janedoe67 Posted August 20, 2013 Posted August 20, 2013 call me old fashioned, but IMHO once you cheat once, even just once on your SO you have forever earned the black mark of being a cheater. I am assuming you assign this theory to all transgression, right? once one has told a lie, they are always a liar Once one has been hurtful they are always a hurter Once someone has stolen anything they are always a thief Once someone has had an angry outburst they are always angry Once someone has broken any law they are always a criminal Once someone has been self-righteous they are always self-righteous Once someone has been bitter they are always bitter 1
ian1966 Posted August 21, 2013 Posted August 21, 2013 Here's my "formula" for assessing the risk of a cheater re-cheating Of course if you get away with it completely you are destined to repeat the behavior, so these really wont help - unless you look inside yourself and possibly discuss with a counselor (which you won't). I see the risk of a person re-cheating proportional to combined value of these variables Consequences (greater consequences, lower risk) This one is simple, greater consequences impact the cheaters life in a much more profound way and are therefore more likely to leave a much greater "stain" on their mind when they think of the experience and any possible future experience. Time passed since cheating ended (more time, greater risk) (This one is general, in terms of the 'sting' being lost in time and having less of a role in the decision to re-cheat, "it was so long ago, she'll never think I would do that again") However, if a cheater has "reformed" and is completely clear in their mind that the whole sordid mess was regretted very much, then time can work in the opposite manner by basically "leaving it in the past". It depends where you are at in this regard. Length of affair (longer = greater risk) (This has a bearing on consequences. A LTA is much harder to deal with by the BS, and often results in more severe consequences) (You become 'comfortable' in the affair and integrate it into your life, so it feels 'normal' and life goes on... so cheating becomes part and parcel of who you are, and becomes much harder to stop doing forever.) This one affects the risk of getting caught though, as people become sloppy over time with their safegaurds.) Learning from these forums (more you learn = lower risk) (knowledge, reading others experiences, asking your own questions etc arms you with knowledge you can use to see future warning signs) Cheaters opinion of current situation with W/GF This is debatable, but I tend to think that a lot of cheaters justify their actions by placing blame on the "sub-standard" home life. They will blame "somethng missing", be it sex, communication, whatever... Who is the Initiator? This one does not directly affect the "formula" but may play a role in adjusting the severity of the consequences part. If the cheater chases the OW/OM, this is worse, as he/she is proactively seeking the affair and has poor moral wiring. Yes so does the cheater if the OW/OM chases them, but at least they (and will) claim "victim" status in a sense and this MAY be slightly more appeasing to the BS, and POSSIBLY lessen the consequences. (I speak that one from experience, as I was chased). Did you see a counselor? They can really help, and hence eliminate/mitigate any future chance of you "re-offending". Things such as learning to associate the cheating experience with very negative thoughts/emotions (often from consequences) and teaching the value and importance of morals and self-worth. Theres probably more but I gotta do some work...
ian1966 Posted August 21, 2013 Posted August 21, 2013 call me old fashioned, but IMHO once you cheat once, even just once on your SO you have forever earned the black mark of being a cheater. I don't believe in the simplicity of that statement. What is this "black mark"? You are simply saying "once you have cheated you will have always cheated", which is like saying 1 will always have equaled 1. True, but meaningless. Human beings are MUCH MORE COMPLEX than that statement implies. They CAN CHANGE COMPLETELY, we are not FIXED in our ways.. "A leopard doesn't change its spots" is another one, which may apply to some people certainly (who don't want to really try to learn about themselves on a deeper level and make ingrained thinking/emotional association modifications that result in external behavioral changes) I cheated. I learnt from these forums. I spoke to a counselor. I reconciled completely with my SO. I would NEVER EVER EVER EVER CHEAT AGAIN. Sounds like you were cheated on, perhaps by the same person more than once? Or by separate people? If so I feel for you.
