Bad seed or mental disorder?

[loveregardless]

Children who learn that no matter how they communicate they will not be attended to will usually resort to either trying to please everyone around them in order to garner positive attention, or acting out to get negative attention (which is better than no attention). Once this pattern has been established the child will continue in this manner.

 

Exactly.

[bluechocolate]

from loveregardless

but you are not BETTER, and you are not above them. They are still your family and they deserve your care if nothing else. You don't have to accept them, you don't have to agree with them, but you are not them, and no one has a right to judge them.

I didn't say I was better than him & did not mean to imply the same. My apathy about why he is the way he is has no malice or judgment - it is just that - apathy. I don't believe that blood is necessarily thicker than water, we are 2 adults who live thousands of miles apart & have very little in common other than our mother & father. There is a long history here which I don't really want to go into, suffice to say that apathy is a lot more productive than bitterness. Whatever the reasons are for a "bad seed", they can destroy the entire equilibrium of a family & when there are siblings present they get caught in the cross-fire.

from Tiki

So do you not communicate with him whatsoever?

No. As I said above, we live thousands of miles apart & have very little in common. Once I moved out of my parents house I hardly ever spoke to him - of course if he's at my parents the same time when I visit them we get along, watch a movie, have a beer, whatever. But that is the extent of our communication.

from Tiki

I just have a lot of fears being around him, I want to protect my safety and my family's.

It's good that you remain in touch with him, clearly you get along on some level & are able to enjoy each others company. Your fears, however, are justified. He's already proven before that family ties mean little to him when he's desperate. My brother has had many, many opportunities for help & and I said, my mother, bless her, hasn't given up hope. Maybe someday she'll see some success for all her efforts but I'm afraid she's gonna die before that day ever comes.

[tiki]

Originally posted by bluechocolate

It's good that you remain in touch with him, clearly you get along on some level & are able to enjoy each others company. Your fears, however, are justified. He's already proven before that family ties mean little to him when he's desperate. My brother has had many, many opportunities for help & and I said, my mother, bless her, hasn't given up hope. Maybe someday she'll see some success for all her efforts but I'm afraid she's gonna die before that day ever comes.

 

Thanks BC...guess you never really know until you are in that situation. I don't like to feel like I have to forgive and forget, forgive and forget, forgive and forget. It's a vicious cycle. Sometimes a cycle of all lies. Sometimes you're out a precious amount of time, money, energy and so on.

 

I'm glad that you are able to remain civil with your brother too. Sometimes people are so tremendously different, you can't help but to go down a different path. I love my brother. I don't love his choices. I choose to be at a distance from him, a safe distance at that, because my home (family) is my number one obligation. He's grown up enough (age 25) to fend for himself. Let him do it. I'm not here to babysit. I've got a complete life of my own. Now he needs to take responsibility for his. I hope he does. He will be in jail for a while, he gets his license back in February (multiple DUI's) and maybe he can get another decent job since he got fired from his. I know it's a rough life with a felony, but felonies aren't free...you work for those.

[Elmo]

Originally posted by meanon

The law usually treats people who offend due to mental illness differently to those who are healthy. So in your scenario, if the illness was thought to mitigate responsibility for their behaviour, they would be in a maximum security hospital, not prison.

 

Children do bear a degree of responsibility for their actions, but their age must be taken into account. Of course there are many reasons why kids behave poorly: parenting, society, alienation, peers, personality too. Despite this, they need to begin to be held accountable for their actions. It does them no favours to be excused indefinitely and then have the book thrown at them as soon as they turn 16.

 

Thanks for your reply (and everyone else who took the time, too).

 

I initially thought that the prison system treated the mentally ill differently, but doing research on my project I found out otherwise.

 

Most, except EXTREME cases are kept in regular facilities, but end up in solitary much more than the general population. It is quite sad.

 

I'm still not sure where I'll come out in regards to my book. On one hand I think some people manipulate the system by claiming mental illness...on the other hand I know it exists.

 

I still see a link between "genetic brain disorder" and the old "bad seed" theory. Just now it is the politically correct version.

 

This topic is very complex, interesting and disheartening re: the prisons. I really do not understand why they put drug addicts in with sociopaths.

[Elmo]

Originally posted by meanon

The law usually treats people who offend due to mental illness differently to those who are healthy. So in your scenario, if the illness was thought to mitigate responsibility for their behaviour, they would be in a maximum security hospital, not prison.

 

Children do bear a degree of responsibility for their actions, but their age must be taken into account. Of course there are many reasons why kids behave poorly: parenting, society, alienation, peers, personality too. Despite this, they need to begin to be held accountable for their actions. It does them no favours to be excused indefinitely and then have the book thrown at them as soon as they turn 16.

