Among the men who look for marriage

[JourneyLady]

My ex-bf would say he was looking for marriage. He was doing a lot of thinking about it while we were apart. I can't get married right now, and he decided he'd rather be in his hometown. Things weren't going well and he left.

 

Between the astrological reading he had and the tarot card reading he wrote down (and I saw) he was really digging for "when will I be married".

 

Suddenly after a month and a half at his home town he's "in love". It bothered me for a bit, but I've figured it out (beyond the fact that he wasn't in love with me anyway).

 

Money is running out (state dependent) and he's ready to find someone to support him. So he's been in a hurry to get married, but it needs to be someone he's either more attracted to physically (arm candy) and/or that will support him when the money runs out. The only way he can hold onto someone will be marriage - since he doesn't EARN anything and has no resources, he has nothing to lose.

 

The woman in this situation could lose a good deal of her self-esteem.

 

I am curious how many of us here have run into this situation (male or female) with someone? Not a "player" in the sense of automatically going from one conquest to another... but a "user" in the sense of getting people to fall for them in order to be taken care of, given things, etc. ?

 

(I want to add my self-esteem took a boost since I realized another woman fell for his "act". So that helps.)

Edited August 15, 2013 by JourneyLady
additional

[carhill]

A friend of my exW's asked me yesterday if I was dating anyone. I responded 'no' and the reason is that I intend to leave this area in the next couple years and don't wish to invest in personal relationships during that time, both because of distraction from my goal of recovery from divorce, as well as geography, since there will be no compromise about my leaving. I'm very serious about marriage, but also understand realistic parameters. If my attitude was more casual, I'd be dating now and not concerned about leaving a potential partner behind.

 

I have run into numerous 'conquest focused' individuals in my life, mostly turning out to be MW's. That's another reason I'm leaving this area. That part of life is over.

[Emilia]

I am curious how many of us here have run into this situation (male or female) with someone? Not a "player" in the sense of automatically going from one conquest to another... but a "user" in the sense of getting people to fall for them in order to be taken care of, given things, etc. ?

Not me. I can't imagine ever dating a man who either doesn't have a decent job or doesn't work in a rubbish one until he finds the good one he wants. I've never dated idle men in my life.

[GorillaTheater]

I intend to leave this area in the next couple years

 

Apologies for the tj, but may I ask where (in general) you're planning to go? Must be at least a little daunting, given the fact that you're a business owner, but kudos for the courage.

[Star Gazer]

Not me. I can't imagine ever dating a man who either doesn't have a decent job or doesn't work in a rubbish one until he finds the good one he wants. I've never dated idle men in my life.

 

Same here. I am no man's sugar momma.

[RedRobin]

I am curious how many of us here have run into this situation (male or female) with someone? Not a "player" in the sense of automatically going from one conquest to another... but a "user" in the sense of getting people to fall for them in order to be taken care of, given things, etc. ?

 

My saying goes... there are lots of ways to be an a-hole...

 

There are also lots of ways to be a 'user'...

 

Anyone who expects their partner to fill a gaping hole in their life in one way or another, is potentially a 'user'.

 

Could be money, a baby, a job, sex, time... you name it. But since you mention financial... I'd say yes.

 

I've come across quite a number of men who are looking for a younger woman to take care of them in their old age (be it financially or with her time)... and that is the only kind of women they will commit to....

 

although, they will mess around with poorer, attractive women or attractive women their own age or older... but yea, if it looks like she's not bringing the $$, they will move on.

 

Golddiggers come in both genders...

[JourneyLady]

Interesting stories. My ex-hub's AP was a divorced woman on her own and working as a temp where he worked. He was/is making six figures, we had a nice home and family -- just that we both had some issues. Counseling probably could have fixed it, given the right person. But he chose not to go that route.

So it felt to me like a gold-digger situation. I'm sure she's set for life now; they've been married five years. He's got life insurance, lots of bennies, the whole bit.

 

Anyway, I feel better about the ex-bf thing. After all, I had no warning - no one to tell me about the "real" him. She's been told at least twice that he's not who he pretends to be but continues to believe. On the other hand, I think she may be another one of those who acts spiritual in order to get what she wants. They are also in the same groups, so if it falls apart, it will be a mess.

 

I'm fine mostly - (except financially stressed) - just a bit of leftover PTSD and a lot less trust in people's words. Which is really a good thing. It could have been worse - I could have married the guy and been hounded by his debt collectors and a ruined credit score!

 

He was divorced because he stopped working because of "health issues" and his ex-wife divorced him (before she died of cancer). He'd run up credit cards attempting to start a business and didn't consult her about it. He also had an anger problem. She was afraid for her sons futures, so she took him out of the picture in that way by leaving their inheritance in the hands of her sister.

