. Then you'll have trigger moments, times, places & events. Then you'll remember AFTER the fact. Then things will get hazy. Then hardly ever and they won't knock the wind out of you. Finally it will be a remeberence of (hopefully) thankfullness it is all behind you. Whether you stay M'd or not.* For now, your H needs to realize this is not all about himBUT Because of him and he's just going to have to deal w/it or get out!! 1
BetrayedH Posted September 10, 2013 Posted September 10, 2013 I want him to know how terribly difficult this is for me. That I can barely do it. But, is that good for reconciliation? To have something like that hanging over your head, wondering if some day you'll come home and your wife has decided she CAN'T do it and is gone? He needs to know exactly that. That's his burden to carry as a wayward, that his spouse can decide not to decide and that deciding to leave is a real possibility that can happen at any time. It's common for that to be the case for a year plus. If you're still at that point after 3-5 years, it's time to start considering leaving the marriage. He also should have the same latitude. You need to be honest and open with each other. No more conflict avoidance. That's probably a huge part of what got you into this mess in the first place. Unresolved resentment will kill a relationship. You cannot go around it; you must go through it.
JamesM Posted September 10, 2013 Posted September 10, 2013 Going over your past to get a better handle on your situation, I found that you had an affair as well. His affairs happened about a year after yours if I read correctly. And let me quote you from May 2013: My husband had two short affairs where I caught him. Three months apart. Maybe he was acting out because I had an affair first. I don't know. Does the reason really matter. The fact is, I am stuck. I want to work hard to heal myself but I don't really see us having a better marriage than we did before. I'll never trust him 100%. I can't stand the fact that he took these women all over town for lunch and drinks. I would have to put all this behind me to move forward and I just cant' do it. Do I enjoy this pain - no. I want it gone. I'm not sure if I can get rid of it if we stay together. I will never feel for him as I did before. When I read this and what you wrote now, then I ask first: Have the two of you had counseling? Do you have open communication about any situation that might bring up a trust issue? Do you think HE trusts you? I know that it takes time to heal from affairs. It can take up to five years for some depending on how they rebuild their relationship. I have a friend whose husband had one affair, and she emailed me off an on over the first few years after. Her emotions went from sadness to anger to joy back to insecurity and anxiety. It took her a number of years to finally accept that he had changed and she could trust him. Yet 100% trust will probably never happen again. On the other hand, she is very happy that she stayed with him and kept moving forward. She knew when she started rebuilding that she truly wanted to continue her life with him. Can you say that yet? I think you may need to reach that point before you can accept him and your marriage as it is. Trust is earned and he must do everything in his power to earn it. I just wonder whether YOU think it is worth the time and effort. 2
Madman81 Posted September 10, 2013 Posted September 10, 2013 Rightly or wrongly, he probably feels that you're continuing to "hold it over his head". Please note my use of "rightly or wrongly", because as somebody who's been betrayed while married, I am very much in touch with the awful thing he did to you. As you know, men are pretty simple creatures. We like to know where we stand. We like things to be black and white as much as possible. So if -- and I emphasize "if" -- you and he are basically reconciled, and if you've communicated to him that you've forgiven him, there's probably a part of his brain that thought, when you texted him that comment, "wait a minute -- she's forgiven me, but she's still holding this over my head! Not fair!" Seriously, guys do think like this. If you're a guy, and your girlfriend or wife has verbally told you that she's okay with, say, you going on a fishing trip with your buddies, and leaving her on her own for the weekend. Then, as you're about to leave, or after you've left, she texts and expresses that she feels abandoned or lonely or something similar. A significant part of the guy's response (internally at least) will be "hang on -- you said you were okay with this! Why are you saying that now? Are you trying to make me feel guilty for going away for the weekend? WTF?" Anyway, in my case the attempted reconciliation lasted about a month and a half, so I don't have personal experience with how reconciliation feels when you're a year or more out. Perhaps you and he need a "code word" for situations like the business meeting. He's at the meeting, you're feeling vulnerable and you're triggering because of the mental associations. You text him the code word (for instance, "apple"), he reads that, and immediately texts you back with something that communicates how much he loves you. Yes, you're still indicating that what he did is bothering you in that moment, but he won't feel like you're "holding it over his head". I'll bet you it'll work, and probably help things.