 

 

Originally posted by Tanlita

I am the mother of 5 children. 2 are my own 3 are my step children......all of them drive me a little nuts! And because you don't know me, I also have under my belt 24 neices and nephews and 12 godchildren, all of which I maintain a relationship with. Since I was old enough to hold a baby - kids have been a big part of my life. This post is going to tick a few of you off I'm sure.....but here it goes:

 

I'm not sure if I agree there aren't what people would call 'bad seeds'. I wouldn't call them that but I would say there are individuals with a propensity for trouble. I don't know why, improper parenting may well be to blame, but it could be chalked up to food additives!

Not all people are good. Not all kids are good. It's the very nature of life.....some good.....some not so good.

I do believe that ADD or ADHD are pigeon holes, and I do believe that lack of proper parenting is hurting our kids. 'Parenting skills' has become a overly- complicated monster in the last 20-30 years and our prisons and to some extent our mental institutions are full of our failed attempts.

 

It's not any better now than it was in the 30's,40's & 50's, there's just more of them. Now these 'bad seeds' that destroy others and themselves have a full rack of agencies and advocates to make sure they are still able to do so.

 

Yours is the response I was looking for.

 

In all the anectdotal evidence I've come across...this is what I find over and over.

 

Not all kids are good. No matter how good the parenting....

 

This used to be called "character" or "temperment". Now, it is called ADHD, bipolar, etc. Now, to be sure, I believe in minimal brain disfunction, which ADHD used to be called before it became a popular diagnosis....and true Bipolar. But in the last 15-20 years character and termperment have gone by the wayside. Now misbehaving or social disfunction is not a responsibility issue....but victimization issue.

 

Still, I do believe in a genetic predisposition in true bi-polar and depression and alcoholism/drug addiction.

 

Very complex. Thanks for your input.

[Elmo]

Originally posted by loveregardless

I'm not trying to get pissy Tiki, I'm just trying to explain how it happened as you asked. And I did not misquote you, whether some or all of your family has disowned him you have made it quite clear that since his childhood he was "bad" and an "embarrassment". So please answer my question about how old he was when these adjectives were first being used in his presence to describe him...unless you don't really want to have anyone explain what reasons there would be for his "ending up" this way, and in that case, your right, he was born "bad".

Seriously though, if this is going to get sh*tty, then I don't even want to talk about it. I don't want to fight with you.

I was just deeply saddened by his case and your telling of it, and I thought I had some pretty good questions to ask that might give you some incite into the 'why'.

 

LR, is there ANYTHING that a relation of yours could do to you or your family that you would not excuse because he is a "victim"?

 

Alot of people had rotten childhoods. Not everyone chooses to rob their families houses, do crack, make really horrid personal choices.

 

Why didn't all the little kids that lived through starvation, seeing their parents killed, etc. in WWII German concentration camps end up criminals? Gee, they had it tough, too, huh? Most went on to very productive lives after liberation.

 

Call me an a-hole, but I believe (except in severe cases of mental illness like schizophrenia, tru bi-polar) people have to suck up the good with the bad and take care of their own business. The world truely will not care or put forth more effort than an individual does. JMHO.

[blind_otter]

This will probably be ignored....but oh, well.

 

I've said it before, "Some parents have a real need to believe that they are not totally responsible for the actions of their children, and they will not listen to anyone trying to tell them that they are. Rationalizing that responsibility away becomes second nature to them. The bad seed theory was custom made to suit their purposes. To reach them, all you need do is support the possibility. "

 

Comparing children who suffer trauma to those who never experienced parenting isn't possible. The two scenarios are mutually exclusive. THe attitude you describe is common - and part and parcel of the issue with mental illness.

 

You have done research, good. I worked at a forensic mental hospital for violent male criminals when I was getting my BS. There is a serious deficit in the treatment of mental illness amongst incarcerated individuals - this stems from the Reagan era, I won't go into particulars, but many forensic mental hospitals were shut down because of the very attitude you display. Thus, many homeless men and women who belong in institutions are not receiving proper treatment.

 

The current goal of forensic mental hospitals is to decrease malingering, and move residents into more appropriate treatment settings, preferably in low-security instutional settings. But legal competency issues dictate that the majority of mentally ill inmates are in a mental hospital for as long as it takes to become legally competant, then they stand trial, are sentenced, and their medication is managed by psychiatrists in the prison itself - again, this stems from the "bad seed" ideology. People aren't getting treated because if you are bad from inception, there is no possible avenue of treatment.

