So where did we go wrong with marriage in our generation?

[Betterthanthis13]

Wow I can see some anger here but it's not coming from me.

 

Are you serious? A woman doesn't need a man to insert his penis just to get pregnant. All she needs is a turkey baster with sperm in it. Readily available from your friendly neighorhood fertility clinic. No male required to insert anything. Fish. Bicycle.

 

And obviously if a woman is pregnant it is biologically impossible for a man to terminate that pregnancy by not inserting his penis.

 

Women. So illogical. You are SO ANGRY right now that you're just babbling and you don't even care how irrational you sound. LOL.

 

I'm sorry but that just made my night- women getting artificially inseminated just to have an abortion, only to irritate you? HAHAHAHAHA ok.

 

Peace out. Nevermind

[MissBee]

Marriage has never been one thing in all times and places across the world.

 

It evolves with the times.

 

So there is no ideal in which people can go back to, as it has never been one thing.

 

Marriage is as you make it. What other people choose to do is on them, you can't stop them; however, you and your partner can find examples in people you admire or in your own faith tradition and attempt to model your relationship in the best way you see fit.

[Betterthanthis13]

Right. Men can't get pregnant in real life. Now you're starting to get it.

 

 

 

 

 

Why do you think I'm not happy with the current state of things? It doesn't matter what I think since I'm a man. I have zero rights to control any woman's sexuality or reproductive rights, even my own wife's.

 

You seem to be having difficulty with the basic point, which is, it's all on your gender now. If there's a breakdown of the family, it's the responsibility of women. Women can have children without men. Men aren't even necessary except to pay child support when a woman decides she wants to use a man's semen to get pregnant (with or without his knowledge or consent) because she feels the need to have a child for her own ego-gratification.

 

Here is some information from the Washington Post about pregnancy and rape victims. How do you feel about their right to get abortions?

 

 

Because of the violence and stigma associated with rape — as well as different definitions — there are a wide range of statistics concerning rape. The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, for instance, estimates that nearly 1.3 million American women were victims of rape or attempted rape in 2010. (About half were actual rapes.) But RAINN, the Rape Abuse and Incest National Network, says about 64,000 women were raped between 2004-2005, citing Justice Department data.

 

Obviously, the number of rapes will make a huge difference in the number of rapes that result in pregnancy. But Franks spoke of “incidence,” which suggests he is speaking about the rate of pregnancy.

 

The most widely cited study of this question (embedded below) was published in 1996 by the American Journal of Obstetrics and Gynecology, which determined a national rape-related pregnancy rate of 5.0 percent per rape among victims between the ages of 12 and 45. The study was based on a survey of 4008 adult women, over a three-year period, which covered a range of questions on drug and alcohol abuse but also included questions intended to draw out information on sexual assaults.

[Betterthanthis13]

The man's choices and decisions are irrelevant.

 

A man cannot force a woman to have sex without violating the law, cannot force a woman to use birth control or to refrain from using it, and if she becomes pregnant, has no say in the decision of whether to keep the fetus or to abort it.

 

Should the man disagree with the woman's decision to have a child against the man's will, he is still responsible for child support even if they split up. Even if the woman lies to him about her use of birth control. Even if the woman had previously promised to get an abortion in case of a pregnancy.

 

You see women can lie, connive and deceive in these matters and that is all irrelevant.

 

 

They have condoms at CVS, Walgreens, the grocery store, most gas stations, etc. problem SOLVED

 

Men always have the CHOICE to abstain or the CHOICE to wait until marriage

 

PEOPLE, male or female, have the responsibility to raise their children responsibly- sometimes fathers get custody after a divorce

 

If all your friends have baby mamas and pay child support, maybe you should move to a new neighborhood and try to go to college

[MissBee]

Miss Bee,

 

marriage is obsolete other than as a quaint relic of the past. It's almost ironic that now that gays have finally gotten marital rights it's become obsolete.

 

The vast majority of young women act out in sexually promiscuous ways in their teens and 20's, then when they get baby rabies, look for some sucker white knight so the woman can quit her job and have the man support her. (Of course most of these women lie about their past history of promiscuity because "a woman's body is her own" and the man isn't entitled to know).

