Do women get enough information on how to sustain relationships?

[SteveC80]

My problem is that in this day and age, it's always the men who are told how wrong they are and what they need to do to 'step it up', but not a word is ever said to the women. How can the women ever turn into the type of woman that can successfully participate in a long-term relationship if nobody is ever telling them anything? A lot of them have their moms telling them, "Get yourself a man that makes money!" Then daddy telling them,"You're a princess! You deserve the best!" Then society telling them,"Anything a man can do, you can do just as well if not better! You're an independent woman! You go girl!" Then you have 10,000 simps in their ear telling them, "Girl you are SO beautiful! I will drink your bathwater! I'd do ANYTHING for you!" Then you have television shows like bad girls club and sex and the city pumping them full of images of women goign crazy and being rewarded...

 

Is it any surprise women act like they do? Nobody is giving them any real information. Women 'back in the day' didn't have television constantly on and the content allowed on now would NOT be allowed back then. You had the traditional nuclear structure being respected, ie the man is the breadwinner, respect your man, cook, clean and sew, etc. Feminism is pretty much the philosophy that attempts to make dating a woman as unappealing as possible.

[fanine]

Yep, but not all of us take any notice of this.....

[Maleficent]

For ****'s sake when will men stop trying to blame women for their inability to get and keep a date?

 

seriously.

[serial muse]

My problem is that in this day and age, it's always the men who are told how wrong they are and what they need to do to 'step it up', but not a word is ever said to the women.

 

It's true. I've never heard word one about this in all my livelong days. Just guys drinking my bathwater while cooing "you go girl" in my ear.

[soccerrprp]

Is it any surprise women act like they do? Nobody is giving them any real information. Women 'back in the day' didn't have television constantly on and the content allowed on now would NOT be allowed back then. You had the traditional nuclear structure being respected, ie the man is the breadwinner, respect your man, cook, clean and sew, etc. Feminism is pretty much the philosophy that attempts to make dating a woman as unappealing as possible.

 

It, AGAIN, astonishes me that I am living on the same planet as some of you guys who blame feminism for the ills of society w/o having an inkling of an understanding to what precipitated and gave feminism it's impetus in the first place....astonishing.

 

As a man who regards feminism with some doubt and indifferent and peculiar interest, I have always dated women who have been put together, feminine, mostly TRADITIONAL and, for the most part, confident.

 

All of these shows you talk about, the over-sweetened words of encouragement, etc. derive DIRECTLY from centuries of women being relegated to, in some, situations, as second class citizens. Minimized, compromised, controlled, etc. Feminism is a DIRECT result of a society that did not regard its women with much respect, consideration....

 

Has it made dating more difficult? For me- NO. Why? I suspect it has to do with the fact that:

 

1. I understand the history of feminism and the desire for women to break from under the grip of a largely patriarchal society. I don't agree with all of it, but I don't know a woman that does.

2. I don't fear it. I AM CONFIDENT IN WHO I AM.

3. I don't go half-cocked about how women are ALL feminists, want only money, tall, dark, handsome, men, WHAAA WHAA WHAA

4. I recognize that for some women their own insecurities make them the bytches that they become. Sometimes to protect themselves, other times, well, b/c they are simply crappy people. But, in the end, they are mostly looking for someone who is confident, got their act together, reliable, faithful. And there's nothing feminist about that!

 

I have a daughter and when she is ready to start talking about dating, you better believe I'm going to "warn" her about the angry, pissy men that exist. And that, my friends, has nothing to do with being a feminist or indoctrinating feminist ideas.

[Maleficent]

My problem is that in this day and age, it's always the men who are told how wrong they are and what they need to do to 'step it up', but not a word is ever said to the women. How can the women ever turn into the type of woman that can successfully participate in a long-term relationship if nobody is ever telling them anything? A lot of them have their moms telling them, "Get yourself a man that makes money!" Then daddy telling them,"You're a princess! You deserve the best!" Then society telling them,"Anything a man can do, you can do just as well if not better! You're an independent woman! You go girl!" Then you have 10,000 simps in their ear telling them, "Girl you are SO beautiful! I will drink your bathwater! I'd do ANYTHING for you!" Then you have television shows like bad girls club and sex and the city pumping them full of images of women goign crazy and being rewarded...