 

So he leaves a legacy of smarter women behind him anyway.

Edited August 15, 2013 by JourneyLady
clarify

[JourneyLady]

Oh and ladies - a couple of online dating "beware ofs" if you don't already know.

 

Sometimes a man lists himself as a "widower" when in fact he was divorced and just hadn't remarried or ex-wife hadn't remarried when she died. Or were separated and she had no intent to get back with him.

 

The other word is "retired". Some use this when they are on the state or federal dollar, through disability or widower's benefits, etc. It doesn't always mean they are already on social security proper. It just means they are not working and have some sort of income.

 

In ex-bf's case, he had two sons at home and was getting widower's benefits while his boys were still in school. One graduated and left. That reduced him down. The other one is about to be of working age -- which will leave him $500 per month to live on.

 

In five years he has not had the guns to put together a disability package or file bankruptsy from the past debt (they garnish his SSI).

 

So you can see why he'd want to latch on to some younger and more able bodied caretaker type person... lol

 

Whereas... I couldn't get married before 60 or lose my social security from ex-hubs. So suddenly we were "incompatible", according to him.

[TB Rhine]

Goodness - thank God history shows that we MEN don't have to worry about a woman trying to marry us for our money, expecting to be supported, etc. Phew!

 

*arms sweat off forehead melodramatically*

 

I'm being [somewhat] facetious, of course, but the fact is that a huge proportion of married women leave their husbands after an unexpected job loss; the same does not hold true if the genders are reversed, however. Frankly, I find it hard to believe that ANY man (save a straight-up gigolo type going after much older or less attractive women) would have an easy time finding a well-to-do woman to marry and support him, even if he was so inclined. Gender dynamics just don't work that way.

Edited August 15, 2013 by TB Rhine

[JourneyLady]

Goodness - thank God history shows that we MEN don't have to worry about a woman trying to marry us for our money, expecting to be supported, etc. Phew!

 

*arms sweat off forehead melodramatically*

 

I'm being [somewhat] facetious, of course, but the fact is that a huge proportion of married women leave their husbands after an unexpected job loss; the same does not hold true if the genders are reversed, however. Frankly, I find it hard to believe that ANY man (save a straight-up gigolo type going after much older or less attractive women) would have an easy time finding a well-to-do woman to marry and support him, even if he was so inclined. Gender dynamics just don't work that way.

 

Well first...

To quote my original post " I am curious how many of us here have run into this situation (male or female)". As well I described how my ex-hubs ap could possibly have an ulterior motive going after top management...

 

Suppose you fill us in on red flags of female gold-diggers? Might be helpful in warning our male friends as well... Since I am not one, I have no idea.

 

Well to do? No. In my ex-bf's case it was simply a matter of surviving while still being allowed to be .... lazy. You know... some days his poor back hurts and he doesn't want to be forced to work with that pain. lol

 

(lol because I have male friends who have worse pain and still manage to put in a weeks work.)

[JourneyLady]

Yes, but that's totally irrelevant to the discussion. No one is discounting the fact that there are a plethora of female gold diggers out there nor asserting that this behavior is common amongst men. I'd even venture to say its a relative rarity is the very reason for the thread given that the OP wanted to know if other women had encountered men like this.

 

Also, the woman doesn't have to be older, less attractive or even well off. Men like this aren't necessarily looking for a free ride in a fancy car, any old pinto will do. The fact of the matter is, they want to be taken care of financially; as in, they'd like to have their day-to-day needs met and regular expenses covered by a woman. Doesn't have to be a second home in Vail or penthouse suites.

 

Exactly. They simply want to be able to not have to work (and in his case, sit home and watch porn when he was in the mood and post lovely spiritual items on FB the rest of the time.) Yeah, I know... real winner, huh. The problem was I got hooked before I knew all that.

[salparadise]

Suddenly after a month and a half at his home town he's "in love". It bothered me for a bit, but I've figured it out (beyond the fact that he wasn't in love with me anyway).

 

I think the fact that you figured all of this out after you were jilted rather than giving it as the reason you dumped him makes the conclusion suspect. I don't believe you given any empirical data that would indicate a causal relationship between his desire to be married and finances. Have you considered the possibility that you got dumped because he just wasn't into you? I mean you did say so yourself, but then after the fact you go on to attribute ill motives. This isn't quite passing the sniff test for me.

[miss_jaclynrae]

Never.

 

 

I can't say I have ever met a man who wanted a relationship merely to live off of her. I have also never met a woman who wanted that.

