I only approach women I find absolutely attractive.

[serial muse]

No it's not just taller vs shorter. Some girls are completely flat, some girls are extremely curvy.

 

I think there is a bigger deviation when it comes to men in general.

 

Nope. Sorry, Castle, but women don't get into the Maxim Hot 100 unless they're HOT. Curviness, baldness, height, breast size - those are the negotiables for both genders. See my lists, above. What matters is hotness. For men and women.

 

Newsflash: Everyone's shallow to some extent. Men as a group are not better than women, and women are not better than men. Go back to that thread and personally I don't see any more variety in men's tastes than in women's.

[MrCastle]

Nope. Sorry, Castle, but women don't get into the Maxim Hot 100 unless they're HOT. Curviness, baldness, height, breast size - those are the negotiables for both genders. See my lists, above. What matters is hotness. For men and women. [/Quote]

 

Yes but they all make it in because men find a wider variety of things hot. I promise you if women had a hot 100 men the differences would not be as great.

 

Newsflash: Everyone's shallow to some extent. Men as a group are not better than women, and women are not better than men.

 

I already said both sexes are equally shallow.

[MrCastle]

Let me put it this way. I'm young, in pretty good shape, dress well, have been told I have a very cute face. I'm short, but clean up with women anyway.

 

Because I go after them.

 

One of them in fact, told me flat out "sorry, I don't date shorter guys."

 

Two weeks later I considered changing my number because she would not stop contacting me. She grew to know me and her attraction for me grew.

 

If women did the approaching, she wouldn't have given me that opportunity to get to know me. She would give me a look, say "he's short" and move on.

 

I don't think it's totally unrealistic to say that if women did the approaches as opposed to men, my dating life, at least in terms of quantity, would see some sort of drop off.

 

This is not insecurity on my part as I've said, I do well, and don't worry about my appearance in the real world (wouldn't be able to land dates if I did) -- but it's reality. If I had to sit around and wait for women to approach, I probably would hate my dating life.

[serial muse]

Yes but they all make it in because men find a wider variety of things hot. I promise you if women had a hot 100 men the differences would not be as great.

 

Seriously, I am not seeing it. Give me some examples of specific people that you think display diversity in men's interests, and I'm 100% certain I could come right back with similar examples for women. Some of them are in that thread. You yourself mentioned height and baldness, and yet I already provided examples of that!

 

I will add if you're talking about on-the-street approaching, you simply can't use the Maxim Hot 100 as your example of diversity in men's tastes. That really undermines your argument.

 

Now, IRL, there's no question that men do the greater share of approaching, and I have said in many other threads that I don't envy guys that particular social stereotype. But then, you are self-selecting in that approaching too...and I would bet cold hard cash that the people you're approaching aren't so diverse as you think.

[MrCastle]

Seriously, I am not seeing it. Give me some examples of specific people that you think display diversity in men's interests, and I'm 100% certain I could come right back with similar examples for women. Some of them are in that thread. You yourself mentioned height and baldness, and yet I already provided examples of that!

 

I will add if you're talking about on-the-street approaching, you simply can't use the Maxim Hot 100 as your example of diversity in men's tastes. That really undermines your argument.

 

Now, IRL, there's no question that men do the greater share of approaching, and I have said in many other threads that I don't envy guys that particular social stereotype. But then, you are self-selecting in that approaching too...and I would bet cold hard cash that the people you're approaching aren't so diverse as you think.

 

Just from the way I've seen men and women talk about physical attraction -- it's different.

 

A friend of mine will come to me and say "man I just got this spinner's number. So hot man. I can't wait to toss her around like a rag doll."

 

And another friend will come in and say "Dude I just met this girl with a killer ass. So thick. She's gorgeous."

 

Women are not gonna run to their girlfriends and say "oh Lisa I just ran into this hunky guy. He's two inches shorter than me and soo dreamy." And her friend says "Mmm I love when they're short."

 

That never happens. And you know it.

 

So, again, back to my original point...

 

There are men who complain about having to do the approaches, but to me, the opposite is even worse.

 

Like I always say, I'm not out there competing with fellow short, slender, broke college boys. I'm competing (and beating) the jock, the buff guy, the young dude making tons of money -- because 1.) I'm not scared to approach, so I automatically have a leg up on any man who is, regardless of what he looks like, 2.) the women get to know me and grow in attraction.