 

Infants are not born bad, I am sorry. From personal observation I agree with the critical period idea, the concept is true of language acquisition. The idea that we are born bad - flawed or "in sin" at the outset - is a concept developed mostly by the mythologies of the major Western religions.

 

I have yet to see a baby that maliciously hurts other people. "Good" and "Bad" are arbitrary value judgements, in terms of psychological evaluation. If I wrote "BAD PERSON" on an intake eval, my mentor would have laughed in my face. Granted, I worked with men who had severe schizophrenia and personality disorders on the severe end of the spectrum.

 

Honestly, looking at their criminal records and case histories, I noticed a pattern - consistent parental neglect. That was a stunning commonality amongst residents from all walks of life, from the wealthy tennis pro who had a psychotic breakdown and stabbed his mother, to the BPD resident who was born to a crack-addicted mother and lived in foster care until he was 12.

 

There are innate and external factors that go into creating a "monster" as it were. To pin the blame entirely on genetics or entirely on environment ignores the multitude of factors that go into mental illness.

 

My advice is to speak with a professional who actively works at a forensic mental institution.

[loveregardless]

I completely agree 100%

[Elmo]

Originally posted by blind_otter

This will probably be ignored....but oh, well.

 

I've said it before, "Some parents have a real need to believe that they are not totally responsible for the actions of their children, and they will not listen to anyone trying to tell them that they are. Rationalizing that responsibility away becomes second nature to them. The bad seed theory was custom made to suit their purposes. To reach them, all you need do is support the possibility. "

 

Comparing children who suffer trauma to those who never experienced parenting isn't possible. The two scenarios are mutually exclusive. THe attitude you describe is common - and part and parcel of the issue with mental illness.

 

You have done research, good. I worked at a forensic mental hospital for violent male criminals when I was getting my BS. There is a serious deficit in the treatment of mental illness amongst incarcerated individuals - this stems from the Reagan era, I won't go into particulars, but many forensic mental hospitals were shut down because of the very attitude you display. Thus, many homeless men and women who belong in institutions are not receiving proper treatment.

 

The current goal of forensic mental hospitals is to decrease malingering, and move residents into more appropriate treatment settings, preferably in low-security instutional settings. But legal competency issues dictate that the majority of mentally ill inmates are in a mental hospital for as long as it takes to become legally competant, then they stand trial, are sentenced, and their medication is managed by psychiatrists in the prison itself - again, this stems from the "bad seed" ideology. People aren't getting treated because if you are bad from inception, there is no possible avenue of treatment.

 

Infants are not born bad, I am sorry. From personal observation I agree with the critical period idea, the concept is true of language acquisition. The idea that we are born bad - flawed or "in sin" at the outset - is a concept developed mostly by the mythologies of the major Western religions.

 

I have yet to see a baby that maliciously hurts other people. "Good" and "Bad" are arbitrary value judgements, in terms of psychological evaluation. If I wrote "BAD PERSON" on an intake eval, my mentor would have laughed in my face. Granted, I worked with men who had severe schizophrenia and personality disorders on the severe end of the spectrum.

 

Honestly, looking at their criminal records and case histories, I noticed a pattern - consistent parental neglect. That was a stunning commonality amongst residents from all walks of life, from the wealthy tennis pro who had a psychotic breakdown and stabbed his mother, to the BPD resident who was born to a crack-addicted mother and lived in foster care until he was 12.

 

There are innate and external factors that go into creating a "monster" as it were. To pin the blame entirely on genetics or entirely on environment ignores the multitude of factors that go into mental illness.

 

My advice is to speak with a professional who actively works at a forensic mental institution.

 

This post was not ignored by me. I appreciate your taking the time.

 

I understand you could not write "bad person" on a psych evaluation. I am still not convinced that this would not be a proper evaluation.

 

I'm not sure that young children could "not" be evil.

 

Not convinced, either, that every parent is to blame.

 

Thanks for your thoughtful response. Makes me think.

[Pocky]

I'm not reading through the entire post so someone may have already said this: Brain scans have been done on criminals that participated in extremely violent crimes and there are significant differences compared to (what is considered) normal brain scans. If I can recall, there is a lack of activity in the part of the brain that is associated to reason and an increase of brain activity in the areas that respond to anger, rage, violence and a type of survival response. I have seen so many documentaries, it's hard to keep track, but I'd suggest doing a search on the Science Channel, review the Frontline series and also America Undercover (if you were interested).

