Is cheating is always wrong, but when is it forgivable?

[James-London]

Hi Everyone,

 

I have posted on here recently about whether I should leave my cheating girlfriend. Almost everyone said it was clearly over. In brief, I had been with this girl since last summer. Things were rocky for most of that time, but in the last 2 or 3 months things were finally going really well. Unfortunately, 2 weeks ago I found out that she slept with a guy 3 times in early December 2012. She has since stayed friends with this guy and she claims that they have not slept together since. She says she is sorry and could never hurt me again, especially now we have become so close in the last 2 months.

 

I do not know if I have the whole truth (she probably slept with him before and after December too), but I have made my decision: I HAVE ALREADY DUMPED THIS GIRL. This post is more about whether cheating is always unforgivable no matter the circumstances?

 

For example, I cheated on a girl once when I was 23 (9 years ago now). I felt like my girlfriend at the time didn’t really care about me, and this hot girl showed me some interest. What I did was selfish, but it was motivated by feeling lonely and unappreciated. I was still in love with my girlfriend at the time. So, am I an evil person forever? I learnt from that experience and have not cheated since.

 

In the case of my ex-girlfriend she was clearly into this other guy for much of our relationship, but he could not offer anything more than friendship and casual sex. Who knows if she really wanted a relationship with him and had to settle for me, or whether she wanted me more but just felt very lonely and abandoned? Obviously, it is still wrong either way. But my question is - does that make any difference as to whether you can forgive?

 

A separate issue is – how can you ever trust them again? The old “once a cheat always a cheat”. On the one hand, I understand that forgiving may be seen as condoning the cheating and giving her permission to do it again (only being more careful not to get caught). On the other hand, what if the cheating made her realise how much she did love you and how truly sorry she was? Nobody knows the future. Would it be right to throw away a possible happy and faithful future relationship just because of the one time she broke your trust and humiliated you? I can see merit in both sides here….

 

It would be good to see some comments here both from people who have cheated and people who have been cheated on. I guess I fall into both categories.

 

Look forward to your thoughts!

[BetrayedH]

Cheating is always wrong. And it is one of the most difficult things to forgive because the one person that was supposed to have your back was the one stabbing you in it.

 

I think reconciling after cheating takes two things: (1) A truly remorseful wayward partner and (2) A truly forgiving betrayed partner. Rest assured that (2) cannot come before (1). And both of these are really tall orders.

 

But I do believe that people can make mistakes (my apologies to those that don't like that particular term) and that their mistakes do not have to define them. In my view, we all make mistakes. Some are obviously more horrendous ones than others. But it's how we handle our mistakes that makes the most difference to me; that's what defines a person over the longer term.

 

For someone that is truly remorseful (a technical term, in my view), yes, I do believe they can be forgiven. It can take a betrayed person a long time to figure out if they're dealing with a wayward that is truly remorseful. Many waywards feign remorse and stay because of obligation or fear of the consequences/exposure. They are simply in damage control mode. It can take years to figure out which scenario you're dealing with.

 

I don't blame anyone for not having the patience for all that. For those that had years invested in the relationship and children hang in the balance, I give credit to those that make the attempt.

 

But again, it all starts with the wayward expressing true remorse. And then it takes consistent actions over time. And then the onus is on the betrayed person to find if they have forgiveness in their heart.

Edited August 28, 2013 by BetrayedH

[Philosoraptor]

Cheating is never acceptable. Making a second chance work depends on the situation. But it always comes down to can you fully forgive and let go, and also trust this person again? If you can do both, a second chance can be successful.

 

But just because you forgive them doesn't mean that the rest of your world will. Parents, family, friends, etc. may be judgemental and cause further issues. They may judge your ex, or you as a person for taking them back.

[dichotomy]

My belief system requires I forgive everyone, because I need forgiveness as well from time to time. Not always easy to do – especially when it seems you need to keep forgiving again and again -or worse yet the person does not think they need or want your forgiveness. I fail at this sometimes. Actually I sometimes think it is easier to forgive, when you move on from someone who hurt you.