 

If women did the approaches, both of those things would be eliminated.

 

These men out here that complain about their dating life because they're not X enough are really just making excuses. With the current social set up of the man approaching the woman, almost any normal guy can land a girl. But if it was the reverse, I don't think the same would be true.

 

I'm a photographer, and through my networking, a good majority of the females I interact with are models or looking to model. We're talking objectively beautiful women. Knockouts. They date me, so yeah, obviously they find me attractive, but if I'm being honest with myself -- if we lived in a world where they approached men, am I gonna be at the top of their approach list? Realistically speaking? I don't think so.

Edited September 10, 2013 by MrCastle

[dichotomy]

I prefer the set up the way it is. I only approach women I find absolutely attractive. That's pretty good considering that any girl who accepts my invitation is someone I find totally hot. Every girl who says yes is a girl I really wanted.

 

Approaching gives men with balls an advantage. While other guys are too shy (and this includes all kinds of men -- rich men, tall men, model looking men, etc) to approach pretty women, the guy with balls has the upper hand.

 

You can only get a shot if you toss your hat in the ring. Every approach I make is me throwing my hat in the ring to let the girl know I'm available and if she knows what's good for her, she'll pick me.

 

She can't do that if I don't approach.

 

This set up is much much better. If women did the approaches, most men would be excluded, and more than likely more bitter than they are now.

 

Define attractive, hot, etc..?

 

For me - my views are not fixed on this anymore, and more than a few strong women have approached me over my life -and challenged my long held views on what is sexy and attractive. Nothing like a strong woman to change your view on a few things and open you eyes...

[MrCastle]

Define attractive, hot, etc..?

 

For me - my views are not fixed on this anymore, and more than a few strong women have approached me over my life -and challenged my long held views on what is sexy and attractive. Nothing like a strong woman to change your view on a few things and open you eyes...

 

It's really a personal, hard to explain thing. I can't explain what I'm attracted to. Physically, it's a wide array of types. Differences in hair colors, ethnicities, ages, body types, etc.

 

All I can say physically is that I need a good looking face for anything to happen but even that is hard to explain because none of the women I find attractive look alike.

 

Hollywood example -- I think Heidi Klum and Jessica Alba have perfect faces. Neither of them look similar at all. They just have a face I find attractive.

 

As long as I'm attracted to the face, anything is possible

[RedRobin]

If it helps, you should know Castle, that I don't accept cold approaches anymore.

 

In the past, the ones who cold approached me turned out to be boring or not very nice. Not someone I'd want a relationship with no matter how 'hot' they thought *I* was.

 

I get the impression these guys can't get a girl in their social circle to like or trust them, so they have to throw out this big cast net.

 

That, or they are just looking for hookups... which is totally obvious.

 

Your method likely works for girls who thrive on external validation rather than using her own filters.

 

Tell us the length of your longest relationship??? If you are defining 'success' as just the number of women you manage to have sex with, then all I'd say is that you are good at picking your target market... which is girls who will have early sex with you without getting to know you.

 

The fact that you like many body types just means you have more potential targets. That's a good thing!

 

... but please don't translate your tastes to all men or all women.

[RedRobin]

If women did the approaches, both of those things would be eliminated.

 

Women DO the approaches in many ways. One of which is putting themselves in your social circle or close enough for you to make the next move.

 

The guys who haven't learned how to read these cues miss out. You probably have just learned (perhaps subconsciously) which ones might be receptive to your approaches. That's great!

 

This is why I recommend dancing classes, public speaking, improv, or acting classes to help anyone who is suffering in reading body language or get nervous in social situations.

 

That is the #1 thing both genders could get help with. After that, have something interesting to say when you finally do get their attention.

 

These are skills that help people in all spheres of life...

[PJKino]

 

I get the impression these guys can't get a girl in their social circle to like or trust them, so they have to throw out this big cast net.

 

getting to know you.

 

.

 

Thats a huge assumption..some of us just dont have single women in our social circle..all my friends are now married with kids as are there friends so i dont have any single women in my circle

[MrCastle]

Hi Robin. Gonna try to answer this bit by bit:

 

If it helps, you should know Castle, that I don't accept cold approaches anymore.[/Quote]

 

I have said quite a few times on here that I don't do cold approaches. Low success rate and overall it just seems most women are not open to that kind of interaction. What I do is something I've called a "warm approach" -- in class, on line at the supermarket, etc, anywhere I'm in a social setting with a woman I find attractive, I find a way to spark up a conversation. Obviously this is easiest in class.