So happy together Posted August 21, 2013 Posted August 21, 2013 call me old fashioned, but IMHO once you cheat once, even just once on your SO you have forever earned the black mark of being a cheater. You are correct. I'm sure you've never made a mistake. Remember that lie you told your mother when you came home late from the dance when you were seventeen? You shall now, and will always be christened... a liar. Good luck with that. Pretty sad that you think you could never learn or grow from an experience. That you've no aspirations to better yourself as a person. Certainly you can see the fallacy in that statement? I'm not calling you a liar, by the way, just making a point.
velvette Posted August 21, 2013 Posted August 21, 2013 I think cheating is usually a coping mechanism or a way to self medicate. People can change if they want to and do the work to understand themselves and why they cheating as well as learning new behaviors to prevent future cheating. All that being said, ingrained patterns of behavior run deep and the proclivity to cheat may always be there. Like a sober alchoholic theres always the chance for relapse.
jwi71 Posted August 21, 2013 Posted August 21, 2013 Do you think once a cheater, always a cheater? Yes and no. You have, and I say without malice, earned the title cheater - as in one who has broken a promise/vow of exclusivity. In that sense - yes, always a cheater. However I find that such an unfair and incomplete definition - of a human - usually a single action does not solely define us. You're cheating does not define you. It is merely a piece of the puzzle. I also wonder what you think about coming back from cheating in a M It does not matter what I think. What matters is what your H thinks. What matters is what you think. And here begins the rub...how can we (meaning your M and you and your H) truly know what your H thinks if he is unaware? I feel guilty, but I also don't know if I should just live with it and move on, or if I should tell my H. To be truly intimate one must remove barriers between them - not add them. Here, the secret betrayal IS a barrier between you. Every lie (of omission) further insulates you from him. Further pushes intimacy away. Every memory tainted by the secret. In a very real sense - you either deal with the guilt (tell) or learn to anesthetize your soul so that the guilt no longer affects you. Both are scary but for me, to learn how to "ignore" guilt is ...disturbing. I think that by telling him I am just trying to rid myself of the guilt and destroying him in the process (not sure if that's fair). Agreed. You are telling to soothe your own guilt. Do you want to improve intimacy? Face whatever led you to the A? What is your goal? What was the goal of the A (aka what unfulfilled need did it satisfy?) What is the goal of telling? Of not telling? Ultimately, the decision is yours - and so are the consequences. Personally, as a BS, I would tell. What was MOST damaging for me - and I believe for most BS is not the A itself but the layers of deception around it (broken trust). By telling, YOU lay a cornerstone of "I want to be honest and rebuild trust". Having your A discovered by him denies you this powerful gesture. If you are really indecisive...tell a friend or family member - or seek out IC/MC to help. No matter what you decide and how this shakes out - this one act does NOT define you or determine your worth.
aliveagain Posted August 21, 2013 Posted August 21, 2013 Most alcoholics I know still refer to themselves as alcoholics even if their last drink was 20 years ago. What do you call a killer who only killed once? No matter what anyone thinks about my comment(I want to be totally honest) I ask women I date more than 3 times if they have ever cheated on a spouse. Their reply will influence my decision to take the relationship further. The more affluent they are the more they think like me. I will not settle again because there are so many honorable women out there, why compromise myself again? We all have choices. 1
pureevil Posted August 21, 2013 Posted August 21, 2013 Some men, and I mean some, they will think with the other head that is south of the border instead with their heart. So yea, once a cheater always a cheater. Also once a wife beater always a wife beater. Some women think that it good for a switch once in a blue moon, but think about STD's. Condoms, if used correctly, is only 99.99% effective. But there is a 0.01% of catching something from a cheater.