 

Forgiveness however as nothing to do with condoning, approving, acceptance, staying with that person, forgetting it, not asking for justice or repayment, or allowing yourself to continue to be hurt, and more.

 

As for trust – I trust everyone on this planet is flawed in one way or another, and has their own weakness, including me. This is part of my reasons for forgiving. We can argue over how flawed one is, what our weakness is, compared to another (example mine are small theirs are big:rolleyes:), and whether we will choose to accept or live with that person – learn and deal with it – or not - and move on.

 

Want to learn how to forgive - have kids, and wait for teen time.

[James-London]

Thanks everyone. In my situation, I am still trying to rationalise her behaviour and find ways of having her back 2.5 weeks after I found all this out. My heart really wants to forgive her because I still love her, but maybe it is also because I do not have many people in this world.

 

Her behaviour is as follows:

 

a) she says she is sorry. But she is hardly begging my forgiveness. She still thinks that my behaviour of not spending enough time with her due to my work problems partly condones her cheating. Although she does recognise it was wrong of her.

 

b) she has remained friends with him since December. She said she would break contact with him for me, but why did she not do this herself before I found all this out?

 

c) She says she is still attracted to this guy, but would not cheat if we built a real relationship together. She feels that our relationship was weak last year because we hardly saw each other.

 

d) She is not focused on telling me all the information I need to know about her actions to make me understand it better. Sometimes I feels she is holding back information, probably because she is worried about losing me.

 

I totally agree that forgiveness requires genuine remorse and regret.... But I still think she is far from that. Sometimes it is like she has ADD and cannot concentrate on one topic for more than half an hour.... all of this is disappointing because I really want to forgive her. :-(

[Coolit]

My husban forgave me. And i believe it was based on this situation.

 

1. I confessed by choice with no fear of exposure.

2. I told him the truth. All of it. So nothing is gonna junp out an surprise him. That takes out trickle truth.

3. This was the only time I have ever done such a thing. I have never ven behaved close to like I did.

4. My husband is very confident. He also is loving. This was my get out of Jail free card. I even so much as toy the fidelity line, we are over. (btw, it hasn't been easy. I in no way see my affair as a momentary lapse in judgement that has been brushed off)

 

Every situation is different. Different people and circumstances. As a FWS I am all for forgiving and second chances. But only if the circumstances are right (as BH outlined).

 

And like we said on your post... You can forgive her without taking her back. It just means you wish her well in her journey and don't hope for any revenge. That is why forgiving is healthy if you can because if you are waiting for revenge tou are keeping her in your mind.

[Coolit]

Thanks everyone. In my situation, I am still trying to rationalise her behaviour and find ways of having her back 2.5 weeks after I found all this out. My heart really wants to forgive her because I still love her, but maybe it is also because I do not have many people in this world.

 

Her behaviour is as follows:

 

a) she says she is sorry. But she is hardly begging my forgiveness. She still thinks that my behaviour of not spending enough time with her due to my work problems partly condones her cheating. Although she does recognise it was wrong of her.

She is blame shifting. Trying to spread the guilt around. A better story would be she wasn't ready to commit and now she is. Not trying to say it is partly your fault

b) she has remained friends with him since December. She said she would break contact with him for me, but why did she not do this herself before I found all this out?

I ha xMM blocked and deleted out of my phone and fb before I confessed. Because I was done with him. Basically, she wasn't/isn't done and wants him on the hook. Someone to play with if she gets bored? Or perhaps a backup plan.

c) She says she is still attracted to this guy, but would not cheat if we built a real relationship together. She feels that our relationship was weak last year because we hardly saw each other.

You guys are dating... DATING! She may notice other guys. You don't go blind. But attracted to him AND basically sayin she'll only cut him off if you want? That means she is not committed to you. She doesn't know what she wants. And if you want an exclusive dating relaionship... He is not the girl for you. Don't settle!

d) She is not focused on telling me all the information I need to know about her actions to make me understand it better. Sometimes I feels she is holding back information, probably because she is worried about losing me.

you may never fully believe what she says again. Are you prepared for a lifelong R like that?

