Consequences vs punishment

[ComingInHot]

Brilliant? Nahhhh. maybe creative.

Evil? Unfortunately yes.

 

It kind of creeps me out how twisted my subconscious can be...

[ComingInHot]

journee wrote, "...Not sure which way to go. I am not very hopeful in the future with him and really think it would be easier to start fresh with someone who doesn't have a history of cheating. Someone who doesn't have a history of cheating on not only me , but every person they have ever been with."

 

journee, your H sounds like he has personality issues/struggles and can be verbally abusive.

I have read hours upon hours upon hours on what a spouse can do to help their H/W who is verbally & mentally abusive.

 

Guess what all the books say? LEAVE.

 

This is one of the toughest things to deal with and help in others because there is such little proof to instigate consequences and accountability. The abusive spouse often will BELIEVE that it is their duty to find "fault" with their victim spouse and punish accordingly, while in their minds, "they can do now wrong. They are not a mean person, only being Forced to act this way due to their spouse etc...".

 

 

Now here's a kick in the face; You FINALLY LEAVE. The spouse "wakes" up. Changes his ways. It is warned that Because it became a pattern with you and lasted years, that YOU the victim spouse, are the one person that should Not go back even though he's changed his behavior as the "habit" is in place to easily cycle back with your personality.

So the One who gets the new and improved H, that may end up Never yelling or manipulating or Punishing or CHEATING is the next woman who gives him the chance.

 

FFFFfffff'd UP!

[ChooseTruth]

I think one of the hardest things about all this crap is doing and saying things you can't change. The WS that has to live with the purposeful cruelty, potential destruction of the family etc. And the BS who has to live with both their humiliation of the affair itself and their reaction to it.

 

Ultimately the harm has to be forgivable.

 

I do think that the consequence from the affair includes people knowing, telling the SO, and can include negative things like job loss, loss of friendships, and can also include dealing with a serious negative reaction (e.g. RA)

 

As a consequence of an affair, the WS should willingly do anything to help BS feel safe. At first un-remorseful WS may see those things may feel like punishment. Transparency, loss of email, text privacy, needing to update BS on activities, elimination of folks who are not friends of the marriage. Etc.

 

I think punishing is different. Punishing is done to try to even a score that can never be even.

 

It's possible that the only difference is the motivation.

 

Reading through this thread, this post had the most meaning for me. That's all I wanted, to feel SAFE. Everything I did was a desperate cry for her to do what would make me feel safe again so I could stay in the marriage and also keep my sanity. I couldn't feel safe if she was in class with OM...even if I was there. In a way I was trying to punish her into it, manipulating and controlling her so I could feel safe. It doesn't work, if they aren't willing to do what you need you can't make them.

 

Probably I should have done what seems to be more common among BWs...and that is just f-in leave. Oh well, I was a newb BH who was afraid to lose access to his daughter. Also my wife confessed and trickle truthed me so I thought she was remorseful and I had no clue what was really going on... Live and learn...if I ever have to go through something like this again I will know so much better what to look for and what to expect.

 

If the WS is unwilling to be honest, transparent, or separate themselves COMPLETELY from the AP, protect yourself, take the power in your life back, do it all at once, tell your friends, leave, move on with life. If they want to be back with you they can try to catch up. After all, they are the ones who put their foot out the back door already. They were just too cowardly to do it the honest way..through the front door...the one you just walked out of as a consequence. Any other way of "nicing" or MANIPULATING them back while letting them cake eat is just going to prolong drama and pain, eventually making YOU look like the bad guy when you finally come unglued(not that I did anything other than expose the truth, yell some, and bruise my hand on a headboard lol.). Hopefully I never need to use that lesson again.

[Journee]

journee wrote, "...Not sure which way to go. I am not very hopeful in the future with him and really think it would be easier to start fresh with someone who doesn't have a history of cheating. Someone who doesn't have a history of cheating on not only me , but every person they have ever been with."

 

journee, your H sounds like he has personality issues/struggles and can be verbally abusive.

I have read hours upon hours upon hours on what a spouse can do to help their H/W who is verbally & mentally abusive.

 

Guess what all the books say? LEAVE.

 

This is one of the toughest things to deal with and help in others because there is such little proof to instigate consequences and accountability. The abusive spouse often will BELIEVE that it is their duty to find "fault" with their victim spouse and punish accordingly, while in their minds, "they can do now wrong. They are not a mean person, only being Forced to act this way due to their spouse etc...".

