All men are dogs, right?

[compulsivedancer]

In what type of light are you viewing your H's behavior? I often read what you post and think no no no when I hear what your H is saying to you. Is "over the top expectations" accurate? I'm not sure if I am not liking his behavior because it is detrimental to your M, and your reconciliation, or if you are portraying him in a manner that is slightly derogatory and biased? I'm genuinely asking. I'm getting mixed signals from your posts lately. I feel cloudy on what you actually want from your M.

 

BTT, I imagine that a lot of this IS the way I portray things. I often post when I'm upset about an issue and mulling it over, rather than about the good stuff. Today, for instance was a wonderful day. Had a great morning, then we spent the day playing a board game with H's family and just plain had a good time, no A drama, no rehashing, just good times. Didn't think about it once.

 

H is a very intense person, and we think very differently. This can be a wonderful source of new ideas and we work very well as a team because we have such different perspectives. However, it means that we often clash about things. We have a tendency to have loud fights (in general, not A-specific) where we "put it all out there." We also have all-evening conversations about anything and everything.

 

The problem is, that often times he seems to be looking for some specific reassurance, and I can't find it exactly. And my personality requires a very exacting explanation sometimes, which sometimes makes me seem to be splitting hairs when I'm really just trying to be accurate and truthful. He also wants me to answer his questions from the gut, but a lot of the time, I need a few minutes to think through what he's asking. This makes him second-guess my answers.

 

Also, as LS people would probably agree from my posts, I am not harsh enough about OM, and this plays a big role in H's anger and frustration. He also has a lot more than typical anger about OM because he trusted OM as much (more?) than he trusted me, after a 15-year friendship. For him, OM's betrayal is just as strong as mine, or more. I've heard LS posters refer to our scenario as "double betrayal."

 

I was in the middle of typing a response out to your question Friday or Sat, and OM came in and confessed to me that he was struggling a lot more than usual, that he hadn't shown me the extent to which he was struggling. We are trying to buy the house that we are currently renting, and for him it is a pretty scary step because of the A, but it is a now or never thing as far as this house goes.

 

What do I want from our marriage? I want the marriage that we had before, but with the improvements we've made to it. I want to have the marriage that lasts a lifetime, that in 60 years, we will still look forward to our time together. I understand that the A won't go away, but I want the everyday pain of it to no longer be part of H's existence. I want him to be able to heal.

 

I want to have kids with him and to have him someday trust me again and enjoy life with me. I don't want to come home anymore to a sad, hurt, broken H. I want to be able to somehow make it up to him. I want to be able to prove to him that I have grown as a person and can be the wife that he needs me to be.

[2.50 a gallon]

cd

 

Being blunt, I think that you might have a touch of "get-over-it-itis". From my reading this seems to be a common symptom amongst WS.

 

From your point of view, the affair is over, there has been no contact for almost 6 months, you have come clean, told H you love him and have chosen H over the OM, want to stay married to H and you feel it is time to move on and can't understand why H has not started the journey with you.

 

"You want the marriage you had before." Think about it, why would your H want the marriage you had before? One in which you had an affair with his best friend.

 

And it is not a double betrayal, it is far worse.

 

It is expected that other men well be wanting to get in my lady's pants. But never my closest friend. We are supposed to have each others backs

 

There is nothing worse than a buddy f&cker

 

The old marriage is gone, the two of you need to build a new one. But first you have to understand, that it might be years before he gets over your betrayal.

 

His triggers, are every where. The car you were driving, even your home

[Zenstudent]

....

 

What do I want from our marriage? I want the marriage that we had before, but with the improvements we've made to it. I want to have the marriage that lasts a lifetime, that in 60 years, we will still look forward to our time together. I understand that the A won't go away, but I want the everyday pain of it to no longer be part of H's existence. I want him to be able to heal.

 

I want to have kids with him and to have him someday trust me again and enjoy life with me. I don't want to come home anymore to a sad, hurt, broken H. I want to be able to somehow make it up to him. I want to be able to prove to him that I have grown as a person and can be the wife that he needs me to be.

CD; I don't even know how I got through the entire thread since it triggered me badly, not your fault though, I must have a masochist desire hidden somewhere.

 

Anyway; the above bolded, my wife says the exact same thing to me once in a while, and it really, really pisses me off. We might as well get a divorce if that's the ultimate goal. I don't want a marriage that was obviously not worth anything to her, since she chose to risk throwing it all away.

