When Pastors Lie

[Kaiten]

I have really been thinking about this. When is it ok for pastors to lie and deceive? Is this ever ok? Does "the anointing" they have make this ok?

 

If you havent read my story, this is what happened.

 

Ever since then I have been extremely skeptical about church. I have been going to that church for over 5 years (which is a big deal for a 21 year old) and only because I wanted to be obedient.

 

Recently a megachurch pastor wrote a book called Deep and Wide. Apparently the book is about making a church that un-churched people will love. Several leaders in my church (now former church, because I don't go to church anymore) have read that book.

 

In the book, the author talks about how church doesn't have to be fair because Jesus wasn't fair. The grounds for his claim is in the fact that Jesus healed people here and there as opposed to every single person, and that he chose 12 disciples instead of just anybody.

 

A church leader told me that I wouldnt be picked for anything because it had nothing to with whether or not I was good at it or passionate about it. It was totally up to the Pastor's wife what I was allowed to lead in church. Church didn't have to be fair because a "Successful Pastor" wrote a book saying that church didn't have to be fair. (I hate it when people in a church get ahold of a book and then they try to make everything fit the context of that one book...until they get another book...then the cycle repeats)

 

I found it funny that they claimed passion or credentials didn't matter. Because that was ALL that mattered when choosing a pastor for youth or a worship music pastor. Credentials credentials credentials.

 

All my church life i was told how much "anointing" and prayer it took to be a pastor. So when my Pastors wife manipulated and deceived naturally I had questions. (She doesn't know that I know)

 

I have been scolded several times in church for asking innocent and sensible questions, so i decided it was best not to tell anyone what happened to my friend and I. At least for now.

 

But i already know what they are going to say. "Pastors are humans too. They arent perfect." Thats true. And then I realized that I am an imperfect human too. And thats when I realized that it may very well be possible that I am just as smart as any Pastor could be. If Pastors arent above lying...and all the other things they get media coverage for, then why exactly do I need them? I believe that I am skilled and passionate enough to lead even though I am young.

 

Dont get me wrong. I believe that I need mentorship...I just want mentorship that is going to give me the time of day, and be straight up with me. I am done with this hierarchy of people that church creates.

 

Pastors

Youth Pastors

Other Clergy

Married couples with kids

Married couples

Kids

Single young adults

 

Steve Jobs once said that "Everything around you that you call life was created by people who are no smarter than you."

 

I happen to believe that. So when Pastors lie, is there ever a good reason? Is this ever excusable? Do people really even need church the institution? Are Pastors and other Clergy really "anointed" above others?

 

Or are we all equals, and all capable of greatness?

[M30USA]

When pastors lie, it's usually because they are financially beholden to a congregation and must tell them what they want to hear in order to keep receiving their money. This is especially true with regard to issues of doctrine/theology.

[carhill]

The message is your faith. The messenger is human, and fallible.

 

Trust me, with all the scandals that went on in the Catholic Church with priests and altar boys back when I was young, I know all about message and messenger.

 

IMO, stick to the faith and message which speaks to you and the pastor can reconcile his/her own soul and conscience with his/her deity.

[M30USA]

The message is your faith. The messenger is human, and fallible.

 

Trust me, with all the scandals that went on in the Catholic Church with priests and altar boys back when I was young, I know all about message and messenger.

 

IMO, stick to the faith and message which speaks to you and the pastor can reconcile his/her own soul and conscience with his/her deity.

 

Don't stick to a denomination. Stick to the Bible. The previous poster is correct that humans and even pastors are fallible. That's exactly why the Bible must be supreme.

[KathyM]

I would suggest finding another church. All of the churches I have known or belonged to very much welcomed the passionate service of young people. One of my sons had a leadership role in his youth ministry as a teenager, and he is now the music worship leader of his current church as a young adult in his 20s. My nephews also have leadership roles in their church, which is a wonderful megachurch. I'm sure your talents would be appreciated elsewhere, if this one church is not working out for you. But I do want to stress that the church's role, and every ministry in it, is to teach fellow Christians and interested visitors about God's will and God's love as provided in His word, to bring glory to God and worship God, and to provide fellowship to its members. It's not about bringing glory to ourselves or having a competitive, performance orientation. It is about worship and bringing glory to God. If the church leaders thought your desire to lead was all about feeding your ego or some power trip rather than your desire to serve, I can see that the leaders may have felt someone else whose desire was to serve God was a better fit. I'm not trying to question your motives, but only to suggest why they may have interpreted giving you a leadership role may not be in keeping with the church's role as giving glory/worship to God, rather than ourselves. I was part of the music ministry at my church for several years, and I always had to be conscious of keeping my ego in check and understanding why we are doing what we are doing (to glorify God). We are not there to glorify ourselves, and we were sometimes reminded by the music ministry leader that we need to check our egos at the door before we come to practice or perform. He was not going to tolerate any ego issues from anyone in the group. The way your situation was handled, however, was not right if it involved misleading you or others, and I can see why you would want to change churches under the circumstances.