 

Anyway, ice breakers are the toughest part, once you break it, you're in. We exchange numbers and start to communicate through text outside of school. Before you know it, I am asking them to hang out.

 

Pretty much organic social connections, as most people find their friends and partners.

 

This was not intended to be a thread. My original post was a post I made in a thread about what the world would be like if women were the ones socially expected to approach. I posted my opinion -- that the men complaining would be complaining even more because they'd be waiting for an approach that would never come, or at least not come as often as they'd like. The benefit of being a man in today's society is that you can freely approach any woman you find attractive, at any time. To me that is better than what women get, which is men they may or may not like approaching them. You can bet that any girl I have the courage to break the ice with is a woman I find significantly attractive. What she actually looks like physically is moot. I'm attracted to her, I want her.

 

In the past, the ones who cold approached me turned out to be boring or not very nice. Not someone I'd want a relationship with no matter how 'hot' they thought *I* was.

 

I get the impression these guys can't get a girl in their social circle to like or trust them, so they have to throw out this big cast net.[/Quote]

 

Yeah. You see this a lot in the pua community. Guys starting from scratch who have no girls in their circle at all decide to "sarge" -- aka go out and approach random women on the street with the sole purpose of getting their numbers. Like I said, low success rate, and judging by what women on here and in person tell me -- they don't really go for that. They like what I do better. Organic approaches. It certainly takes guts to cold approach and they (and myself) give the man credit for trying, but still -- it typically doesn't materialize.

 

Your method likely works for girls who thrive on external validation rather than using her own filters.[/Quote]

 

Not sure what this is supposed to mean but I assume you are writing this with the belief that I approach random women on the street, which I have clarified above.

 

Tell us the length of your longest relationship???[/Quote]

 

Relationship as in bf/gf exclusivity? About a month. When I was a young teen.

 

If you are defining 'success' as just the number of women you manage to have sex with, then all I'd say is that you are good at picking your target market... which is girls who will have early sex with you without getting to know you.[/Quote]

 

I don't like the phrasing of this. It makes it seem like I don't care for the women as individuals and am just trying to get my numbers up so to speak. I define success as consistency in terms of both quantity and quality. Am I attracting similar kinds of women in terms of quality (personality + looks) every time I try? Or did I just get lucky once or twice and aside from that, no prospects at all?

 

The fact that you like many body types just means you have more potential targets. That's a good thing!

 

... but please don't translate your tastes to all men or all women.

 

I don't think I've "translated my tastes" to anybody. I've said pretty clearly earlier in this thread that what I find personally attractive in women is moot. I am merely telling men out there who think somehow this world would be better for them if women approached that it really can't get better than it is now. If you see a woman you find personally attractive, go talk to her. Doesn't get sweeter than that.

 

Women DO the approaches in many ways. One of which is putting themselves in your social circle or close enough for you to make the next move.

 

The guys who haven't learned how to read these cues miss out. You probably have just learned (perhaps subconsciously) which ones might be receptive to your approaches. That's great!

 

This is why I recommend dancing classes, public speaking, improv, or acting classes to help anyone who is suffering in reading body language or get nervous in social situations.

 

That is the #1 thing both genders could get help with. After that, have something interesting to say when you finally do get their attention.

 

These are skills that help people in all spheres of life...

 

Agree with all of this.

[RedRobin]

Castle, I just learned in this thread that you do photography. Which means you already have a leg up in the 'reading body language' department.

 

From the woman's viewpoint... and one who has approached men I find attractive in many ways... some subtle, some not so subtle.... I'm going to still argue that women aren't as passive in this respect as is being projected here.

 

I'd also argue that both men and women would do well to be adaptive. To flex their style for the target of their affection. When the situations suits, be more receptive and stand back. When the situation suits, be bold and outgoing.

 

Both of which bounded by their personality and interests.

 

I'm just not a fan of these gender based rules, is all.

