Bread crumbs r all Im worth

[SunsetRed]

I do live my life as if bread crumbs are all im worth. I've had counseling, group therapy, read spiritual crap, practiced every meditation and affirmation possible and yet somewhere in me is this damaged spirit that thinks I cant get more than bread crumbs.

 

Ive seen it all my life too, even w the guys before xMM, I wanted more, but I was so grateful for everything they threw at me. I remember being grateful to hear the sound of some guy's voice, as he called me at midnight for a booty call...that's how bad ive been,

 

I don't know how to fix it. Ive tried to fix it and I do now carry myself "as if" , as in I pretend to be a woman who expects the best, but then the best never comes.

 

Ive put 100% effort into dating since the initial break up w MM and each of these single guys offered me less than MM did, if that's possible.

 

I had the attitude that it was ok if MM was taking his wife camping or on this trip, Id find a guy to do that for me. Thing is, I didn't. I got a lot of "do ya wanna come overs" and met a few guys who were looking for someone to move in w then and split the bills.

 

I wish I could be hypnotized or something and have a spell put on me to where I attract the kind of men who will love me.

 

I look at other women who have that and I think, How do they do it..its now how they look, its what they project. Could I truly be so damaged inside that I'll never project what its like to be loved?

[MobileMan626]

Well firstly i need to know who ended the relationship ?

If you were the dumpee it's normal to go through stages of

disbelief because noone seems to measure up to your ex.

That's why you have to give yourself time to 'Heal'

You have to Fall back in love with your self first before you go out trying to

date everything walking.

[MissBee]

I'm gonna reply to this, but in a PM. Be on the look out

[ian1966]

Dude (MobileMan), no offence but from your other thread you may not be the best person to give advice.. No offence intended.

[MobileMan626]

Dude (MobileMan), no offence but from your other thread you may not be the best person to give advice.. No offence intended.

 

I can give advice well. I know what i need to do i'm just to much of

a chicken to do it. From what i've learned on this site combined with what

people tell me in my everyday life i know exactly what it takes to heal a broken hear. i'm just in denial and i hold on to false hope

[ian1966]

I can give advice well. I know what i need to do i'm just to much of

a chicken to do it. From what i've learned on this site combined with what

people tell me in my everyday life i know exactly what it takes to heal a broken hear. i'm just in denial and i hold on to false hope

 

OK, but not from your experience. Its called hypocrisy. People on this site will tell you all sorts of things, some may apply to a given situation well, others will be complete rubbish. I'm not saying don't give advice, its up to the OP whether he/she chooses to use it or not. Same with people in everyday life, you might get good advice but it will be tainted by their own experiences and may be counter-productive in other situations.

 

I don't mean to be mean, though it probably comes across that way so apologies again.

[ian1966]

Dear SunsetRed, I truly feel for you...

 

First you have no future with xMM and I'm sure you know that.

I'm sure you know this but its your image of your own self-worth that is the problem. Did you suffer violence, abuse of some type, dysfunctional family, etc during your childhood?

If so there are specific techniques available to work on this.

I could relate some if this is the case.

 

Can I ask about how old you are? it makes a big difference in determining the best way to move forward.

 

Stop making yourself 'easy' - say NO, I'm busy... or "I'm with someone at the moment". Guys will chase what they don't/can't have (same with girls).

You need to make yourself the 'prize' and not the seeker.

 

But how do you do it?

Have you tried online dating?

Put yourself out there. Create a profile with a nice picture of you with a cute dog / doing something exciting (even if its faked). It provokes easy initial conversation starter.

 

The first few lines of your profile are paramount. Again there are specific, tried and tested lines that will work in drawing positive attention to you.

 

I don't know how you see yourself physically, and its actually not that important really. I know a guy who is very average looking yet gets many dates with beautiful women just by using these techniques, a couple of which I will list here, but there are many more...

 

Show confidence in your profile even if its not genuine.

Faked confidence will become real confidence once you are swamped in guys wanting to contact you.

DO NOT proactively contact anyone. With a clever, provocative profile you will be seen as confident, cocky and selective.

These are attraction builders, and that is what you need to gain self-esteem.

 

The sleazy guys will be put off by this and you will attract a much better type of guy of which you will have many choices.

I've only really said a few of many things relating to this, and could offer specific examples if you are interested.