Betterthanthis13 Posted September 10, 2013 Posted September 10, 2013 I want him to know how terribly difficult this is for me. That I can barely do it. But, is that good for reconciliation? To have something like that hanging over your head, wondering if some day you'll come home and your wife has decided she CAN'T do it and is gone? what I'm getting from you, is that you are at your wits end...and in a lot of pain. I am so sorry you are going through all this. It must be exhausting. What BH just wrote is very good, he pointed out some great resources... One thing I do know, is that no matter what, any type of "revenge" is bad for your health. It will only drain you more. You won't ever get a good result from trying to "teach someone a lesson" when they hurt you. It's human instinct to want to do it, to protect yourself, but it's in your best interest to fight that urge and look inward to start healing yourself instead. Easier said than done. You hurt him, he retaliated in spades and hurt you back and it's a mess. I don't know a lot about reconciliation but I do know that you are hurting, and all these raw emotions can't be fixed by fixing your marriage- especially when you aren't getting the result you want right now anyway. You can work on your own happiness as an individual, as hard as that might be to focus on right now- you owe yourself some happiness independent of your marriage... And going about finding happiness from that angle at least a little bit each day might give you some relief, and some strength back to tackle the marriage issues with more clarity and renewed vigor.
Author katielee Posted September 10, 2013 Author Posted September 10, 2013 As well, you're not doing well as a wayward when you focus on his two affairs somehow being worse than your one affair. On a side note, survivinginfidelity.com has an "I can relate" forum and madhatters have their own thread there. It may be worth a read. I just don't think i do that. I actually think what I did was worse, but even that is comparing. I DO think the fact that he actually pursued the 2nd woman gets in my craw. Also, he saw what the first one did to me and then did it again. To me, darn near unforgivable.... with no confession. I am a member of that forum.
Author katielee Posted September 10, 2013 Author Posted September 10, 2013 He needs to know exactly that. That's his burden to carry as a wayward, that his spouse can decide not to decide and that deciding to leave is a real possibility that can happen at any time. It's common for that to be the case for a year plus. If you're still at that point after 3-5 years, it's time to start considering leaving the marriage. He also should have the same latitude. You need to be honest and open with each other. No more conflict avoidance. That's probably a huge part of what got you into this mess in the first place. Unresolved resentment will kill a relationship. You cannot go around it; you must go through it. great advice. thank you. if he wakes up tomorrow and tells me he cant' do this because of what I did I will SO understand... and I understand about conflict avoidance. That's why I Say things... 1
BetrayedH Posted September 10, 2013 Posted September 10, 2013 I just don't think i do that. I actually think what I did was worse, but even that is comparing. I DO think the fact that he actually pursued the 2nd woman gets in my craw. Also, he saw what the first one did to me and then did it again. To me, darn near unforgivable.... with no confession. I am a member of that forum. Without trying to be argumentative, you have emphasized numerous times that he had two affairs. I read that as comparing which wayward was 'worse.' Just something to consider. Where I do empathize with you is in regards to being caught in a second affair after being caught in the first affair. When you see the devastation that an affair brings, go through a false reconciliation, and cheat again, I can't see any reason for your spouse to continue investing in you. Katielee, my advice to you at that point would have been to cut your losses. I can see forgiving one affair when you have a truly remorseful wayward spouse. I can even see forgiving multiple affairs if the wayward is truly remorseful after a single dday. But to go thru a dday and do it to your spouse again - I don't think I would make the attempt.
Author katielee Posted September 10, 2013 Author Posted September 10, 2013 thank you for all the advice. I do NOT want revenge! But I don't think telling him it's still hard is revenge or punishment. I do understand that he thinks he can never do enough though....and I'm wondering if that is indeed the case. If it is, it's not fair to him. I just am not through this enough to make that decision... and Ill just tell him that... Today I said you know, I am exactly where you were 1.5 years out from my affair, when you made some bad choices, so please understand that it will take me a while.... I guess more time... but I am very unhappy.
BetrayedH Posted September 10, 2013 Posted September 10, 2013 great advice. thank you. if he wakes up tomorrow and tells me he cant' do this because of what I did I will SO understand... and I understand about conflict avoidance. That's why I Say things... Good. I think you should continue doing that. It's going to take an immense amount of brutal honesty and an equal amount of patience on both parts to get thru this. He should know how close you are to considering all of this to be a dealbreaker for you. Likewise, he needs to be upfront about his issues. I would guess that instead of confronting you with his inability to forgive, he avoided the conflict and chose to have his own affairs to get even. How is he about avoiding conflict now?