 

A large percentage of the time they cheat and cuckold the man and he ends up raising kids that aren't even his. Much of the other time once the kids are a little older the wife gets tired of her unexciting dependable schlub and walks out taking half of everything plus alimony and child support to go eff her tennis instructor.

 

I think most young men of marrying age nowadays would be absolutely insane to get married. The best case scenario is after the wedding the wife rapidly gorges herself into a fat blimp so at least there is less of a chance of her cheating on him but god knows she will still try.

 

As I said...marriage has not been the same throughout all time and in all places. It's very easy to research this fact and see how marriage has looked differently in different time periods and cultures. All human institutions evolve and marriage is no different.

 

At best, it is a fantasy that marriage in the past was always some glorious thing, no one cheated, everyone was in love etc. The same kinds of woes which plague marriages now happened in the past too...except maybe divorce was more difficult or frowned upon in Christian-influenced cultures so people just suffered quietly, but now, since divorce isn't as stigmatized, more people are willing to go that route.

 

There's nothing new under the sun as they say.

[karnak]

Despite all the bitterness and anger in this thread, I'll try to give my 50 cents.

 

Yes, marriage nowadays is a banrupt social institution.

 

As some people clearly and well stated in the beginning of this thread, marriage was (and still is a social contract) binding a man and a woman in exchange for mutual services.

 

Nowadays, with same rights for both genders, most of the reasons women had for staying in a marriage are null (difficulty to find a job, social pressure, etc). Yet, women still carry on with the fantasy of the marriage, even if it is entirely devoid of purpose or real symbolism. For example, most (almost all) of the women still marry with white gowns, even if they've sincle lost their virginity with a guy which is not her husband.

 

It's a sort of fantasy, really. Almost a rite of passage or a sort of little girl's play. It seems that most women (even more so than men) see marriage as a kid sees a trip to Disneyworld. Something which they'll remember as long as they live, but will not have a lasting impact on their lifetime in terms of real importance.

 

Fortunately, people now are free to leave a relationship as they see fit. Yet, what I still fail to comprehend (and still manages to shock me) is how the infidelity is rampant and keeps increasing.

If we can leave an unhappy relationship why do we have to betray and hurt those who try to protect and cherish us?

 

Guess that's related to one of the most obscure and perverted sides of human nature: most humans are selfish and devoid of character by nature. Amd we want it ALL.

 

We want to keep our husband/wive's genitals intact. But, at the same time we desire the bodies of our neighbours spouses.

 

Scary.

[rainfall]

At the end of the day, don't have sex with a man unless you are prepared to raise a child with him.

.

 

 

This is one of the most foolish things I have ever heard. Not everyone wants a child so your advice to them is to remain alone forever?...

 

 

I think better advice would be don't have sex with someone unless you both share the same idea of what you would do if a pregnancy happened.

Edited August 12, 2013 by rainfall

[xxoo]

I married in the early 90s, and went to a dozen or so weddings in that decade. Most of those people are now divorced (we are still married, 20 years later).

 

There is nothing new under the sun. My grandparents, married 70 years, tell me stories of women getting pregnant while their husbands were off looking for work during the depression. I have a great-aunt who never married because she had a long term affair with a married man in the 40s.

 

If anything, people are marrying now for better reasons, and staying together for better reasons. There is some evidence that the divorce rates are declining.

 

Relax, enjoy your marriage, realizing that you may be the first generation to truly choose marriage for the right reasons, and have the opportunity to create the happiest marriages of all history.

[Quiet Storm]

I think if your parents divorced, you are more likely to see divorce as a valid option for marriage problems.

 

If your parents are married, you are more likely to stay married. If your parents had a healthy marriage, you are more equipped to compromise and work through problems. If your parents had a dysfunctional marriage but remained together, you are more likely to tolerate bad situations such as abuse or alcoholism, because it feels "normal".

 

My husband and I both come from "intact" families, and we have been together for 22 years and have the "for better, for worse" mindset. We both saw our parents marriages have good years & not so good years. We saw them compromise & work on their issues. We did not have the expectation that marriage should be happy 100% of the time. We married expecting to have good times & bad times.