 

There are techniques for email, chat, text and dating that have been developed and DO WORK.

 

A friend of mine gave up on himself in a similar way to you, but he found this info and applied it and had women contacting him and dating him almost every night of the week. His self-esteem skyrocketed. He even dated a very attractive and well known tv personality for a while that he met online using these techniques.

 

I'm not selling anything here just offering what I consider genuine help.

Cheer up. You CAN CHANGE and find a much brighter future.

[GreySkyMorning]

Dear SunsetRed, I truly feel for you...

 

First you have no future with xMM and I'm sure you know that.

I'm sure you know this but its your image of your own self-worth that is the problem. Did you suffer violence, abuse of some type, dysfunctional family, etc during your childhood?

If so there are specific techniques available to work on this.

I could relate some if this is the case.

 

Can I ask about how old you are? it makes a big difference in determining the best way to move forward.

 

Stop making yourself 'easy' - say NO, I'm busy... or "I'm with someone at the moment". Guys will chase what they don't/can't have (same with girls).

You need to make yourself the 'prize' and not the seeker.

 

But how do you do it?

Have you tried online dating?

Put yourself out there. Create a profile with a nice picture of you with a cute dog / doing something exciting (even if its faked). It provokes easy initial conversation starter.

 

The first few lines of your profile are paramount. Again there are specific, tried and tested lines that will work in drawing positive attention to you.

 

I don't know how you see yourself physically, and its actually not that important really. I know a guy who is very average looking yet gets many dates with beautiful women just by using these techniques, a couple of which I will list here, but there are many more...

 

Show confidence in your profile even if its not genuine.

Faked confidence will become real confidence once you are swamped in guys wanting to contact you.

DO NOT proactively contact anyone. With a clever, provocative profile you will be seen as confident, cocky and selective.

These are attraction builders, and that is what you need to gain self-esteem.

 

The sleazy guys will be put off by this and you will attract a much better type of guy of which you will have many choices.

I've only really said a few of many things relating to this, and could offer specific examples if you are interested.

 

There are techniques for email, chat, text and dating that have been developed and DO WORK.

 

A friend of mine gave up on himself in a similar way to you, but he found this info and applied it and had women contacting him and dating him almost every night of the week. His self-esteem skyrocketed. He even dated a very attractive and well known tv personality for a while that he met online using these techniques.

 

I'm not selling anything here just offering what I consider genuine help.

Cheer up. You CAN CHANGE and find a much brighter future.

 

1. You are the last one that has any place telling someone else they shouldn't give advice.

 

2. Hypocrisy doesn't seem to be a word that you're actually familiar with the meaning of in a practical sense.

 

3. Online dating sucks.

 

4. Her post actually has nothing to do with dating.

[SunsetRed]

Thanks Ian, my age is 45. This means Ive lived long enough to have experienced life, learned from it and have enough experience to know which lessons I may never learn. My looks are ok for someone my age.

Besides, this attracting the right person thing isn't about looks, its about inner aura.

I did have a very abusive childhood and then a very abusive domestic violence type marriage. After that marriage, I never experienced physical abuse again, but I did attract the mentally abusive, uncaring type.

After each relationship, I would go talk to a counselor. Sometimes I talked to the counselor while I was in the relationship, so I have developed some skills.

When I was 39, I left the town Id lived in forever and made a big move. I found a job I like and found a cottage on the beach. So, that part of my life is great. I love where I live and love the new friends I'd made here.

Two years after moving here, I met MM. He actually is SO much better than anyone else Ive been with. I just don't have the best frame of reference, so when I got some bread crumbs from him, it felt good because I wasn't used to getting anything but abuse.

Since our break up, I have tried the online dating thing. I haven't met anyone bad, its just I did meet a lot of needy guys who were looking for a second income or who simply wanted anyone they could find to fill a void. Ive yet to meet anyone online that I had chemistry with.

 

I agree that I need to stop being so eager. I do need to pull away and not be a seeker. It may also help if I wouldn't act so damn grateful for every drink a man buys me or for every sliver of attention. I get.

 

There's still some part of me that feels like I wont master the finding love lesson in this lifetime. I do have some accomplishments... I live on the beach, but it shouldn't be that hard to find men who like the beach and who'd want that.