 

I want something different. Does your husband agree that this should be your goal?

 

I agree with 2.50 that it smells a bit like get-over-it-aready-itis (never heard of it, but sensed it a lot lately).

 

On topic; if my wife had the same desire to know that their relationship meant more than just sex to OM, I would be worried. I would see it as a sign of her checking out.

[compulsivedancer]

Then why did you say it is heartbreaking and that you want closure? You said this in response to the idea that your H expects you to turn around and walk the other way from him, using the word "literally" as if it was unreasonable.

 

Hmm. I did say that. I guess I no longer wish to contact him, but it is hard to imagine seeing him and not asking those questions. And yet the thought of seeing him is a bit terrifying. I'm not at all ready to see him. Maybe that's the problem. Maybe I'll be "ready" when I CAN just bump into him at the store and turn around and walk away.

 

All I can say is that, like many things, what I think/feel one moment and what I think/feel the next is not always the same. I have contradictory thoughts and contradictory feelings. Bleh.

[road]

Hmm. I did say that. I guess I no longer wish to contact him, but it is hard to imagine seeing him and not asking those questions. And yet the thought of seeing him is a bit terrifying. I'm not at all ready to see him. Maybe that's the problem. Maybe I'll be "ready" when I CAN just bump into him at the store and turn around and walk away.

 

All I can say is that, like many things, what I think/feel one moment and what I think/feel the next is not always the same. I have contradictory thoughts and contradictory feelings. Bleh.

 

 

No WW will ever be ready to break NC. That is why NC is for life.

 

To be brief there is nothing that you need to hear the OM say or you to tell the OM.

 

Yes a WW can accidentally bump into the OM. The only thing to do is to act as if you did not see the OM, quickly turn around and leave.

[compulsivedancer]

No WW will ever be ready to break NC. That is why NC is for life.

 

To be brief there is nothing that you need to hear the OM say or you to tell the OM.

 

Yes a WW can accidentally bump into the OM. The only thing to do is to act as if you did not see the OM, quickly turn around and leave.

I want to not just be strong enough to do that, but to do it without thinking about it.

[harrybrown]

BTT, I imagine that a lot of this IS the way I portray things. I often post when I'm upset about an issue and mulling it over, rather than about the good stuff. Today, for instance was a wonderful day. Had a great morning, then we spent the day playing a board game with H's family and just plain had a good time, no A drama, no rehashing, just good times. Didn't think about it once.

 

H is a very intense person, and we think very differently. This can be a wonderful source of new ideas and we work very well as a team because we have such different perspectives. However, it means that we often clash about things. We have a tendency to have loud fights (in general, not A-specific) where we "put it all out there." We also have all-evening conversations about anything and everything.

 

The problem is, that often times he seems to be looking for some specific reassurance, and I can't find it exactly. And my personality requires a very exacting explanation sometimes, which sometimes makes me seem to be splitting hairs when I'm really just trying to be accurate and truthful. He also wants me to answer his questions from the gut, but a lot of the time, I need a few minutes to think through what he's asking. This makes him second-guess my answers.

 

Also, as LS people would probably agree from my posts, I am not harsh enough about OM, and this plays a big role in H's anger and frustration. He also has a lot more than typical anger about OM because he trusted OM as much (more?) than he trusted me, after a 15-year friendship. For him, OM's betrayal is just as strong as mine, or more. I've heard LS posters refer to our scenario as "double betrayal."

 

I was in the middle of typing a response out to your question Friday or Sat, and OM came in and confessed to me that he was struggling a lot more than usual, that he hadn't shown me the extent to which he was struggling. We are trying to buy the house that we are currently renting, and for him it is a pretty scary step because of the A, but it is a now or never thing as far as this house goes.

 

What do I want from our marriage? I want the marriage that we had before, but with the improvements we've made to it. I want to have the marriage that lasts a lifetime, that in 60 years, we will still look forward to our time together. I understand that the A won't go away, but I want the everyday pain of it to no longer be part of H's existence. I want him to be able to heal.

 

I want to have kids with him and to have him someday trust me again and enjoy life with me. I don't want to come home anymore to a sad, hurt, broken H. I want to be able to somehow make it up to him. I want to be able to prove to him that I have grown as a person and can be the wife that he needs me to be.

 

 

I get confused. You were typing and the OM came in? what was the OM doing there? Did you tell your husband that the OM was with you?