Edited September 6, 2013 by KathyM

[M30USA]

I have really been thinking about this. When is it ok for pastors to lie and deceive? Is this ever ok? Does "the anointing" they have make this ok?

 

If you havent read my story, this is what happened.

 

Ever since then I have been extremely skeptical about church. I have been going to that church for over 5 years (which is a big deal for a 21 year old) and only because I wanted to be obedient.

 

Recently a megachurch pastor wrote a book called Deep and Wide. Apparently the book is about making a church that un-churched people will love. Several leaders in my church (now former church, because I don't go to church anymore) have read that book.

 

In the book, the author talks about how church doesn't have to be fair because Jesus wasn't fair. The grounds for his claim is in the fact that Jesus healed people here and there as opposed to every single person, and that he chose 12 disciples instead of just anybody.

 

A church leader told me that I wouldnt be picked for anything because it had nothing to with whether or not I was good at it or passionate about it. It was totally up to the Pastor's wife what I was allowed to lead in church. Church didn't have to be fair because a "Successful Pastor" wrote a book saying that church didn't have to be fair. (I hate it when people in a church get ahold of a book and then they try to make everything fit the context of that one book...until they get another book...then the cycle repeats)

 

I found it funny that they claimed passion or credentials didn't matter. Because that was ALL that mattered when choosing a pastor for youth or a worship music pastor. Credentials credentials credentials.

 

All my church life i was told how much "anointing" and prayer it took to be a pastor. So when my Pastors wife manipulated and deceived naturally I had questions. (She doesn't know that I know)

 

I have been scolded several times in church for asking innocent and sensible questions, so i decided it was best not to tell anyone what happened to my friend and I. At least for now.

 

But i already know what they are going to say. "Pastors are humans too. They arent perfect." Thats true. And then I realized that I am an imperfect human too. And thats when I realized that it may very well be possible that I am just as smart as any Pastor could be. If Pastors arent above lying...and all the other things they get media coverage for, then why exactly do I need them? I believe that I am skilled and passionate enough to lead even though I am young.

 

Dont get me wrong. I believe that I need mentorship...I just want mentorship that is going to give me the time of day, and be straight up with me. I am done with this hierarchy of people that church creates.

 

Pastors

Youth Pastors

Other Clergy

Married couples with kids

Married couples

Kids

Single young adults

 

Steve Jobs once said that "Everything around you that you call life was created by people who are no smarter than you."

 

I happen to believe that. So when Pastors lie, is there ever a good reason? Is this ever excusable? Do people really even need church the institution? Are Pastors and other Clergy really "anointed" above others?

 

Or are we all equals, and all capable of greatness?

 

Kaiten,

 

I've said this numerous times on LS but I'll say it again for you here because it's relevant:

 

Many Christians do not believe the Bible and rank it in the same area as mythology (but with a "good message"). Such people will even tell you they DO believe the Bible. And they aren't even lying in their minds. But what they "believe" are merely the basic concept like reaping and sowing, doing good into others, etc. Anything more than that, especially historical issues and topics which at all challenge their current lifestyle, are completely rejected. Yet they still walk into a church every Sunday. You will soon learn to completely disregard the title "Christian" and, if you want to know a person's true beliefs, start talking SPECIFICALLY about who Jesus is and what his life means to them. Your answers will vary wildly. But the true Christians will give you the sense that Jesus is the ultimate end, in himself, rather than a means to an end (like wealth or health).

 

I suspect we are currently in what Jesus referred to as "the great falling away". We use the name of Christ but in virtually all areas we reject his true words and meaning.

