Men are from Mars - Women are from Venus

[Robert Z]

I wanted to continue a discussion started in the venting thread.

 

It suddenly occurred to me why so many people believe dating is about games. It's not so much games but being unable to read signs of attraction and understanding social cues.

 

My knee jerk reaction says that the Internet plays a big part in that but if you spend any time on the Internet, there are still textual signs of attraction and social cues too.

 

So why?

 

Men and women speak a different language. I'm not much for pop psychology, but the book, Men are from Mars - Women are from Venus, struck a chord with every married person I know who read it.

 

Women tend to express their emotions indirectly through language and actions that men take literally. Instead of hearing the emotion, men hear the words.

 

Men are left feeling like they are supposed to be mind readers. And women end up feeling like the man never listens.

 

No thanks to pop psychology, particularly to one that validates traditional gender roles when it comes to relationships. There are biological and neurological differences between sexes but not as drastic as gender role emphasis.

 

Women tend to express their emotions indirectly through language and actions that men take literally. Instead of hearing the emotion, men hear the words.

 

You're talking to the wrong woman about speaking emotions or using emotive language...

 

I confess to hating self-help books written for pop psych consumption.

 

Based on my own experiences [25 years of marriage], and those of friends and family, [perhaps another 150 years of marital experience combined], the guy was spot on.

 

Most men that I know and have talked with feel that life with a woman is a never-ending guessing game. I am usually the one trying to put things into context and convince them that women aren't all just nuts, which is what many men conclude after ten or more years of marriage.

 

The real irony in this is that looking back, I think the ex was sort of nuts; maybe even a sociopath. But I tried everything I could think of before giving up. That book did help with a lot of problems but not the core problem - I don't think she ever really loved me.

 

It takes two to live in a marriage that isn't guided by effective communication and mutual respect.

 

I agree that women are conditioned socially to be more indirect and subtle otherwise we are seen as aggressive. I am very direct and quite rational, this has always created conflict with men who are more comfortable with women who can be more readily ignored. The man I'm seeing currently specifically wanted to date me because I'm assertive, open and direct. He likes that I speak my mind. A lot of men do not appreciate that, especially those that view directness as a form of challenge.

 

Communication styles are down to social conditioning and both sexes are responsible for that. Men just as much. I wonder whether your friends would run to the hills if they knew what the women in their lives really thought of them

 

First I wanted to respond to this

 

It takes two to live in a marriage that isn't guided by effective communication and mutual respect.

 

It only takes one person who is unwilling to compromise or work on communication, not two. If one partner is unwilling to be honest, there is nothing the other can do.

 

Next, going back to the original point

 

It suddenly occurred to me why so many people believe dating is about games. It's not so much games but being unable to read signs of attraction and understanding social cues.

 

If a man has to read cues, the woman is NOT being direct. She is expecting him to be a mind reader.

[Emilia]

It only takes one person who is unwilling to compromise or work on communication, not two. If one partner is unwilling to be honest, there is nothing the other can do.

This is correct. Being direct does not equate being honest though. You can be direct and still a liar. The two are not the same. The idea of learning about the other person is that - if you are compatible - you understand their communication style. Everyone is different. A lot of men are not as direct, and certainly not as honest, as you would like to paint them to be.

If a man has to read cues, the woman is NOT being direct. She is expecting him to be a mind reader.

Everybody has to read clues. People say things they don't necessarily mean. Or they say one thing and mean something else. The common wisdom is to watch someone's actions, not their words. That's reading clues.

[Robert Z]

This is correct. Being direct does not equate being honest though. You can be direct and still a liar. The two are not the same. The idea of learning about the other person is that - if you are compatible - you understand their communication style. Everyone is different. A lot of men are not as direct, and certainly not as honest, as you would like to paint them to be.

 

No one really knows if they are compatible until they've been married for quite some time. And I shouldn't have to understand style if the person is being direct - there is nothing direct about "reading style". When I said "honest", I was really talking about the ability to express your feelings without the need for "cues".

 

When my ex wanted something, say for example she wanted to go to Hawaii, she would do things like leave something from Hawaii laying on the cabinet. Now how in the hell am I supposed to know she wanted to go to Hawaii? I thought she just forgot to put something away!

 

Everybody has to read clues. People say things they don't necessarily mean. Or they say one thing and mean something else. The common wisdom is to watch someone's actions, not their words. That's reading clues.