[Elmo]

Originally posted by Pocky

I'm not reading through the entire post so someone may have already said this: Brain scans have been done on criminals that participated in extremely violent crimes and there are significant differences compared to (what is considered) normal brain scans. If I can recall, there is a lack of activity in the part of the brain that is associated to reason and an increase of brain activity in the areas that respond to anger, rage, violence and a type of survival response. I have seen so many documentaries, it's hard to keep track, but I'd suggest doing a search on the Science Channel, review the Frontline series and also America Undercover (if you were interested).

 

Hmmm...the brain scan thing is something to look into. I wonder about how they have been used with the ADHD diagnosis. I am guessing, but I don't think this is real "science" used here....just to bolster the diagnosis. But, hey, I'm no Dr. or scientist, haven't done the research...just guessing.

 

Frontline is a fabulous program. I think I will do a search to see if they did a program about criminal intent/bio chemical imbalance. Good advice. Thanks.

[moimeme]

Elmo

 

If you are going to write a credible novel, then it behooves you to do genuine research and not just make assumptions about humanity and behaviour.

 

Alot of people had rotten childhoods. Not everyone chooses to rob their families houses, do crack, make really horrid personal choices.

 

So? A lot of people run races as children. Not everyone can be an Olympic athlete. Everyone learns to read and write but not everyone becomes a journalist or author. The point is that emotional strength is another trait like all others - it is different in different people. What doesn't beat one person down will crush another. This is not a character flaw or anything other than one more difference between humans.

 

Read up on 'resiliency' one of these days.

 

But I believe (except in severe cases of mental illness like schizophrenia, tru bi-polar) people have to suck up the good with the bad and take care of their own business.

 

That's like telling the blind to see and the paralyzed to walk. They do not do it because they cannot do it.

 

Honestly, looking at their criminal records and case histories, I noticed a pattern - consistent parental neglect. That was a stunning commonality amongst residents from all walks of life, from the wealthy tennis pro who had a psychotic breakdown and stabbed his mother, to the BPD resident who was born to a crack-addicted mother and lived in foster care until he was 12.

 

That, in fact, has been demonstrated in two separate studies. One was conducted in the US and one in Canada - both on violent criminals. They were subjected to extensive medical exams plus their histories were taken. They all have brain damage. Most were abused or neglected and in some cases, it appears the brain damage was caused by the abuse.

 

Brain scans have been done on criminals that participated in extremely violent crimes and there are significant differences compared to (what is considered) normal brain scans. If I can recall, there is a lack of activity in the part of the brain that is associated to reason and an increase of brain activity in the areas that respond to anger, rage, violence and a type of survival response.

 

In essence, the very part of the brain that fails people with AD/HD, the frontal lobes, is also to blame in the cases of violent criminals. This is not to say that violent criminals have AD/HD; there are many differences, but the 'brakes' that would stop people from being violent are damaged in violent criminals.

 

Links to similar information:

New Orleans)-A University of New Orleans researcher studying violence and aggression has found that "impulsive aggressive" individuals--the so-called "short fuse" type differ biologically from others. Even more, the researchers suggests Dilantin, the anti-convulsant drug used to treat epilepsy, helps with the treatment. Another university researcher studying girls says puberty serves as a triggering mechanism in anti-social adolescent girls.

http://mentalhealth.about.com/library/sci/0301/blvio301.htm

 

Some references for one of the violence researchers:

Barratt, E.S., Stanford, M.S., Kent, T.A., and Felthous, A.R. Neuropsychological and cognitive psychophysiological substrates of impulsive aggression. Biological Psychiatry, 41:393-397, 1997.

 

Barratt, E.S., Stanford, M.S., Felthous, A.R., and Kent, T.A. The effects of phenytoinon impulsive and premeditated aggression: A controlled study. J of Clinical Psychopharmacology, 17(5):341-349, 1997.

 

Barratt, E.S., Slaughter, L. Defining, Measuring, and Predicting Impulsive Aggression: A heuristic model. Behavioral Sciences and the Law, (In Press).

 

Reduced prefrontal and increased subcortical brain functioning assessed using positron emission tomography in predatory and affective murderers

http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/cgi-bin/abstract/10008196/ABSTRACT

 

Brain SPECT findings and aggressiveness.

The Amen Clinic for Behavioral Medicine, Fairfield, California 94585, USA

Ann Clin Psychiatry 1996 Sep;8(3):129-37

 

Forty adolescents and adults who exhibited aggressive behavior within the six months prior to evaluation by physically attacking another person or destroying property were evaluated with brain SPECT imaging. A control group of 40 psychiatric patients who had never been reported to exhibit aggressive behavior were also studied. The brain SPECT studies were read blind to aggressiveness by nuclear physician on two separate occasions. The interreading reliability was very high. The brain SPECT patterns of the group with aggressive behavior showed significant differences from the control group in several areas of brain. These findings were most often seen in the following combination: decreased activity in the prefrontal cortex, increased activity in the anteromedial portions of the frontal lobes, leftsided increased activity in the basal ganglia and/or limbic system in comparison to the whole brain and focal abnormalities in the left temporal lobe. These findings indicate a possible cerebral perfusion profile for those who exhibit violent or aggressive behavior. Several case studies and the implications for treatment are discussed.

http://www.brainplace.com/bp/abstracts/default.asp?valCategory=Aggression

 

I have always believed that no human who hurts another is completely well. Modern science is showing us that is very likely the case.