[GreySkyMorning]

Thanks Ian, my age is 45. This means Ive lived long enough to have experienced life, learned from it and have enough experience to know which lessons I may never learn. My looks are ok for someone my age.

Besides, this attracting the right person thing isn't about looks, its about inner aura.

I did have a very abusive childhood and then a very abusive domestic violence type marriage. After that marriage, I never experienced physical abuse again, but I did attract the mentally abusive, uncaring type.

After each relationship, I would go talk to a counselor. Sometimes I talked to the counselor while I was in the relationship, so I have developed some skills.

When I was 39, I left the town Id lived in forever and made a big move. I found a job I like and found a cottage on the beach. So, that part of my life is great. I love where I live and love the new friends I'd made here.

Two years after moving here, I met MM. He actually is SO much better than anyone else Ive been with. I just don't have the best frame of reference, so when I got some bread crumbs from him, it felt good because I wasn't used to getting anything but abuse.

Since our break up, I have tried the online dating thing. I haven't met anyone bad, its just I did meet a lot of needy guys who were looking for a second income or who simply wanted anyone they could find to fill a void. Ive yet to meet anyone online that I had chemistry with.

 

I agree that I need to stop being so eager. I do need to pull away and not be a seeker. It may also help if I wouldn't act so damn grateful for every drink a man buys me or for every sliver of attention. I get.

 

There's still some part of me that feels like I wont master the finding love lesson in this lifetime. I do have some accomplishments... I live on the beach, but it shouldn't be that hard to find men who like the beach and who'd want that.

 

SR, you and I probably have a lot in common. I too grew up in a very abusive childhood. It sets the stage for life unless we can get over it. I remember walking in on my abuser having sex with his girlfriend and crying my eyes out because in my mind, I'd been replaced by her. THATS the kind of screwing with your head that it does.

 

I didnt move on to an abusive marriage, but I did latch on to the first man that showed me any attention and married him. Stayed married to him for 14 yrs even though I didnt love him. He was safe.

 

I thought xmm walked on water. He talked to me in all the right ways. I soaked up every bit of the attention and gobbled up the crumbs. He was the first man I ever really loved and would have done anything for him. But while he was good at telling me things, he gave me nothing real when I look back at it. A few stolen nights here and there? Texts all day.

 

I'm in the same place now with dating and meeting someone. They never seem to add up. I do online dating too and you would not believe some of the experiences I've had! I ended up deleting one profile and starting over. I completely changed the way I communicate with men on there. I dont respond to anyone that can't take the time to send me a thought out initial message. If sex comes up in the first messages, I'm finished talking to them. If they ask me to "hang out", I let them know my time is more valuable to me than that and no, thank you. It plainly says on my profile that if you want to get to know me, ask me out. I do not "hang out at my place", "meet up and see what happens", or any variety of that. Pick a date (not the same day), pick a place (in public), and contact me the morning of the date. It also says clearly that I'm looking for a long term relationship, nothing less. Be picky, be ruthless with delete and block, and don't be afraid to don't send the first message. A lot of the good guys won't message first anymore because they've been shot down too many times.

 

I have a date tonight that I'm excited about. He actually picked the place and everything. He paid attention to the part where I said what my favorite food was even!

 

You and I both have to realize though that this goes much further in depth than just how we're dating. This goes to that core of what we think we're worth and how we portray that. I wish I had the answers.

[Goodbye]

Thanks Ian, my age is 45. This means Ive lived long enough to have experienced life, learned from it and have enough experience to know which lessons I may never learn. My looks are ok for someone my age.

Besides, this attracting the right person thing isn't about looks, its about inner aura.

I did have a very abusive childhood and then a very abusive domestic violence type marriage. After that marriage, I never experienced physical abuse again, but I did attract the mentally abusive, uncaring type.

After each relationship, I would go talk to a counselor. Sometimes I talked to the counselor while I was in the relationship, so I have developed some skills.

When I was 39, I left the town Id lived in forever and made a big move. I found a job I like and found a cottage on the beach. So, that part of my life is great. I love where I live and love the new friends I'd made here.

Two years after moving here, I met MM. He actually is SO much better than anyone else Ive been with. I just don't have the best frame of reference, so when I got some bread crumbs from him, it felt good because I wasn't used to getting anything but abuse.