[JourneyLady]

I think the fact that you figured all of this out after you were jilted rather than giving it as the reason you dumped him makes the conclusion suspect. I don't believe you given any empirical data that would indicate a causal relationship between his desire to be married and finances. Have you considered the possibility that you got dumped because he just wasn't into you? I mean you did say so yourself, but then after the fact you go on to attribute ill motives. This isn't quite passing the sniff test for me.

 

As a matter of fact, I had dumped him several times and this last time as well. He always had some reason why things were not going well and the fact that the attraction between us was magnetic had a lot to do with it. No, it's not after the fact. I suspected after the second year that something was seriously wrong, but some of the time he talked me into coming back (even signed a "contract" at one point) and some of the time I was doing well without him and he'd start showing up at functions I was going to.

 

But as far as not being into me... Five years and he's not into me. I agree with you but with the idea that he can't be into ANYONE but himself. He put himself first on just about everything, while convincing me he "had to take care of his health" or "just didn't feel good that day".

 

The ill motives is what I'm saying is driving him now. Basically panic. Because if he doesn't find a meal ticket quick, he's going to be out on the street. As recent as a couple of weeks ago, I might have had some sympathy or empathy for this, because he was still being "friends" with me. But the attitude didn't match up and I see he's "into" someone else 6 weeks after getting there.

 

I'm not as much ascribing ill motives to the break-up as I am to his deciding not to work things out because it doesn't fit in with his survival parameters. His staying with me at all is the ill motives, not the break-up itself. I KNOW he wasn't into me. I also know he pretended to be in order to take advantage of the goodies I possessed.

 

Why you choose to "pick at" my situation is interesting. There's always one who, if you tell a story, will pick at your motives and try to tear you down. It says more about who you are than who I am. You like to rub things in, apparently. Very much the kind of thing he would say during his "negative" days.

 

i was supportive of my ex-hubs and stayed with him even through job losses (and worked myself at times). I was supportive of ex-bf and when he complained about things, did my best to help him solve problems -- like buying him a chair so he didn't have to stand while cooking his dinner.

 

So to be clear.

>I< Broke up with HIM, not the other way around.

HE agreed with it - probably in part because I stopped the money flow.

 

NOW, he's got a new girl and I am nearly certain he is hoping she will support him - in spite of health and anger issues. I'm just relating the facts. It was an initial shock maybe that he moved on so quickly, but doesn't really surprise me given his selfishness.

 

In retrospect... I'm glad someone that selfish isn't "into me" as you say.

But... in the learning process, I lost a lot of ground I have to regain and I think other women/people should be cautious unless they also want to lose a lot in the process. Love IS a risk. But to stick with things as long as I did is sheer nonsense and just asking to be used. I have learned from my experiences.

[white]

I've known some highly manipulative, financially motivated other halves of couples. In my experience while it is fairly despicable, it is never entirely just about using the money. There is love there and both of them are very upset when it ends. The money was just an aspect of the person that they wanted. I only knew one guy like this, and he's spent ten years trying to get back with her (she also bore his child).

 

Having said which, I have known many couples for whom marriage and moving in together was heavily financially motivated. They can't afford a mortgage separately, they share a car, bills, etc. Not romantic but by the time it comes up, the romance is rather dealt with. I have a hard time condemning it and only slightly less of a hard time differentiating that from a man or woman looking to be with someone for the same purpose from the start. The thing about most people you see is they're practically motivated and live in the real world where things are really expensive now. Notions of Disney love and perfect partners go out the window when an average girl or guy makes themselves available and suddenly you can put a foot on the property ladder and think seriously about children, together.

[JourneyLady]

And I'm not sure what kind of empirical data you are looking for...

 

Does it count when (asking me to pay him back for something I didn't have any choice on) he mentioned his income was going to be extremely diminished soon? What kind of thing would be "proof" to you, other than my experience of being persuaded "he had changed" over and over and that things would be different this time?

 

If you don't believe me - that's fine - just ignore the thread. I don't really owe YOU anything. I know the truth. I know he isn't how he acts around others. I know the act he put on the first three months hooked me in and I found it hard to get away from. And it WAS an act. "Truth" for him is whatever he feels "at that moment" and if the other person understands "I love you" to mean anything of permanence... It is their fault.

 

And if you say there was something wrong with me, I'll agree with that too. I'd been married a long time. I was naive. I wanted to believe, I jumped in with both feet and let him mess with my head (a lot of gaslighting). IF you knew the kind of marriage I'd come from, you'd quickly see why.

 

If I see that act now, I know to doubt it. Not dismiss people out of hand, but definitely keep my guard up a bit for at least six months of constant contact.

