All men are dogs, right?

[road]

I'm a man who has never cheated on my wife of 18 years so I hate to say that men are dogs.

 

But here's a way you can address your own question. Take a good hard look at how much time, money, energy, emotional investment etc etc that a man will put into a woman/women that he is NOT the least bit interested in sexually (excluding close female relatives )

 

The answer = not much to none at all.

 

So basically if you aren't a close blood relative and a man is spending his time, energy, money and emotional investments on you (or at least making it look like he is), he is interested sexually and is at least hoping to go there.

 

 

So true.

 

 

TV networks have shown it under the guise of news. Where they have a woman that is a 10 dressed nice, struggling with a little bit with not that much luggage an men are falling over each other to offer their help.

 

Then they have a woman on her best day never going to be a 5. With double the luggage definitely struggling and usually does not even get one guy to give her a hand.

[road]

Is your husband a dog?

 

If a woman cheats is she always a cheater?

 

Both my wives cheated on me (1st was PA, second was leftover EA) - are all women cheaters, users, and not to be trusted?. Myself, and maybe a few other BH's might have concerns.

 

Only you can decide after time and perspective what OM was about.

 

After much therapy my wife finally said to me "OM/MG was worm who used me" to which I responded "Great, you finally get that ! .....and YOU used him as well". To which she responded like a deer in the headlights. When I said that I didn't necessarily mean sex with OM/MG (but they both did) but that she used him to feed an unhealthy need in herself. They used each other - for their own selfish needs. Sex, esteem, fake words, loss, what ever.....

 

 

Yes you are a dog because you find other woman that you would like to bang. You do not have to give in to your impulses but you still lust. Hence you are a dog.

 

Woman that cheated was a cheater.

 

Will she cheat again?

 

Odds are better that she will because future behavior is based on past behavior.

[Journee]

Coming to LS actually has improved my thoughts about men. I really have no hope in humanity as far as loyalty. It just seems to not be a priority. After coming here and reading about the betrayed husband's ,I see that isn't true. There are men out there that would not even think of being unfaithful and even when their wife may take a wrong turn , the BH still wants to work things out. If all these stories are true then I still have hope. Just a little. After experiencing an actual cheating , humping dog for my entire adult life.... if I had a faithful husband you could bet your bippy I would forsake all others until my body was cold and in the ground.

 

I have to watch myself in letting this place color my thoughts about women though. I have less faith in women now than I did before coming here.

 

I don't think all men are dogs. I think they are human and make mistakes but I no longer believe they will all cheat.

[HopingAgain]

Coming to LS actually has improved my thoughts about men. I really have no hope in humanity as far as loyalty. It just seems to not be a priority. After coming here and reading about the betrayed husband's ,I see that isn't true. There are men out there that would not even think of being unfaithful and even when their wife may take a wrong turn , the BH still wants to work things out. If all these stories are true then I still have hope. Just a little. After experiencing an actual cheating , humping dog for my entire adult life.... if I had a faithful husband you could bet your bippy I would forsake all others until my body was cold and in the ground.

 

I have to watch myself in letting this place color my thoughts about women though. I have less faith in women now than I did before coming here.

 

I don't think all men are dogs. I think they are human and make mistakes but I no longer believe they will all cheat.

 

I agree with you here. As bleak as my perspective is on relationships now, I do find a lot of encouragement from the good faithful men here who do not and have not cheated.v

[Betterthanthis13]

I was thinking today about my back and forth with H about OM. H is very invested in the idea that OM manipulated me and was just out for one thing and didn't care for me in the least in person, and that OM was only invested in our conversations when they were about sex.

 

It's so hard to tell whether he's right, or whether this his way of blameshifting from me to OM.

 

I don't really want to believe it. Some of that is because it hurts to think that I was just a prize to be one, some male game being played, etc, or that I was interchangeable in OM's mind with any other interested woman.