Since our break up, I have tried the online dating thing. I haven't met anyone bad, its just I did meet a lot of needy guys who were looking for a second income or who simply wanted anyone they could find to fill a void. Ive yet to meet anyone online that I had chemistry with.

 

I agree that I need to stop being so eager. I do need to pull away and not be a seeker. It may also help if I wouldn't act so damn grateful for every drink a man buys me or for every sliver of attention. I get.

 

There's still some part of me that feels like I wont master the finding love lesson in this lifetime. I do have some accomplishments... I live on the beach, but it shouldn't be that hard to find men who like the beach and who'd want that.

 

 

I wish I had some advice. But, I don't. I'm right there with you. I'm also 45 and realizing I've allowed myself only breadcrumbs, and that comes from within. I wonder if there is enough time left to fix my life. Hang in there. I think many of us can relate to your post and thanks for putting it out there.

[TaintedLuv]

I'm 30 and I can say alot of those things about myself. Thing is most men are just looking for an easy lay. So please don't place how valuable you are based on what they want from you. I still struggle with that point myself. I put myself out there and most of the time, they just want to get some. Paying $30/mo for a dating site cheaper than buying x amount of drinks for a bunch of women at a bar and hoping one will be drunk enough to take home. Dating isn't easy when you know what you want. I also ask myself how these women do it. I have no idea. I've dated alot in my early 20s then something happened to my game when I fell head over heels for my MM. I never considered myself needy but damn everything he gave me seemed amazing. He made me feel so loved and maybe I was starving when I met him and had no idea. Regardless I let him destroy me. I do feel worthless to him. I gave everything I had but what I'm starting to realize is it doesn't matter what I'm worth to him. All that matters is the worth I'm placing on myself. If a man can't see it then HE'S not worth it.

 

Most of the women in my life are single and struggling with finding men. I always tell them to just get out there and enjoy their lives without stressing over whether or not they will meet someone everytime we go out. I always say "it only takes a moment to meet someone that will be part of the rest of your life so just live your life and enjoy the rest of your moments".

 

Anyway ill stop rambling on now. Wish you inner peace.

[GreySkyMorning]

Why would we think these men are so worth it anyway? While he's on that camping trip or whatever, he's still a cake eater. Sure, my xmm bought his wife flowers and birthday cakes and took her to dinner, which he never or rarely did with me. At the same time he was doing all those things, he was texting me, his lover!! What kind of man does that make him and how worthwhile does he really feel his wife is?? It's pathetic. I don't want a man that is capable of looking at someone they love and doing that to them, regardless of how he made my toes curl. And if a single man never bought me flowers or a birthday cake and only took me out to dinner three times in two years, he'd be sitting on the curb!!!

[SolG]

Hi SR :-)

 

As an OW, I'm not even remotely qualified to give dating or love advice! So I'll refrain from that side of things. But your circumstances do remind me of a stage in my life.

 

I remember the first Christmas after my husband and I separated. I was down and lost and felt alone. Well meaning folk kept telling me that I needed to get back out there on the market. But I was no where near ready for that in any way.

 

Then I had this moment. I was on a road trip to visit my family interstate. Loaded up with camping gear, on a quiet stretch of country road in the middle of nowhere on a beautiful day with music blaring. And it just struck me that I was completely and utterly free! I didn't have to answer to anyone. I could stop and start when I wanted. Take any route I wanted. Take as long as I wanted. Do pretty much whatever I wanted on that journey, and in life. It really was a magic moment and an important realisation that led to a really great period in my life. I was all alone and by myself and loved it :-) (Obviously subsequent to that I met MM and things changed somewhat.)

 

I'm just wondering if you've ever had that kind of time in your life? Time for just you, about you. Not about anyone else, or getting ready for someone else, or finding someone else. I'm just wondering if you might like that type of time. If it might be good for you?

[scatterd]

I am not going to tell you how to date but I want you to read what I experienced. I was married very young to an abusive man and we divorced. After that I formed a habit of finding the same kind of man. Time and time again it happened. It was draining and a dark time for me. I had to dig deep inside myself to figure out why. I found I was attracted to the same kind of man and I did not think the nice guy would want me. I took time off from dating and learned to love myself and I had to give the kind of guy I was not interested in a try. When I was not looking a nice man I never would of went out with before caught my attention. I went out with him and he was nicer and had more morals then the others. I married him we have been together 20 years. We have had problems but he never hits me like the others. I think that sometimes we can meet the wrong person and we loose our confidence and worth.Taking time off to find ourself and learning to love our selfs helps. People can since a person with low self esteem and some take advantage of it. when you love your self and know your worth it shows and excepting anything less then what you want is unacceptable. When you get to that point that is when the right people become more interesting and they find you to be worth the time. We search for what we think were worth and we are treated that way too. That is what I found out that applied to me. Maybe you can find what works for you and remember your worth.I wish you peace and love in your life.