 

 

Now here's a kick in the face; You FINALLY LEAVE. The spouse "wakes" up. Changes his ways. It is warned that Because it became a pattern with you and lasted years, that YOU the victim spouse, are the one person that should Not go back even though he's changed his behavior as the "habit" is in place to easily cycle back with your personality.

So the One who gets the new and improved H, that may end up Never yelling or manipulating or Punishing or CHEATING is the next woman who gives him the chance.

 

FFFFfffff'd UP!

 

 

 

It is a cluster eff. Thing is my H isn't verbally abusive... if anything I have been. My anger at the choices he has made ... well, made me feel like being mean I guess. I'm not proud of that. He acts as though he is not aware of how things make me feel. I should had called it quits 8 years ago around the time of his first penis leaving pants incident. I didn't and now I'm worse for the wear. I am struggling right now.

 

We have had some very troubling times. He has also been there when no one else has. It's sad. Honestly, I felt this was the best it could get. I have been raped , beaten , had a knife held to me. At least he wasn't doing that ish , right? It all sucks. I don't want to identify as a victim. I'm just lost. Utterly lost.

 

t/j over lol sorry.

[Coolit]

Pretty much everything in here is simply that the person who cheated feels bad about what they did--not bad enough to not have done it in the first place, but bad about it after the fact.

 

That's not really either punishment or a consequence.

 

That's simply called feeling guilt or remorse. A typical feeling to have if you've done something wrong (doesn't have to be cheating).

 

"Wow I didn't know I would feel that way if I did something very bad! What an astonishing surprise!"

 

What you are actually saying here is that prior to cheating, you simply didn't realize that doing something bad would or even could actually make you feel bad, and now it comes as something of a shock to you.

 

For me remorse is a valid consequence. I thought going into my A that I could handle the guilt and what my husband doesn't know won't hurt him. thought if thousands of other people could have "fun on the side" why couldn't I? Had my H kicked me to the curb I would've deserved that. But it would have been a temporary consequence. In time we would have reconciled or I may have fallen in love again. But the knowledge that I behaved like a slut will never change. I can never undo what I did. And that I will carry to my grave. So yes, this is a consequence. One I really didn't consider hard enough pre-affair.

 

 

I suspect however that the only thing you really feel bad about is having to end your affair.

 

you have very few posts to your name and most seem quite troll like. So if you had read a few more posts you'd realize that my affair was over before I confessed to my H. So this statement couldn't be more wrong. And I'm not even sure where you pulled that from.

 

Based on your insistence on calling the end of your relationship with the xMM's wife as "losing a friend," clearly, you are still not even close to being honest about your affair or your feelings with yourself or with anyone else.

 

She obviously wasn't your "friend" in any meaningful sense of the word, and if she ever was your "friend," you didn't "lose" her.

 

You assassinated her.

 

This lasy part makes no sense. How does me realizing I lost a friend over this mean I am not bein honest? Saying she was never my friend is like saying my h was never my husband... Sometimes we do crappy things to our friends.

 

Had I never engaged with xMM, his W and I would still say hi passing in the street. If we had hung out with them on normal terms, things would be a whole less tense at social gatherings. While this isn't as huge of a consequence as the others it is a part of the package I signed up for when I decided to cheat.

 

Don't feel too badly for her though. I by no means "assasinated" her. And the A did expose that she is not the kind of person I should be having for a friend. But if I hadn't behaved poorly in the first place, things would have been a lot different between us.

[Zenstudent]

This lasy part makes no sense. How does me realizing I lost a friend over this mean I am not bein honest? Saying she was never my friend is like saying my h was never my husband... Sometimes we do crappy things to our friends.

 

Had I never engaged with xMM, his W and I would still say hi passing in the street. If we had hung out with them on normal terms, things would be a whole less tense at social gatherings. While this isn't as huge of a consequence as the others it is a part of the package I signed up for when I decided to cheat.

 

Don't feel too badly for her though. I by no means "assasinated" her. And the A did expose that she is not the kind of person I should be having for a friend. But if I hadn't behaved poorly in the first place, things would have been a lot different between us.

Affairs and the aftermath reveal things about people and certainly make them change. What do you mean by the bolded part?