[compulsivedancer]

I get confused. You were typing and the OM came in? what was the OM doing there? Did you tell your husband that the OM was with you?

NO, crap. Mistype. H. H came in. Have not seen OM since DDay. I totally understand loveshack's policy on edits, but I wish I could go back and fix that one.

[BeholdtheMan]

All men are dogs, right?

Logically that would make all women b*tches.

 

You cheated on your husband, does that make all women wh*res?

[BeholdtheMan]

What man would want to stay with a wife that still thought of O/M the way you just thought of O/M?

Her husband is a doormat who doesn't have the balls to ditch her. Instead, he convinces himself that evil OM manipulated her into having sex with him and she keeps up the "I'm just a cluless gal" act

[BetrayedH]

I want to not just be strong enough to do that, but to do it without thinking about it.

 

Perhaps it's a matter of repetitively focusing on his negative traits. While he may not have been 100% dog, but there's plenty to dislike. He didn't have your best interests at heart if he would encourage you into such a betrayal and had no problem betraying his best friend. Those are good starters.

[road]

Logically that would make all women b*tches.

 

You cheated on your husband, does that make all women wh*res?

 

All men are dogs. I am a man.

 

Go some place else to hate she is trying to repair what she broke. Her BH can divorce her. He is staying because he does not want to leave her. People come her for help. You do not want to help find some place else.

[Betterthanthis13]

BTT, I imagine that a lot of this IS the way I portray things. I often post when I'm upset about an issue and mulling it over, rather than about the good stuff. Today, for instance was a wonderful day. Had a great morning, then we spent the day playing a board game with H's family and just plain had a good time, no A drama, no rehashing, just good times. Didn't think about it once.

 

H is a very intense person, and we think very differently. This can be a wonderful source of new ideas and we work very well as a team because we have such different perspectives. However, it means that we often clash about things. We have a tendency to have loud fights (in general, not A-specific) where we "put it all out there." We also have all-evening conversations about anything and everything.

 

The problem is, that often times he seems to be looking for some specific reassurance, and I can't find it exactly. And my personality requires a very exacting explanation sometimes, which sometimes makes me seem to be splitting hairs when I'm really just trying to be accurate and truthful. He also wants me to answer his questions from the gut, but a lot of the time, I need a few minutes to think through what he's asking. This makes him second-guess my answers.

 

Also, as LS people would probably agree from my posts, I am not harsh enough about OM, and this plays a big role in H's anger and frustration. He also has a lot more than typical anger about OM because he trusted OM as much (more?) than he trusted me, after a 15-year friendship. For him, OM's betrayal is just as strong as mine, or more. I've heard LS posters refer to our scenario as "double betrayal."

 

I was in the middle of typing a response out to your question Friday or Sat, and OM came in and confessed to me that he was struggling a lot more than usual, that he hadn't shown me the extent to which he was struggling. We are trying to buy the house that we are currently renting, and for him it is a pretty scary step because of the A, but it is a now or never thing as far as this house goes.

 

What do I want from our marriage? I want the marriage that we had before, but with the improvements we've made to it. I want to have the marriage that lasts a lifetime, that in 60 years, we will still look forward to our time together. I understand that the A won't go away, but I want the everyday pain of it to no longer be part of H's existence. I want him to be able to heal.

 

I want to have kids with him and to have him someday trust me again and enjoy life with me. I don't want to come home anymore to a sad, hurt, broken H. I want to be able to somehow make it up to him. I want to be able to prove to him that I have grown as a person and can be the wife that he needs me to be.

 

I've been preoccupied with my own nonsense and have been meaning to type a response here for awhile, there is something in this last post you made, that was an oversight or typo, that potentially has meaning.

 

I'm not trying to be cryptic, but re-read the post I just quoted and find what I am talking about.

[road]

Not all men are dogs. I am a man

 

 

Does every canine hump a persons leg? No.

 

Men are dogs.

 

They want to bang every hot woman they see.

 

Wanting to bang every hot woman they see is not the same as trying to bang them.

 

Does every dog have an affair? No.

 

We are all dogs.

[katielee]

this thread makes me want to switch teams....

[compulsivedancer]

I've been preoccupied with my own nonsense and have been meaning to type a response here for awhile, there is something in this last post you made, that was an oversight or typo, that potentially has meaning.

 

I'm not trying to be cryptic, but re-read the post I just quoted and find what I am talking about.

