Author victor_hansen Posted August 28, 2013 Author Posted August 28, 2013 Hmmmmmm. My guess is that since your affair, she is holding onto the marriage only for stability, and she's just going on with her life as if she were single. She may not believe in counseling, but since you have a problem with communicating, and she's obviously distant from you, you guys need to do SOMETHING to bridge the gap. If not a therapist, maybe some kind of couple's workbook or SOMETHING. The only hope for your marriage is to rebuild that trust and intimacy, which is going to be difficult to do when she's putting her energy into her "friend". So something has to give here. Here are some options: - Just be honest about breaking into her texts, come completely clean about how you feel, lay it all out there, and tell her you want to rebuild your marriage. Hope for the best. - Tell her that you are very uncomfortable with her friendship with this man, and if she wants your marriage to continue, you need to be brought into the friendship and meet him. - Say nothing, but focus on rebuilding intimacy by yourself. You CAN make a lot of changes in your relationship by yourself, just by changing your part in the patterns of your marriage. Read marriage books, try different ways to reconnect with her. Maybe once you break down that wall between you which was caused by your affair, she will open herself back up to you. You already know that there has been some form of infidelity on her part, whether it is just emotional, or more. So there is nothing to be gained by continuing to spy on her or gather evidence. You know she is cheating. The question is what do you want to do about it? Thank you for your line up. I'm still uncertain about what to do. Here are som fact and my interpretations, that might help you understand my situation better: - Before my infidelity she pleaded me for more attention and actually made lists of what she was craving for to herself. I interpret this as her fighting for us. - After my infidelity she told me that if i came 100% clean she would give us a chance. I interpret this as normal behaviour. - After I snooped through her stuff first time, she got angry and told me, that he was just a friend. I'm still unsure why she didn't tell me about him, though. - She warned me, that if I snooped through her stuff again, she would break up. Perhaps she genuenly feels that I stepped on her private sphere, as there at the time was nothing to worry about. - I tried to be the best I could, but kept being suspicious. I guess that's normal to throw actions after the opposite part, when you have been doing what I have. So I snooped whenever I got the chance. - She had texed a female friend asking us how things were, that I had an affair but that she wanted to patch things up, for as she said, "He's actualle a good man, and I hope I can reconcile with my feelings again." - At one time I got very suspicious as I picked up a text between her and a female friend saying: "I'm tired of being accused all the time of cheating, when it's him, that cheated. I'll just keep the act up and hope to win the lottery so I can throw him out!". This lead me to intensify my snooping. - I found that she invited her ex while I was away. I knew beforehand and set up video surveillance in the house. To my best of knowledge - nothing happened, though I can't account for 2 hours as I fell asleep. - I confronted her with her attempt of getting together with her ex, and she demanded sources. She actually broke up with me at that point and went looking for a house for herself and the kids. I interpret this as she wouldn't stay with me, except if she could see a future with me. - Somehow I got us back together and got the "final chance". No more snooping! Or else...! - Things were better for a while until I suggested that we spent a month apart to see if the feelings would come back. - During the month we of course had to meet because of the kids. One time she cuddled in to me and told me how wonderful it was to feel me. - Then came the time for her numerous outings, e.g. bikers weekend and all. After the second weekend in a row, something inside of me told me that something was up. So I checked her phone bill online and found that she'd been texting a man, I know is only interested in one thing. When she came home I found these texts deleted. - All through this, she has invested a lot of money together with me in our house. Stuff, that won't split by a divorse. She also put a mortgage on the house in order to buy a new car (it was time!). I interpret this as her actually anticipating staying in the house. And since she can't afford it on her own, I suspect she plan on staying here with me. I may have left important stuff out.. I'm not sure..
Author victor_hansen Posted August 28, 2013 Author Posted August 28, 2013 F*ck... As we speak, I can see them sending messages fishing for each others interest.. I feel like vomitting.... Argh! This needs to stop NOW!
oldshirt Posted August 28, 2013 Posted August 28, 2013 "Is this what you want to be doing when Jesus comes back?" - Joe Dirt Is this how you want to live?