 

Is it any surprise women act like they do? Nobody is giving them any real information. Women 'back in the day' didn't have television constantly on and the content allowed on now would NOT be allowed back then. You had the traditional nuclear structure being respected, ie the man is the breadwinner, respect your man, cook, clean and sew, etc. Feminism is pretty much the philosophy that attempts to make dating a woman as unappealing as possible.

 

Also, this post reeks of sexism and is misogynist.

 

You are basically complaining at how women got to get out of the kitchen and become their own person, no longer depend on men and be portrayed as a sexual being.

boohoo!

[Maleficent]

It, AGAIN, astonishes me that I am living on the same planet as some of you guys who blame feminism for the ills of society w/o having an inkling of an understanding to what precipitated and gave feminism it's impetus in the first place....astonishing.

 

As a man who regards feminism with some doubt and indifferent and peculiar interest, I have always dated women who have been put together, feminine, mostly TRADITIONAL and, for the most part, confident.

 

All of these shows you talk about, the over-sweetened words of encouragement, etc. derive DIRECTLY from centuries of women being relegated to, in some, situations, as second class citizens. Minimized, compromised, controlled, etc. Feminism is a DIRECT result of a society that did not regard its women with much respect, consideration....

 

Has it made dating more difficult? For me- NO. Why? I suspect it has to do with the fact that:

 

1. I understand the history of feminism and the desire for women to break from under the grip of a largely patriarchal society. I don't agree with all of it, but I don't know a woman that does.

2. I don't fear it. I AM CONFIDENT IN WHO I AM.

3. I don't go half-cocked about how women are ALL feminists, want only money, tall, dark, handsome, men, WHAAA WHAA WHAA

4. I recognize that for some women their own insecurities make them the bytches that they become. Sometimes to protect themselves, other times, well, b/c they are simply crappy people. But, in the end, they are mostly looking for someone who is confident, got their act together, reliable, faithful. And there's nothing feminist about that!

 

I have a daughter and when she is ready to start talking about dating, you better believe I'm going to "warn" her about the angry, pissy men that exist. And that, my friends, has nothing to do with being a feminist or indoctrinating feminist ideas.

 

I love you!

[carhill]

Do women get enough information on how to sustain relationships?

 

With sufficient role-modeling and socialization prior to peer integration, I believe women get plenty of, and certainly 'enough' information to sustain relationships in a healthy way. What they choose to do is their own proclivity and with its own attendant consequences.

 

If anything, and I'll take responsibility for my generation of parents, we've slipped, in general, in the role-modeling and socialization department. Society doesn't control us. We make choices. Those choices are our responsibility.

[white]

Women? Wrong question. The right question would be "People". I think nobody gets this sort of information and guidance any more. There's no tradition of it, and if there were it'd be out of date in todays world. It's thoroughly ordinary for people to reach their mid thirties with a string of failed relationships behind them and only then, at that point, have learned enough on their own to maybe make one work properly, maybe.

[Ruby Slippers]

America is an empire in decline.

 

Modern women and men's extended adolescence and reluctance to long-term partner and create families is a problem. The core of any strong, healthy society is strong, healthy families.

 

Healthy families are not modeled very well in our culture. The very idea of commitment and family is ridiculed as an antiquated, outmoded notion. It's all about the shell, the bling, the image.

 

Both women and men have to start setting some new standards, asking more from themselves and one another.

[imfine]

Once upon a time, I worked full time, took care of the children, kept a clean house, had a home cooked meal on the table at a reasonable time, did at least half of the yard work & home maintenance, managed the finances, and took care of my now exH all while working out & staying attractive. In return I got no respect, care or concern from him. I was raised in the South and the qualities you stated to maintain a relationship were drilled in me from birth. As a result I was exhausted, depressed & resentful. Now, I still work full time, take care of my children, keep a clean house, cook every meal, do all of the yard work & home maintenance, manage the finance & work out & stay attractive. Only difference, I don't have so called man making me feel worthless. I do it all for my children & myself. Will I ever allow a man to be a part of my life again? Perhaps. But it will be a cold day in hell before I ever play the traditional Southern stepford wife again and receive little to nothing in return, most importantly respect. If you are having problems with women, look at yourself. Many women will bend over backwards for a man who is deserving. A man that expects to receive near perfection and not reciprocate, well, I'm too good for you. No apologies.