 

You are only arguing that we should be able to read cues instead of being direct. In my case, if I was unhappy I would say so. I didn't bitch about everything except the actual problem, which is what the ex would do. It became a never-ending guessing game. Only after reading that book did I understand that I needed to read the emotion, not the words. Her word often meant nothing in and of themselves.

[Robert Z]

Obviously this is a gross generalization. Now that that's over-

 

I don't really think so. However it could partially be a generational thing.

 

Robert you are not an average "booger picking/clueless/knuckledragger". You are highly intelligent in your fields. But. Are you able to pick up on social cues?

 

I try but I struggle! Women are far more confusing than Quantum Electrodynamics, and no one really understands that!!!

 

The idea that women confuse most men is so common that it is a self evident joke. It is one thing to be a PUA or just trying to get laid. But to live with someone and understand their needs is another matter all together.

 

Many women are. Some are not. Some men monopolize on those cues and become master seducers/politicians/leaders/men in power. The ones who refuse to learn social cues, or are otherwise TRULY impaired, do not learn and are constantly out of the loop in even their own lives.

 

Perhaps this contributes to the 50% divorce rate. What you are doing is justifying being indirect.

 

There is a famous sci-fi book called Ring World. In the book, the author suggests that men and women are actually different species!!! I remember reading that and thinking "By God I think he's right. That explains a lot!".

Edited August 28, 2013 by Robert Z

[Els]

IMO, communication issues in Rs stem from the fact that PEOPLE are all individuals with individual communication styles. If it were as simple as men all communicating one way and women another, then lesbian/gay relationships would be 100% problem-free, no? Clearly, they aren't. LGBT relationships do not necessarily last any longer than hetero ones.

 

The problem people face is just learning how to work things out with another person at a deep interpersonal level, IMO, rather than a gender divide. The only reason you don't notice such issues with people of the same sex is because you aren't romantically involved with them.

[Quiet Storm]

I know everybody's different, but there are some generalizations that I have found to be true.

 

One of them is that men are more "action" oriented, while women are more "feelings" oriented.

 

I think men often express their feelings through actions, such as warming up my car on a cold morning, while women are often likely to express their feelings with words. This can be a problem if a woman wants to hear the words, and men want to see the action. I think most men's natural inclination is to show his love with action (nice gestures, sex). Women are more nurturing and seem to pay more attention to how others feel. They often show their love by caring, talking, sharing dreams, expressing emotions through affectionate words.

 

I know many say this is not based in biology and is all about society, gender rolls & expectations, but my experience as a mother has shown me that there are is some truth to biological differences.

 

As a mother of two boys and a girl, there are obvious differences that can't be ignored. However, I do know there are exceptions.

 

My boys & their friends will spend the evening doing competetive activities- sports, video games, play fighting, races. They playfully compete. They don't focus too much on their feelings or the feelings of their friends. They want to be busy with activties and don't really consider relationship dynamics. There is truth to the statement that boys are discouraged from showing their feelings, but it also seems to me that boys are less focused on their feelings in the first place. I think they can compartmentalize more easily, and often use activities and tasks to feel better when they are worried, scared or stressed.

 

My daughter and her friends focus on relationships. They seem to be naturally aware. They want to play house, or play school. They talk to their friends about their relationships with their parents, their siblings, their classmates. They share details of the conversations in their relationships, describing how they feel and how the other person felt. It is less about competing and more about sharing. They seem to be more outwardly affected by relationship problems. They seem to feel better after sharing their worries, fears & stresses. They are less likely to compartmentalize, so their emotions very much a part of their daily activities & conversations. If your natural inclination is to focus on feelings & emotions, then of course you will be more aware of expressions & social cues from others (mind reading).

 

These are just my observations. You would think if it was all about environment, my daughter would be very action oriented, as she is being raised with two brothers. She isn't though. She is very much in touch with her feelings and emotions, as well as the feelings of others. My boys care about and respect the feelings of others, but they don't seem to be as actively aware of emotions. They don't notice the subtle expressions because they are not naturally inclined to focus on them. They don't have the "feelings" awareness that my daughter just naturally has.

[tbf]

It takes two to live in a marriage that isn't guided by effective communication and mutual respect.

 

I agree that women are conditioned socially to be more indirect and subtle otherwise we are seen as aggressive. I am very direct and quite rational, this has always created conflict with men who are more comfortable with women who can be more readily ignored. The man I'm seeing currently specifically wanted to date me because I'm assertive, open and direct. He likes that I speak my mind. A lot of men do not appreciate that, especially those that view directness as a form of challenge.