 

We were born in the 70s. We are not believers, so religion is not a factor in my opinion.

 

Our friends that are from divorced homes often have a more casual outlook on marriage. They seem more willing to consider divorce as an option.

 

I have also noticed that many of my friends and acquaintances from divorced homes have poor boundaries. They are married, but are flirty and develop "crushes" on other men. I don't even allow my mind to go there. I think it's because they experienced their parents dating multiple people, so flirty behavior with multiple men is "normal" for them.

 

My feeling is that if there are kids in the household, it really is better for the kids if you stay married, with the exception of abuse, addiction, untreated mental illness, blatant disrespect or unremorseful infidelity. I know many do not agree with that, though.

[karnak]

 

If your parents are married, you are more likely to stay married. If your parents had a healthy marriage, you are more equipped to compromise and work through problems. If your parents had a dysfunctional marriage but remained together, you are more likely to tolerate bad situations such as abuse or alcoholism, because it feels "normal".

 

 

Not really. I know cases where brothers or sisters, of distinct backgounds (divorced parents, or happy households), have completely distinct marriages.

One brother is in a happy, healthy marriage, the other is divorced. One sister is divorced the other sister is in a unhealthy, facade marriage. All this coming from stable parents.

 

Many factors come into equation. I, myself, come from a broken home where emotional unbalance was the norm. Yet, I have healthier boundaries and a more sane outlook in relationships than most couples I know.

I never cheated and I was never abusive nor do I accept abuse. Most guys I know clearly don't share the same values I do.

[Clockwork]

I married in the early 90s, and went to a dozen or so weddings in that decade. Most of those people are now divorced (we are still married, 20 years later).

 

There is nothing new under the sun. My grandparents, married 70 years, tell me stories of women getting pregnant while their husbands were off looking for work during the depression. I have a great-aunt who never married because she had a long term affair with a married man in the 40s.

 

If anything, people are marrying now for better reasons, and staying together for better reasons. There is some evidence that the divorce rates are declining.

 

Relax, enjoy your marriage, realizing that you may be the first generation to truly choose marriage for the right reasons, and have the opportunity to create the happiest marriages of all history.

 

Oh hey, as the original poster I certainly didn't want to act like there were never affairs up until 50 years ago. There sure were. The thing is though, I think you seem to believe that people get married for the right reasons nowadays. Like in any generation, they certainly don't all do that. We just do it for different reasons than past generations but either way each generation has people walking down the aisle for the wrong reasons.

 

A few people talked about technology playing a negative part as well. Or the media. Look at Kim Kardashian and that dysfunctional style of family. Kim was married for 70 days. That's it. Hey, it boosted ratings on her silly reality show right? But people see that and mimic it. We create drama because we see it on every reality show known to man. Women - or men - watch a show and think "This is how I should act towards my significant other."

 

But I think the divorce rate is certainly skyrocketing. There is just a lack of respect for each other and like others have said more of a "me, me" mindset. People think of a wedding as a party, something to centre around them for one day. But some people don't think about the actual marriage in itself.

 

Two friends of ours, one of them paid $30,000 for their wedding. A really extravagant wedding. Open bar, entertainment while you eat, etc. Their marriage lasted three years. Our other friends the bride wanted everything perfect down to a tee, as if that could happen. They planned it for a couple of years, actually cut ties with a couple members of the wedding party and all around it was a really great day. However, they didn't make it past 4 years.

 

Sadly, this is our generation in a nutshell. A "quick fix" approach.

[amaysngrace]

People stayed together before because of the shame it brought them to get divorced. Divorced women were looked down upon so they stayed and suffered abuse because being battered was something to be ashamed of too.

 

I'm glad times have changed.

 

What use to be seen as weak is now considered strong, and vice versa.

[Woggle]

I support gay marriage but sometimes it feels that gays are trying to board a sinking ship.

[Nyla]

Sometimes the marriages of older generations last long because the women are doormats.

 

My parents are still married but my mother has not been happy for more than 20 years. My father had an affair and that changed everything. My mother is also my father's slave; he does NOTHING around the house and he did very little when I was growing up.