pureevil Posted August 21, 2013 Posted August 21, 2013 Yes and no. You have, and I say without malice, earned the title cheater - as in one who has broken a promise/vow of exclusivity. In that sense - yes, always a cheater. However I find that such an unfair and incomplete definition - of a human - usually a single action does not solely define us. You're cheating does not define you. It is merely a piece of the puzzle. It does not matter what I think. What matters is what your H thinks. What matters is what you think. And here begins the rub...how can we (meaning your M and you and your H) truly know what your H thinks if he is unaware? To be truly intimate one must remove barriers between them - not add them. Here, the secret betrayal IS a barrier between you. Every lie (of omission) further insulates you from him. Further pushes intimacy away. Every memory tainted by the secret. In a very real sense - you either deal with the guilt (tell) or learn to anesthetize your soul so that the guilt no longer affects you. Both are scary but for me, to learn how to "ignore" guilt is ...disturbing. Agreed. You are telling to soothe your own guilt. Do you want to improve intimacy? Face whatever led you to the A? What is your goal? What was the goal of the A (aka what unfulfilled need did it satisfy?) What is the goal of telling? Of not telling? Ultimately, the decision is yours - and so are the consequences. Personally, as a BS, I would tell. What was MOST damaging for me - and I believe for most BS is not the A itself but the layers of deception around it (broken trust). By telling, YOU lay a cornerstone of "I want to be honest and rebuild trust". Having your A discovered by him denies you this powerful gesture. If you are really indecisive...tell a friend or family member - or seek out IC/MC to help. No matter what you decide and how this shakes out - this one act does NOT define you or determine your worth. This is so true. True love does not hide the truth about you and your H. True love is understanding, joy, patience, kind, forgiving, UNCONDITIONAL LOVE is what wedding vows are. If you love your partner and your partner loves you, then tell then, "I'm sorry, and it's will never happen again." There is whats called the phone call or word of mouth. Try to see it in your H's shoes, what happens IF your H's buddy sees this MM and tells your M, 'Hey, I saw your W with that man over there', If your H truly loves you, he would rather hear it from his partner then his bowling buddy.
Artie Lang Posted August 21, 2013 Posted August 21, 2013 honestly, it doesn't really matter what we here on the boards think. you know why..... because it's not real life, per say. it's the stigma you have to deal with IRL, and people are relentless. they will ostracize you for bad behavior- it's that simple! i think you should divulge what's comfortable with you at the time. i also believe that if this relationship takes a serious turn, you should definitely come with the whole truth, as should he. could you imagine if someone comes up to this guy and tells him that they know you from "around the way" as a cheater? NOT GOOD! infidelity is a serious issue.
janedoe67 Posted August 21, 2013 Posted August 21, 2013 As Mark Antony said: "The evil men do lives after them. The good is oft interred with their bones." It's human nature. We'd rather hold onto the bad in people than acknowledge the good. it makes us feel better about ourselves. 1
Got it Posted August 21, 2013 Posted August 21, 2013 Here's my take. I don't agree with the "Once a cheater, always a cheater." concept. People learn from these kinds of events. But what they learn from it will determine their future path. If the affair was conducted "successfully", and the WS was never discovered, never had to do any of the hard work of recovering their marriage from the damage done by the affair, and never really had to 'earn' their way back into the marriage...personally I feel that this doesn't bode well. They can view this as a useful tool in their belt. When they find themselves less than happy with their marriage again later at some point (for whatever reason)...they can easily turn back to infidelity as their coping mechanism again. If the affair was NOT 'successful'...if it was discovered, and the WS opted to stay and recover the marriage, they had to deal with the damage done by their actions. They see first hand the emotional devestation created by what they've done, and they have to help this person rebuild and recover from them. They have to learn how to rebuild trust after they've destroyed it. They feel the pain of going through all of this. They learn it's not a valuable tool. They learn not to use it again. So from MY perspective..."Once a cheater, always a cheater."...isn't true. But..."Twice a cheater, always a cheater." most likely is. Once can be a painful learning experience. Twice is likely a personality trait. Given that...the OP is sitting at the crux of things right now in her marriage. She can learn from what she's done, deal with consequences, and probably not do it again. She can hide it from her H, bury it under the rug...and risk doing it again. But I can pretty much garauntee that ther AP...the MM who has now done this twice...will absolutely do it again. But if people learn from all kinds of events this is saying that even if the affair is "successful" doesn't mean that they will use that coping mechanism again. One can not get caught and/or not work on the marriage, etc. but still look at how to change things for themselves. What you are saying is that to "get better" one must have an external force forced upon them and must have negative external forces happen to them to make the change. But it is always touted that one needs to make changes for themselves not because of someone/something else. So based on that one can/could decide that while the affair did not blow up in their face it still didn't result in the outcome that they most desired (whatever that may be). Regardless of what happens, a person needs to make the change for themselves. It shouldn't be about the BS, family or friends needing to inflict the consequences and punishment upon them. It should be because regardless of everything else (not having the BS, being alone, etc.) the WS does not want to use that as a coping mechanism in the future because at the end of the day it wasn't what they liked/wanted for themselves/etc.