Edited September 6, 2013 by M30USA

[Kaiten]

KathyM, I understand where you are coming from. No one wants the person who is all about themself on a stage. I linked my story in the original post...

 

The gist of it is that i never really wanted to lead, I just saw a need for improvement and I recognized that I was the most passionate one about it. I didn't care who led what as long as the work got done.

 

Strangely enough, the Pastor's wife felt it was alright to lie to me and others and sabotaged great work. Why?

[Kaiten]

IMO it is so easy to suggest going to a different church if one does you wrong. And of course I can see how that would make sense. I was at the church I was at for 5 years. I poured my heart and soul into it and made sacrifices and took church serious.

 

If pastors are indeed human (and they are) then the very same thing, or worse, could easily happen again. Is this not true?

 

In my last year of church I was convinced that i really didnt need church. But now that I have gained perspective I am convinced that no one really needs church. They might need the fellowship church gives but why pay to have a building and fund a pastor's life, just so we can meet in a building?

[Kaiten]

M30USA -

 

I believe your suspicion is correct. This does indeed look like a great falling away. But why wouldn't it be? Look at the leadership of the church...or lack thereof, really.

[pie2]

But now that I have gained perspective I am convinced that no one really needs church. They might need the fellowship church gives but why pay to have a building and fund a pastor's life, just so we can meet in a building?

 

The church isn't the building...it's the people. So going to a specific building isn't the point. We're called to build relationships with others. And all around America, and throughout the world, people are participating in Christian churches, and all churches have problems. But we shouldn't ignore this instruction, just because at times it seems difficult or pointless.

 

OP, I would pray about whether or not the most wise decision is to leave the church. You'll hear tons of opinions from others, but this is really something between you and God. Please let God - and not man - guide your views on the church.

[KathyM]

KathyM, I understand where you are coming from. No one wants the person who is all about themself on a stage. I linked my story in the original post...

 

The gist of it is that i never really wanted to lead, I just saw a need for improvement and I recognized that I was the most passionate one about it. I didn't care who led what as long as the work got done.

 

Strangely enough, the Pastor's wife felt it was alright to lie to me and others and sabotaged great work. Why?

I read your story, and based on that, I gave you a possible reason why they felt someone else might have fulfilled the leadership role in a way that was more in keeping with the church's philosophy. It sounds like that was their concern also, based on what you posted, but whatever their reasons were, they should never have misled anyone about it. Unfortunately, some people lie if the truth is more difficult to discuss. I'm sorry you were lied to. As you know, the leaders of the church are not sinless. We are all sinners who have fallen short. Hopefully, those who are in a position of leadership in the church would hold themselves to a higher standard of integrity and honesty, but that is not always the case. I know of many church leaders who are wonderful, giving, moral, loving people with high integrity. I also know of a few who have put their own interests ahead of their integrity. I'm a firm believer that the integrity of the pastor and his wife and the church leadership are very important to the functioning and morale of the church. Perhaps you should confront this pastor's wife and explain how disappointed you are in her deception.

[Kaiten]

Perhaps you should confront this pastor's wife and explain how disappointed you are in her deception.

 

It was just strange that she didnt want me to be any part of the team at all. That is just odd. Why did ONLY her not want me to be a part of that team. EVERYONE ELSE thought i should lead it. I only wanted to see the team fulfill the vision the Pastor's wife claimed she had for it.

 

My friend who was the leader of it said she fought tooth and nail to get my assistance but she was told that i didnt want to do it. There is literally no way that she could have thought that I didnt want to do it.

 

Going to her will likely result in her dodging it. Who is to say she will be honest even then? I think I will wait. Right now the only advantage I have is that she doesnt know that I know she lied. And with her power she could easliy ruin what little reputation i have. No one would ever believe me over her. So obviously that isnt the route i should take. Hahaha I have a feeling that I will figure this out. Here is hoping that justice wins out...

[M30USA]

M30USA -

 

I believe your suspicion is correct. This does indeed look like a great falling away. But why wouldn't it be? Look at the leadership of the church...or lack thereof, really.

 

The great falling away doesn't mean people just stop going to church or stop calling themselves Christian. It means the church becomes virtually devoid of true Biblical doctrine and instead imitates the world.

Edited September 7, 2013 by M30USA

[happydate]

Kaiten,

 

You wrote..