 

Though my mom complains about not having help around the house, she also thinks that women should run after their husbands like maids. I have had to tell my mother more than once to stop pressuring me to bring my husband drinks or food. She needs to get a hobby and mind her own business. I think my mother hates how egalitarian my marriage is; it makes her jealous and challenges her beliefs.

 

Nothing is wrong with a wife doing domestic things, but I don't think it is right for a husband to do nothing. I also think that any man who cheats on his wife no longer deserves to have his dinners cooked and clothes washed. I know it can't always be 50/50 but 90/10 the wife is wrong. I do most of the housework because I am working part time. However, my husband doesn't sit on his ass waiting for me to serve him like a king. He will proactively offer to do chores on the weekend and I thank him for that.

 

The pattern of abuse and infidelity is what I see most often in very long marriages, where the couple is 50+ years old. The older wives are taught that they must stay married even if they are treated very poorly. There is often a fear of living independently and having very little identity outside of being a wife and mom.

 

On the flip side, wives of my generation (I'm 31) are often obsessed with power struggles. Under the guise of "equality", I see so many young wives who refuse to do anything to make their husbands happy. They emasculate their men by taking over every aspect of their lives and not sharing big decisions. There is not enough willingness to compromise and work together on issues.

 

I also think that young women are taught to confuse a wedding with a marriage. As soon as the excitement of being a fiancée and a bride have died down, the wives often get restless or depressed. I know one wife who expects her husband to take her on trips ALL THE TIME and she feels like she has to have a party for everything. Life isn't a frigging soap opera.

 

To simplify my points, women of my mother's and grandmother's generation put up with too much. Women in my generation do not put up with enough.

[D-Lish]

People want to turn this into a "women have changed"- but they haven't, they just have more freedoms, which naturally means more options than they did 80 years ago.

 

My Grandparents stayed together, and they hated one another. My grandfather had multiple affairs, he was verbally abusive, narcissistic, cruel to his children- and really cruel to my grandmother. They stayed with one another because divorce was not an option in their generation. As a result- she died unhappy and unfulfilled as a person. She stayed in that marriage because it was a social duty, regardless of her misery.

 

Times might have changed, but people haven't. Back in the day, gay men took a wife and lived a lie. Women endured domestic violence and it was swept under the rug. People had affairs.

 

The idea of what a marriage is supposed to be is still the same- but maybe marriage was never meant for everyone in the first place.

[KungFuJoe]

In my opinion I think marriage is better than ever. Obviously, my own success plays a big part in my opinion but I think we are in a time where men and women have equal parts and equal responsibilities. I strongly believe that to be successful in ANY long term commitment (love and even business) there has to be a mutual feeling of EQUAL commitment and value to the relationship. When one person starts to feel like they are putting in more than the other person. Or that they are better than the other. Or that one of them "controls" the relationship...that's when it's destined for failure.

 

If divorce wasn't such a stigma in the past and if women had more opportunities to make a living on their own without a man you would have seen FAR more divorces....more than even today, I believe.

 

The institution of marriage is alive and well and the combined efforts of all the bitter people on LS can't even so much as put a dent in it.

[karnak]

being a wife and mom.

 

On the flip side, wives of my generation (I'm 31) are often obsessed with power struggles. Under the guise of "equality", I see so many young wives who refuse to do anything to make their husbands happy. They emasculate their men by taking over every aspect of their lives and not sharing big decisions. There is not enough willingness to compromise and work together on issues.

 

I also think that young women are taught to confuse a wedding with a marriage. As soon as the excitement of being a fiancée and a bride have died down, the wives often get restless or depressed. I know one wife who expects her husband to take her on trips ALL THE TIME and she feels like she has to have a party for everything. Life isn't a frigging soap opera.

 

 

This really illustrates most of the marriages of my generation. People think marriage is supposed to be a Disney movie or something like that.

[karnak]

 

The institution of marriage is alive and well and the combined efforts of all the bitter people on LS can't even so much as put a dent in it.

 

I don't want to be insulting nor disrespectful, Kungfu. But it should be noticed that your marriage doesn't work the way most marriages do (I'm talking about the sexual dynamics, that is).

 

So I see your marriage mostly as an exception to the rules.