[ComingInHot]

journee wrote, "penis leaving pants incident"

 

ohmygosh OhMyGosh this is the saddest FUNNIEST thing I've read in a long time!!!!!!!!!!!!! :laugh::laugh:

[janedoe67]

Journee, your initial post about his A punishing You broke my heart. I know there was an element of that in my last A. It was something I have not directly addressed yet and I need to do so. Thank you for your openness; it has spurred me to make sure I put this on Friday's counseling thoughts.

[Coolit]

Affairs and the aftermath reveal things about people and certainly make them change. What do you mean by the bolded part?

 

When she knew that I was interested in her H she invited me to a threesome. It was more of a controlled enviroment where she got to watch me have sex with her H. This was done behind my H's back. Her H and I started it and things would have been very different if I hadn't let myself be drawn into dirty talk. I in no way blame her for my A. We were headed to having sex anyways she just fast tracked us. But her involvement knowing my H was in the dark takes away some of the "poor bs".

[BetrayedH]

Journee, your initial post about his A punishing You broke my heart. I know there was an element of that in my last A. It was something I have not directly addressed yet and I need to do so. Thank you for your openness; it has spurred me to make sure I put this on Friday's counseling thoughts.

 

It's not uncommon for affairs to have resentment for the betrayed spouse as a component. Unfortunately, it's common for us to try to accomodate the little quirks about our spouse and to not nag them about every little thing that bugs us. But that well-intentioned conflict-avoidance can eventually fuel resentment. And unresolved resentment will kill a relationship.

 

It's a difficult conversation to have when reconciling after an affair. Because while the source of the resentment needs to be addressed, too much focus can be placed on what the BS might have done wrong in the marriage, which can result in blameshifting your affair onto the BS or marital problems. Always keep in mind that different solutions could have been employed other than an affair. The choice to have an affair wasn't a good one and the wayward has to own that. It becomes a difficult line to walk but the reality is that resentment does need to be addressed in order to improve the marriage. You have to multi-task. The conclusion I've come to is that as soon as I find that I'm uncomfortable discussing something with my SO, that means I HAVE to discuss it. I will not allow unresolved resentment to grow.

 

Fortunately, most BSs are willing to acknowledge and work on marital problems following an affair. No marriage is perfect and we could all have done better in one way or another. If we're reconciling with you, we've got our hopes in an improved marriage or we wouldn't go thru the difficulty of reconciling. What we're not willing to do is accept ownership of the wayward's decision to cheat as a solution.

Edited August 21, 2013 by BetrayedH

[Journee]

Journee, your initial post about his A punishing You broke my heart. I know there was an element of that in my last A. It was something I have not directly addressed yet and I need to do so. Thank you for your openness; it has spurred me to make sure I put this on Friday's counseling thoughts.

 

 

 

It really drives home how people have so much going on inside of us at any given time. Just chaos lol Getting a handle on the madness before destruction is important. I'm starting to resent my WH in a way that I fear will spell the end. It's so good that you are going to address this. You sound like you are doing the best things you can to reconcile. I wish my H would acknowledge some of these truths and theories too.

 

Good luck to you!

[Steadfast]

This discussion has caused some old memories to resurface regarding the natural consequences of cheating verses punishment for it. Be it from the betrayed spouse or someone who loves that person. I considered this when it was all happening too. I recognized the challenges she faced as a result of her decisions, and because I knew her so well I was reasonably certain how she'd deal with them. And, I was right. Well, mostly anyway.

 

Considering the atmosphere in place while she was cooking all this up, I strongly feel her critical view of me (some justified, some manufactured) no doubt effected her decision making process when faced with the choice of staying in the relationship or leaving it. In fact, I'm pretty sure she was absolutely done when she cheated, but the devastating emotional fallout from me, the kids, our immediate family -heck, even her own- seemed to give her pause. She would waffle back and forth; pulled in one direction by guilt and those negatively affected, and in another by those who stood to 'gain' by her leaving. Because she was still home there's no question in my mind she saw me as the source of that guilt, and treated me accordingly.

 

Fact: There was no way she was going to give up the power in our relationship by having me hold this over her for the rest of our lives. The kids she could handle (or ignore) but my family was an overwhelming presence in her mind. Never mind the fact that my father was dying. In her eyes this just made it worse. She was piling pain on an already suffering family and the guilt caused her to manufacture more hard feelings...and run. And, run she did. Far, far away. Emotionally, at least.

 

This is where things start to get a bit foggy for me.