 

I totally agree that forgiveness requires genuine remorse and regret.... But I still think she is far from that. Sometimes it is like she has ADD and cannot concentrate on one topic for more than half an hour.... all of this is disappointing because I really want to forgive her. :-(

 

Forgiveness requires nothing. You can work on forgiving someone without them being sorry. But, a healthy relationship requires true repentance and forgiveness.

 

You really want to give her a second chance. If you really are going to give her one then you will. But please, lay down rules with her, realize that she may cheat again, and prepare yourself for a very rough ride

[Philosoraptor]

Thanks everyone. In my situation, I am still trying to rationalise her behaviour and find ways of having her back 2.5 weeks after I found all this out. My heart really wants to forgive her because I still love her, but maybe it is also because I do not have many people in this world.

 

Her behaviour is as follows:

 

a) she says she is sorry. But she is hardly begging my forgiveness. She still thinks that my behaviour of not spending enough time with her due to my work problems partly condones her cheating. Although she does recognise it was wrong of her.

 

b) she has remained friends with him since December. She said she would break contact with him for me, but why did she not do this herself before I found all this out?

 

c) She says she is still attracted to this guy, but would not cheat if we built a real relationship together. She feels that our relationship was weak last year because we hardly saw each other.

 

d) She is not focused on telling me all the information I need to know about her actions to make me understand it better. Sometimes I feels she is holding back information, probably because she is worried about losing me.

 

I totally agree that forgiveness requires genuine remorse and regret.... But I still think she is far from that. Sometimes it is like she has ADD and cannot concentrate on one topic for more than half an hour.... all of this is disappointing because I really want to forgive her. :-(

She's not only ratonializing her cheating, but also keeps in contact with this guy.

 

Read back at what you wrote here and ask yourself at what point you went out of your mind.

[BetrayedH]

Thanks everyone. In my situation, I am still trying to rationalise her behaviour and find ways of having her back 2.5 weeks after I found all this out. My heart really wants to forgive her because I still love her, but maybe it is also because I do not have many people in this world.

 

Her behaviour is as follows:

 

a) she says she is sorry. But she is hardly begging my forgiveness. She still thinks that my behaviour of not spending enough time with her due to my work problems partly condones her cheating. Although she does recognise it was wrong of her.

 

b) she has remained friends with him since December. She said she would break contact with him for me, but why did she not do this herself before I found all this out?

 

c) She says she is still attracted to this guy, but would not cheat if we built a real relationship together. She feels that our relationship was weak last year because we hardly saw each other.

 

d) She is not focused on telling me all the information I need to know about her actions to make me understand it better. Sometimes I feels she is holding back information, probably because she is worried about losing me.

 

I totally agree that forgiveness requires genuine remorse and regret.... But I still think she is far from that. Sometimes it is like she has ADD and cannot concentrate on one topic for more than half an hour.... all of this is disappointing because I really want to forgive her. :-(

 

Any one of these four things you listed demonstrate that she's not truly remorseful. The combination of them seals the deal. I particularly liked Coolit's individual replies to each.

 

She is still blameshifting. She has not proactively come completely clean with you. She is still maintaining contact with him. And she expects you to affair-proof her by making sure she's always 110% happy.

 

Screw that. She's got it backwards.

[oldshirt]

My heart really wants to forgive her because I still love her, but maybe it is also because I do not have many people in this world.

(

 

 

I hate to play junior shrink and try to psychoanalyze you but this is so glaring a blind man can see it.

 

You are accepting being mistreated, disrespected and manipulated because you feel this is your one shot at love and that if you lose her you will not be able to find another. (this is called "oneitis.")

 

You have all your eggs in one basket, only this basket is rotten at the base and you see it as your only basket so you are trying to hold it together with bubble gum, bailing wire and duct tape.

 

You are settling for someone that mistreats you, cheats on you, lies to you, manipulates you and disrespects you because you see this as better than not having anyone at all.

 

You see women and love from a perspective of scarcity and so you treasure and hold on to this one special snowflake.

 

She knows this is how you feel and that is why she feels entitled to be able to do it. You treat her like a prize to hold on to even though she mistreats you and she feels she is doing you a favor by being with you at all even though she is blatantly cheating on you and lying to you.