 

Communication styles are down to social conditioning and both sexes are responsible for that. Men just as much. I wonder whether your friends would run to the hills if they knew what the women in their lives really thought of them

 

IMO, there's also a genetic component. No matter how much social conditioning, people appear to have inherent patterns of thought processes.

 

Examples would be that even with the most emotionally devastating childhood, siblings will learn to cope in different manners. Some will break, others won't, even with identical situations of nurture. Identical twin but separated at birth studies verify this.

Added a couple of other posts that are relevant to this discussion.

[fortyninethousand322]

Personally, I'm convinced I'm from planet 501c...

[Woggle]

From the day men and women are born they are socialized differently so they tend to behave in different ways and approach relationships in different. We are also not encouraged to put ourselves in the shoes of the other gender so we never try to figure out why the other does the things they do. If we made more effort to do that we would probably have more happy relationships.

[MrNate 2.0]

Wasn't the title supposed to be men are from mars, and women are from...

 

 

 

 

..hell? :lmao:

 

Kidding:laugh:

[Robert Z]

IMO, communication issues in Rs stem from the fact that PEOPLE are all individuals with individual communication styles. If it were as simple as men all communicating one way and women another, then lesbian/gay relationships would be 100% problem-free, no? Clearly, they aren't. LGBT relationships do not necessarily last any longer than hetero ones.

 

That certainly does not logically follow. It only suggests that they might have different types of problems. Also, just because a person is prone to a particular communication style, it doesn't imply that they would deal with the same any better than anyone else if on the receiving end. My ex and her sister are like two peas in a pod and they can't spend 2 hours in the same room without getting a fight about something. Having similar personality traits and communication styles can make things worse.

 

Incidentally, my ex sister-in-law has divorced three times and my ex is now divorced twice.

 

The problem people face is just learning how to work things out with another person at a deep interpersonal level, IMO, rather than a gender divide. The only reason you don't notice such issues with people of the same sex is because you aren't romantically involved with them.

 

Who said the problem is limited to romance? How many times have I heard people here talk about the ongoing war between the sexes, between members?

 

So do men and women fundamentally not get along, or could it be a problem of communication?

 

In my experience, more often than not the problem has more to do with every day things, not just issues of romance. When my ex wanted to go to Hawaii, it wasn't an issue of romance. It was an issue of her communicating with clues instead of being direct. If I didn't get it she got mad.

Edited August 29, 2013 by Robert Z

[Betterthanthis13]

That certainly does not logically follow. It only suggests that they might have different types of problems. Also, just because a person is prone to a particular communication style, it doesn't imply that they would deal with the same any better than anyone else if on the receiving end. My ex and her sister are like two peas in a pod and they can't spend 2 hours in the same room without getting a fight about something. Having similar personality traits and communication styles can make things worse.

 

Incidentally, my ex sister-in-law has divorced three times and my ex is now divorced twice.

 

 

 

Who said the problem is limited to romance? How many times have I heard people here talk about the ongoing war between the sexes, between members?

 

So do men and women fundamentally not get along, or could it be a problem of communication?

 

In my experience, more often than not the problem has more to do with every day things, not just issues of romance. When my ex wanted to go to Hawaii, it wasn't an issue of romance. It was an issue of her communicating with clues instead of being direct. If I didn't get it she got mad.

 

If one of my girlfriends told me she was going to try to get her husband to try to take her to Hawaii by leaving a Hawaiian item on the counter hoping he would magically guess her wishes, I would tell her she's an idiot, worry about her sanity and possibly stop being friends with her if she didnt snap out of it

[Robert Z]

When my ex was pissed about something, I would have to dig and dig and dig to figure out what was pissing her off. She would almost never tell me the problem directly. Often, I only knew there was a problem because she was like ice. I had no clue as to why.

 

I know this is common problem for married men.

 

As always, I'm not talking in absolutes - there are always exceptions to the rule - but when it comes to tendencies, while it is possible that I was married to a fantastically unreasonable person who couldn't get along with anyone, I don't think my ex was so unusual in this regard. I have heard similar complaints from other married men for as long as I can remember.

[Robert Z]

If one of my girlfriends told me she was going to try to get her husband to try to take her to Hawaii by leaving a Hawaiian item on the counter hoping he would magically guess her wishes, I would tell her she's an idiot, worry about her sanity and possibly stop being friends with her if she didnt snap out of it

 

My take was that she thought I should know her well enough to understand her little clues. If I didn't she got her feelings hurt.