 

I think that I get a little lost with the acronyms sometimes and didn't re-read this post like I usually do (I usually have to correct a few errors in each post). Please don't read anything into my very unfortunate typo.

[worldgonewrong]

It seems - on the basis of this post - you're quite content with watching your H analyze it one way or the other.

 

What's lacking here is YOUR perception of the matter.

 

Affairs are not a victim-less crime. And, as it's set up here, you're not a victim either. Far from it.

 

Even pondering this, this philosophical garbage about men, is silly. It makes a woman out to be a thing, with no thought, no will, no action, no decision-making, no self-control of her own.

 

I was thinking today about my back and forth with H about OM. H is very invested in the idea that OM manipulated me and was just out for one thing and didn't care for me in the least in person, and that OM was only invested in our conversations when they were about sex.

 

It's so hard to tell whether he's right, or whether this his way of blameshifting from me to OM.

 

I don't really want to believe it. Some of that is because it hurts to think that I was just a prize to be one, some male game being played, etc, or that I was interchangeable in OM's mind with any other interested woman.

 

But today I was thinking about it and realized that I don't want to believe it because it darkens my worldview a little. I am a generally optimistic and hopeful woman (H would agree, but add naive). Even though I am fully capable of thinking of men in terms of meat, it shades my thoughts of men a little to think of them primarily as animals searching for a sex partner.

 

I'm not sure that there's a question in there. Maybe there is. Hopefully you guys can figure out better than me what I'm really asking.

 

Sorry for so many posts today. Got a lot on my mind. (besides, I've been posting kinda lightly lately, so I guess I have to make up for it, right!?)

[Betterthanthis13]

I think that I get a little lost with the acronyms sometimes and didn't re-read this post like I usually do (I usually have to correct a few errors in each post). Please don't read anything into my very unfortunate typo.

 

It was really late when I posted that last night, I just realized you already took flack for it. That was not my intention anyway... A typo is just a typo, an error. I have to edit my posts all the time. Mostly I post on LS from my phone... I really don't care about typos in general. I used to care a bit more, before the invention of texting. Now I'm so used to reading garbled nonsense from my teenage son I totally give up.

 

I am positive your typo wasn't some sort of Freudian slip on your part or anything like that.

 

My point is that some people abhor typos, and will read into them. Some people on LS have perfect grammar, spelling, nicely formed paragraphs, and all that in every single post. I have the capability to write like that if I want to, but I don't see the need for it in this format of communication. I'm not writing a book here. I want my spelling and grammar to be sufficient to not make people think I'm a complete moron, but other than that... meh, too much effort

 

For other people, I think their personality would NEVER let them adopt my attitude about typos and written communication in any format. There's actually an ongoing thread in the rants section on LS about annoying grammar mistakes. It's kind of funny. To ME. Other people get all worked up about this stuff. It makes me want to use the words there and their wrong on purpose in their threads. Lol. But that's me.

 

Actually the there/their thing is bothersome. I won't be doing that.

 

ANYWAY it's not that I'm reading into what your typo meant, it's that you have the capability of making typos in general. You are not a hall monitor of editing like some people are. This is no big deal 99.99999% of the time. Until you switch "OM" with "BS" in a post and all of a sudden people want to jump down your throat. Does that mean you should change your whole writing style and becoming very paranoid about typos? No, that is ridiculous. We are all here to talk and discuss things and hopefully learn stuff that will help us grow and be better, not analyze typos.

 

Do I have a point? Yes, I actually do. I almost forgot it from all this rambling but here we go.

 

In the post I quoted from you last night 2 things stuck out at me-

 

1. You said a lot of other posters feel like you don't "villianize" the OM enough. I get the impression that "villainizing" him is distasteful to you, that it doesn't fit with your personality in general. If that is true I can understand that. From reading your posts, I can't imagine you villainizing anyone, really.

 

2. You said your H dislikes that you need to reflect for a minute or two before answering questions, which is also just part of your personality and how you process questions before forming an answer. Nothing wrong with that either---

99.99999% of the time.

 

Kind of like typos? Not a big deal, except right now... maybe there is something you can show H in situations like this with some temporary (uncomfortable) changes? I am not sure exactly what those changes could be. I wouldn't even begin to know how to answer a question faster, without processing it first. That may not even be humanly possible. Maybe do the processing out loud? when the questions are related to reconciliation? Small, difficult efforts like that can go a long way to show sincerity.