[janedoe67]

I think that the poster who mentioned how self absorbed and entitled we have become had some good insight. Not don't get me wrong, I am all for being self-aware. But I am of the age to be the first of those "child centered" families. When one grows up being raised as if the world revolves around them, and they marry someone who was raised to believe the world revolved around them.....well, you can see the issues that will create.

 

I remember going to a wedding where the vows were changed from "as long as we both shall live" to "as love as we both shall love." At the time I was appalled, but at least they were being honest. I can respect honesty. It's the people who "say" they respect marriage but have no problem trashing their own or someone else's and then spinning a bunch of "we/the were so unhappy that we/they were not really married anyway" that I have a problem with. Our parents took responsibility; we blame shift and justify and come up with a "disorder" to call it.

 

I love being a woman...LOVE being a woman. But I am not sure that certain veins of feminism really did women any favors. No matter what the bra burners might like to think, men and women ARE different, and I think couples who can embrace that instead of denying it are generally happier.

 

And as far as "bondage sluts" so, the DSM stopped classifying BDSM as a mental illness quite awhile ago...get with the times

[miss_jaclynrae]

Whenever I read threads like this, this is what I think...

 

Things change. Marriage is still the same it was then, only now people care more about personal happiness.

 

 

 

The big question I have is, why care? You can't change it, and try as you might there is no one to blame but time and humans themselves. No one sex caused this, and no one sex can fix it. The world is evolving, so why sit and try to find someone to blame? I for one am happy there is divorce in the world. It is a sad thing, but for many it is a blessing that it is no longer shaming.

 

I don't think we are doing anything wrong in this day and age, I think we are doing things right. Marriages don't always work out, there are dummies out there, and social media has made it so everything is everyone's business. Those dummies won't go away, there will always be someone who leaves their spouse for another person, or because they realized marriage isn't all lovey dovey. All I can do is do everything possible to keep MY marriage on track, I know from where I stand, I personally will try as hard as I might to keep a marriage together once I get married again.

[oldshirt]

I haven't read all the posts so forgive me if this has already been said.

 

Just because our grandparents "stuck it out" for 65 years doesn't mean that they should have or even wanted to.

 

There are some major socio-economic differences today vs 70 years ago.

 

- divorce doesn't carry the social stigmas that it used to and there isn't the shame and outcasting with it that used to take place. Moralists bemoan that fact and progressives praise that fact. regardless of whether that is right or wrong, it is still a fact.

 

- Women have more financial, political and social opportunities and resources than they used to. Women were almost considered property and most had no individual financial resources, job training, education or reasonable means to support themselves individually.

 

- Men were also very limited in their abilities to live as individuals with many having little upbringing and guidance in such domestic matters cooking, sewing (most clothing of the lower -middle classes were homemade as opposed to store bought up until World War II era) and most were simply completely clueless and disinterested in any kind of child-rearing.

 

-Also there was such a stigma and so much complete ignorance on sexuality that many people were simply unable to meet their sexual/intimacy needs outside of marriage. (again, some people today bemoan that fact as others praise it)

 

- The general economic climate was such that while an 18 year old man could make pretty much as good of a living as a 35 year old man, perhaps even more as he could physically work harder and longer as there was no 40 hour work weeks. People worked from sun up to sun down 6 days a week or as long as their bosses told them to at the dawn of the industrial age.

 

However, very few common individual man nor common individual woman had the economic status to own and operate their own home by themselves and it often took the combine incomes and work efforts of two or more people to buy/build, operate and maintain a home.

 

- physiologically people have changed too. Women often married at mid teens but didn't reach fertility until late teens.

 

- Average life expectancy was lower. In New Testiment times, "till death do us part" meant living together another 20 years, not another 60.

 

Add all those up and it's not really that marriage is any less sacred, it's just that divorce is a lot more practical. Divorce just doesn't have the same negative impact on people's lives that it once did and so people do not wait for such extreme circumstances to pull the ejection handle.

 

In days of yore, if a woman was divorced she was socially outcast and often untouchable. And unless her husband was actually wealthy, her standard of living went down considerably and in many cases to below poverty levels. She would have also been tasked with almost 100% of child custody and child rearing alone.