Chi townD Posted August 28, 2013 Posted August 28, 2013 (edited) "I know what you did last weekend", "How much do they know?", "Nothing, it's a secret between us that will never come out", "Do you want me to go to the upcoming bikers event?", "that depends, do we act as if nothing happened between us?", "Thats what I'd hoped for never would happen! You mean so much to me as a friend, that I won't let drunk faults destroy this". Dude, this is the quote from your first post. DUDE!!! SHE CHEATED!!! It might have been a drunken mistake, but it doesn't change the final outcome of the fact that she gave herself to someone else!!! The thing is, you did the heavy lifting for your indiscretion, she knows that you want the relationship to work or else you wouldn't have subjugated yourself to everything she wanted you to do. Therefore, she knows that losing the relationship is the LAST thing you want to do. SO, it's very easy to threaten ending the relationship to keep you in line!!! So, if you expose and she discovers that you snooped, okay. It is what it is. But, you have EVERY RIGHT to know what's going on in your relationship. So, don't feel bad about wanting to know the truth. And if she wants to end the relationship. Okay, fine! There are worse things in the world. Remember, she cheated on you and threatened you to keep her secret. There shouldn't be secrets in a loving and caring relationship. If it's time to move on then it's time to move on. But, if you pack your bags and are ready to walk out the door, I speculate that she's gonna have a change of heart. And if you walk out the door and she doesn't stop you, I would give it a week or two and she'll be calling you. The thing is, from what you wrote, sh*t is going to get really hard for her. She'll no longer have you for finical support other than child support (if the kids are yours and not hers from a previous relationship). She'll no longer be able to go on her biker weekends unless you agree to watch the kids. Her standard of living is going to change dramatically. She's got a lot to lose and she knows it, she just doesn't want you to know it. Edited August 28, 2013 by Chi townD 1
Try Posted August 28, 2013 Posted August 28, 2013 After my infidelity she told me that if i came 100% clean she would give us a chance. Now that you know for sure that she is cheating, you need to tell her the same exact thing. You do not need to prove anything to her for you to act. She either is remorseful and you give the marraige a chance or she is not remorseful, in which case you end the marraige. If she focuses on how you know rather than what she did, then she is not remorseful. When you cheated she assumed the role of the sole person that gets to make the rules in your relationship. Now that she is cheating, you need to take that role on yourself. She may have rationalized that her cheating is OK because it is a revenge affair. The other option is that this is an exit affair. Either way, you need to confront and deal with it. 1
Author victor_hansen Posted August 28, 2013 Author Posted August 28, 2013 You are all so right But i am also so afraid that my inner role play doesn't play out as I imagine. I'm afraid that she'll put on a fight for keeping the one kid we share. I'm afraid about me not being able to stand the length when she denies and moves focus. ****, I'm afraid... Oh, I hate my situation. I would wish one of you guys, who have nothing to loose in respect to my wife, could fix this for me... Perhaps someone on the other side of the ocean could send her a mail with "I know your secret! Act responsible, or I will..." **** **** ****...