 

In the book, the author talks about how church doesn't have to be fair because Jesus wasn't fair. The grounds for his claim is in the fact that Jesus healed people here and there as opposed to every single person, and that he chose 12 disciples instead of just anybody.

 

But let's look at God's founding principles. In his law, he did say that he WILL NOT and CAN NOT VIOLATE anyone's free will. Nor with his agents. So, if Jesus Christ is the son of god, what do you think he will do?

 

Jesus Christ had been KNOWN to ask the people who want to be healed if they believed in him or not. If the people did not believe in or have faith in him, then he walked away. This might seem heartless or un compassionate or even unfair to the observer like yourself or your church who did not understand God's true will. And that is, everyone has the right to exercise their own free will including the will NOT TO BE healed by Jesus Christ. 2000 years ago, not everyone agree with Jesus Christ's teachings and that include the sick and the disadvantage. But Jesus does not judge these people as his enemies, and so he would heal everyone when asked. But he would respect their free will by asking them if they want to be healed. Jesus Christ does not force nor ram down people's throat his will and desires to heal all people. He too has to respect god's will. Those people who only have complete faith in him and the lord can be healed. All his healing magic came from the Lord through him.

 

In fact, modern healers of today do EXACTLY like Jesus Christ. They heal the faithful who believe in Jesus and the Lord through channeling God's healing energy. The faithful understands the law of free will and that is, the law of cause and effect states that if you violate someone's free will, that cause will result in a returned effect.

 

There's one known saying that

 

"The road to hell is paved with good intentions!" which basically means that while your intentions are good to try to save people, you did not ask for their permission to be saved. This act then becomes a violation of the law of free will. Which is why some genuine healers will refuse to heal everyone like Jesus did. The ones out there to make a quick buck basically charges everyone and try to heal everyone with varying success.

 

In regards to churches and pastors in general. There are many people who represent the church believe that they have full protection from god. As I wear the shield of the cross, any misdeeds can not land on me including violation of the law of free will. So even some Christians believe that praying a decree or an invocation or a rosary of Archangel Michael in a form of a spiritual prayer give them the ultimate protection against evil spirits and deeds that violate the law of free will.

 

But unfortunately they misunderstood one thing. Even a spiritual protection prayer CAN NOT protect you against the law of free will. Which means that if you decide to lie, be deceitful or be manipulative someone's will while thinking you did your spiritual protection prayer, the prayer or representative of the house of god can NEVER violate the law of free will of others and you violate them anyhow, then no prayers nor even the bible can protect you. When someone decides to promote ideas like this, then it can only be one thing. The work of the devil, because it is the devil and his representative of evil spirits who can violate your free will through subversive suggestions. I think we understand the story of the Garden of Eden.

Edited September 9, 2013 by happydate

[todreaminblue]

I go to church every sunday or try to......i have sinned and continue to sin because i am nto perfect....

 

i smoke cigarettes, i swear ( i try really hard with this i dont like how i sound .....) and i make rude comments at times although i try to not, i get angry when i shouldn't, see swearing...... i make a mess and sometimes i don't clean it up especially when cooking...i dont answer the phone every time it rings either...i coudl go on....but that's just a start

 

and i sit in a church with other imperfect people, right next to them and we share our trials and admit to faults.... we take the sacrament together and vow to do better next week and ask for forgiveness......and we are forgiven and we try again......and with try ....is a whole lot of love and support.....from above and from people who sit right next to you

 

 

so.....i am sorry you arent happy and feel disillusioned by the attitudes and behavior of a select few in your faith....but they are everywhere in every church....you just have to believe in why you are there not why others are or there motives for what they do or say or think.....its not for us to know, god already knows....and he knows your heart and your abilities he will make a way for you to express your abilities to help others and for you to grow...trust in that...no pastors wife or pastor will stop gods will for you...if you are truly disillusioned about your faith however that is a different matter...i wish you light and happiness in prayer.....i truly feel you should talk to the one who knows what you should do...hugs...deb

Edited September 9, 2013 by todreaminblue

[BetheButterfly]

I have really been thinking about this. When is it ok for pastors to lie and deceive? Is this ever ok? Does "the anointing" they have make this ok?

 

This is a good question. I don't think it's ever ok for pastors or anybody to lie or deceive anybody, except for one exception: if someone's life is in danger.