 

That was it by the way. The end of us. That, by virtue of me not trying to hold it together any longer. She ran free, I filed. I can say with reasonable certainty that this is when the 'punishment' stopped and the consequences started. I didn't see or talk to her for weeks on end. Very truly things changed drastically when I let her go. What she realized, felt, wanted or needed I have, or had no way of knowing. Well over a year after the divorce an unexpected call from my sobbing ex came, begging me to see her. By that time I was dating and feeling more like myself, so I did.

 

What did she learn? How does she see it all now? Hard to tell. She never expressed anything to answer those questions. Then again, I didn't ask. Could it be that I didn't want to be lied to again? I can say what I've learned, and much of that is shared in the posts I make here. I do worry about the long-term effects the divorce will have on our kids and I'm not happy about my displaced family, but I am happy and secure in knowing I'll never again trust the responsibility of my happiness to another person.

 

Consequences and punishment? It's likely one feels just like the other in time.

[BetrayedH]

This discussion has caused some old memories to resurface regarding the natural consequences of cheating verses punishment for it. Be it from the betrayed spouse or someone who loves that person. I considered this when it was all happening too. I recognized the challenges she faced as a result of her decisions, and because I knew her so well I was reasonably certain how she'd deal with them. And, I was right. Well, mostly anyway.

 

Considering the atmosphere in place while she was cooking all this up, I strongly feel her critical view of me (some justified, some manufactured) no doubt effected her decision making process when faced with the choice of staying in the relationship or leaving it. In fact, I'm pretty sure she was absolutely done when she cheated, but the devastating emotional fallout from me, the kids, our immediate family -heck, even her own- seemed to give her pause. She would waffle back and forth; pulled in one direction by guilt and those negatively affected, and in another by those who stood to 'gain' by her leaving. Because she was still home there's no question in my mind she saw me as the source of that guilt, and treated me accordingly.

 

Fact: There was no way she was going to give up the power in our relationship by having me hold this over her for the rest of our lives. The kids she could handle (or ignore) but my family was an overwhelming presence in her mind. Never mind the fact that my father was dying. In her eyes this just made it worse. She was piling pain on an already suffering family and the guilt caused her to manufacture more hard feelings...and run. And, run she did. Far, far away. Emotionally, at least.

 

This is where things start to get a bit foggy for me.

 

That was it by the way. The end of us. That, by virtue of me not trying to hold it together any longer. She ran free, I filed. I can say with reasonable certainty that this is when the 'punishment' stopped and the consequences started. I didn't see or talk to her for weeks on end. Very truly things changed drastically when I let her go. What she realized, felt, wanted or needed I have, or had no way of knowing. Well over a year after the divorce an unexpected call from my sobbing ex came, begging me to see her. By that time I was dating and feeling more like myself, so I did.

 

What did she learn? How does she see it all now? Hard to tell. She never expressed anything to answer those questions. Then again, I didn't ask. Could it be that I didn't want to be lied to again? I can say what I've learned, and much of that is shared in the posts I make here. I do worry about the long-term effects the divorce will have on our kids and I'm not happy about my displaced family, but I am happy and secure in knowing I'll never again trust the responsibility of my happiness to another person.

 

Consequences and punishment? It's likely one feels just like the other in time.

 

A good post. At least, it's one that resonates a lot with me. Kindred spirits, you and I. My wife also "cooked-up" and "manufactured" many of my flaws. And she ran. It's not been quite a year since our D but in my case, I suspect that phone call isn't coming. I actually think she's a bit broken hearted about how quickly I went back to dating (at least, that's what she'll tell herself to remain as the victim in all of this).

Edited August 22, 2013 by BetrayedH

[Steadfast]

It's not been quite a year since our D but in my case, I suspect that phone call isn't coming.

 

Don't read too much into that kidd. I never said she wanted to reunite. In fact, I really don't remember what she said but I know what she didn't say. On the other hand, I didn't expect her to ask. I expected a bunch of confused, self-centered double talk and that's what I got. Nothing was resolved or answered except what I could conclude from her actions. I can say I didn't enjoy seeing her in this condition. It didn't please me to see her upset and crying, nor did I feel sorry for her. I just kind of...observed.

 

The point is, even a delusional cheater can differentiate between punishment and consequences given enough time. Reality often hits hard...especially when the tide turns and those who once supported the cheater turn into adversaries. This often happens to the betrayer or anyone who is self-centered. "Any port in the storm" comes to mind and it's something betrayed spouses can expect at some point. Including you. Don't hold your breath, but don't be surprised if it happens either.