 

H- "question blah blah blah "

 

CD (without pause) - "Ok, normally I would need a moment to answer that one but I'd like to try something new so bear with me.. I'm going to take you through my thought process out loud so you feel more comfortable with my answer."

 

 

Maybe not even these things specifically- im just using them as examples, i havent even fully read the other replies yet and im sure other posters have made suggestions regarding these particular things already.

 

The other thing I was thinking about was that awful eye contact comment H made last weekend... then I was thinking- maybe CD just has really pretty, sparkly bright eyes that people notice, it's just second nature to her and H sees them as a threat... We may have to operate and surgically remove them. Scalpel!

 

 

Ok that's my ramble for the day

[compulsivedancer]

2. You said your H dislikes that you need to reflect for a minute or two before answering questions, which is also just part of your personality and how you process questions before forming an answer. Nothing wrong with that either---

99.99999% of the time.

 

Kind of like typos? Not a big deal, except right now... maybe there is something you can show H in situations like this with some temporary (uncomfortable) changes? I am not sure exactly what those changes could be. I wouldn't even begin to know how to answer a question faster, without processing it first. That may not even be humanly possible. Maybe do the processing out loud? when the questions are related to reconciliation? Small, difficult efforts like that can go a long way to show sincerity.

 

H- "question blah blah blah "

 

CD (without pause) - "Ok, normally I would need a moment to answer that one but I'd like to try something new so bear with me.. I'm going to take you through my thought process out loud so you feel more comfortable with my answer."

 

That is actually kind of an awesome suggestion. H would love that. It fits in very well with his personality. The problem I have is that when I talk fast, I say stuff that I don't mean and haven't really thought through. It also makes me contradict myself.

 

So over the years I've learned to pause and take a moment to consider a question. However, this makes it sound like I'm trying to think of a PR response that will please H.

 

Your suggestion allows me to think it through and still answer the question quickly and sincerely. This means H gets to hear my thought process and understand why it takes me a few moments to answer.

 

The other thing I was thinking about was that awful eye contact comment H made last weekend... then I was thinking- maybe CD just has really pretty, sparkly bright eyes that people notice, it's just second nature to her and H sees them as a threat... We may have to operate and surgically remove them. Scalpel!

 

Lol. I do have beautiful eyes, but not gorgeous sparkly ones. I don't think anyone's ever done a double-take on them, or been unable to avoid meeting my eyes.

 

H explained to me later that what he meant was something closer to what one of the other posters on this thread suggested. He meant that he didn't want me to spend the whole hour or so in the same room with him flicking my eyes back and forth longingly. I think that's he's afraid I wouldn't TALK to him, but I'd be busy trying to send him smoke signals. Which might've been the case a few months back, but I think these days that wouldn't happen. Damnit, but I'm not sure I could avoid ONE look.

 

Btw, past/passed makes me crazy. So does autocorrect.

[compulsivedancer]

I'd say speak for yourself, but lets take your point. IF what you say is true, and we apply your logic, then all women are b*tches, dogs, whatever. Because all of them will salivate over a hot guy, but not all of them would cheat.

 

I'd say yes and no. When H talks about men being dogs, he is talking about the physical wiring of a man, the part of the man that makes him look at a woman and think sex. He is NOT talking about the ability to control that. Obviously, he has it much better under control than I do (but still considers himself a dog).

 

HOWEVER, I do NOT see sex when I look at a man most of the time.

 

I think that, historically at least, I've looked a bit more than the next woman. But even then, there are only certain things that make me salivate. Man with his shirt off wearing jeans, slightly oiled/sweaty chest, for instance. (That's a big requirement. Most men at a waterpark won't even turn my head!) It's very rare that I would pant like a bitch in heat over a man.

 

I tend to notice whether a man is good-looking or not, but there is so much more that goes into it than the physical aspect. For one thing, I'm usually looking primarily at his face, not his body.

 

In the case of the OM, even though our A was primarily sex, he was a decent-looking guy, but not someone that I would've stopped to look at on the street. I didn't look at him and have sexual thoughts. Actually, until we started talking about sex, I never daydreamed about anything beyond kissing him, except in an abstract sense.

 

So while my actions were more doglike than H, my internal dialogue is something altogether different. That doesn't make my actions any better.

 

What I'm trying to understand, actually, is whether all men have these thoughts and some are better controlled than others, or whether only SOME men have these thoughts, which is why they are better controlled than others.

