Fair is fair

[DustinTheWind85]

I am currently engaged to a woman I have been with for 7 years. About 6 months into the relationship, she told me that she had only been with 3 guys and had never had an orgasm before me. I was seriously naive to believe the second part because she came easily and a lot every session (with barely even having to put out any effort on my part, just so that you know I'm not trying to brag).

 

The following are my feelings on this. Everyone is different, and this is just how I am. I feel that it is important to not have a large amount of partners before marriage. It gets things messy and uncomfortable. If I want to bang a bunch of chicks, then I can live the single life and have fun. But if I want to get married, then I can have a few partners along the way while I'm searching (because you can't guarantee that even a ltr will last) but I should keep the numbers single digit. A lot of people don't think this way, and I get that and respect it. It's just a part of what makes me, me and you, you.

 

So, now that we have been together so long, she has spilled the truth (silly, silly, naive me..). Turns out the number is 15 (that she told me about anyway..). She even banged a guy the night before she met me and our relationship started. We had just turned 20 when we met, so that's a huge number for her age in my opinion. She basically jumped from guy to guy, and I'm just the 16th (or 50th?) guy she landed on.

 

On the contrary, sex isn't as important to her (oh really, wonder why?), but marriage still is. But I have decided that if I can't have something that was important to me because she lied to me and tricked me into loving her and being with her for 7 years, then she doesn't get what she wants either. She will be my perma-girlfriend for life, I will never marry her. She is stuck to me like glue, and won't leave even if I won't marry her. This devastates her, but I was devastated when the truth came out. Fair is fair, right?

[DustinTheWind85]

Even after writing it I know I can't go through with it. I guess I'm just going through an anger phase. It feels like she cheated almost, because after so long I suddenly find out about a dozen previous lovers. Has anyone else ever experienced anything like this?

[Ariany]

Hi there, DustinTheWind85.

 

I agree that you must be having an "anger phase" as you put it. I understand you must feel hurt and betrayed that she kept this a secret from you for so long. However, I think you have to at least commend her for having the courage to finally tell you the truth. Would you have rather spent the rest of your life in blissful ignorance? In my humble opinion, what you must think about is this - do you think that this newly-revealed secret about her past outweighs the seven years of love you two have together? Does it really make her any less of the woman you love? I strongly caution you against doing anything vindictive, you will live to regret it and she will resent you for life. It's really not "fair is fair", it sounds more like a formula for bitterness. Do have a long and hard think about it, perhaps take some time to calm yourself down.

 

Best of luck to you.

[DustinTheWind85]

Yeah, I realized I'm bitter about it. I agree that it doesn't change the relationship really. I guess, as I calm down about it a bit, the biggest shock was that she could keep this secret for so long. We've always ensured each other that we want an open and honest relationship, but even while saying that she was holding back possibly painful information. I just need to wrap my head around it.

 

The vindictive thoughts are behind me. I think just writing about it, and my silly revenge fantasy, was enough to overcome that hurdle. Now I just need to come to terms with the rest of it.

[KungFuJoe]

Get over it or break up with her.

 

She lied because guys like you exist. Doesn't make what she did right, but doesn't change the fact that if she had told you the truth initially, you would have judged her harshly for it.

 

So does it even matter?

[loosingtheloveofmyli]

I see it this way, yes it may be a big lie to you but for most people its is the norm these days, weather you like it or not. The most inportant think is do you love her and does she love you. take some time think about it. Also wright ten things that you love about her and ask her to do the same for you.

 

Looks like you just need some time to cool down. Trust me, love her for who she is and not what she has done in the past before she met you.

[DustinTheWind85]

Get over it or break up with her.

 

She lied because guys like you exist. Doesn't make what she did right, but doesn't change the fact that if she had told you the truth initially, you would have judged her harshly for it.

 

So does it even matter?

 

Firstly, that is a rather narrow view of my options and not very good advice.

 

Secondly, you are correct in that she was protecting herself from being judged by me, but you should also consider the fact that you should not have to hide something from someone to be with them, as a relationship is supposed to be an open and safe environment. Had she not lied, I doubt I would have even thought about it much. Most of my anguish comes from the fact that the truth didn't come out until much later which makes it feel like it happened recently and not in the past.

 

Thirdly, saying "guys like you" is pretty silly when you have read a few words that I typed into a keyboard and assume that you know who I am as a person, my intentions, my past actions, my future actions, etc. Rather than scream at my Fiance, or actually follow through with my thoughts, I brought it to a site where I could freely voice my resentment and feelings of retaliation, and am coming to a more adult conclusion about it. "Guys like you" describes you, more than it does me.