 

But today I was thinking about it and realized that I don't want to believe it because it darkens my worldview a little. I am a generally optimistic and hopeful woman (H would agree, but add naive). Even though I am fully capable of thinking of men in terms of meat, it shades my thoughts of men a little to think of them primarily as animals searching for a sex partner.

 

I'm not sure that there's a question in there. Maybe there is. Hopefully you guys can figure out better than me what I'm really asking.

 

Sorry for so many posts today. Got a lot on my mind. (besides, I've been posting kinda lightly lately, so I guess I have to make up for it, right!?)

 

Blameshifting definitely, i think. Could be a little cognitive dissonance and self preservation type thinking. He might just want to convince himself of this for the moment so he is saying it out loud. Whether it is factual or not isn't really relevant to him for the purpose of temporarily soothing his own ego.

I was convinced gym girl was an evil, manipulative sociopath for a little while. Errr... She probably is not. Her and xbf actually were friends. Ish. It was just my brain trying to protect itself--- no, actually trying to protect him. Yes, it's a little bit convoluted... Here's the thought process as I experienced it:

 

I'm so hurt and so mad at WS. How could they do this?!

That AP... What a slimy POS. what is wrong with them?!

Ok let me focus on THAT for awhile. What IS wrong with them? (Make stuff up, exaggerate, imagination, mind movies etc)

Wow! I figured it out! AP is a (whatever) WS must not have seen all this! How could they miss it? I better let them know. I'll bet they didn't realize they were being manipulated into cheating on me. That must be it.

 

Yes---- it's completely absurd. I know if my brain can do that, then anyone's can. I know full well xbf was manipulated into nothing. Please. But... My thoughts still went there at one point. This is embarrassing but I went so far as to print out a description of sociopathic behavior and read it to him saying, "see? Duh! She's a sociopath!" Ugh... Lol

 

I don't know what you are supposed to do to counteract that type of thinking- maybe just ignore it? but I'd guess that is what H is experiencing right now. I think it's just temporary.

[Toddbt12y1]

All cheating wives are dogs, right?

 

Shhh...don't speak such evil. This is loveshack, and they are watching....

[compulsivedancer]

Is your husband a dog?

 

Actually, according to him, he is. He's just a dog that wants to hump legs but chooses not to because of his commitment to me.

 

He tells me things about men and "their" thought processes, and instead of turning me against OM, it makes me a bit disgusted that he is that way too. I don't want to think of him or any man (except maybe the gross ones) that way.

 

I'm sorry if this thread is similar to other ones I've posted about OM. Oldshirt is right. I just want to know if he ever considered me a friend at all, or if he was out to sleep with me the whole time. But I can't ask him, so I can only speculate based on what I know and what others have to say about him. It's very frustrating. I thought I didn't care any more, but knowing how easy it would be to go see him Sunday without ever even having to interact with him (I'm not going to, but it's definitely crossed my mind to just go take a look) has me revisiting all of these thoughts.

[2.50 a gallon]

cd

 

I have read your first thread. Your H is on track, without a doubt the OM manipulated you.

 

How do I know? Been there and done that. I have posted before how after I caught my Ex cheating I slipped over to the dark side and began pursuing MW.

 

The very first step in seducing a MW is to become her friend. A trusted male friend she can open up to. Once you have reached that level, the next step is to get her to start talking about her personal life, with her H, especially their sex life.

 

Because, if you listen, she will tell you how to seduce her. It is as simple as that.

 

Who else knew that your H and you were considering opening up your marriage?

 

As for all men are dogs.

 

I sure did not start out that way. In fact, as I was exiting my high school days, I discovered that I had the soul of a poet. That only lasted a few years as it did not get me laid. I had to force myself to kill the poet within me. Being a bad boy player got me lots of pussy.

 

As for pursuing MW, up until I was 36, MW were taboo, totally off the menu. That is until I caught the Ex cheating, and had a revenge affair with one of the OM's wives. That is when I found out MW were an easy source of wild exciting sex. Also some of them involved sexual conquest, which made it all that much more exciting. Truthfully some of the sexual encounters were the most erotic nights I have ever had. And being a player, I have had lots of them to compare them with.