[MrCastle]

Castle, I just learned in this thread that you do photography. Which means you already have a leg up in the 'reading body language' department. [/Quote]

 

I'm really good at picking up on body language, yes. Does it help in social interactions, particularly those involving women? Absolutely. But all men can learn to be better at reading body language and a lot of it comes with experience. They should be out there talking to women.

 

I'm not saying walk up to random women on the street and try to get their number in 10 minutes or less, but that pretty girl in class or at your job -- stop freezing up around her and start making moves. Life is too short to be nervous over this kind of stuff. I never want to look back on my life wondering what if, wondering what could have been. I take action immediately so I know right away where I stand. More men should be doing this. More men should have that kind of confidence. It would do a lot for their dating lives.

 

From the woman's viewpoint... and one who has approached men I find attractive in many ways... some subtle, some not so subtle.... I'm going to still argue that women aren't as passive in this respect as is being projected here.[/Quote]

 

Well we're speaking in general terms here but I think it's pretty safe to say more women wait for the man to approach, for a variety of reasons. It's socially expected, maybe they're shy, maybe they just prefer things that way, etc. Women that actively and aggressively pursue the man are few and far between.

 

I'd also argue that both men and women would do well to be adaptive. To flex their style for the target of their affection. When the situations suits, be more receptive and stand back. When the situation suits, be bold and outgoing.

 

Both of which bounded by their personality and interests.[/Quote]

 

Agree, but

 

I'm just not a fan of these gender based rules, is all.

 

Hey, few are. But they are still in place and have been for generations. There is a biological component behind it. Men and women are different. We interpret things differently, we use different parts of our brains, etc etc. Men will always be expected to do the bulk of the approaching and asking of dates. It's just the way it is. No man should sit back and expect women to just come up to him and ask him out.

[RedRobin]

Castle, we'll have to agree to disagree.

 

Most of the guys you are talking about don't see women as people. If they did, they'd be more relaxed.

 

I'd argue they need to talk to everyone. Young, old, men, women... you name it. Not just the pretty ones.

 

It's basic social skills that are lacking here that have nothing to do with gender.

 

IME, The biology argument is an excuse used by people to justify their own particular interests.

 

What *I* observe is that people's behavior changes in direct proportion to the cultural biases and rewards.

 

Remove the consequences or change the rewards for any particular action, and, not surprisingly, behavior changes accordingly.

 

I'd rather people just state their personal interests and leave the gender crap out of it. Would make things a whole lot easier.

 

You like to pursue, then go for it. Others would rather have the other person 'pursue', then so be it. Lots of pots, lots of lids. Hopefully they can find each other and be complete

 

Edited: oh, and I don't believe any woman should just sit around and wait for a guy to ask her out. Women should be going after the men they are attracted to. It's pretty freeing to me. Knowing I can pursue or not, depending on my mood and the particular qualities of the man I'm interested in.

Edited September 13, 2013 by RedRobin

[PJKino]

Castle, we'll have to agree to disagree.

 

Most of the guys you are talking about don't see women as people. If they did, they'd be more relaxed.

 

 

It's basic social skills that are lacking here that have nothing to do with gender.

 

.

.

 

I agree on the social skills part not youre first point..I do see women as people im just extremely shy and dont want to come off as awkward or creepy when i approach and so i overanalyze what to do or say and end up not approaching..

 

Has nothing to do with not seeing women as people

[MrCastle]

Castle, we'll have to agree to disagree.

 

Most of the guys you are talking about don't see women as people. If they did, they'd be more relaxed.

 

I'd argue they need to talk to everyone. Young, old, men, women... you name it. Not just the pretty ones.

 

It's basic social skills that are lacking here that have nothing to do with gender.

 

IME, The biology argument is an excuse used by people to justify their own particular interests.

 

What *I* observe is that people's behavior changes in direct proportion to the cultural biases and rewards.

 

Remove the consequences or change the rewards for any particular action, and, not surprisingly, behavior changes accordingly.

 

I'd rather people just state their personal interests and leave the gender crap out of it. Would make things a whole lot easier.

 

You like to pursue, then go for it. Others would rather have the other person 'pursue', then so be it. Lots of pots, lots of lids. Hopefully they can find each other and be complete

 

Edited: oh, and I don't believe any woman should just sit around and wait for a guy to ask her out. Women should be going after the men they are attracted to. It's pretty freeing to me. Knowing I can pursue or not, depending on my mood and the particular qualities of the man I'm interested in.