Edited September 4, 2013 by imfine
clarification

[Woggle]

My only issue is when they expect the sun moon and stars but think it is degrading for them to do anything nice for a man. Why would I or any self respecting man want to be with a woman who thinks it makes her a stepford wife to treat me well. Would a woman want to be with man who thought it made him whipped to treat her well? I doubt any would so I should a man not want a woman that actually knows how to treat a man?

[soccerrprp]

Once upon a time, I worked full time, took care of the children, kept a clean house, had a home cooked meal on the table at a reasonable time, did at least half of the yard work & home maintenance, managed the finances, and took care of my now exH all while working out & staying attractive. In return I got no respect, care or concern from him. I was raised in the South and the qualities you stated to maintain a relationship were drilled in me from birth. As a result I was exhausted, depressed & resentful. Now, I still work full time, take care of my children, keep a clean house, cook every meal, do all of the yard work & home maintenance, manage the finance & work out & stay attractive. Only difference, I don't have so called man making me feel worthless. I do it all for my children & myself. Will I ever allow a man to be a part of my life again? Perhaps. But it will be a cold day in hell before I ever play the traditional Southern stepford wife again and receive little to nothing in return, most importantly respect. If you are having problems with women, look at yourself. Many women will bend over backwards for a man who is deserving. A man that expects to receive near perfection and reciprocate, well, I'm too good for you. No apologies.

 

And this is what I dreadfully cannot understand about (esp. USA men, not all, of course) men. When they reminisce or look back to "those" days, what they're really yearning for is what you have described above. It's too much WORK for many men today, so they complain. They want to go back to the Leave it to Beaver days and imagery which were illusionary.

 

Frankly, have no desire to be with a woman like June Cleaver. Unadventurous, obedient to a fault, closed to the world and likely passionless in bed. [shivers] In those days, I can only dread the talks that little girls got as to how they were to satisfy their man and not think of what would be satisfying, liberating for them.

 

Those were NOT the good old days for a number of reasons....

Edited September 4, 2013 by soccerrprp

[soccerrprp]

My only issue is when they expect the sun moon and stars but think it is degrading for them to do anything nice for a man. Why would I or any self respecting man want to be with a woman who thinks it makes her a stepford wife to treat me well. Would a woman want to be with man who thought it made him whipped to treat her well? I doubt any would so I should a man not want a woman that actually knows how to treat a man?

 

Woggle,

 

Where do you find such women???? I have never in my life met a woman that wants her man whipped.....never. If such women exist, and I believe they must, then they are bad news, but not indicative of most women.

[imfine]

And this is what I dreadfully cannot understand about (esp. USA men, not all, of course) men. When they reminisce or look back to "those" days, what they're really yearning for is what you have described above. It's too much WORK for many men today, so they complain. They want to go back to the Leave it to Beaver days and imagery which were illusionary.

 

Frankly, have no desire to be with a woman like June Cleaver. Unadventurous, obedient to a fault, closed to the world and likely passionless in bed. [shivers] In those days, I can only dread the talks that little girls got as to how they were to satisfy their man and not think of what would be satisfying, liberating for them.

 

Those were NOT the good old days for a number of reasons....

Women can have it all now. Career, family & still climb mountains on the weekend. Those things cultivate passion for some of us. Men need to be sure they're deserving otherwise they'll strike out with women they desire.

[Woggle]

Woggle,

 

Where do you find such women???? I have never in my life met a woman that wants her man whipped.....never. If such women exist, and I believe they must, then they are bad news, but not indicative of most women.

 

I have known a number of women throughout the years who thought it was degrading to show any loving or kind actions towards a man.

[soccerrprp]

I have known a number of women throughout the years who thought it was degrading to show any loving or kind actions towards a man.

 

Holy crap! I am SOOO happy that I have never met such a woman. I just can't imagine the horror of being with or even acquainted with such a life-sucking human-being. I can only imagine that they had been really pissed on by men in the past or they had some disturbing emotional/psychological issues going on.

 

Sorry you had to experience them.

[Woggle]

Holy crap! I am SOOO happy that I have never met such a woman. I just can't imagine the horror of being with or even acquainted with such a life-sucking human-being.

 

Sorry you had to experience them.

 

They are the reason I have the views I have and while I don't really agree with the OP I sympathize with him. He has probably been through the same things I have.