 

I'm not here to care what you believe. I'm here to warn others like myself who didn't know this sort of thing existed. I'd only been on my own about a year when I met him and almost totally dependent before that.

[JourneyLady]

I've known some highly manipulative, financially motivated other halves of couples. In my experience while it is fairly despicable, it is never entirely just about using the money. There is love there and both of them are very upset when it ends. The money was just an aspect of the person that they wanted. I only knew one guy like this, and he's spent ten years trying to get back with her (she also bore his child).

 

Having said which, I have known many couples for whom marriage and moving in together was heavily financially motivated. They can't afford a mortgage separately, they share a car, bills, etc. Not romantic but by the time it comes up, the romance is rather dealt with. I have a hard time condemning it and only slightly less of a hard time differentiating that from a man or woman looking to be with someone for the same purpose from the start. The thing about most people you see is they're practically motivated and live in the real world where things are really expensive now. Notions of Disney love and perfect partners go out the window when an average girl or guy makes themselves available and suddenly you can put a foot on the property ladder and think seriously about children, together.

 

I agree with you about all that. I guess my focus is more on those of us who are older and the child-bearing is out of the way. I have several friends who lost money on ne're-do-wells who didn't really want to pull their own weight.

 

I'm talking more about those who don't want to work (even INSIDE the home) and look for someone to pull all the weight. And who will "put on an act" to pretend that they will pull their own weight until the partner is fully sucked in. It's not just me I've seen it happen to - unfortunately I didn't see any of that until after I was with the guy.

 

When we met, he had a townhome with his two sons, which was clean and neat. He was hiking a lot, meditating (so he said) pursuing spiritual values.

 

What I didn't know and he didn't mention - he was being pursued by creditors, his ex had a restraining order at one point, the govt money would eventually end and he hadn't even filed probate papers from his parents from FIVE YEARS EARLIER. I didn't learn all that at once... It was "trickle truth" over the course of the next two years. I also didn't know he was heavily into porn (that was hidden) and that ALL the women he'd dated since his divorce had been told how "special" they were and that he was sure they were the one. One broke up with him because he'd told her he was sick and gone out to meet a former girlfriend for dinner instead, and she found out.

 

When he wanted out - I was too ... whatever, and it was impossible.

When he wanted back in - I was a "good woman" and he'd made a mistake and wanted to work on things. When he was away, he'd get back into porn and I highly suspect some fights were because he just wanted to do that alone. (I don't have a problem with porn. Just with secretiveness and/or it's effect of lack of real sex in a relationship.)

 

We tried "just dating" once without the physical, but it quickly turned into his hints about how turned on he was, and what could he do about that.

 

I'd say it was also about the sex, not just the money.

But it was never about me as a person -- it was always about HIS needs. Bringing up my own needs would bring his anger and even abuse a few times.

 

Please understand that venting is also part of recovery.

I am stronger (and wiser) - but I am still in recovery.

[salparadise]

NOW, he's got a new girl and I am nearly certain he is hoping she will support him - in spite of health and anger issues. I'm just relating the facts. It was an initial shock maybe that he moved on so quickly, but doesn't really surprise me given his selfishness.

 

In retrospect... I'm glad someone that selfish isn't "into me" as you say.

But... in the learning process, I lost a lot of ground I have to regain and I think other women/people should be cautious unless they also want to lose a lot in the process. Love IS a risk. But to stick with things as long as I did is sheer nonsense and just asking to be used. I have learned from my experiences.

 

It's not my intent to pick on you. I do empathize with you in your dealing with the end of a five year relationship. I was just pointing out that the context in which you're ascribing motives is after the fact, and after he "moved on so quickly" to someone else. Devaluation is a common reaction while suffering the end of a relationship and I just think that it's seldom as black and white as either of the two may try to characterize it during this time. When a relationship ends there is a period of grieving the loss, and anger is the second of five stages (denial is the first). Hopefully you will soon be able to acknowledge and accept your feelings with regard to having lost something valuable, even if it wasn't meant to be.

[JourneyLady]

It's not my intent to pick on you. I do empathize with you in your dealing with the end of a five year relationship. I was just pointing out that the context in which you're ascribing motives is after the fact, and after he "moved on so quickly" to someone else. Devaluation is a common reaction while suffering the end of a relationship and I just think that it's seldom as black and white as either of the two may try to characterize it during this time. When a relationship ends there is a period of grieving the loss, and anger is the second of five stages (denial is the first). Hopefully you will soon be able to acknowledge and accept your feelings with regard to having lost something valuable, even if it wasn't meant to be.