[Ariany]

Yeah, I realized I'm bitter about it. I agree that it doesn't change the relationship really. I guess, as I calm down about it a bit, the biggest shock was that she could keep this secret for so long. We've always ensured each other that we want an open and honest relationship, but even while saying that she was holding back possibly painful information. I just need to wrap my head around it.

 

The vindictive thoughts are behind me. I think just writing about it, and my silly revenge fantasy, was enough to overcome that hurdle. Now I just need to come to terms with the rest of it.

 

Good to hear, and glad you got that out of you. It's much better that you've written about it instead of doing something rash. It does hurt very much when the one you love can keep a secret from you. Of course, you do have to think about it from her perspective too. Yes, she's wrong for lying but the reason behind that is likely that she knew how you felt about the subject. She must have felt scared that you'd judge her and she'll lose you forever. At least you know that now she feels secure enough in your love that she can reveal her past to you. It will probably take time to come to terms with it as you say - but simply saying that shows that you are open to it.

[It-is-what-it-is.]

Dustin,

 

Glad you worked through it. But I do think it should show you that committed relationships take work and occasionally real issues have to be addressed.

 

Talk it out. Especially the lying. That nugget of lie will eat at you.

 

Best best of luck.

 

IIWII

[oldshirt]

This devastates her, but I was devastated when the truth came out. Fair is fair, right?

 

Your feelings are you feelings and you can't help but be hurt that you were lied to and manipulated. That her deception hurt and anger you is fair.

 

If you are doing this to hurt her and inflict pain upon her is not fair.

[oldshirt]

Now as to the underlying issues at hand, this is pretty messy. It may or may not be able to be reconciled but it will take work and clean up either way.

 

You were basically sold a used car with a lot of miles that had been rode hard and were told that it was like new and had only been driven to church by an old lady on Sunday mornings. If this had happened in the business world people would be valid in claiming fraud and voiding any contracts or agreements.

 

This isn't business though, it's personal. And therefor you are going to have to do some soul-searching and determine if this is something you can reconcile and live with or not.

 

If being with someone who hasn't been around the block is important to you and you can't shake the feeling she defrauded you and manipulated you and used you, you probably are better off to amicably break it off and move on.

 

If on the other hand you sincerely feel that you can get past this and that your time together has been real and has been sincere and that in the end her past really doesn't matter that much, then you need to strive to get past the hurt and past the judgement and pick up the pieces and move on with your relationship. That may require some professional counseling to achieve and it will take work and effort on both of your parts.

 

What you really don't have the right to do though is to mistreat her or to inflict inflict pain or insecurity or disdain onto her though.

 

While I cannot condone her dishonesty and agree that there is grounds for hurt and anger here and I wouldn't blame you for ending the relationship, you haven't given any indication that she has ever mistreated you or cheated on you or treated you badly since you started dating.

 

It's tough choice and a tough situation to be in.

[oldshirt]

(Sidebar note that is not specifically aimed at this particular case) This is exactly why people should not EVER have the "numbers" talk.

 

You can never win the numbers talk and it will always result in some kind of anguish and conflict.

 

If you say one person too few people will judge you as lame or a fake, if you say one person too many you will be thought of as slutty or indiscriminate or as a player. Even though they technically shouldn't, people can't help themselves but to judge. we all make 1000 judgements a day.

 

Discussing numbers can only lead to second-guessing and issues, it can never lead to anything positive.

 

If virginity is a value and deal-breaker to one or both people then disclosure of virginity/nonvirginity status is valid but specific numbers need not be discussed.

 

If health and STD issues are a concern people can get tested.

 

 

It is important to discuss value systems and mores and what is expected of sexuality within the relationship but discussion of prior numbers and prior experiences and practices can only lead to angst. If people are generally ok with somewhat casual sex or are only ok with sex within a committed relationship that will usually come out in open discussions about sexual values and mores and such.

 

The problem with discussing numbers is people want to hear a number and then make a snap-judgement based on the number where as having frank and open discussions on values and mores and attitudes are a lot more work.

 

Curiosity is normal but what people do in the privacy of their bedroom and who they do it with and how many are private matters that should be kept private.

 

If Dustin's fiancé had just said she was not a virgin and had some prior experiences and had a period of her life where she had some casual encounters but was now wanting to pursue a more meaningful and exclusive relationship and had not lied about numbers and hadn't tried to present herself as something she wasn't, he may have had a few reservations but would probably have been able to have moved past it and delt with it.