Chi townD Posted August 28, 2013 Posted August 28, 2013 You are all so right But i am also so afraid that my inner role play doesn't play out as I imagine. I'm afraid that she'll put on a fight for keeping the one kid we share. I'm afraid about me not being able to stand the length when she denies and moves focus. ****, I'm afraid... Oh, I hate my situation. I would wish one of you guys, who have nothing to loose in respect to my wife, could fix this for me... Perhaps someone on the other side of the ocean could send her a mail with "I know your secret! Act responsible, or I will..." **** **** ****... That's not for her to decide. Get a lawyer and have HIM/HER fight for your rights as the father of that kid. Sorry dude, you're gonna have to man up on this one. Hell, I had to do it. Did it work out for me in the end? You bet your ass it did! I confronted with my evidence, she admitted it and called me every name in the book and ended it with me. BUT!!! My life is 10 times better without her in it! I got a new lease on life. Right now, you have to focus on being the best Dad to that kid. That you are ALWAYS going to be in his life. You need to stand tall and be a man that he can emulate himself after. When you confront. The best way to do it is to be calm and DO NOT RAISE YOUR VOICE AT ALL!!! This is going to throw her for a loop. She's going to gear up for a fight, maybe to say that you are yelling and screaming at her, so if she calls the cops she can say that she doesn't feel safe with you around and get you kicked out. DO NOT BY INTO IT!!!! I strongly recommend that you get a voice activated recorder (VAR) and have it on you when you confront. Women tend to threaten guys with false allegations all the time especially when they think they're gonna get screwed either financially or through the courts. Time to open up a can o' man and suck it up! But, you're in the best position to be in. You're not married, so no alimony. You'll probably be ordered to split the assets down the middle and you'll pay child support on one child. Not exactly what you wanted to hear, but there are guys that are in financial ruin due to a cheating wife. 2
serial muse Posted August 28, 2013 Posted August 28, 2013 The false trap here is that you're worried that confronting her with what you know will result in the end of the marriage. But it sounds like she's already taking steps to damage it beyond all repair. It's clear you don't want to just stand by and watch, but the ongoing snooping only puts you in the position of having information that you really don't want to act on. Your marriage is seriously broken, and she's basically not interested in trying to fix it. Have you two been to couples' counseling since your affair? I think it's pretty telling that you haven't had sex since then. It sounds like you're saying that's her choice entirely at this point? And those texts that suggest she's only sticking around for financial stability now are particularly troubling. The question is, under what circumstances are you willing to stick this out? Are you in a place where you're willing to offer your own ultimatums? (You may not be.) But if so, here's what I'd suggest. If you don't want to tell her what you know through snooping, just be up front in a different way: Tell her where you are with things. That you wanted the marriage to work, and you feel that you've tried, but she seems to be pulling farther and farther away and expressing less and less interest in fixing things. That you understand the affair hurt her deeply, that you weren't giving her the attention she craved, that having an affair made everything worse, and that you'd like nothing more than to change that - but that you're getting the sense she doesn't really want that anymore, and if so, you don't want to keep investing alone in a marriage that's dying. And so you won't.
Try Posted August 28, 2013 Posted August 28, 2013 You are all so right But i am also so afraid that my inner role play doesn't play out as I imagine. I'm afraid that she'll put on a fight for keeping the one kid we share. I'm afraid about me not being able to stand the length when she denies and moves focus. ****, I'm afraid... Oh, Doing nothing because you are immobilized by fear, is a decision not to act. This is a bad decsion. When you let fear dictate your actions, you usually lose the girl. 1
Realist3 Posted August 28, 2013 Posted August 28, 2013 (edited) I have a little bit to say about this, but I am still hung up on one thing you said she said: "I'm tired of being accused all the time of cheating, when it's him, that cheated. I'll just keep the act up and hope to win the lottery so I can throw him out!". I think you might be projecting. Obviously, she shared a kiss with her friend. One she said she didn't want that drunken moment to ruin the friendship. She set a boundary there with him. You mentioned mono. Yeah that is transmitted from kissing. It is almost as if you want her to be as guilty as you are so you can have a reset. Edited August 28, 2013 by Realist3
bobwhite007 Posted August 28, 2013 Posted August 28, 2013 Google: How to recover deleted text messages I thought you were out of investigator mode? Lol.. I can't just leave and let her do this to me. She is gonna turn it all around and say to everyone how innocent she is and it was all me. I can't let her do that.