 

It's not that I'm saying it wasn't valuable. Definitely it made me stronger (I've had to endure a lot of things that few are aware of during that time!). If anyone "devalued" the relationship, it was the ex-bf. I was heavily invested in the relationship on the consistent persuasion that he was as well. But you have to start asking questions where there seems to be a consistent sabotage, don't you? Things would calm down, we'd been getting along fine and suddenly when I was going through trauma (like my mother being injured), he would withdraw moral support and leave me dealing by myself. Sort of like Charlie Brown and Lucy with the football. Me being Charlie Brown.

 

I suspected different times that his being with me was all about him in one way or another. I just wanted so much to believe otherwise, and was being heavily gaslighted that it was something to do with my values being skewed. I read and thought things to do with narcissism as much as three years ago, but between the gaslighting and my own desires I managed to convince myself that even a narc could change if they loved someone enough or if the reasons to were clear enough. I was looking for a miracle that would never happen.

 

The "value" that lies in the experience is that I learned to love fully and completely and gave my all in care-taking for someone (two actually, if you count my mother). But I can honestly look back and see that the only time he was ever "loving" was when there was something to be gained - either my care-taking or when persuading me that things could change. In point of fact, I have the feeling that had his financial situation not be quite so dire, he would have returned to persuade me once again. I'm not so sure that wouldn't happen even now, should he run out of other options. But my mind is made up at this point, because I am learning to love myself again.

 

I valued the relationship or I would have not kept going with it for all that time. However I am worthy of much better. But it is upsetting to have to start over, particularly in my (somewhat isolated) situation and with the stresses of life that I had. I loved him - but I loved the "ideal" that he showed me in the beginning and every time he wanted me back, and not the person who kept undermining my efforts at making us a stable life. Nor the person who made things more difficult at times when I really needed his moral support.

 

There is always more to the story - of course! But as you see, if I try to fully go into ALL of the details, it just takes too darn long in print. Therefore I normally post only what is relevant to the hypothesis (angle) that I am trying to work out at the time. A relationship is seldom simplistic.

 

But thank you for your thoughts. It just first came across as some kind of argument based on my not "seeing clearly". If I misinterpreted, I apologize.

[salparadise]

I suspected different times that his being with me was all about him in one way or another. [...] I was looking for a miracle that would never happen.

 

But aren't all relationships like this in a sense? When a relationship is working, it's invariably because the other person makes us feel great about ourselves. And the expectation is always that they will return us to a euphoric sense of wholeness, fill our void, find our lost self, and end our suffering. It would be a miracle for a mere mortal to perform such feats.

 

I valued the relationship or I would have not kept going with it for all that time. However I am worthy of much better. [...] I loved him - but I loved the "ideal" that he showed me in the beginning and every time he wanted me back, and not the person who kept undermining my efforts at making us a stable life. Nor the person who made things more difficult at times when I really needed his moral support.

 

Yes, loving the ideal and being disappointed when it turns out that everything is not ideal, finding that life's struggles persist and that the relationship has failed to maintain the initial euphoria is often a problematic time. Every relationship hits that wall eventually. The trick is learning how to push through, much like a marathon runner, and find that second wind to take you the distance.

 

But thank you for your thoughts. It just first came across as some kind of argument based on my not "seeing clearly". If I misinterpreted, I apologize.

 

I should've worded it better, thank you for understanding. I hope you will find peace with the ending of this one, and that new love will find you soon.

[JourneyLady]

In another thread "Downtown" posted a piece about "engulfment" and "abandonment" fears and a lightbulb went on.

 

I recognized myself in the abandonment fear spectrum. Not surprising, since I had four older brothers and sisters who acted as parents at one time or another who all left home (I was much younger) as well as my father going over seas when I was a toddler. And two ex-husbands who just "left".

 

I recognize BOTH fears in my ex-bf, and what Downtown said about setting up a no-win scenario makes a lot of sense to me. The engulfment fear had him not wanting to commit (probably didn't feel "free" enough) and my abandonment fear didn't get reassured enough by him to keep me from flaking out. Repeated leaving then triggered HIS abandonment fear and so on and so forth.

 

So I guess (when I feel ready to try again) all I need is someone without the engulfment fear that is able to reassure me when the abandonment fear strikes -- as well as work on that particular fear constantly to beat it off. I suppose detachment helps. Only what's in the back of my head is that if I can be that detached, why am I with someone anyway! lol! The only people I don't fear leaving is those I am not attached to. I suppose that's why it was so perfect in the beginning -- because I went in with the notion it was probably going to be temporary.

 

I learn soooo much by reading here - so many insights, so little time.