Got it Posted August 21, 2013 Posted August 21, 2013 Here's my "formula" for assessing the risk of a cheater re-cheating Of course if you get away with it completely you are destined to repeat the behavior, so these really wont help - unless you look inside yourself and possibly discuss with a counselor (which you won't). I see the risk of a person re-cheating proportional to combined value of these variables Consequences (greater consequences, lower risk) This one is simple, greater consequences impact the cheaters life in a much more profound way and are therefore more likely to leave a much greater "stain" on their mind when they think of the experience and any possible future experience. Time passed since cheating ended (more time, greater risk) (This one is general, in terms of the 'sting' being lost in time and having less of a role in the decision to re-cheat, "it was so long ago, she'll never think I would do that again") However, if a cheater has "reformed" and is completely clear in their mind that the whole sordid mess was regretted very much, then time can work in the opposite manner by basically "leaving it in the past". It depends where you are at in this regard. Length of affair (longer = greater risk) (This has a bearing on consequences. A LTA is much harder to deal with by the BS, and often results in more severe consequences) (You become 'comfortable' in the affair and integrate it into your life, so it feels 'normal' and life goes on... so cheating becomes part and parcel of who you are, and becomes much harder to stop doing forever.) This one affects the risk of getting caught though, as people become sloppy over time with their safegaurds.) Learning from these forums (more you learn = lower risk) (knowledge, reading others experiences, asking your own questions etc arms you with knowledge you can use to see future warning signs) Cheaters opinion of current situation with W/GF This is debatable, but I tend to think that a lot of cheaters justify their actions by placing blame on the "sub-standard" home life. They will blame "somethng missing", be it sex, communication, whatever... Who is the Initiator? This one does not directly affect the "formula" but may play a role in adjusting the severity of the consequences part. If the cheater chases the OW/OM, this is worse, as he/she is proactively seeking the affair and has poor moral wiring. Yes so does the cheater if the OW/OM chases them, but at least they (and will) claim "victim" status in a sense and this MAY be slightly more appeasing to the BS, and POSSIBLY lessen the consequences. (I speak that one from experience, as I was chased). Did you see a counselor? They can really help, and hence eliminate/mitigate any future chance of you "re-offending". Things such as learning to associate the cheating experience with very negative thoughts/emotions (often from consequences) and teaching the value and importance of morals and self-worth. Theres probably more but I gotta do some work... Why this belief that if you get away with it you will cheat again? Do you feel that you would have if you had gotten away with it? I find that sad because that, to me, you aren't really bought into the whys on why it isn't the healthiest option but more that the ripple effect if caught is too much. So it takes the stick over your head to "keep you in line". I left my spouse and didn't get caught but that doesn't mean I will do it again in my current marriage. One, because I did the above to work on myself and because while I did it, I also recognized that I was wrong in certain assumptions and I don't have the energy for this option any longer, the other options are just easier. And since humans are by nature lazy creatures, the easiest way tends to be the most utilized. And having an affair, against for me and my mental disposition was not the easiest. I think each person has to figure out their own whys. But it doesn't and shouldn't take getting caught to get your thinking. 1