 

Getting over this feeling about yourself and about your ability to relate to other people needs to be your primary focus #2. (focus #1 needs to be getting rid of her and getting back out there)

 

You need to work on yourself so that you gain better interpersonal skills and increase your market value so that you can access a better market share of the interpersonal and dating market.

 

Once you begin to see women everywhere, you begin to see that they are abundant and not scarce. Once you see abundance, then you will not tolerate being mistreated and will drop them butt-cold when they mistreat you. When you no longer tolerate being mistreated and they know you will dump them when they mistreat you......they will no longer mistreat you.

 

When you cure your oneitis, everything else will fall into place.

[James-London]

Thanks Coolit. It is useful to see how you dealt with it differently than she did. I can see she is a million miles away from me being forgiven. I can also see how she is keeping the OM in her back pocket by staying in touch, which is totally unacceptable.

 

I know she cannot be trusted. I am just finding it hard to let go, I guess.

[BetrayedH]

For me, letting go was (and perhaps still is) difficult because it's like a final judgment that I wasn't good enough. When that judgment comes from someone we love and care about, it cuts to the core and damages the ego.

 

I think part of the key is to continue to remind yourself that this is really something more fundamentally wrong with HER and much less a reflection of you. She can't keep the commitments that she makes. The reality is that she is probably just not mature enough yet for a committed relationship.

 

Personally, I'm glad you resigned from the role of being her backup plan while she tries to find herself. The big problem is that role tends to become a permanent one. Ironically, she won't respect you for giving her what she wants.

[road]

Thanks everyone. In my situation, I am still trying to rationalise her behaviour and find ways of having her back 2.5 weeks after I found all this out. My heart really wants to forgive her because I still love her, but maybe it is also because I do not have many people in this world.

 

Her behaviour is as follows:

 

a) she says she is sorry. But she is hardly begging my forgiveness. She still thinks that my behaviour of not spending enough time with her due to my work problems partly condones her cheating. Although she does recognise it was wrong of her.

 

b) she has remained friends with him since December. She said she would break contact with him for me, but why did she not do this herself before I found all this out?

 

c) She says she is still attracted to this guy, but would not cheat if we built a real relationship together. She feels that our relationship was weak last year because we hardly saw each other.

 

d) She is not focused on telling me all the information I need to know about her actions to make me understand it better. Sometimes I feels she is holding back information, probably because she is worried about losing me.

 

I totally agree that forgiveness requires genuine remorse and regret.... But I still think she is far from that. Sometimes it is like she has ADD and cannot concentrate on one topic for more than half an hour.... all of this is disappointing because I really want to forgive her. :-(

 

 

 

 

 

 

STOP YOU ARE MAKING ME PUKE.

 

Dating is the job interview for marriage. She failed. You do not marry her. You dump her. Countless stories from BH's that married there WGF only for her to become their WW. Forgive her, though she stays dumped. Forgiving does not mean you have to stay together.

 

There is no one that will advise a young person, short marriage, no kids, no financial entanglements to not divorce his WW.

 

Start all the threads you want the truth will not change.

[jnel921]

I am a BS spouse who has dealt with infidelity in two marriages. I believe forgiveness can only happen depending on the response of the WS. In the first marriage because we were younger and my H at the time had no other sexual experiences other than me decided he wanted to be with Other women. It didn't matter that We had a 1 year old son and I was 4 months along with our daughter. He never admitted to an A and blamed me to his family that we had communication issues. He was a liar, disrespectful and honestly I cannot say how happy I am that we did not ever try to R as he was a selfish jerk and still is to this day making the same bad choices and is now divorced a second time for the same reasons.

 

My second H was different. He made a really bad choice and was remorseful. However he did not give me the truth himself. The OW contacted me and in her nasty way told me lies, tried to insult me and make herself more important than she was. My H had nothing good to say about her and has told me on many occasions how he wished he could go back in time. How terribly sorry he is for the hurt and pain that he still knows I go through. He sometimes sees me sitting deep in thought and. He will come over and tell me that he loves me so much and will hug me until he sees a smile.

 

He still cries about it. It has been over a year since he he slept with that witch.