[georgia girl]

I do live my life as if bread crumbs are all im worth. I've had counseling, group therapy, read spiritual crap, practiced every meditation and affirmation possible and yet somewhere in me is this damaged spirit that thinks I cant get more than bread crumbs.

 

Ive seen it all my life too, even w the guys before xMM, I wanted more, but I was so grateful for everything they threw at me. I remember being grateful to hear the sound of some guy's voice, as he called me at midnight for a booty call...that's how bad ive been,

 

I don't know how to fix it. Ive tried to fix it and I do now carry myself "as if" , as in I pretend to be a woman who expects the best, but then the best never comes.

 

Ive put 100% effort into dating since the initial break up w MM and each of these single guys offered me less than MM did, if that's possible.

 

I had the attitude that it was ok if MM was taking his wife camping or on this trip, Id find a guy to do that for me. Thing is, I didn't. I got a lot of "do ya wanna come overs" and met a few guys who were looking for someone to move in w then and split the bills.

 

I wish I could be hypnotized or something and have a spell put on me to where I attract the kind of men who will love me.

 

I look at other women who have that and I think, How do they do it..its now how they look, its what they project. Could I truly be so damaged inside that I'll never project what its like to be loved?

 

 

Sunset Red,

 

I could have posted this! And in October, I'll celebrate my fourth anniversary to the love of my life.

 

I was one of the world's oldest original brides. My joke was that I "sat out Round One." In reality, I felt like I was a loser magnet who could not attract the right guy and that all of the good ones were taken.

 

I read self-help books, I lamented to my girlfriends, I got hung up on men not interested in me, I went out with the wrong men and, if you had a fear of commitment, then I found you irresistible. I took breaks from dating, dated successively, then took more breaks... it was an adventure in doing things wrong.

 

So, how did I meet the right guy when I was in my late 30's.

 

To be honest, I did it nearly against my own will. When I met my husband, I liked him, was very physically attracted to him, but I was hung up on another guy. Still, he asked me out, was nice to me (much nicer than the guy I was hung up on), and we always had a nice time.

 

So, I decided he was my Mr. Now. Not my Mr. Right nor even Mr. Right Now. My Mr. Now.

 

And I totally chilled. Because I wasn't that into him, he pursued me. And he pursued me in ways that were very flattering, charming, sweet and sexy. In a very personal way that I can't/won't share here, I one day woke up and realized, "I love this guy." What I also knew was that he loved me in a very quiet, confident way. I also knew that he'd never let me down and that, in a way I hadn't yet understood up until then, he would always provide for me/us. (And I'm not meaning financially. I'm meaning in much more subtle ways. He ALWAYS makes me serve myself before he'll take food from the table; he always puts my car in the garage; he always does the home repairs that we discover together... just those little simple gestures of providing.)

 

I also realized that he was the very first man who had ever stood up to me. Not in an argumentive way. But, in a firm, non-debatable way. (And he was right at least 75% of the time... which still ticks me off.)

 

In retrospect, what I wish someone would have told me - and I would have listened to - what I know now:

 

1) Pick someone first who will pursue you in a friendly, non-threatening and honorable way.

 

2) Don't get invested. Make him prove himself. If you are the right person for him, he wants that opportunity and that helps him determine that you are the person for him. It also helps you to get to know HIM. Not this person you've idealized in your mind and assigned these wonderful qualities to, but the real guy.

 

3) Set standards and be prepared to walk away. This is absolutely critical. When you do this, you empower yourself and establish an equal balance of power in your relationship. When a partner gives up all of their standards for another partner, the lack of balance destroys the relationship.

 

4) Enjoy the ride. Once I relaxed and just let it happen and didn't need to move too quickly from one stage to another, it opened up a world of relationship opportunities for us. The pace we took helped us to establish our partnership. Looking back, I probably could have had a good partnership with some of my other exes, but I never gave the relationship the real time it needed to cure.