 

Call if blame shifting if you want.

 

For me it was simple cause and affect.

 

My Ex doesn't cheat, I don't screw the next door neighbors wife.

[dichotomy]

I have mentioned elsewhere - and I would suggest you might enjoy reading it - a recent book called "What do Women Want? The science of female desire" which basically uses recent research to say that women are worse dogs then men - but have only been held back (until recently) by social norms and punishment from acting out their nature.

Edited August 31, 2013 by dichotomy

[Nyla]

I grew up in a culture where men proudly cheated and had babies outside of their marriages. I also experienced a great deal of abuse and manipulation from men when I was sheltered girl in my early twenties. Consequently, I don't think that most men can be trusted. I know there are men who do not cheat but I think those are few and far between.

 

As far as I know, my husband has never cheated on me but I wouldn't put it past him. I think any woman who completely trusts men is naïve and ridiculous.

 

Your husband is trying to rationalize your infidelity by blaming your OM. He doesn't want to believe that his wife simply chose to be unfaithful.

[Coolit]

 

The very first step in seducing a MW is to become her friend. A trusted male friend she can open up to. Once you have reached that level, the next step is to get her to start talking about her personal life, with her H, especially their sex life.

 

Because, if you listen, she will tell you how to seduce her. It is as simple as that.

 

You kinda made me shiver a bit. Because that is exactly what xMM did. Now, I knew from the start he was interested. And I knowingly went along. But those are the things he did that progressed the relationship. Like some sort of text book approach.

 

My part was going along each step and rarely saying "no". And when I did say no he just kept pursuading me (ie sending naughty photos).

[Betterthanthis13]

I have mentioned elsewhere - and I would suggest you might enjoy reading it - a recent book called "What do Women Want? The science of female desire" which basically uses recent research to say that women are worse dogs then men - but have only been held back (until recently) by social norms and punishment from acting out their nature.

 

I havent read that book but it sounds interesting. I already think any person male or female has the potential to be a "dog" (since that's the term we are going with in this thread, I wouldn't normally say it that way) under the right circumstances.

 

In CD's case, I don't know... I don't see how it would be any good for her to change her positive outlook on men to one of suspicion and thinking they are all dogs, that just seems kind of depressing and unnecessary

 

I just think the OM was a poor choice of friend. Doesn't mean he's a predator or a bad human being in general. Just because he wanted to have sex with her doesn't mean he didn't avtually like her. She's a very likable person, why wouldn't he like her and enjoy her company?

 

OTOH, a real, true friend should have your best interests at heart--- he couldn't have had her best interests at heart if he was encouraging her to commit adultery.

 

I don't know. I just don't like the all men are dogs idea.

[Betterthanthis13]

cd

 

I have read your first thread. Your H is on track, without a doubt the OM manipulated you.

 

How do I know? Been there and done that. I have posted before how after I caught my Ex cheating I slipped over to the dark side and began pursuing MW.

 

The very first step in seducing a MW is to become her friend. A trusted male friend she can open up to. Once you have reached that level, the next step is to get her to start talking about her personal life, with her H, especially their sex life.

 

Because, if you listen, she will tell you how to seduce her. It is as simple as that.

 

Who else knew that your H and you were considering opening up your marriage?

 

As for all men are dogs.

 

I sure did not start out that way. In fact, as I was exiting my high school days, I discovered that I had the soul of a poet. That only lasted a few years as it did not get me laid. I had to force myself to kill the poet within me. Being a bad boy player got me lots of pussy.

 

As for pursuing MW, up until I was 36, MW were taboo, totally off the menu. That is until I caught the Ex cheating, and had a revenge affair with one of the OM's wives. That is when I found out MW were an easy source of wild exciting sex. Also some of them involved sexual conquest, which made it all that much more exciting. Truthfully some of the sexual encounters were the most erotic nights I have ever had. And being a player, I have had lots of them to compare them with.