 

So if your GF is still playing games, chances are she always will. If you forgive that behavior I doubt she will change. If she still had the friendship and was doing all of this all this time then what was her intent if not to hurt and disrespect you? Obviously there is something this guy cannot provide which is why she clings to you.

 

I agree with coolit, if you are confident and knows that you would drop her in a hot minute I doubt she would be this way.

 

My H knows better and he knows my option to leave is always open. I can forgive him, but I will never forget.

[oldshirt]

 

Dating is the job interview for marriage. She failed. You do not marry her. You dump her. Countless stories from BH's that married there WGF only for her to become their WW. Forgive her, though she stays dumped. Forgiving does not mean you have to stay together.

 

THIS ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ A MILLION TIMES OVER!!!!!!!!

 

Yes you liked her and she felt good up against you but she failed the interview.

 

 

Try not to hold a grudge and let it taint your next relationship. If she contacts you again (which she will when she wants some support and strokes and some boost to her ego) wish her well and tell her it was nice to get to know and wish her the best.

 

And then move on.

[drifter777]

Thanks Coolit. It is useful to see how you dealt with it differently than she did. I can see she is a million miles away from me being forgiven. I can also see how she is keeping the OM in her back pocket by staying in touch, which is totally unacceptable.

 

I know she cannot be trusted. I am just finding it hard to let go, I guess.

"finding it hard to let her go" - this is not love, it's fear. It's your fear of being alone, of accepting the shame that goes along with knowing your girl cheated. That shakes the core of who you are and you ask yourself those hard, hard questions like "does this make me unlovable? Does this mean my deepest fears that I'm worthless are true?" You may have other or different fears that you beat yourself up with but my point is the same: you want to forgive her to make everything ok again. The urge to right your emotional ship is overwhelming and you look at the chance to get things back to "normal" like a life-raft in your sea of despair. Just say no to your fear. Find a counselor right now and tell him/her the story and that you need help making a decision that is not based on your fear of abandonment and being alone.

 

What you really need is to improve your self-esteem and confidence. Dumping this girl, the one who cheats on you, blames you, and keeps in contact with (one) of her fu(k buddies, is a first step in reclaiming some of your self-respect. You would be taking a stand that says "I refuse to be treated like dirt; I deserve better". This is a powerful first step and I urge you to do it and get into IC as soon as possible. You have to address your issues or you will just get into the same ugly situation with your next girl. You are seeking out cruel, lying cheaters that will validate your deepest insecurities. That's what people with self-esteem issues do if they don't get help to understand why and begin healing their emotional wounds.

[James-London]

Hey guys,

Thanks for your thoughts on this. I do have a quick query and would grateful for your advice on...

 

Right now she is abroad (she went home for 10 days), and she will be back in a few days. Part of me really wants her to fight for me, to beg for forgiveness etc. If she does, I have a feeling I might crumble!!

 

So, here is my question for you..... if she does not contact me, then I will leave it. I think that would be fairly simple. However, if she does contact me, I REALLY want to know if she slept with him before and/or after those 3 times in December. If she did, then I cannot see any possibility of speaking to her again. If she denies it, then I will ask to check her telephone records.

 

I don't think she would have been able cheat without a text or call at the same time... If all this checks out then this means that she could have cheated many more times but chose not to. Does that not say something about whether I can trust her? I know she is still attracted to him, but no more contact would mean she chose to stop on her own volition.... does that not say something important about my ability to trust her?

 

Throughout the relationship, she was fairly passive about our problems. Her big thing was to complain when she didn't get enough attention.... I think the only way forward if for her to really start to fight for me, for us. And to show me how important I am to her.

 

I'm a bit sceptical that would happen.... but does that make sense? Or is nothing she could do ever going to be enough? Thanks for your thoughts.

[drifter777]

Do you really think you can verify every form of electronic communication she could use to contact this guy? Really? You sound so desperate it makes me sad. If you are magically able to patch things up with her for the moment, I guarantee that you will never feel the way you felt about her before and never trust her.