 

5) Choose someone who will put you first. Enough said.

 

Take care. I was you. I know lonely. I could have written that book and all of the book in the series. I am so incredibly grateful for where I am now (and somewhat on a mission to help others get there).

 

Hugs, GG

[Lokie]

Hi PR,

 

I really feel for you and can empathize. I'm sure you are a lovely woman with a big heart who deserves an amazing, available man.

 

I just wanted to offer my support.

 

Lokie

[GettingOver]

Sunset Red,

 

I could have posted this! And in October, I'll celebrate my fourth anniversary to the love of my life.

 

I was one of the world's oldest original brides. My joke was that I "sat out Round One." In reality, I felt like I was a loser magnet who could not attract the right guy and that all of the good ones were taken.

 

I read self-help books, I lamented to my girlfriends, I got hung up on men not interested in me, I went out with the wrong men and, if you had a fear of commitment, then I found you irresistible. I took breaks from dating, dated successively, then took more breaks... it was an adventure in doing things wrong.

 

So, how did I meet the right guy when I was in my late 30's.

 

To be honest, I did it nearly against my own will. When I met my husband, I liked him, was very physically attracted to him, but I was hung up on another guy. Still, he asked me out, was nice to me (much nicer than the guy I was hung up on), and we always had a nice time.

 

So, I decided he was my Mr. Now. Not my Mr. Right nor even Mr. Right Now. My Mr. Now.

 

And I totally chilled. Because I wasn't that into him, he pursued me. And he pursued me in ways that were very flattering, charming, sweet and sexy. In a very personal way that I can't/won't share here, I one day woke up and realized, "I love this guy." What I also knew was that he loved me in a very quiet, confident way. I also knew that he'd never let me down and that, in a way I hadn't yet understood up until then, he would always provide for me/us. (And I'm not meaning financially. I'm meaning in much more subtle ways. He ALWAYS makes me serve myself before he'll take food from the table; he always puts my car in the garage; he always does the home repairs that we discover together... just those little simple gestures of providing.)

 

I also realized that he was the very first man who had ever stood up to me. Not in an argumentive way. But, in a firm, non-debatable way. (And he was right at least 75% of the time... which still ticks me off.)

 

In retrospect, what I wish someone would have told me - and I would have listened to - what I know now:

 

1) Pick someone first who will pursue you in a friendly, non-threatening and honorable way.

 

2) Don't get invested. Make him prove himself. If you are the right person for him, he wants that opportunity and that helps him determine that you are the person for him. It also helps you to get to know HIM. Not this person you've idealized in your mind and assigned these wonderful qualities to, but the real guy.

 

3) Set standards and be prepared to walk away. This is absolutely critical. When you do this, you empower yourself and establish an equal balance of power in your relationship. When a partner gives up all of their standards for another partner, the lack of balance destroys the relationship.

 

4) Enjoy the ride. Once I relaxed and just let it happen and didn't need to move too quickly from one stage to another, it opened up a world of relationship opportunities for us. The pace we took helped us to establish our partnership. Looking back, I probably could have had a good partnership with some of my other exes, but I never gave the relationship the real time it needed to cure.

 

5) Choose someone who will put you first. Enough said.

 

Take care. I was you. I know lonely. I could have written that book and all of the book in the series. I am so incredibly grateful for where I am now (and somewhat on a mission to help others get there).

 

Hugs, GG

I've read quite a lot in here and I find most of the things very supportive. The only thing that I've noticed is that the majority is trying to dig very deep inside themselves and find the reasons for WHY this or that is happenig. I generally agree that you do have to have self-esteem, you do have to have boundaries, you do have to have self-respect and you do have to love yourself and learn from your experience. But I also think that some things are happening in our lives cause they were or are meant to be. Georgia girl was meant to meet her Mr. Now at that time particular time that can seem late in comparison to average but was definitely worth waiting. Some people never couple up. Some are lucky to meet sweet partners early in life and don't have to go through all the "teaching" experience. I just think that there is not always a reson inside yourself that you don't have a right partner right now or so. Some people find their partners when they loose hope at all. When they stop working on themselves, read spiritual crap, go to therapy, etc. Together with that I do agree with georgia girl with regard to general advices she gave.