 

Call if blame shifting if you want.

 

For me it was simple cause and affect.

 

My Ex doesn't cheat, I don't screw the next door neighbors wife.

 

Did doing that type of stuff ever affect you? If it did, how?

[Lamron]

You have never seen dogs in heat.

 

You never had a dog try to hump your leg.

 

You have not experienced either one.

 

 

Strangely "confident/assertive" statement...

Edited September 1, 2013 by Lamron

[Woggle]

I really get tired of this attitude that men are all cheaters. Men and women are actually pretty even on this but somehow men get the bad rap.

[compulsivedancer]

cd

 

I have read your first thread. Your H is on track, without a doubt the OM manipulated you.

 

How do I know? Been there and done that. I have posted before how after I caught my Ex cheating I slipped over to the dark side and began pursuing MW.

 

The very first step in seducing a MW is to become her friend. A trusted male friend she can open up to. Once you have reached that level, the next step is to get her to start talking about her personal life, with her H, especially their sex life.

 

Because, if you listen, she will tell you how to seduce her. It is as simple as that.

 

Who else knew that your H and you were considering opening up your marriage? We have talked about it at an earlier point in our relationship, and mentioned it to several people then, but not this time around. At some point, we discussed it with a friend that had been mentioned as a possible partner for him. But I'm guessing your point is that he was the FIRST person to know, that I gave him the opening he was looking for.

 

As for all men are dogs.

 

I sure did not start out that way. In fact, as I was exiting my high school days, I discovered that I had the soul of a poet. That only lasted a few years as it did not get me laid. I had to force myself to kill the poet within me. Being a bad boy player got me lots of pussy.

 

As for pursuing MW, up until I was 36, MW were taboo, totally off the menu. That is until I caught the Ex cheating, and had a revenge affair with one of the OM's wives. That is when I found out MW were an easy source of wild exciting sex. Also some of them involved sexual conquest, which made it all that much more exciting. Truthfully some of the sexual encounters were the most erotic nights I have ever had. And being a player, I have had lots of them to compare them with. Do you still go after married women?

 

Call if blame shifting if you want.

 

For me it was simple cause and affect.

 

My Ex doesn't cheat, I don't screw the next door neighbors wife.

 

2.50, It's odd that somehow your post was strangely comforting. It should make me feel worse. Were you actually a friend to any of these women, or was it JUST sex?

 

One thing that's strange is that OM was not a player. I am only the second woman he's slept with. He's kind of a quiet, awkward, not-so-confident guy, but that's part of what allowed me to let down my walls with him. I thought I saw his vulnerabilities and that made me want to know him better; I found it endearing. I trusted him.

 

And yet, he is a very horny guy. Verging on sex addict. He's obsessed. I think he spends much of his time when he's not with his GF watching porn. He seems to like intelligent women (I'm basing this on him being with me and his GF. We are both educated women who can converse on a deeper level), and yet when he sees women, he seems to see them primarily as sex objects.

 

Toward the end of things, on the one hand he would say that he was enjoying experiencing the emotional stuff that was starting to creep in, yet at the same time I got the feeling that things were starting to wind down because he was uncomfortable that I was starting to get more demanding emotionally.

 

I miss him, and I just don't want to miss him anymore. I just wish he would stop intruding on our life.

[compulsivedancer]

I have mentioned elsewhere - and I would suggest you might enjoy reading it - a recent book called "What do Women Want? The science of female desire" which basically uses recent research to say that women are worse dogs then men - but have only been held back (until recently) by social norms and punishment from acting out their nature.

 

I'll take a look at it; it sounds interesting. You know, H has never seemed to me to be a "dog." He doesn't just look at what important to himself, to us, to family, but also what's important and good for society. That's one of the most disconcerting things about all of this. I am seeing a side of him that I've never seen before. The side of him that is barely kept in check by his wish to build things up instead of destroying them.