Owl Posted August 21, 2013 Posted August 21, 2013 But if people learn from all kinds of events this is saying that even if the affair is "successful" doesn't mean that they will use that coping mechanism again. One can not get caught and/or not work on the marriage, etc. but still look at how to change things for themselves. What you are saying is that to "get better" one must have an external force forced upon them and must have negative external forces happen to them to make the change. But it is always touted that one needs to make changes for themselves not because of someone/something else. So based on that one can/could decide that while the affair did not blow up in their face it still didn't result in the outcome that they most desired (whatever that may be). Regardless of what happens, a person needs to make the change for themselves. It shouldn't be about the BS, family or friends needing to inflict the consequences and punishment upon them. It should be because regardless of everything else (not having the BS, being alone, etc.) the WS does not want to use that as a coping mechanism in the future because at the end of the day it wasn't what they liked/wanted for themselves/etc. People rarely, very rarely make changes because of internal decisions. They nearly always make changes because of outside influences. As far as your last paragraph about "it shouldn't be about (others)...needing to inflict the consequences...". All I could think was "woulda, coulda, shoulda". It SHOULDN'T require that...but it usually does. It SHOULDN'T get to the point of cheating to begin with...but it does. You can't base your life on "shouldn't". All people can do is deal with the reality around them. The BS shouldn't have to watch the WS suffer the consequences for their actions. The BS shouldn't have to feel the pain of the affair, either. The WS shouldn't have cheated to begin with. But...that's what happened, and often the subsequent actions are what are required as well...regardless of whether or not they should or should not have to happen. 3
janedoe67 Posted August 21, 2013 Posted August 21, 2013 Yes I do.... So what labels do you have for yourself.....unless of course you are the first sinless man since Jesus... "For whoever keeps the whole law yet stumbles at one point is guilty of breaking all of it." 2
Got it Posted August 21, 2013 Posted August 21, 2013 People rarely, very rarely make changes because of internal decisions. They nearly always make changes because of outside influences. As far as your last paragraph about "it shouldn't be about (others)...needing to inflict the consequences...". All I could think was "woulda, coulda, shoulda". It SHOULDN'T require that...but it usually does. It SHOULDN'T get to the point of cheating to begin with...but it does. You can't base your life on "shouldn't". All people can do is deal with the reality around them. The BS shouldn't have to watch the WS suffer the consequences for their actions. The BS shouldn't have to feel the pain of the affair, either. The WS shouldn't have cheated to begin with. But...that's what happened, and often the subsequent actions are what are required as well...regardless of whether or not they should or should not have to happen. If it takes needing to be patrolled, babysat, and parented to make you tow the line then you were never going to commit to change. You have to want it for yourself first and foremost. I am not basing my life on Shouldn't. And what reality people are dealing with. That wasn't the point of my post. My point was if it takes X, then you may not really be committed to Y. And one doesn't need the be patrolled, watched, or babysat and can actually still decide to make the changes necessary because that is what they feel is right for them.