 

But now seven years later as the truth is coming out and the lies are being uncovered, he has legitimate grounds to feel defrauded and to question whether continuing the relationship.

 

These are always sad situations.

[Keenly]

She didn't cheat on you. Get that thought out of your head.

 

 

 

If she had told you the truth, you never would have married her. If you love her, accept her for who she is, because without those previous life experiences, she would not be the person she is today.

 

Move forward together and use this honesty to become closer.

[KathyM]

15 partners by age 20 is a pretty high number, as you know. Most women, even by today's standards, have had only a small handful of sexual encounters before marriage if marriage is in their 20s. I would be concerned not only about her morals or lack of self control, but also about the deception to you all of these years. She lied about something that was very important to you, and about which you made major decisions and invested a huge portion (5 years) of your life to. I think both of these things is a concern that would make for a shaky start to a marriage. To tell you to just get over it is not, IMO, helpful, because these are important issues. The deception shows that she is willing to lie to you about important things if she thinks it will serve her purposes, and the difference in moral beliefs about sex is also potentially going to be an issue later on in the relationship if she took it so casually at that time. If you are not on the same page about that, then you are not a match, and it would probably be best if you moved on. You have every right to want someone who has been more selective in who she is willing to give her body to. Don't allow people to shame you into thinking you should be OK with this (the permiscuity and deception), or that it's not an issue. It IS an issue. But only you can decide if it is something that will be a dealbreaker for you.

[oldshirt]

She didn't cheat on you. Get that thought out of your head.

 

 

 

If she had told you the truth, you never would have married her. If you love her, accept her for who she is, because without those previous life experiences, she would not be the person she is today.

 

Move forward together and use this honesty to become closer.

 

All a lot easier said than done.

 

First off he hasn't said a word about her cheating or that he is afraid that she will cheat or that that thought is even in his head so cheating isn't an issue.

 

The issue is that he probably would NOT have dated her and considered marrying her and getting engaged to her etc if he had known about her past. She probably knew that as well and instead of being forthcoming about her sexuality she presented herself as something she wasn't.

 

He has legit cause to be upset and to question the future of their relationship.

 

The role of sexuality in a relationship is a very deep and personal core value and no one can tell him to just accept something that goes against his core values. If this is something that offends his sensabilities, this isn't just something that he can turn off and on.

 

If some gal was dating a man who told her he had never hurt anyone and would never harm a woman and she found out years later that he had in fact beaten several women and was a registered sex offender would you advise her to get over and it and get it out of her head and to move forward and use this honesty to become closer????

 

Or would you be advising her to cut her losses and get out of Dodge?

[oldshirt]

Your fiancee is ashamed of her sexual past. She perceived herself to be indiscriminately promiscuous at the time you got together with her. So, she lied to you. Meaning she also lacked any respect for you. And she wanted to present herself as something she was not.

 

Now, she thinks she has you hooked and reeled in, that she gets a mulligan for the lies and lack of respect.

 

Someone said it's not as if she cheated on you.

 

Unfortunately, you have no way of knowing. What you do know is that a woman who will lie about her promiscuous sexual past is very capable of cheating and will be in the future after you marry her and she feels "safe."

 

Dump her. Now.

 

 

 

No. She lied because she was promiscuous, ashamed of it, lacked respect for her partner, and is a liar. If she didn't want to be with a guy that she KNEW or suspected regarded her level of promiscuity and honesty as "important," she was free not to have gotten involved with him.

 

 

 

Most likely she did cheat on him at some point in the five year relationship. That's precisely what lying, promiscuous young women who lack respect for their partners do. They cheat. And you're correct--if she'd told the truth, they wouldn't be together . Now she's told the truth--or part of it anyway.

 

Five years is a long, long LONG time to lie.

 

I wonder what other lies she is hiding?

 

There's nothing to indicate anything about cheating at this point and just because someone had a lot of hook ups in their youth doesn't mean that they are a cheater or more likely to cheat.

 

....but that's the problem, when you find out someone was intentionally lying and deceiving you for years you don't know what they have done or are capable of.

 

It's something that can't be ruled out and a little more investigation may be in order.

[Keenly]

He has also said he doesn't trust her (could be 15 or "50"). With good reason.