 

But for some reason, he wants me to know that men are dogs. I think that for him it's about making sure I'm not naive enough to fall into this trap again.

[BetrayedH]

I was thinking today about my back and forth with H about OM. H is very invested in the idea that OM manipulated me and was just out for one thing and didn't care for me in the least in person, and that OM was only invested in our conversations when they were about sex.

 

It's so hard to tell whether he's right, or whether this his way of blameshifting from me to OM.

 

I don't really want to believe it. Some of that is because it hurts to think that I was just a prize to be one, some male game being played, etc, or that I was interchangeable in OM's mind with any other interested woman.

 

But today I was thinking about it and realized that I don't want to believe it because it darkens my worldview a little. I am a generally optimistic and hopeful woman (H would agree, but add naive). Even though I am fully capable of thinking of men in terms of meat, it shades my thoughts of men a little to think of them primarily as animals searching for a sex partner.

 

I'm not sure that there's a question in there. Maybe there is. Hopefully you guys can figure out better than me what I'm really asking.

 

Sorry for so many posts today. Got a lot on my mind. (besides, I've been posting kinda lightly lately, so I guess I have to make up for it, right!?)

 

I haven't read the whole thread so forgive me if I am duplicating what others may have said.

 

If I recall correctly, your AP was your H's best friend. If that's the case, his opinion is probably that he knows him better than you do. And he could be right.

 

I think you also have to seriously consider that you are going to be very resistant to the idea that you were just a lay for the OM. Clearly you had a desire for external validation and there's nothing validating about just being a target for a penis. Admitting that you were just a lay would invalidate all of that validation. If you were so needy for validation that you went to these lengths, you're going to be resistant to giving it up. You might even be more susceptible to needing validation now because it's natural to feel like absolute crap about yourself as an admitted wayward. As a comparison, look how many OW just cannot admit to themselves that they're being used and future-faked. It goes on for years. No matter what, it's not an easy thing to admit.

 

It's also possible that your H is just hell-bent on this idea because he wants to see you as the hapless victim of a predator; that's a bit easier to forgive. It's also easier to accept than having to admit that you two shared an emotional connection. As well, he's not going to like the idea of you romanticizing the affair. That threatens his safety. He would feel more secure if you viewed the OM has a predator and someone to be hated. Your H most certainly doesn't have a rosy outlook on the man. Your H could also simply be wrong; we BSs don't have a corner on the market when it comes to being right.

 

Regardless, I think you can rest assured that you're very unlikely to sway your H's opinion. As you say, he's deeply invested in it.

 

As for you, I'm not so sure that it matters. I think you can acknowledge that you'll probably never know the OMs innermost thoughts and you don't need to. What you do need to acknowledge is that the OM is a poison. He put you, your marriage, and your stability as secondary to his own desires. He helped you betray his best friend. He's not a nice guy. He did you no favors. And I think the key is to ensure your H that the OM will NEVER be a threat to him or your M ever again. Whether he loved you or not, he was toxic and you're indifferent to what he did or didn't think about you (because he is now irrelevant). This is a healthy view to have and one that grants the much needed safety and security to your H.

 

Personally, I think the truth is likely to be somewhere inbetween. He probably cared for you but like most of these guys, he didn't care about you enough. He cared about himself more.

 

I certainly don't think all men are dogs. Of course, it could be argued that I'm a little biased.

[compulsivedancer]

I And I think the key is to ensure your H that the OM will NEVER be a threat to him or your M ever again.

 

He told me yesterday that he was not really worried any more that I would "go back to him." I didn't even realize he was concerned that I would continue the affair.

 

I guess there's something there. Some part of me wants to see OM so much, and I'm definitely still wanting the validation I got from him. And OM is a weak guy. If there was an opportunity for sex and I wanted it, he would probably not be able to turn me down, no matter what kind of external forces he had. Obviously this is why NC is so important.