pteromom Posted August 28, 2013 Posted August 28, 2013 She warned me, that if I snooped through her stuff again, she would break up. Perhaps she genuenly feels that I stepped on her private sphere, as there at the time was nothing to worry about. I am all for respecting one's privacy, but making you agree to "no snooping" is only valid if there is nothing to find. For instance, I don't cheat, don't text to men, don't flirt, etc, so if my husband started snooping, I would be highly offended. But your wife has definitely done these things, and part of the consequence for being untrustworthy is that she is treated as if she cannot be trusted... because she's already proven she can't. More snooping is NOT the answer. Video surveillance? Please! You have let this thing become an obsession - some desperate need for... what? You already know she has cheated. What more do you want? I would go ahead and get your ducks in a row for a divorce. Talk to an attorney. Get financial stuff in order. Read your state laws on divorce and custody. Just prepare. At the same time, see if you can rebuild your relationship at all; if you can get her to reconnect. Put your energy into THAT (if that is indeed what you want) instead of spying/snooping. One of two things will happen. She'll either break down her wall and decide to truly reconnect with you, or you'll divorce in which case, you will be prepared to do so.
BetrayedH Posted August 29, 2013 Posted August 29, 2013 You want honesty from her but are unwilling to be honest with her. There is no true intimacy in a relationship where there's dishonesty. If there is anything to be salvaged in this relationship, you have to get honest. I suggest a calm, cool, collected confrontation as well. And a VAR is probably not a bad idea. As for the relationship potentially ending, you need to man up and face that reality. You cheated. She cheated. She gave you an ultimatum about snooping; you've repeatedly crossed that line. Yeah, there's a good chance you don't make it thru this. Now you want to find some squirmy way to keep up the dishonesty to maintain some facade of a relationship. Knock it off. Confront her with what you know. Admit to the snooping (which was completely justified by her inappropriate friendships, deleted texts, bringing over her ex, and her drunken sexcapade) and stand behind it. In a marriage, privacy is for the bathroom. Otherwise, you're supposed to be partners in everything. You don't hide stuff from your partner unless you have something to hide. Get honest, put your cards on the table, and be prepared for whatever might come. But don't sit here and expect honesty while you're lying. 1
Author victor_hansen Posted August 29, 2013 Author Posted August 29, 2013 (edited) Do you feel it's appropriate for her to maintain a friendship with a man with whom she's been kissing and whom keeps on suggestive texting? She may have set a boundary, but i am concerned that since it happened once, it might happen again next time she's drunk. Especially because of the nature of their communication. And because she confides in him more than she does in me. And the fact that she (or he) never mentions me is totally out of proportion. Actually she told him about a nice experience she just had, which I facilitated. No mentioning of me at all. It's like their friendship is theirs exclusively and she does not involve anybody. Not even her other friends. I can't live with that, projecting or not I have a little bit to say about this, but I am still hung up on one thing you said she said: I think you might be projecting. Obviously, she shared a kiss with her friend. One she said she didn't want that drunken moment to ruin the friendship. She set a boundary there with him. You mentioned mono. Yeah that is transmitted from kissing. It is almost as if you want her to be as guilty as you are so you can have a reset. Edited August 29, 2013 by victor_hansen
Realist3 Posted August 29, 2013 Posted August 29, 2013 Do you feel it's appropriate for her to maintain a friendship with a man with whom she's been kissing and whom keeps on suggestive texting? She may have set a boundary, but i am concerned that since it happened once, it might happen again next time she's drunk. Especially because of the nature of their communication. And because she confides in him more than she does in me. And the fact that she (or he) never mentions me is totally out of proportion. Actually she told him about a nice experience she just had, which I facilitated. No mentioning of me at all. It's like their friendship is theirs exclusively and she does not involve anybody. Not even her other friends. I can't live with that, projecting or not Whether it is inappropriate is your call. To me it sounds like she views it strictly as a friendship not an EA. But, with that being said it doesn't mean it is not an emotional affair, she just may not know what an EA is, or is in denial. It sure has all the markings. If you can't live with it then confront her, and don't worry about telling her you snooped. You snooped because you cared. If that is a deal breaker for her then so be it. What is going on now is a deal breaker for you. You are the point where you will work together to make the relationship work under mutually agreed upon terms or not. Don't back down, and don't be scared to admit you snooped. 1