 

I'm grown tired and bored with my story. I've totally changed it and moved on, but the lessons learned can be valuable for those of us who really have no choice after infidelity. Life is still a challenge and we should expect no less after moving on. Different people, different issues.

[BetrayedH]

Don't read too much into that kidd. I never said she wanted to reunite. In fact, I really don't remember what she said but I know what she didn't say. On the other hand, I didn't expect her to ask. I expected a bunch of confused, self-centered double talk and that's what I got. Nothing was resolved or answered except what I could conclude from her actions. I can say I didn't enjoy seeing her in this condition. It didn't please me to see her upset and crying, nor did I feel sorry for her. I just kind of...observed.

 

The point is, even a delusional cheater can differentiate between punishment and consequences given enough time. Reality often hits hard...especially when the tide turns and those who once supported the cheater turn into adversaries. This often happens to the betrayer or anyone who is self-centered. "Any port in the storm" comes to mind and it's something betrayed spouses can expect at some point. Including you. Don't hold your breath, but don't be surprised if it happens either.

 

I'm grown tired and bored with my story. I've totally changed it and moved on, but the lessons learned can be valuable for those of us who really have no choice after infidelity. Life is still a challenge and we should expect no less after moving on. Different people, different issues.

 

Actually, I gathered from your post that her call wasn't that remorseful and closure event that you might hope for. Not sure I hope for that either. But it is interesting to hear that she was looking for a port in the storm. That call might come for me someday. And I suspect I'll feel similar to you, not much joy or sympathy (and just hear a bunch of double-speak).

 

Glad you're changing up your story. I think I still have my eyes in the rear view mirror a bit too much.

[Steadfast]

Actually, I gathered from your post that her call wasn't that remorseful and closure event that you might hope for. Not sure I hope for that either. But it is interesting to hear that she was looking for a port in the storm. That call might come for me someday. And I suspect I'll feel similar to you, not much joy or sympathy (and just hear a bunch of double-speak).

 

Glad you're changing up your story. I think I still have my eyes in the rear view mirror a bit too much.

 

For what it's worth kidd, I think your eyes (and ears) are just fine. And I apologize for my sloppy grammer. I have been hammering out loads of text in my work. The letters on my keyboard are quickly disappearing.

 

I'll never be happy about what happened to my marriage...to my life. That doesn't keep us from seeking happiness afterward. I've grown in specific ways because of having to deal with it, but I might have grown in other, just as meaningful ways had she not stepped out. Who's to say?

 

I live free of burden because I didn't punish her. Even when she was pounding $hit down my neck I kept my vows to love, honor and respect. Broken vows by then, yes, but I kept them until the end. The irony is, this kindness might someday torture her more than vengeful actions or words. Perhaps that's another consequence? I'll probably never know, and don't need to.

 

Still, my ex knows she has a place in my heart. A place untouched by circumstance. It'll never be romance or a relationship. That's dead. Your ex knows this too kidd. I'm certain of it. I'm also certain there's another woman out there, biding her time. She'll be a very lucky girl, indeed.

Edited August 24, 2013 by Steadfast

[BetrayedH]

I left an ill husbabd early on this week to be with an old boyfriend. We spent two days traveling back to the east coast. I was going to stay with my sister and mother. Yes my old boyfriend and I shared a room and bed for the two days.

I arrived at my mothers house and knocked on the door My sister answered and befor I could say hello she drew back and gave me a bloody nose. By the time I stood up again my mother was there and said to come in and clean up. When I arrived downstairs my mother had a putter threatening my old boyfriend with mayhem if he did not leave. Then she told me I was going to be on the first flight out back to my husband.

 

Sounds like you should start your own thread. People here can help.

 

To be more on-topic, I think you set a record for suffering the earliest consequences and punishment. Wow.

[road]

I left an ill husbabd early on this week to be with an old boyfriend. We spent two days traveling back to the east coast. I was going to stay with my sister and mother. Yes my old boyfriend and I shared a room and bed for the two days.

I arrived at my mothers house and knocked on the door My sister answered and befor I could say hello she drew back and gave me a bloody nose. By the time I stood up again my mother was there and said to come in and clean up. When I arrived downstairs my mother had a putter threatening my old boyfriend with mayhem if he did not leave. Then she told me I was going to be on the first flight out back to my husband.

 

 

I read your other post.

 

What you did to your BH after 30 years and him in poor health. And you talk about finding a new husband.

 

You are making this up or are one sick lady.