 

I asked H why he was so angry at OM now, but not as much early on. He said that early on there was still a possibility that he could be friends with OM. That if things didn't work out with me, that they could still have one of those "guy friendships." It sounds like in some ways, he figured he could keep one of us (or neither), but not both, and he was trying to figure out which one of us it'd be.

 

Oh what a complicated thing affairs are. I should post that in Coolit's thread, the one about things I didn't know going into an affair. Before the A, I never thought about any other guy this way. There was never anyone else competing for my attention, even just that mental attention. It's exhausting. I'm ready for that thing in Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind, where they just erase it all. But I'm afraid if they do, it'll take all the lessons I've learned with it, and I'll be back at the beginning, where it all started.

[aliveagain]

There must be something in the water in Missouri. What man would want to be friends with O/M if things didn't work out for you and O/M? What man would want to stay with a wife that still thought of O/M the way you just thought of O/M? What you just stated doesn't want to register in my brain and I'm a pretty smart guy. Don't you want some kind of normalcy in your life? I think you still have one too many people in your marriage. I guess I should ask, do you have an open marriage?

[compulsivedancer]

There must be something in the water in Missouri. What man would want to be friends with O/M if things didn't work out for you and O/M? If things didn't work out between me and H.What man would want to stay with a wife that still thought of O/M the way you just thought of O/M? Hell if I know. I wish I could STOP thinking about him. What you just stated doesn't want to register in my brain and I'm a pretty smart guy. Don't you want some kind of normalcy in your life? If only I could find that. I think you still have one too many people in your marriage. I agree. I guess I should ask, do you have an open marriage? Nope. We talked about it in the beginning, that's what got this all started. But instead, A.

 

Most days I don't think much about OM. Well, it varies. Today I'm struggling.

[2.50 a gallon]

cd

 

Many of the details how I shifted into MW were recently posted in the thread about BS's turning into OM's.

 

Mostly they were co-workers. I was looking for ways to keep my mind busy, and not obsessing on the Ex, I had some dear hobbies, but I also saw this as a time to try hobbies I had thought about but never tried. Example on of my partners was deeply into orchid growing, I found that interesting, had never thought about it, so she invited me over to her place to see her set up and some of the results, and helped me in my beginner days, with some young easy to grow plants. I failed.

 

Another was deeply into keep rare and hard to breed tropical fish, I had had a large tank most of my single life. I had seen photos of a type of fish called "killie" fish, some of which are almost as colorful as marine fish, but alas I had never been able to buy any. She was able to put me in touch with some local breeders, who learned me and it is still a part of my life today.

 

It was only these two that I had begun down the path towards friendship.

 

All of my other partners, it was just for the sex.

 

Later, when I realized what I had stumbled on the playbook on how to seduce married women, I turned my attention to the wives of the EX's co-workers, who were also members of the EST like self realization group

 

One of their pillars was the idea that nothing happened to you that you did not want to happen. So to them my Ex cheating on my was something that I wanted.

 

I guess at least three of them wanted their wives to cheat on them also. It was great throwing that in their face. I made sure they found out.

Edited September 1, 2013 by 2.50 a gallon

[2.50 a gallon]

Double Post

Edited September 1, 2013 by 2.50 a gallon

[2.50 a gallon]

Your description of the OM: quiet, awkward, not-so-confident, watcher of porn

 

Have you ever considered, that with you as a sex partner, at last he was able to star in his own personal porn show? He gets to fulfill his fantasy of being the stud that seduces a married woman.

[2.50 a gallon]

Perhaps the reason that you are still going back and forth with the OM in your mind, is that your body is still producing love chemicals for him. It takes awhile before your body burns them all off. If you did not use protection, the chances are that they will be all that much more stronger, and every time you think of him, you body jolts your brain with more.

 

That is why no contact is so very important, should you meet in person you would be right back to page one with your withdrawal symptoms

 

I did not know about love chemicals when I was having trysts with my MW. I was caught of guard how quickly they began to develop an emotional attachment with me.