Author victor_hansen Posted August 29, 2013 Author Posted August 29, 2013 Can we agree upon the following? 1. A man and a woman CAN be just friends 2. Statistically, a man OFTEN wants more, but maintains a friendship in hopes 3. When it is obvious, that the man WANTS more than friendship - this friendship will become poison to your marriage These are my oppinions. She DOES have many male friends. Also new acquaintances, that I don't officially hear about, but have learned about through snooping. Same story for all of these acquaintances: She is fishing for knowing how interested they are, but remains at throwing them the "just friends"-card. I see this as a way for her to desperately build her self esteem and keeping these guys close in order to keep getting positive evaluation. What I am able to give her, I'm unsure of. Everytime I bring up our relationship, she tells me that "feelings aren't healed over a few weeks..." It's been past a year now. It is as if she's locked in her situation. Living with me gives her safety and stability. Having the other men gives her confirmation. And I suspect, every once in a while she'll vent the steam and get some, all the while I get nothing - not even affection. No question, she has a problem. But if you're an alcoholic, DON'T BUY BEER to have laying around the house. It's too tempting. If you're vulnerable in love while drunk or together with a certain type of person - DON'T PUT YOURSELF IN THAT SITUATION! I think, what I want to archieve is for her to realize what she's doing, and to make her decide wether our marriage is truly worth the fight. For the both of us. Yes. I snoop. I did it for three months after I found out about this friend. Appearently, their jargon is a little sexually attoned, but perhaps I was a bit too harsh in judging this. I stopped snooping until a month ago, when I got the feeling. Hmm. Rambling again.
BetrayedH Posted August 29, 2013 Posted August 29, 2013 Get the book, Not Just Friends, by Shirley Glass. Insist that your wife read it.
Realist3 Posted August 29, 2013 Posted August 29, 2013 Can we agree upon the following? 1. A man and a woman CAN be just friends 2. Statistically, a man OFTEN wants more, but maintains a friendship in hopes 3. When it is obvious, that the man WANTS more than friendship - this friendship will become poison to your marriage These are my oppinions. She DOES have many male friends. Also new acquaintances, that I don't officially hear about, but have learned about through snooping. Same story for all of these acquaintances: She is fishing for knowing how interested they are, but remains at throwing them the "just friends"-card. I see this as a way for her to desperately build her self esteem and keeping these guys close in order to keep getting positive evaluation. What I am able to give her, I'm unsure of. Everytime I bring up our relationship, she tells me that "feelings aren't healed over a few weeks..." It's been past a year now. It is as if she's locked in her situation. Living with me gives her safety and stability. Having the other men gives her confirmation. And I suspect, every once in a while she'll vent the steam and get some, all the while I get nothing - not even affection. No question, she has a problem. But if you're an alcoholic, DON'T BUY BEER to have laying around the house. It's too tempting. If you're vulnerable in love while drunk or together with a certain type of person - DON'T PUT YOURSELF IN THAT SITUATION! I think, what I want to archieve is for her to realize what she's doing, and to make her decide wether our marriage is truly worth the fight. For the both of us. Yes. I snoop. I did it for three months after I found out about this friend. Appearently, their jargon is a little sexually attoned, but perhaps I was a bit too harsh in judging this. I stopped snooping until a month ago, when I got the feeling. Hmm. Rambling again. I agree with your first three statements listed. I don't see it as unusual for a BS to seek validation. You do have to understand that your hurt her very badly. You aren't the one that gets to determine how long it takes her to heal from that. You obviously want this to work. Cut to the quick. Lay it out. Would you possibly suggest that what is going on right now is doing either of you or your relationship any good? I second BH's advice with that book. Read it. Have her read it.
pteromom Posted August 29, 2013 Posted August 29, 2013 Can we agree upon the following? 1. A man and a woman CAN be just friends 2. Statistically, a man OFTEN wants more, but maintains a friendship in hopes 3. When it is obvious, that the man WANTS more than friendship - this friendship will become poison to your marriage No, I don't agree with #3. What matters is what your partner does, not the 3rd party. If a man wanted more than friendship with me, he still wouldn't get it, so it wouldn't matter what HE wanted. I think, what I want to archieve is for her to realize what she's doing, and to make her decide wether our marriage is truly worth the fight. For the both of us. The only way this is going to happen is if you come clean and tell her what you know.