 

Men didn't fair a whole lot better. While they may not have had the same social stigma and may have still been able to remarry. Since many of the wives were not working outside the home and did not have outside incomes, alimony and child support also put men at great financial hardship and even poverty post divorce.

 

And while child custody was almost always given to the mother, many fathers still missed their children in their home but at the same time were completely overwhelmed and over their heads when they did have their children during their custodial visitations.

 

Divorce just simply doesn't suck as much today as it did back in the day. And the reason it doesn't suck as much as people back then got future generations convinced that it shouldn't suck so much and so these so-called, "children of divorce" are the ones that have modernized and adapted the divorce laws and the equality and opportunities for both men and women so that divorce doesn't have to suck so bad for everyone.

 

If people want to bitch about the divorce rate and moan that grandpa and grandma were married for 60 years they can. But they seem to forget that there were a lot of grandparents that were completely miserable and dysfunctional for at least 50 of those years.

[It-is-what-it-is.]

Slightly different take...a number of years ago, my sister was divorcing...again..and my father was giving her the "you are failing the family because you are the only divorced family member" lectures.

 

Oddly, I had been doing genealogy so shared with the fam that, with the exception of our parents and one set of grandparents most marriages in every single generation going back hundreds of years had multiple marriages. True, most were due to deaths, but those folks also had much shorter life expectancy. We had a good number of divorces back in the early American history due to abandonment. So change occurred in a more "natural" way.

 

Depending on your age and the impact of your own FOO impacts you may also have innate perceptions of normal relationships that are the same or unique from siblings. (E.g. My sister's multi marriage to my long term one.)

 

I really agree that the younger generations are more and more self centered..and not in an entirely good and empowered way. I think that it's much harder to work through a problem if you feel entitled to happiness all the time, to the exclusion of everyone else. I think giving up IS easier and more accepted...

 

I also agree with the posters who sited technology - remember some of what causes marriages to become unsatisfactory is the lack of investment. So yeah, 3 channels on the tv, if you had a tv. Phones with a cord, all these things play into forcing to a certain extent some intimacy.

 

But don't assume that staying in a marriage only happens cause there are no better options. Happily married couples exist. And I mean real life happiness which includes riding through and supporting through the ups and downs (better for worse) but working though it. Not just suffering it.

 

I believe that monogamous marriages are not the answer for everyone. Neither is polyamory or open relationships or whatever.

 

I think what feels like the demise of traditional marriage has lots of inputs, lots of variations, including population growth, economic factors and changing values.

 

But for some folks...traditional monogomy is the right fit, for others it never would have been.

[Clockwork]

Alright, so I see people think there was more of a stigma in yesteryear to divorce. Truth is, there was. But there is a reason to that you say "for richer and poorer" in the vows. It isn't always a fantasy. There are long stretches where it can be rough but the only people that can have an impact on whether or not you divorce are the two people in the marriage. Bottom line is despite the fact that the world has changed and women's roles have changed, the truth is there is more of a "quick fix" mentality.

 

We heat up our food in the microwave, we get fast food at the drive thru, we get mad when our internet is slow. Yet what is better, a slow cooked steak or a fast cheeseburger? The marriage is the slow cooked steak in my opinion. But we don't always have the patience for it and think the grass is greener on the other side.

 

How many people have a "Kardashian" or "Jersey Shore" mentality of how you treat the other person in your marriage? There will be many marriages in the future, if not already, that will be flooded with people who think and act this way because it is perceived as normal.

[affairaddict]

I'm group 3. I honestly don't believe in marriage and do not understand why people bother. It rarely works. I know it's cynical but I actually almost feel sorry for people entering it. A lot of the time it's for the big day and the security for the bride "I'm a mrs" no one stays faithful anymore or it ends up brother and sister type.

 

Tell me I'm wrong?

[pink_sugar]

In older generations, people were more likely to stay in unhappy marriage because it was frowned upon to divorce. It is still that way in some cultures today. It's not that everyone worked it out and ended up happy, but more people stayed in unhappy marriages than they do today. So when the trend of divorce happened and as it became more socially acceptable, more people started doing it. I don't think either way is wrong, but no one should have to suffer in an unhappy marriage.