 

The how many partners discussion didn't come up until six months into the relationship. That's probably when she perceived it as getting "serious." She went out of her way to lie to him to string him along when at the six months point she realized he didn't want someone with a promiscuous past.

 

Anyone here who thinks she wasn't banging every guy she could get her hands on, certainly during the first six months, is denying reality. As to the rest of the five years, who knows?

 

Also, another bad sign is her now saying "sex isn't important to me, marriage is." That's what women say when they view the husband material as sexually unappealing and then use that as an excuse to cut down the sex after the wedding ceremony. In her mind she's giving him "fair warning" not to expect a very good sex life after marriage--"But I TOLD YOU SEX WASN'T IMPORTANT TO ME!!!!"

 

Dump this lying slut YESTERDAY. The more you find out about what she's been hiding, the more sickening that gigantic lump in your stomach is going to feel. And it isn't ever going to end.

 

She REALLY conned this guy. He couldn't even read any of the telltale signs about her promiscuity without her having to spell it out for him.

 

This is bad bad news. I would also wonder why she decided NOW to tell him. Usually that indicates she had a "slip up" and it probably means she had a recent affair and had a case of the guilts about it so by finally coming clean about the past stuff she can soothe her conscious a bit.

 

 

You are really running with this one aren't you.

 

1 lie does not = a dozen lies.

[oldshirt]

.

 

Now, she thinks she has you hooked and reeled in, that she gets a mulligan for the lies and lack of respect.

 

 

 

As harsh as that is to hear, it is also probably the way it is.

 

She knew he wouldn't have her at the start if he had known about her past so she lied and covered it up.

 

she was willing to hide her past and move forward with someone she knew wouldn't be accepting of her past and put her past behind her and started living a new life.

 

OK I can see why she did that even if it was a little on the dishonest side. So the question that needs to be asked is why is she coming clean now years later? Why isn't she taking it to her grave?

 

Remember this is coming from the same guy that just got done saying to keep private matters private. Why is she blabbing about her past now?

 

Some may say she is wanting to be honest now so he can choose if he still wants to move forward or not.

 

But my money is going on that she wants the "Mulligan" and is telling him now 7 years later after he is invested and has strong feelings for her in hopes that he will take her, slutty past and all and once he moved forward knowing her past, then he can't come back and hold it against her as new info comes out.

[oldshirt]

.

 

On the contrary, sex isn't as important to her (oh really, wonder why?), but marriage still is.

 

OK game-changer here. I missed this sentence the first time I read the post. It is a significant detail and an important piece that I missed the first time. My bad.

 

This is going to sting a bit but your hunches are correct. She is wanting a nice, stable, supportive man who will accept her and support her and give her a nice stable and secure home life. But it's the jocks and playa's and the party boys that make her jay-jay tingle.

 

These studs she was banging in her youth were the ones that made her hot but they wouldn't take her on fulltime because they saw her as slutty.

 

That's why she decided to dress up in sheep's clothing and change her ways and look for a 'nice guy TM".

 

Here's where the problem is going to lay. if you marry her and have kids with her, in ten years you are going to be writing in to these forums moaning and groaning that you haven't had sex in the last year and that your wife won't touch you or have anything to do with you physically and now you've noticed that she is txting and Facebooking with this guy at work blah blah blah.

 

This is very real. She chose you because you were the nice, naive safe guy that her mother and grandmother liked and treats her with dignity and accepted her despite her past (which she intentionally lied about and hid from you)

 

In other words, she valued sex, just not with you

 

Now In her defense, I am sure she does like and even love you and she probably is sincere in wanting to be with you. You are just the 16th (that we know of) choice in who she wants to have sex with.

 

Sorry man. You got duped on this one and sold a bad bill of sale.

 

Change my vote from 'maybe' to let this one go.

[oldshirt]

Unfortunately what oldshirt said.

 

And the problem with that type of woman is they seem to find it impossible to ever view their nice guy type of husband material as sexually exciting. They have two mutually exclusive categories in their minds and you can either be the sexually exciting sex partner or the boring nice husband type.

 

Women like that tend to have their own version of a male madonna/whore complex. I don't even know if it says that much about what their husband is really like, it's how they look at relationships with men.

 

These are the same women who just can't be sexually open with their spouses but when they cheat they will do any nasty thing with their affair partner, stuff that they would never do with their husbands.

 

This woman here has all the ear markings of being that kind of wife after marriage.

 

Unfortunately all true.

[oldshirt]

Again, I want to reemphasize that I am not trying to slut-shame or knock someone for having some normal fun and youthful exploration and adventure.