 

I'm not looking at a comparison of men and women. All men could be dogs AND all women could be dogs, but the answer to the initial question would still be "yes." Conversely, maybe neither are dogs, and the answer is "no." Hey, maybe it's even the opposite of popular opinion: women are dogs, men aren't. Then the answer is still "no."

 

Anyhow, hope that helps clarify what I didn't manage to clarify in the first 8 pages of this thread! (Not that anyone will find this buried this deep, unless they are following the whole post. Oh well.)

[Zenstudent]

I don't think of myself as hardwired to drool by the sight of a decent looking female. I stopped in my early twenties shortly after I my wife and I became a couple. Not that I couldn't acknowledge a beautifull girl/woman, but I didn't think must.have.sex.now.

 

What I can tell you is, that it has changed radically since my wifes infidelity, which leads me to believe that there is more to it than just hardwiring. It could also relate to boundaries and what you allow yourself to think/imagine/fantasize as well as how much you value your primary relationship.

 

I have absolutely no scientific evidence to support this, it's just something I wondered when I felt my own emotional responses post infidelity.

[compulsivedancer]

I don't think of myself as hardwired to drool by the sight of a decent looking female. I stopped in my early twenties shortly after I my wife and I became a couple. Not that I couldn't acknowledge a beautifull girl/woman, but I didn't think must.have.sex.now.

 

What I can tell you is, that it has changed radically since my wifes infidelity, which leads me to believe that there is more to it than just hardwiring. It could also relate to boundaries and what you allow yourself to think/imagine/fantasize as well as how much you value your primary relationship.

 

I have absolutely no scientific evidence to support this, it's just something I wondered when I felt my own emotional responses post infidelity.

 

Thanks! I think this might be the first response to this 9-page-long thread that actually speaks to the question I might have been trying to ask. Guess that's what happens when you clarify what you actually MEAN rather than what you just plain SAID.

Edited September 12, 2013 by a LoveShack.org Moderator

[Betterthanthis13]

Btw, past/passed makes me crazy. So does autocorrect.

 

My inner grammar nazi is bubbling at the surface. your/you're... would of could of should of... ohhhhhhhhh

 

OK I'm done.

[Betterthanthis13]

I'd say yes and no. When H talks about men being dogs, he is talking about the physical wiring of a man, the part of the man that makes him look at a woman and think sex. He is NOT talking about the ability to control that. Obviously, he has it much better under control than I do (but still considers himself a dog).

 

HOWEVER, I do NOT see sex when I look at a man most of the time.

 

I think that, historically at least, I've looked a bit more than the next woman. But even then, there are only certain things that make me salivate. Man with his shirt off wearing jeans, slightly oiled/sweaty chest, for instance. (That's a big requirement. Most men at a waterpark won't even turn my head!) It's very rare that I would pant like a bitch in heat over a man.

 

I tend to notice whether a man is good-looking or not, but there is so much more that goes into it than the physical aspect. For one thing, I'm usually looking primarily at his face, not his body.

 

In the case of the OM, even though our A was primarily sex, he was a decent-looking guy, but not someone that I would've stopped to look at on the street. I didn't look at him and have sexual thoughts. Actually, until we started talking about sex, I never daydreamed about anything beyond kissing him, except in an abstract sense.

 

So while my actions were more doglike than H, my internal dialogue is something altogether different. That doesn't make my actions any better.

 

What I'm trying to understand, actually, is whether all men have these thoughts and some are better controlled than others, or whether only SOME men have these thoughts, which is why they are better controlled than others.

 

I'm not looking at a comparison of men and women. All men could be dogs AND all women could be dogs, but the answer to the initial question would still be "yes." Conversely, maybe neither are dogs, and the answer is "no." Hey, maybe it's even the opposite of popular opinion: women are dogs, men aren't. Then the answer is still "no."

 

Anyhow, hope that helps clarify what I didn't manage to clarify in the first 8 pages of this thread! (Not that anyone will find this buried this deep, unless they are following the whole post. Oh well.)

 

My answer: "No".

 

I followed all the logic.

[KathyM]

SOME men are dogs who think with their penis, rather than their brain, and allow themselves to be controlled by their impulses, sometimes causing terrible consequences for themselves and others. Fortunately, there are also many wonderful men who have good character and good values and who treat women with respect and who value women and treat them right. Why women put up with the dogs is beyond me.