Author katielee Posted September 10, 2013 Author Posted September 10, 2013 Where I do empathize with you is in regards to being caught in a second affair after being caught in the first affair. When you see the devastation that an affair brings, go through a false reconciliation, and cheat again, I can't see any reason for your spouse to continue investing in you. Katielee, my advice to you at that point would have been to cut your losses. I can see forgiving one affair when you have a truly remorseful wayward spouse. I can even see forgiving multiple affairs if the wayward is truly remorseful after a single dday. But to go thru a dday and do it to your spouse again - I don't think I would make the attempt. crying as I read this BetrayedH.....
BetrayedH Posted September 10, 2013 Posted September 10, 2013 thank you for all the advice. I do NOT want revenge! But I don't think telling him it's still hard is revenge or punishment. I do understand that he thinks he can never do enough though....and I'm wondering if that is indeed the case. If it is, it's not fair to him. I just am not through this enough to make that decision... and Ill just tell him that... Today I said you know, I am exactly where you were 1.5 years out from my affair, when you made some bad choices, so please understand that it will take me a while.... I guess more time... but I am very unhappy. This sounds pretty healthy to me. I do think that reconciliation takes two things: (1) a truly remorseful wayward spouse and (2) a truly forgiving betrayed spouse. You need to freely communicate what you need for him to demonstrate true remorse but then yes, you also need to decide if you have it in you to forgive. That doesn't mean you would never think of the affair or trigger again but it does mean that you would need to eventually "get over it" to a significant extent (even if he can never tell you to do so). I think it takes years to figure out if you have both a truly remorseful wayward spouse and a truly forgiving betrayed spouse. And in your case, you BOTH have to go thru this exercise. At any point, either of you could call it quits. It's such an amazingly tall order. But you can only do your part. Do everything you can to determine if he's truly remorseful and if you can forgive. And in the meantime, keep doing your work as a wayward.
BetrayedH Posted September 10, 2013 Posted September 10, 2013 crying as I read this BetrayedH..... I'm sorry. I feel for you. But this isn't my decision. It's yours. Your love for your husband is a big factor. And if he is NOW truly remorseful for both of his affairs, the reality is that you face a situation similar to that of most BSs: Can I trust him now? Truly, that is a question that probably only you can answer and it'll probably take a long time to know. I honestly don't mean to discourage you. So much of this is dependent upon him and his remorse. 1
Betterthanthis13 Posted September 10, 2013 Posted September 10, 2013 thank you for all the advice. I do NOT want revenge! But I don't think telling him it's still hard is revenge or punishment. I do understand that he thinks he can never do enough though....and I'm wondering if that is indeed the case. If it is, it's not fair to him. I just am not through this enough to make that decision... and Ill just tell him that... Today I said you know, I am exactly where you were 1.5 years out from my affair, when you made some bad choices, so please understand that it will take me a while.... I guess more time... but I am very unhappy. I'm sorry, I didn't mean for that to sound like an accusation, I don't think you are out for actual revenge, or to punish him. It sounds like you want things to be right again, and they aren't, they just aren't, it's got to be so incredibly frustrating. I truly hope you both are able to come to a place of peace and understanding with each other.
harrybrown Posted September 10, 2013 Posted September 10, 2013 Has he ever recovered from your affair? He is trying to cover up his pain in a very devastating way. Did he have these affairs to cope with his pain? Did he feel like number 2 and this was the way to feel better? I do not think this is the way to recover. He knows the deep pain of the affair. How could he inflict this horrible pain on you, when he knew how deep it hurt? So you burn down the house and he drowns the remains? I am sorry you both are going thru this, but the scars keep getting ripped open.
Author katielee Posted September 10, 2013 Author Posted September 10, 2013 Has he ever recovered from your affair? He is trying to cover up his pain in a very devastating way. Did he have these affairs to cope with his pain? Did he feel like number 2 and this was the way to feel better? I do not think this is the way to recover. He knows the deep pain of the affair. How could he inflict this horrible pain on you, when he knew how deep it hurt? So you burn down the house and he drowns the remains? I am sorry you both are going thru this, but the scars keep getting ripped open. Harry, I don't know if he has recovered. He says he has forgiven me. But I dont think that was until after his affairs. I suppose he used the affairs to self-medicate, yes.
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