 

Never mind that she couldn't remember anything about what was important to me; even if I had told her directly a dozen times.

[Betterthanthis13]

When my ex was pissed about something, I would have to dig and dig and dig to figure out what was pissing her off. She would almost never tell me the problem directly. Often, I only knew there was a problem because she was like ice. I had no clue as to why.

 

I know this is common problem for married men.

 

As always, I'm not talking in absolutes - there are always exceptions to the rule - but when it comes to tendencies, while it is possible that I was married to a fantastically unreasonable person who couldn't get along with anyone, I don't think my ex was so unusual in this regard. I have heard similar complaints from other married men for as long as I can remember.

 

I'm not doubting that your friends have similar experiences- but you are generalizing women based on a biased perspective. There are, in my estimation, at least an equal number of emotionally stunted men with intimacy issues on this planet as there are women. It's not ok to do stuff like your wife did with the Hawaii thing if you want a satisfying relationship with someone. OTOH- putting up with behavior like that also indicates a problem. It didnt just materialize out of nowhere- yet you picked her and married her.

 

I'm not picking on you. This is a lesson I have learned the hard way too.

[Betterthanthis13]

My take was that she thought I should know her well enough to understand her little clues. If I didn't she got her feelings hurt.

 

Never mind that she couldn't remember anything about what was important to me; even if I had told her directly a dozen times.

 

She sounds like a very frustrating person to deal with. It's ok to be frustrated with people who display asinine behavior like that. You don't have to tolerate that kind of stuff

[Els]

That certainly does not logically follow. It only suggests that they might have different types of problems.

 

Well, I did mean communication issues (which, IMO, the vast majority of relationship problems stem from). At any rate, I am happy to amend my statement to 'issues with communication'. From your conversations with gays and lesbians, have you gathered that they have had zero communication issues with their partners? My conversations have yielded otherwise.

 

Also, just because a person is prone to a particular communication style, it doesn't imply that they would deal with the same any better than anyone else if on the receiving end. My ex and her sister are like two peas in a pod and they can't spend 2 hours in the same room without getting a fight about something. Having similar personality traits and communication styles can make things worse.

 

 

Now this confuses me. That is pretty much what I was saying. What is the point of your OP, given the bolded?

 

Who said the problem is limited to romance? How many times have I heard people here talk about the ongoing war between the sexes, between members?

 

So do men and women fundamentally not get along, or could it be a problem of communication?

 

Frankly, the only places I have ever seen an 'ongoing gender war' is in online communities and schoolyards. Most people I know IRL aren't actually at war with the other gender. Has your experience been different?

 

In my experience, more often than not the problem has more to do with every day things, not just issues of romance. When my ex wanted to go to Hawaii, it wasn't an issue of romance. It was an issue of her communicating with clues instead of being direct. If I didn't get it she got mad.

 

There is a difference between 'romance' and 'in the context of a romantic (aka non-platonic) relationship'.

[Robert Z]

Well, I did mean communication issues (which, IMO, the vast majority of relationship problems stem from). At any rate, I am happy to amend my statement to 'issues with communication'. From your conversations with gays and lesbians, have you gathered that they have had zero communication issues with their partners? My conversations have yielded otherwise.

 

I haven't had enough exposure to gay relationships to have an opinion, but again I don't see how your statement logically follows from mine. I said they may have different types of problems, not no problems.

 

You suggested that they should have no problems if they both have similar communication styles, not me. You seem to be rejecting your previous statement and assigning it to me.

 

Now this confuses me. That is pretty much what I was saying. What is the point of your OP, given the bolded?

 

Again, you are assuming the premise that similar communication styles result in peaceful relationships. That is not an assumption that I made. You did.

 

Frankly, the only places I have ever seen an 'ongoing gender war' is in online communities and schoolyards. Most people I know IRL aren't actually at war with the other gender. Has your experience been different?

 

A 50% divorce rate and probably half of those who remain married being unhappy.

 

I don't think only mutants post online. I see no reason to reject my example based on the premise that people online aren't real. In fact I have been more open and honest here than I have been with anyone except my sb. In some ways, you folks know more about me than anyone ever has. I think the anonymity tends to reveal deeper truths about how people feel, not imaginary ones.

 

There is a difference between 'romance' and 'in the context of a romantic (aka non-platonic) relationship'.

 

Sure there is a difference. But the problem applies in the context of both. I think when it comes to romance the differences are more significant because our deepest feelings get involved. So I don't think the problem changes or goes away when void of romance, just the significance of the problem.