 

Your primary motivation is still fear and insecurity. You are looking for a way to "forgive" her because you are afraid of not having her with you. It's likely that in your mind you are only remembering the good things about your time with her, and you are probably blowing all of that out of proportion as well. Don't torture yourself now with feelings of love that you never had for her when you were together. Grow up, move on.

[James-London]

Hey there,

I would not wish to monitor all her communication going forwards. I was just thinking that if her phone records indicate she has not cheated since the OM came back in March this year, then this would suggest she may be trustworthy. After all, she had his number over the last 5 months and there were a few rocky patches between us over that time. I think if she really wanted to cheat again, she would have.

 

If her records suggested lots of contact she could not explain, that would be the end of it. But if she came up clean, I would have to make a judgment about trying to trust her again or not. I would not wish to monitor all her records going forwards - that is not practical for me.

 

Having said all this, if she does not either admit to infidelities this year or show me her records soon, I will have my answer anyway. If she really wants me AND has nothing to hide, I'm sure she would show me her records.

[Zenstudent]

Hey there,

I would not wish to monitor all her communication going forwards. I was just thinking that if her phone records indicate she has not cheated since the OM came back in March this year, then this would suggest she may be trustworthy. What if her FB-history which has been deleted, suggested it? What if Chat-histories suggested it? You can't verify it all. After all, she had his number over the last 5 months and there were a few rocky patches between us over that time. I think if she really wanted to cheat again, she would have. Is 5 months clean sheet (no pun intended) enough for you decide she is trustworthy after she blatantly hooked up right in front of you and then lied??

 

If her records suggested lots of contact she could not explain, that would be the end of it. But if she came up clean, I would have to make a judgment about trying to trust her again or not. I would not wish to monitor all her records going forwards - that is not practical for me.

 

Having said all this, if she does not either admit to infidelities this year or show me her records soon, I will have my answer anyway. If she really wants me AND has nothing to hide, I'm sure she would show me her records.

James, as others have said, you are looking for excuses, rationalizations, validation for you taking her back. Don't do that to yourself. It's OK if you wanna be with her, but do it with your eyes open and know what kind of person she is.

[James-London]

I have already checked her facebook and email accounts when all of this kicked off on 10 August. It all checked out. I don't care if she has been with him since then because we have not been together.

 

I think there is always a doubt after any period of time without getting caught. But 5 months of being faithful is a good guide to trustworthiness? I don't think she could arrange a meet-up without texting/calling him to organise.... She has been unhappy with me and has remained attracted to him over these 5 months, so the motivations are all there. I would give it a 60-70% chance she has cheated this year.

 

i know its still possible she could cheat in the future even if i don't find anything, but that is always going to be true of all couples... finally, if i got involved with her again, i would be watching her like a hawk. Not sure that would be worth it, as other people have commented already.... i know i maybe looking for excuses etc. it would just be such a shame if this girl was actually faithful going forwards, but could never get to that because of something she did in December 2012.

[It-is-what-it-is.]

I have already checked her facebook and email accounts when all of this kicked off on 10 August. It all checked out. I don't care if she has been with him since then because we have not been together.

 

I think there is always a doubt after any period of time without getting caught. But 5 months of being faithful is a good guide to trustworthiness? I don't think she could arrange a meet-up without texting/calling him to organise.... She has been unhappy with me and has remained attracted to him over these 5 months, so the motivations are all there. I would give it a 60-70% chance she has cheated this year.

 

i know its still possible she could cheat in the future even if i don't find anything, but that is always going to be true of all couples... finally, if i got involved with her again, i would be watching her like a hawk. Not sure that would be worth it, as other people have commented already.... i know i maybe looking for excuses etc. it would just be such a shame if this girl was actually faithful going forwards, but could never get to that because of something she did in December 2012.

 

I think you are missing the point most posters are telling you.

 

Even IF she hasn't cheated, based on what YOU said, she isn't really sorry for cheating, she isn't remorseful.

 

There will always be problems in any relationship and she will turn to someone else, not because ONE A CHEATER, but because people who cheat as a coping mechanism, but never see anything wrong with it, or fix that problem, will continue to use that coping mechanism.

 

You need to do what you need to do, but you have not been together that long, so to have to deal with monitoring her forever...seems like the start of a bad relationship.