 

As to the SPECT scans showing mental illness, don't criticize until you go look at them. Read the science. Look at the evidence. You can't just talk off the top of your head - you have to inform yourself.

[blind_otter]

Originally posted by moimeme

Read Viktor Frankl's "Man's Search For Meaning". He was in a concentration camp and saw how some people managed to survive and others could not and wrote about it.

 

You can't just talk off the top of your head - you have to inform yourself.

 

Word.

 

Frankl's work in humanistic psychology is some of the most powerful stuff I've encountered. The personal experience and the unique perspective he gained because of the position the Nazi's put him in within the Auschwitz camp structure gave him the most pertinent data on human reactions to severe conditions.

[Elmo]

Originally posted by moimeme

Elmo

 

If you are going to write a credible novel, then it behooves you to do genuine research and not just make assumptions about humanity and behaviour.

 

Alot of people had rotten childhoods. Not everyone chooses to rob their families houses, do crack, make really horrid personal choices.

 

So? A lot of people run races as children. Not everyone can be an Olympic athlete. Everyone learns to read and write but not everyone becomes a journalist or author. The point is that emotional strength is another trait like all others - it is different in different people. What doesn't beat one person down will crush another. This is not a character flaw or anything other than one more difference between humans.

 

Read up on 'resiliency' one of these days.

 

But I believe (except in severe cases of mental illness like schizophrenia, tru bi-polar) people have to suck up the good with the bad and take care of their own business.

 

That's like telling the blind to see and the paralyzed to walk. They do not do it because they cannot do it.

 

That, in fact, has been demonstrated in two separate studies. One was conducted in the US and one in Canada - both on violent criminals. They were subjected to extensive medical exams plus their histories were taken. They all have brain damage. Most were abused or neglected and in some cases, it appears the brain damage was caused by the abuse.

 

In essence, the very part of the brain that fails people with AD/HD, the frontal lobes, is also to blame in the cases of violent criminals. This is not to say that violent criminals have AD/HD; there are many differences, but the 'brakes' that would stop people from being violent are damaged in violent criminals.

 

I have always believed that no human who hurts another is completely well. Modern science is showing us that is very likely the case.

 

As to the SPECT scans showing mental illness, don't criticize until you go look at them. Read the science. Look at the evidence. You can't just talk off the top of your head - you have to inform yourself.

 

Moimeme... First I'll adress all the scientific web site links, reports, books you provided. I'm sure these all back up what you believe. I'm also sure that someone else could provide as many links that prove the opposite.

 

Yes, I do hope to write a credible novel. Since it is a NOVEL, I am not holding myself to gather research in the manner I would if I was writing non-fiction. As a work of fiction, I am using annectdotal evidence as much as scientific research. Novels, are usually a flight of fancy...Even if they tackle difficult subjects.

 

Emotional strength IS a trait. This is part of what I understand to be temperment or character. I understand about resiliency. What I don't understand is your denial that some people do have poor characters, make bad choices, willingly hurt others. Some people have had okay childhoods but do wretched things to others. I am not sorry these types end up in jail and have little compassion for their plight.

 

You mention Viktor Frankl. Yes, I have read some of his works. Alot of people have read MAN'S SEARCH FOR MEANING. I believe his underlying theme is the freedom any person has to determine their own happiness/outcome in life. This is what I belive also. People have choices, no matter how badly they were treated. What I am turned off to are people who proudly wear the victim lable because their Mommy and Daddy didn't do everything just the right way. Or the school is unfair because they aren't pretty enough, or smart enough. Our culture is mired in this mindset. Absolutely the antithesis of what Frankl wrote about.

 

 

I've read some stories of young children that lived through internment in the camps. Yes, alot of them had a great deal of pain to deal with. Some committed suicide. I have not read of any that commited violent crimes against others after their release. Have you?

 

Comparing adhd and what passes for the "newer" bipolar diagnoses, to schizophrenia and true manic depression, is bizarre. Saying that adhd and mood swings are as victimizing as blindness or suffering paralysis is taking the victim thing to the highest level.