 

The reason I think that one exception is ok is because of reading Corrie ten Boom's life story, where she lied to the authorities in order to protect Jewish people. (She and her family were part of the underground mission to rescue Jewish people from the Nazis.) So, I do think if mean people are wanting to hurt others and are asking questions about where they are, that this is the one and only exception where it is ok to lie in order to protect those in danger. I don't think it's ever ok to lie in any other circumstance!!!

 

 

If you havent read my story, this is what happened.

I will read it, and I'm sorry you had a horrible experience with a pastor/church.

 

Ever since then I have been extremely skeptical about church. I have been going to that church for over 5 years (which is a big deal for a 21 year old) and only because I wanted to be obedient.

Understood.

Recently a megachurch pastor wrote a book called Deep and Wide. Apparently the book is about making a church that un-churched people will love. Several leaders in my church (now former church, because I don't go to church anymore) have read that book.

I've never heard of that book, but I'm curious now.

 

In the book, the author talks about how church doesn't have to be fair because Jesus wasn't fair. The grounds for his claim is in the fact that Jesus healed people here and there as opposed to every single person, and that he chose 12 disciples instead of just anybody.

 

A church leader told me that I wouldnt be picked for anything because it had nothing to with whether or not I was good at it or passionate about it. It was totally up to the Pastor's wife what I was allowed to lead in church. Church didn't have to be fair because a "Successful Pastor" wrote a book saying that church didn't have to be fair. (I hate it when people in a church get ahold of a book and then they try to make everything fit the context of that one book...until they get another book...then the cycle repeats)

That is very weird logic. While life is not fair, followers of Jesus should strive to be fair because Jesus Christ prayed for us to be united. Unity without fairness doesn't last long.

 

I found it funny that they claimed passion or credentials didn't matter. Because that was ALL that mattered when choosing a pastor for youth or a worship music pastor. Credentials credentials credentials.

 

All my church life i was told how much "anointing" and prayer it took to be a pastor. So when my Pastors wife manipulated and deceived naturally I had questions. (She doesn't know that I know)

 

I have been scolded several times in church for asking innocent and sensible questions, so i decided it was best not to tell anyone what happened to my friend and I. At least for now.

 

But i already know what they are going to say. "Pastors are humans too. They arent perfect." Thats true. And then I realized that I am an imperfect human too. And thats when I realized that it may very well be possible that I am just as smart as any Pastor could be. If Pastors arent above lying...and all the other things they get media coverage for, then why exactly do I need them? I believe that I am skilled and passionate enough to lead even though I am young.

I think it's really important not to become dependent on a pastor, cause followers of Jesus Christ are to follow Jesus Christ, not other followers of Jesus Christ, you know what I mean?

Dont get me wrong. I believe that I need mentorship...I just want mentorship that is going to give me the time of day, and be straight up with me. I am done with this hierarchy of people that church creates.

Understood

 

Pastors

Youth Pastors

Other Clergy

Married couples with kids

Married couples

Kids

Single young adults

 

Steve Jobs once said that "Everything around you that you call life was created by people who are no smarter than you."

 

I happen to believe that. So when Pastors lie, is there ever a good reason? Is this ever excusable? Do people really even need church the institution? Are Pastors and other Clergy really "anointed" above others?

 

Or are we all equals, and all capable of greatness?

Again, the only good reason for anyone to lie, in my opinion, is if telling the truth = giving cruel people the location/information to hurt/kill another person. That, in my opinion, is the only good excuse for a lie.

 

I do think Christians need to join together in unity to help others, which is why I personally believe that the church as an institution can be a good thing and is when people are fair and strive to follow Jesus in a personal/individual relationship with Him. Together, we can help others more than apart.

 

God gives different gifts to people, but we are all equal. Paul talks about that, concerning being members of one body. We are all capable of greatness and we are all equals with different talents and "jobs" to do. For example, my job at church is to take care of babies. I also have the gift of showing mercy and a passion for helping people in danger. I am not better than anyone else, and others are not better than me.

 

The leaders at my church are wonderful men and women who are not better than me, yet their calling is different than mine. My senior pastor does not help with the babies, and that's ok. I would not want to preach; I like helping with the babies. My pastor's wife teaches the women's Bible study (which I LOVE!). She doesn't help with the babies either, and that's ok. Together, we are a team, and I think it's beautiful. We are part of the body of Christ where we have different jobs to do and we are all equal: one body, striving to help others for God's glory!