[Els]

Robert, I think you misunderstand the point of me posting in this thread. It wasn't to convince you of anything, nor to argue with you.

 

You asked a question, I answered. You disagree, that's fine. Hope you find other answers more helpful to you.

[Betterthanthis13]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Elswyth

Well, I did mean communication issues (which, IMO, the vast majority of relationship problems stem from). At any rate, I am happy to amend my statement to 'issues with communication'. From your conversations with gays and lesbians, have you gathered that they have had zero communication issues with their partners? My conversations have yielded otherwise.

 

I haven't had enough exposure to gay relationships to have an opinion, but again I don't see how your statement logically follows from mine. I said they may have different types of problems, not no problems.

such as? Please provide an example. I am unaware of any relationship problems within the LGBT community that do not exist within traditional opposite sex relationships.

 

You suggested that they should have no problems if they both have similar communication styles, not me. You seem to be rejecting your previous statement and assigning it to me.

When was that suggested? In a PM? I'm missing that part of the thread

 

 

Quote:

Now this confuses me. That is pretty much what I was saying. What is the point of your OP, given the bolded?

 

 

Again, you are assuming the premise that similar communication styles result in peaceful relationships. That is not an assumption that I made. You did.

 

i can't find where the other poster made that assumption- ??

Quote:

Frankly, the only places I have ever seen an 'ongoing gender war' is in online communities and schoolyards. Most people I know IRL aren't actually at war with the other gender. Has your experience been different?

 

 

A 50% divorce rate and probably half of those who remain married being unhappy.

 

that doesn't answer the question

 

I don't think only mutants post online. I see no reason to reject my example based on the premise that people online aren't real. In fact I have been more open and honest here than I have been with anyone except my sb. In some ways, you folks know more about me than anyone ever has. I think the anonymity tends to reveal deeper truths about how people feel, not imaginary ones.

 

thats good! Honesty is good

 

Quote:

There is a difference between 'romance' and 'in the context of a romantic (aka non-platonic) relationship'.

 

 

Sure there is a difference. But the problem applies in the context of both. I think when it comes to romance the differences are more significant because our deepest feelings get involved. So I don't think the problem changes or goes away when void of romance, just the significance of the problem.

 

I think you are making excuses for the fact that *you* have tolerated poor behavior and are now paying the price.

[cocorico]

While it is true that women are socialised to be less direct than men in many societies, it is untrue that *all* women are, even in those societies, or that all men are more direct. And notions of "Mars" and "Venus" are cheap marketing tricks to sell stuff to hapless individuals who are made to feel that they are being confronted with a Truth that they have little control over.

 

In reality, some women manipulate, hint, seduce, play games or use other indirect means to get their way because they have learned that that works best for them. Some men do the same, for similar reasons.

 

Other women are more direct, either because it works better for them, or because they lack "feminine wiles" or have never learned how to manipulate effectively.

 

Some men prefer the former, and some the latter. Pif you want a sustainable R, find someone whose communication style you can work with.

[serial muse]

 

Again, you are assuming the premise that similar communication styles result in peaceful relationships. That is not an assumption that I made. You did.

 

 

 

A 50% divorce rate and probably half of those who remain married being unhappy.

 

But then these two statements contradict themselves as well, right? This isn't a logical conclusion. You can't attribute a 50% divorce rate simply to Mars/Venus communication issues, since you just admitted that similar communication styles don't necessarily result in peaceful relationships either.

 

I agree with cocorico. There are women with direct communication styles, and men who are indirect. Personally, I tend to be direct and have been frustrated with the more indirect men in my life. So it's actually very hard for me to relate to this stereotyping. I'm sure this exists, and I do think much of it is socialization...but it's not my personal experience, so I read these threads and these books and think, pfft.

 

And it's why such generalizations are in fact dangerous. If a man reads that book and then assumes that's how I communicate, it will be annoying and frustrating for both of us. That, too, has happened. Far better (and safer) to take people as they come, as individuals.

 

I'm sure that people reading those books that you cited in your OP did get something out of them; I just think that it would be better not to classify every damn thing as men v. women, but instead just highlight different communication styles, regardless of gender. There's a reason the Five Love Languages is still a bestseller everywhere, while Mars/Venus has long since fallen out of vogue. It comes across as dated, because that's exactly what it is. Very 1950s.

[tbf]

To be fair to RZ, he's of an older generation which aligned closer to gender stereotypes. I'm guessing his friends are of similar age.