Owl Posted August 21, 2013 Posted August 21, 2013 (edited) If it takes needing to be patrolled, babysat, and parented to make you tow the line then you were never going to commit to change. You have to want it for yourself first and foremost. If it takes that long term, I'd agree. But if it takes that to knock you off your pedestal and force you to take stock of your actions and learn from them...that's a whole different thing. And...it worked in my case. I've not "patrolled, babysat, and parented" my wife for several years now. But during/immediately after the affair, I absolutely did. And as stated...it worked. Nor does she hold any anger with me over it. I get that you don't agree...and that's ok. I am not basing my life on Shouldn't. And what reality people are dealing with. That wasn't the point of my post. My point was if it takes X, then you may not really be committed to Y. And one doesn't need the be patrolled, watched, or babysat and can actually still decide to make the changes necessary because that is what they feel is right for them. As I said...the whole "patrolled, babysat, and parented" thing isn't anything anyone should sign up for long term. Here's my thought for you...if being "patrolled, babysat, and parented" was such a horrible thing for the WS...they'd have left rather than be subjected to it. That's something so many people wanna forget here...they never lose the choice to leave if they find those conditions unacceptable. But most often, they don't. They choose to stay, and agree to those terms for as long as the BS feels they need it to happen until trust is rebuilt, and the relationship recovered and rebuilt. It's a joint decision...not a unilateral one. One can't be "patrolled, babysat, and parented" without consent...or else they can just leave to be with the OW/OM. If they choose to stay...usually that is consent to doing so under those conditions. Edited August 21, 2013 by Owl 1
So happy together Posted August 21, 2013 Posted August 21, 2013 If it takes that long term, I'd agree. But if it takes that to knock you off your pedestal and force you to take stock of your actions and learn from them...that's a whole different thing. And...it worked in my case. I've not "patrolled, babysat, and parented" my wife for several years now. But during/immediately after the affair, I absolutely did. And as stated...it worked. Nor does she hold any anger with me over it. I get that you don't agree...and that's ok. As I said...the whole "patrolled, babysat, and parented" thing isn't anything anyone should sign up for long term. Here's my thought for you...if being "patrolled, babysat, and parented" was such a horrible thing for the WS...they'd have left rather than be subjected to it. That's something so many people wanna forget here...they never lose the choice to leave if they find those conditions unacceptable. But most often, they don't. They choose to stay, and agree to those terms for as long as the BS feels they need it to happen until trust is rebuilt, and the relationship recovered and rebuilt. It's a joint decision...not a unilateral one. One can't be "patrolled, babysat, and parented" without consent...or else they can just leave to be with the OW/OM. If they choose to stay...usually that is consent to doing so under those conditions. Owl, if someone tried to manipulate me in such a way, I would lose ALL respect for them. I understand it worked for you, but if it were me, it would be a no go for sure. I am capable of making my choices and, as Got_it, believe that the decisions I make regarding myself will be the right ones. If not, I move on. I also don't subscribe to my 'doing the right thing' being pushed by outward influences. It only works if the person wants to change inside, but if the person wants to change inside without the outward push, it works too. So you see where the REAL change happens.
Owl Posted August 21, 2013 Posted August 21, 2013 Owl, if someone tried to manipulate me in such a way, I would lose ALL respect for them. I understand it worked for you, but if it were me, it would be a no go for sure. I am capable of making my choices and, as Got_it, believe that the decisions I make regarding myself will be the right ones. If not, I move on. I also don't subscribe to my 'doing the right thing' being pushed by outward influences. It only works if the person wants to change inside, but if the person wants to change inside without the outward push, it works too. So you see where the REAL change happens. If that's how you feel...then you would/should leave the person attempting to do so immediately. I don't see an issue with that. And that's ok. It's clearly one of the choices that every WS has in this circumstance. Mine included. Had my wife shared your views, she absolutely had the option to proceed with the seperation/divorce. Heck, she could have gone ahead and left to live with OM, had she opted to, and had he still been willing to take her in (I don't know). But...if the WS chooses to stay and reconcile under these conditions...that's an indicator on how willing they are to work things out and rebuild the marriage. The "real" changes occur in situations such as I've described as well. If they choose to leave rather than accept those conditions...they're not changing within, they're changing their environment without instead. 1
So happy together Posted August 21, 2013 Posted August 21, 2013 If that's how you feel...then you would/should leave the person attempting to do so immediately. I don't see an issue with that. And that's ok. It's clearly one of the choices that every WS has in this circumstance. Mine included. Had my wife shared your views, she absolutely had the option to proceed with the seperation/divorce. Heck, she could have gone ahead and left to live with OM, had she opted to, and had he still been willing to take her in (I don't know). But...if the WS chooses to stay and reconcile under these conditions...that's an indicator on how willing they are to work things out and rebuild the marriage. The "real" changes occur in situations such as I've described as well. If they choose to leave rather than accept those conditions...they're not changing within, they're changing their environment without instead.[/QUOTE] Not necessarily. It's possible they're changing within and thus are changing their outside environment to match the now transformed inner. It doesn't necessarily mean 'no change'.