 

I admire your views on this, and some of them I agree with. But you can't change society and social conditioning. At least not at the speed you'd want. That kind of thing takes decades, if not more.

 

The way Westernized society is currently set up as it pertains to dating is the man approaches the woman, the man asks her out, the man pays for the date.

 

It has been socially engrained in us that this is the norm. Both men and women adhere to those principles.

 

Doesn't mean if the woman approaches first or pays for the first date that it's wrong, it's just a deviation from what's considered the norm.

 

A man (neither person for that matter, but especially for men because women will get men approaching them regardless) should not wait around for a girl to approach him. If he wants her, he should make the first move. Not because he's a man and that's what men are programmed to do (although you could argue that) but because society is telling him, these are the dating rules.

 

If the roles were reversed socially and women were expected to approach, and there were women out there that didn't - I would be telling them the same thing. Society is expecting you to do X, you can certainly do Y, but it will not make your life any easier.

 

And believe me, I am a rebel in my own right and believe rules are made to be broken, buck the trend, be your own person and all of that -- but if success is what you're looking for, it would be better to follow society's trends than to do the opposite.

 

In our society, the man approaches the woman. I think men would be better off success wise, if they lived up to that.

[RedRobin]

I admire your views on this, and some of them I agree with. But you can't change society and social conditioning.

 

They are already changing.

 

Enough for you to create a thread defending the status quo and the good 'ol days.

 

[ltjg45]

They are already changing.

 

Enough for you to create a thread defending the status quo and the good 'ol days.

 

 

You can't argue on that McCastle. RR got you beat on that one.

[MrCastle]

They are already changing.

 

Enough for you to create a thread defending the status quo and the good 'ol days.

 

 

*Third time I make this post*

 

If you read the first page, you will see that I did not make this thread. Moderation did.

 

My initial post was in a different thread.

 

That particular thread's topic was "if women did the approaching"

 

A few men who were unsuccessful in dating chimed in about how much easier it would be if women did it and men didn't have to be the ones to do the approaching.

 

I chimed in about how that's a flimsy argument. Who's to say that if women did the approaching that those men would get approached?

 

They're unsuccessful now, but suddenly if women were doing the approaches, they'd have better success?

 

It was yet another way to deflect blame onto others and not take responsibility for their own dating successes and failures.

 

So, my stance was, it doesn't get better than it is now, for men.

 

If you have confidence and little else, you can go far in this game, because there are two kinds of men -- doers, and watchers.

 

Doers, have the guts to talk to that girl, to ask her out, despite whatever physical or other shortcomings they have. The watchers, look on as these men do those things.

 

It ultimately comes down to, are you confident enough to take that risk? To go for the woman?

 

If women did more approaches, hey, that would be great -- but that doesn't automatically mean that men who are struggling now would all of a sudden flourish.

[RedRobin]

If you have confidence and little else, you can go far in this game, because there are two kinds of men people -- doers, and watchers.

 

Doers, have the guts to talk to that girl person, to ask her him/her out, despite whatever physical or other shortcomings they have. The watchers, look on as these men people do those things.

 

It ultimately comes down to, are you confident enough to take that risk? To go for the woman person?

 

If women did more approaches, hey, that would be great -- but that doesn't automatically mean that men who are struggling now would all of a sudden flourish.

 

I'm pretty sure I know what your idea of 'flourish' is. Scoring lots 'o action with hot babes or whatever.

 

My idea of 'flourish' is a healthy, nurturing relationship. And for that, I seriously see no difference in whether the woman initiated or he initiated. Really just depends on the dynamics of the two... and for that, I also see no reason why I have to sit on the sidelines batting my eyelashes hoping the guy I'm interested in will notice me.

 

We're not all cookie cut-outs.

[MrCastle]

I'm pretty sure I know what your idea of 'flourish' is. Scoring lots 'o action with hot babes or whatever.

 

My idea of 'flourish' is a healthy, nurturing relationship. And for that, I seriously see no difference in whether the woman initiated or he initiated. Really just depends on the dynamics of the two... and for that, I also see no reason why I have to sit on the sidelines batting my eyelashes hoping the guy I'm interested in will notice me.

 

We're not all cookie cut-outs.

 

And what does any of that have to do with frustrated men blaming women for not approaching them as the reason they are unsuccessful?