 

What is at issue here is the dichotomy and contradictions and deceptions.

 

If Dustin's GF had been upfront that she had some casual adventures and that she was a bit of a free spirit and liked to have some fun but that she also had aspirations of eventually settling down and having a healthy LTR/marriage etc, he may or may not have been OK with that and things could have progressed or ended naturally.

 

He wasn't given that choice though and in a way neither was she. If she had been honest about herself and her sexuality, she could have found a nice, decent guy that was also a little more adventurous and accepting but was still somewhat relationship oriented. And Dustin would have been able to have moved on and found someone who was more conservative and valued relationship sexuality more.

 

As it was, this gal disquised herself and targeted a man that was more conservative and more relationship-oriented and more sexually restrictive than herself because she was growing wearing of being rode hard and hung up wet and was herself uncomfortable (or dare I say "ashamed") of her prior sexual exploits and lied to his face about and continued the deceptions for multiple years.

 

So now he is with woman he can't trust or respect because she defrauded him about her true sexuality and she is with a man that she does not desire or feel passionate about sexually.

 

It is a disservice and disappointment to both of them.

 

The issue here isn't that she screwed 15 guys (that she is admitting to. That may not even begin to count all the guys she swapped spit with or blew or jerked off) The issue is that she lied about her core values and mores and fraudulently sold herself as something she was not to a man who she was not fundamentally compatable with in the first place.

 

This is all very sad and did not need to happen

[CptSaveAho]

Get over it or break up with her.

 

She lied because guys like you exist. Doesn't make what she did right, but doesn't change the fact that if she had told you the truth initially, you would have judged her harshly for it.

 

So does it even matter?

 

Judged her harshly?

 

She slept with how many guys before 20?

 

Shes ruined... no person in their right mind would date a girl thats banged out 20 + guys before they are 21

 

Only morons do this

 

 

1 lie does not = a dozen lies.

 

Yes it does, you are a total moron to believe this

 

Only people that say this are the ones that are good at lying to themselves

[smoky eyes]

Seriously, guys.

 

Ok, 15 before 20 is kind of a lot and could be considered a "wild youth;" on the other hand she's now been with her current partner 7 years. She's ready to settle down... what do a bunch of men getting on for a decade ago have to do with that?

 

I'm ready to settle down myself. It doesn't mean I'm not attracted to my bf, it means I AM attracted to him and want to be with him... and in OP's partner's case, that decision is contextualized with a lot of experience.

 

Sorry she lied, OP. That sucks. But to me it's pretty clear she wants to be with you now, and that you're finally there at that "open and honest" relationship.

[dichotomy]

Even after writing it I know I can't go through with it. I guess I'm just going through an anger phase. It feels like she cheated almost, because after so long I suddenly find out about a dozen previous lovers. Has anyone else ever experienced anything like this?

 

Well good to get your anger out ....and yes I have.

 

Lets get beyond numbers and focus on other things for a second you need to before making a decision on ending, or continuing.

 

1) Honesty. Why cant she be herself and be known to you? What can't you accept. Who is she now and then?

 

2) Shared Beliefs. What do you and she believe about sex and relationships? you ever just had sex with some gal (ONS, or short time)? (no double standards please) What about honesty and about cheating (what does she consider cheating). How does she feel about her past current and future life styles?

 

3) Has she kept in contact with any of these men - have you met (knowingly) any of them? In person, at work, online like Facebook or texts or emails. Establish rule and boundaries you need. An easy way to say this is "I would consider it cheating and grounds for ending this relationship if you were still in contact without me knowing". Also if she has GF's who know you do not know - time to discuss this. Honesty, openness.

 

4) Does she treat you right (part of #3 is this).

 

5) How is your sex life - is she giving and passionate after all these years - does she want to please you like no other. Are you "da man" in the bedroom for her?

 

and more. Time for lots of conversations.

Edited September 1, 2013 by dichotomy

[Tayla]

Silly silly I know but here it goes.

 

We do not get the luxury of holding our loved ones hostage

Its clear the OP is of the mind set that I find troubling....If someone keeps bringing up someones past regressions, the relationship will NOT flourish. Its pouring old spite on a wound. I recommend that the OP stop throwing stones and start fresh and accept that the person he supposedly "loves" UNCONDITIONALLY be granted the right to make mistakes, the right to change in life and the right to be treated with respect. Unless one is a saint we each as humans have skeletons in our closets ... No one is above errors or near perfection.