Owl Posted August 29, 2013 Posted August 29, 2013 Here's my suggestion. As hard as it is for you right now in light of all this...stop being afraid of losing her, and take action to protect yourself and your family from her actions. Go home...tell her exactly what you know, and go ahead and tell her how you know it. Tell her that you completely understand that she told you she'd leave if you snooped again...and tell her you're just fine with that. Let her know that in light of all of this, your marriage is over, and she needs to get the EFF OUT....right now. Help her pack. Let her know you're DONE with this. Take control back of your life. Now...she might actually leave. But I doubt it. I'd hazard a guess she'll beg and plead to stay, cry and ask you to forgive her. Because she's ok with leaving under her own power, by her own decision. But she'll hate the idea of being thrown out as a cheater, knowing you're going to let everyone know exactly why you did it. Regardless of what you decide to do...take your power back. Realize that even if she leaves...you may hurt in the short term, but you'll be FINE. You're better off without someone who treats you like this. If she stays...it needs to be under YOUR terms, your conditions, your requirements.
Chi townD Posted August 29, 2013 Posted August 29, 2013 Meh...Victor isn't gonna do anything...his last few post were about the reasons NOT to confront rather than get advice on how TO confront.
Author victor_hansen Posted August 30, 2013 Author Posted August 30, 2013 (edited) I am going to do something. I just need the way to do it. Yesterday, as a fact, I actually took the first step printing out the evidence but as she worked very late i couldn't get a response to my opener as we both had to get some sleep in order to get up to work today. My opener is to ask her if she feels we're making progress in reconciliation going for either yes, no our standing still. She answered thatshe was too tired to talk about it but that she'd like to talk when there is more time. I of course fear that this means she had bad stuff to say. . But opening the conversation i plan to be calm and understanding, not revealing all my evidence at once, asking her what she's hiding from me. Tip her off to what I knew and ask again until she hopefully tells me the truth and what she's going to do about it. I'll keep reassuring her that i will try to forgive and understand how hard it must be for her to tell me, concidering that i have been in a similar situation. Ultimately i just want to trust her intentions and have her stop talking to the other guy. . Edited August 30, 2013 by victor_hansen
Author victor_hansen Posted August 30, 2013 Author Posted August 30, 2013 So my final question before I break the bomb: Given this evidence: Chat conversation not in particular order: Her: "My vacation started with my work called me in" Him: "Do you know the word no?" Her: "Yes, I did saturday, haha" --------- Her: "Do you miss me already?" Him: "I could have scared you away :)" Her: "It takes more to scare me" Him: "Ok, let's see" Her: "But you got to experience all sides of me that evening, haha" --------- Her: "I know what you did last weekend" Him: "How much do they know?" Her: "Nothing. I told you this is a secret between us, that'll never come out" --------- Her: "Do you want me to come to the next event next weekend?" Him: "That's not only black and white. Depends if we're going to act as nothing happened" Her: "This was what I hoped would never happen. I told you that our friendship is more valuable than drunken mistakes should ruin" ------ Is this a 100% sure bomb? Or could there be a rational explaination to this communication? I of course hold this up against her general behaviour and the way she avoided talking about mononocleosis. I told her one morning that she'd been talking in her sleep, saying "Don't tell anyone!", and she explained it as an everyday episode the day before, where she cried about not feeling sufficient. Any takers?
Author victor_hansen Posted August 30, 2013 Author Posted August 30, 2013 You can 100% expect to be gaslighted. I'm not fully familiar with that expression. What is it exactly and how do i deal with it?
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