[happydate]

Looking at Mr. Castle's credentials that he's from New York and works as a photographer. That in itself pretty sums up I think who Mr. Castle is. Charming, confidence and goes for what he wants. I also work in a digital media business and mingle with New York and Los Angeles based photographers in world media sanctioned events and they know women really well. However, I disagree that all photographers are like Mr. Castle. In fact, I know a few and some working for Corbus couldn't even land girls and doing cold pathetic approaches. Just because a photographer has people skills does not mean that he can land any good looking ladies or models. It all depends upon his own psychology.

 

The main reason why most men are so afraid to ask for a date is first they are way way too nice. It's like they are conditioned to behave like some 18th century English gentleman courting ladies. Ahhh; hold on a sec. Let's look at the watch and it said 2013. Secondly, it's the fear of rejection. Now where's that fear coming from and what triggers it?

A friend of mine said it once that when you squeeze an orange hard enough, out come orange juice. When external conditions squeeze nice guys hard enough, they back down. So they expect girls to step up to the plate and date them. What then is the guarantee that what triggered their fear wouldn't surface during the dating relationship? That fear is internal and is related to the person's upbringing! Most people recommend joining some kind of toast masters, improv, acting etc... But look at some men who are actors, toast masters and public speakers and they too have difficulty courting women. Trying to fix the outer lying condition like fear of public speaking, or fear asking for a date is not a solution.

 

The solution is to fix the inner fear, the cause that was triggered by an outer condition. In this case, asking a good looking girl out. What causes that fear and how are you going to address it. Find the fear and addressing the inner fear is a MORE effective solution rather than trying to tame it. Which is why people like Mr. Castle has the upper hand in terms of dating women. Because most of the time, they are the ones who approach them when no other men would and that's the advantage I found eventhough I'm not born to be on the GQ magazine.

 

Personally, I have met men like even one on the wheelchair who married gorgeous good looking wholesome women and ask them the question. How you guys did it?!?

 

They always told me the same thing. Curb your inner fear of dating women so your heart doesn't thump 100 miles/hr and then, you can have any women you want.

Edited September 13, 2013 by happydate

[RedRobin]

And what does any of that have to do with frustrated men blaming women for not approaching them as the reason they are unsuccessful?

 

I don't think they all were. I think they are frustrated in general and believe, rightly so, that if more women initiated they'd have an easier time.

 

I don't necessarily believe they'd be 'successful' no matter who initiates because they'd still have to know how to keep said woman.

 

... which goes back to the point we both agreed on, and that is learning how to build social skills and read cues.

 

The saddest thing is... I'm betting dollars to donuts that most of these guys HAVE been approached by women. It is either by women they don't want (eh, I feel their pain) or they can't read the cues properly from those they DO want.

[RedRobin]

Personally, I have met men like even one on the wheelchair who married gorgeous good looking wholesome women and ask them the question. How you guys did it?!?

 

They always told me the same thing. Curb your inner fear of dating women so your heart doesn't thump 100 miles/hr and then, you can have any women you want.

 

No, they can't.

 

You still have to be worth a shyte underneath all that flash... not a bold piece of turd covered in frosting.... Walking around with some piece of meat they call a 'woman' just to prop up their ego.

[MrCastle]

I don't think they all were. I think they are frustrated in general and believe, rightly so, that if more women initiated they'd have an easier time.

 

I don't necessarily believe they'd be 'successful' no matter who initiates because they'd still have to know how to keep said woman.

 

... which goes back to the point we both agreed on, and that is learning how to build social skills and read cues.

 

The saddest thing is... I'm betting dollars to donuts that most of these guys HAVE been approached by women. It is either by women they don't want (eh, I feel their pain) or they can't read the cues properly from those they DO want.

 

I don't see where you get that though. There is nothing to back that up.

 

Why would they suddenly have women asking them out?

 

If they have shortcomings, physical or personality based -- women are going to overlook them and approach other men. Remember we are talking about women approaching men they don't know, hence they are only going by looks or vibes the men give off. If the men exude a negative vibe, or shy, anti-social vibe, why would women approach?

 

I don't think they would see success no matter who was in charge of approaching. They have personal hang ups they need to take care of.

 

Problem won't go away if women approached, because they would be approaching other men.