Owl Posted August 21, 2013 Posted August 21, 2013 Not necessarily. It's possible they're changing within and thus are changing their outside environment to match the now transformed inner. It doesn't necessarily mean 'no change'. Change within...change without. Not sure that the two are really seperate. And at the end of the day...it simply all boils down to their choice to STAY. If they choose to stay, they accept the requirements to stay. If they find them unacceptable...then they choose to leave. It's that simple. There's no way to force them to do something they don't want to do. It's simply giving them the choice. And there's nothing wrong with setting down those requirements as a condition to reconciliation. I think that's what tends to stick in many AP's craw on this...they feel these terms are unacceptable, or should be. And yet, when faced with them...often the WS accepts them and stays. 1
janedoe67 Posted August 21, 2013 Posted August 21, 2013 I cheated, and there is no justifiable reason for it, and the choice to do so is no one's responsibility but my own. I do not shrink from the truth of that. As far as what I AM... I am a mother, wife, professional, daughter, sister, Christian, woman.... And a FORMER wayward wife who is working to change in the real sense from the inside out and help my BH heal. I pity those who choose define a whole person based on one facet of their past. 1
tinker683 Posted August 21, 2013 Posted August 21, 2013 I think that's what tends to stick in many AP's craw on this...they feel these terms are unacceptable, or should be. And yet, when faced with them...often the WS accepts them and stays. I agree. Something WS's I think need to accept is that if they are going to stay with their BS, then they've got a looooong road ahead of them and that this is going to take quite a bit of time to recover from. Frankly, I wouldn't put my WS under such a condition, I'd just kick their ass to the curb, but that's just me.
Got it Posted August 21, 2013 Posted August 21, 2013 Change within...change without. Not sure that the two are really seperate. And at the end of the day...it simply all boils down to their choice to STAY. If they choose to stay, they accept the requirements to stay. If they find them unacceptable...then they choose to leave. It's that simple. There's no way to force them to do something they don't want to do. It's simply giving them the choice. And there's nothing wrong with setting down those requirements as a condition to reconciliation. I think that's what tends to stick in many AP's craw on this...they feel these terms are unacceptable, or should be. And yet, when faced with them...often the WS accepts them and stays. And there are the ones that stay and keep on doing whatever the heck they want to do. I am not sure if staying always means accepting the requirements to stay. Sometimes staying means I will do nothing and will force the other party to do all the work.
Owl Posted August 21, 2013 Posted August 21, 2013 And there are the ones that stay and keep on doing whatever the heck they want to do. I am not sure if staying always means accepting the requirements to stay. Sometimes staying means I will do nothing and will force the other party to do all the work. You're right...but we were talking about this in context of the BS ""patrolled, babysat, and parented" the WS as a requirement to stay, and whether or not that was acceptable. If they're being ""patrolled, babysat, and parented",they'll be caught out if they agreed to stay under those conditions and opt to continue to do things that they agreed not to do. You're right...sometimes it does mean that they'll stay and force the other party to work. And when that happens, it's up to the other party to decide if that's acceptable or not, and/or to take action if they feel it's unacceptable. Had my wife followed that path (and she tried that for the first few weeks)...I would have given up on attempting to reconcile and resumed seperation/divorce proceedings. She always had (still has to this day) the option to leave if she ever feels that I'm mistreating her in any way. And I retain the option to leave if I feel mistreated as well. No one can take that option away from the other person, short of chains/bars/illegal actions. So then in the situation you describe in your last sentence above...it becomes the BS's decision on whether they'll continue down that path or not, not the WS.
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