[white]

Just to counterpoint once again, I've met many men who felt it was degrading to show love and kindness. Men who unironically joke about women not pulling their weight at home, men who've cheated on every girlfriend/wife, men who have committed nothing to a relationship except a penis and finances, and selfish with that. Men whose world view is stone age, despite their parents living right through the liberal age - one can only assume they think it's clever to act that way.

 

This is not a woman issue, or even a man/woman issue, it is a people issue. The same problem that contributes to the pitiable consumerism and material obsessions we have today, the obsession with social media appearance, celebrity culture, etc. Nobody seems to know how to be more than consumers, black holes orbiting each other, any more.

[crederer]

While I agree that SOME women fit what you are saying, the majority don't. You shouldn't generalize like that.

 

I know plenty of momma's boys that fit the same outline you just posted.

 

They are also in miniority.

 

Find someone that doesn't fit that description. There, problem solved.

[MrCastle]

When they don't understand, you tell them (slowly) that they messed up. Give them a time out if you have to.

[TheGuard13]

Women? Wrong question. The right question would be "People". I think nobody gets this sort of information and guidance any more. There's no tradition of it, and if there were it'd be out of date in todays world. It's thoroughly ordinary for people to reach their mid thirties with a string of failed relationships behind them and only then, at that point, have learned enough on their own to maybe make one work properly, maybe.

 

This is somewhat true, it just isn't something that is discussed much in mainstream life, or given much weight in many families and friendships. I've found that intelligently written self-help books and even the internet are goldmines of information about basic relationship stuff. Most people, sadly, just don't seem to want to learn that much.

[Maleficent]

the 80% of women who do not identify as feminists, and 83% of women who don't want their daughters identifying as feminists (recent survey study),

 

Not identifying as feminists doesn't we aren't feminists.

 

Today's opinions of 'feminists' (or as some like to call them, feminazies) is so negative that I can understand most of us not wanting to identify.

 

It doesn't mean we don't agree with the ideas...

[StanMusial]

This is somewhat true, it just isn't something that is discussed much in mainstream life, or given much weight in many families and friendships. I've found that intelligently written self-help books and even the internet are goldmines of information about basic relationship stuff. Most people, sadly, just don't seem to want to learn that much.

 

The problem is, these are skills that are really difficult to learn off a book.

 

When I read many of the posts on here it makes me wonder about the background and upbringing (or lack thereof) of the people with the problems. I think OP is raising a valid point, not surprised he is getting castigated for it though.

[nescafe1982]

Not identifying as feminists doesn't we aren't feminists.

 

Today's opinions of 'feminists' (or as some like to call them, feminazies) is so negative that I can understand most of us not wanting to identify.

 

It doesn't mean we don't agree with the ideas...

 

This is something I'm noticing a lot too. It's kind of sad, really. Young women wish not to be defined as "feminists" because of all the negative stereotypes the word evokes... stereotypes encouraged by misogynists. Some of these stereotypes are clearly employed in this thread, for example (if the shoe fits, wear it. if not, throw it at OP or Dasein, et al). But if we let that reactionary discourse overwhelm the actual objectives of feminism, the recent advances in women's rights might find themselves turned back, all the while we're too afraid to identify as what we are: feminists.

 

When I ask young women (say on my college campus, where I do this exercise at the beginning of each term) if they are "feminists," 3 or 4 out of 5 will say "no" or look at me like they are unsure how to respond. But then, if I ask them, "should women earn as much as men in comparable careers," "should women have legal protections against domestic abuse," "does improved access to reproductive healthcare/family planning mean social progress," or even "should employers extend benefits to women workers who have a child (paid maternity, or even paternity leave)," I find that there are many more feminists out there who are "in the closet" for fear of the Schlaflyeque backlash that has come into vogue of late.

 

So yes, self-reported numbers on feminism are skewed against the movement. But this is because many of these ideas have become mainstream, and also because there are so many ****heads out there that spout off about "feminism" (in scare quotes) because they are angry boys.

 

Edit to add: as for OP's question on modelling relationships and advice: self-help books are almost always directed at women. Why? They are the most avid seekers of relationship advice, by an exponential factor. I think your question missteps by depending on a fallacious heuristic... but the reality is that women seek (and receive) a lot more "data" about how to start and maintain a relationship with a man. It is still sold to us as the "primary" goal of womanhood, moreover.

Edited September 4, 2013 by nescafe1982